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Thread: No Seniors, No Juniors - Just People of No Rank

  1. #1

    No Seniors, No Juniors - Just People of No Rank

    Hi Guys,

    Our forum software, for reasons that nobody can remember, was labeling folks as "senior" members after a certain number of posts. We actually have no "junior" or "senior" members here, so Seimyo fixed that for us. Everybody is a "member"

    We still do have the Priests marked such, but please remember that "Priests" here are in no way "senior". They are, if anything, in a role of service, and should be humble in being so. Jukai or Priest Ordination does not place someone above (perhaps a bit below in service to all Sentient Beings). So, I think perhaps all our members are "senior" and priests are "junior." I wrote this to someone else today who asked what it meant to be a Priest ...

    It is primarily a position of service. We are the crew on the ship, the waiters in the Buddha restaurant, the nurses in the hospital. It should be a calling, from a sense of duty.

    In our Lineage, we primarily emphasize an unbroken wholeness between work, family, Zen Practice and priesthood. We are not big on Ceremonies compared to most Lineages. Still, our priests spend several years study the history, traditions, basic (very) ceremony and Teachings of the Soto Zen Way because it is the duty of each generation to pass it on to the next.
    In our Lineage, the hard borders between Priest and Lay, parent and spouse, worker and minister, drop away and we fully actuate each. We just mark the title so people know who is who, who is the honored guest and who is the kitchen staff.

    (We also have the designation "Friend of Treeleaf" for our dear friends over at the Blue Mountain, who are always welcome here. )

    Let us all be senior and junior to each other at once! Students teach teachers as teachers help students. Master Nanquan once said that, were he to meet a child of three years old who could teach him, he would become the child’s pupil, and if he were to meet someone over a hundred years old whom he could teach, then he would teach that person. That's the right attitude! Master Rinzai spoke of the "True Person of No Rank". We are all, always Beginners. A moment of sitting is a moment of Buddha.

    In any event, we still need to be careful and avoid this from Orwell's Animal Farm ...


    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    Last edited by Jundo; 01-21-2015 at 06:22 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  2. #2
    Very nice. Do appreciate the loose distinctions here. And right right, sometimes compare the Bodhisattva path to shoveling dung haha. A life of service. What else can we do when we feel the dukkha at large?

    Gassho, John
    Sat Today

  3. #3
    Sniff. The answer answered one of my Fugen-priest-interview questions!
    Wikipedia said, a priest was "a mediator between a deity and a layperson". (Eastern religions excluded.)
    So a priest is a busy scholar first, then a good teacher (to answer all my stupid questions), a very good teacher then, and the character of a koan if he's a priest and a member like all.
    Thanks to all hands on board.

    Gassho,
    Danny
    #sattoday

  4. #4
    _/\_

    #sattoday
    合掌 仁道 生開 - gassho, Jindo Shokai "Open to life in a benevolent way"
    日々是好日 【nichi nichi korego nichi】Every Day is a Good Day!!

  5. #5
    Deep bows

    Daizan
    sattoday

  6. #6
    All this sitting and I still end up in the wrong position!?

    Senior, Junior, Janitor all alike, but I did just have a thought the other night especially considering some of the recent events on the forum with one member getting in an accident and another bowing out due to personal problems. I wonder if it would not be a bad idea for someone to be retaining some actual contact information for members. It occurred to me that if something happened to me and I was unable to use a computer, no one here would have any clue where I went or that I was in any way in trouble. Even my wife probably wouldn't know how to inform anyone. Wouldn't it be a good idea for us to be able to at least call people or something if they suddenly are gone?

    Gassho
    Ishin

    Sat Today

  7. #7
    Thank you Jundo. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

    SatToday

  8. #8
    Many thanks to all on this "ship" :-)

    Gassho,
    Meredith

    SatToday

  9. #9
    Ishin,

    We do have such a system, but it only works if people do it:

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...g-Alert-System

    Gassho,
    Dosho

    Sat today

    Quote Originally Posted by Ishin View Post
    All this sitting and I still end up in the wrong position!?

    Senior, Junior, Janitor all alike, but I did just have a thought the other night especially considering some of the recent events on the forum with one member getting in an accident and another bowing out due to personal problems. I wonder if it would not be a bad idea for someone to be retaining some actual contact information for members. It occurred to me that if something happened to me and I was unable to use a computer, no one here would have any clue where I went or that I was in any way in trouble. Even my wife probably wouldn't know how to inform anyone. Wouldn't it be a good idea for us to be able to at least call people or something if they suddenly are gone?

    Gassho
    Ishin

    Sat Today

  10. #10
    Hello,

    Melted.

    Thank you.


    Gassho,
    Myosha sat today
    "Recognize suffering, remove suffering." - Shakyamuni Buddha when asked, "Uhm . . .what?"

  11. #11
    Funny how just a word (senior or junior) can provoke a thought in one's head to give importance to status making senior better than junior. I remember when I first saw this I wondered how many posts will it take to increase one's status lol. A good lesson for me. A good lesson to always be a beginner

    Gassho,

    Jiken

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Danny B View Post
    Sniff. The answer answered one of my Fugen-priest-interview questions!
    Wikipedia said, a priest was "a mediator between a deity and a layperson". (Eastern religions excluded.)
    So a priest is a busy scholar first, then a good teacher (to answer all my stupid questions), a very good teacher then, and the character of a koan if he's a priest and a member like all.
    Thanks to all hands on board.

    Gassho,
    Danny
    #sattoday
    Actually, "priest" and "monk" are Christian terms that do not always fit, and were stuck on when Westerners came to Asia in the 19th century. The term I very much care for regarding Zen clergy might be closer to "Sangha Friend".

    Below is my usual comment about all these names (plus others like Roshi and such) ...

    Gassho, J

    ====================

    ------------------------------------

    What is the meaning of Master, Reverend, Osho, Roshi (and "Sensei" too)?

    In Japanese Soto, "Roshi" just means literally an "Old Teacher" and does not imply any particular rank or attainment beyond being a fully ordained priest who one wants to refer to with some respect due to age or the like (the Rinzai folks use the term in a much more specific way ... see this Wiki for more details).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C5%8Dshi

    Soko Morinaga, a well respected Japanese Soto Zen teacher, once famously said, "A roshi is anyone who calls himself a roshi and can get other people to do the same."

    The Sensei/Roshi ranking found in some Western Sangha is largely an American invention. A "Sensei" in Japan is a general title that can be applied to anyone from a school teacher, to a lawyer or doctor, to a politician. It is NOT a common title in the Zen world in Japan to denote some particular rank or attainment, and its use in the West for Zen teachers is pretty much a complete Western invention. There is no sense in Japan or China that "Sensei" is a lower rank, or less attained than a "Roshi". [ONE WOULD NEVER CALL THEMSELF "ROSHI" AS SOME TEACHERS DO, and to do so is even considered to be in poor taste ... rather like "His Honor" the judge calling himself "My Honor".] From a Japanese language/cultural point of view, it is rather amusing that in the West teachers are making artificial ranks based on those terms, or calling themself by such title.

    In the rules of the Soto-shu in Japan, an "Osho" is anyone who has received Dharma Transmission (plus has done all the proper paperwork, ceremonies, and paid the needed fees to Soto-shu). Again, the Rinzai folks define the term a little differently. The term "Osho" comes from the Indian "acharya", which is a guide or instructor in religious matters.

    In my view, "master" is someone with some "mastery" in an art or tradition to pass on and pass down ... from carpentry to medicine to martial arts to Zen Buddhary. It need not mean the "master" is perfect (one can be a "master carpenter", yet not every corner will always be smooth; a "master surgeon" cannot cure every patient, and even the most gifted may sometimes make a bad cut). However, one should be pretty darn skilled.

    "Reverend" is a nice general western term to refer to clergy or a minister.

    By the way, "monk" and "priest" are both very imperfect names. The words "monk" and "priest" do not really work as good translations of the Japanese terms, and were picked, obviously, from the Judeo-Christian vocabulary of Western missionaries in the 19th century. "Priest" carries the feeling of working some power to intervene with God/the Spirits, and most Zen "monks" in Japan now only reside in monasteries maintaining celibacy for short periods as part of their training ... so both words are not good fits (except when the person is actually residing in a monastery and might be described then as a "monk". Of course, many "Zen priests" in Japan and China do reside in temples in which they are largely concerned with performing funeral and other ceremonies for parishioners to appease the spirits, bring good fortune or the like. In such case, "priest" is not inaccurate to describe such folks.)

    In my view, the best translations might be "Companion" "Guide" "Teacher" or even "Rabbi (my favorite, which also means "Teacher")".

    A very nice old term for a Buddhist teacher used in China is "shanzhishi" = a "good wise friend" (善知識, Sanskrit kalyanamitra.)

    I often use "Zen clergy" or "teacher" or "minister". One of the many Japanese terms usually (and awkwardly) translated as "monk/priest" in English is actually closer to "Sangha companion" , which I care for very much ... 僧侶 ("Soryo", the first kanji derives from the "san" of Sanskrit sangha = community, and the second means companion)

    So "Buddhist companion" or "Sangha Friend and Companion" may be the most accurate.

    BOTTOM LINE: In my case, just call me Jundo or or Rev. Jundo (or Rabbi) or "Hey You" or 'Teach or Cap'n Jundo. Maybe, in a few years, you can start calling me Admiral Jundo. Call me Roshi or Sensei or "Whatsya-say?". I like "Dharma Friend". My father from the Bronx used to say, "Call me whatever, just don't call me late for dinner"

    A rose by any other name is still a rose. A lemon by another name is still a lemon.


    Gassho, Jundo
    Last edited by Jundo; 01-21-2015 at 05:07 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Daido View Post
    Funny how just a word (senior or junior) can provoke a thought in one's head to give importance to status making senior better than junior. I remember when I first saw this I wondered how many posts will it take to increase one's status lol. A good lesson for me. A good lesson to always be a beginner

    Gassho,

    Jiken
    Oh so true Jiken. Always a good lesson. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

    SatToday

  14. #14
    Treeleaf Unsui / Engineer Sekishi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Thank you for this clarification. You are a good wise friend Cap'n Jundo.

    Gassho,
    Sekishi
    #sattoday
    sekishi
    石志

    He/him. As a novice priest-in-training, this is simply an expression of my opinion. Please take it with a grain of salt.

  15. #15
    Thank you for the explanation, Rebbe Jim!
    I think "Dharma Friend" is very moving, it can be so much.
    And still, also a rose that cannot be put into a vase

    Gassho,
    Danny
    #sattoday

  16. #16
    (Back to the beginning of this thread) Yes, waiters in the Buddha restaurant: I once heard someone quip that wearing a rakusu is actually like tying on an apron, as in, "I'm here to serve. How can I make your life more wonderful today?"

    =) Shinzan
    sattoday

  17. #17
    That's nice, Shinzan.

    Gassho

    Sat today
    求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
    I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

  18. #18
    I was hoping to eventually achieve the title of Senior Clown --- sigh. lol

    Gassho,

    Risho
    -sattoday

  19. #19
    From a CEO of a large successful multinational company

    It is nice to be important but it is more important to be nice
    m

    Sat 2-day

  20. #20
    good move; i was about to raise this a few days back

    should we also stop displaying number of posts? or make them private (visible only to the account holder)

    Gassho,
    Sam Sat Today

  21. #21

    No Seniors, No Juniors - Just People of No Rank

    Cap'n Jundo somehow has a very nice ring to it - grin
    I feel a song coming up... Might write it tomorrow!

    Gassho

    Ongen / vincent

    Sat Today


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Ongen; 01-21-2015 at 09:05 PM.
    Ongen (音源) - Sound Source

  22. #22
    Thank you Jundo for clarifying to vocabulary. Growing up in a Judeo-Christian culture can sometimes cause confusion when it comes to the nature of a Buddhist community.

    Gassho

    Sat Today

  23. #23
    Thanks Jundo, very interesting thread. I have two questions, maybe they have been already answered in another thread, if so, please point me to the right direction:

    1.How is a regular day in the life of a Zen Monk here at our Sangha?
    2. Im having some sort of a " calling " to expand my dharma practice horizons, by helping others with my practice and the little stuff I know, not know, and becoming a monk feels right and appears to me like a powerful tool for being of service to others, anyone have any comments on this? anyone have felt the same way before?

    Thanks and Gassho.

    #SatToday (twice )
    Dancing between stillness and motion I find peace.

  24. #24

    No Seniors, No Juniors - Just People of No Rank

    "How is a regular day in the life of a Zen Monk here at our Sangha?"

    Perhaps this will give you some idea:

    630A: Wake up - bring wife coffee (a wonderful ritual of twenty four years - our courtship was all about coffee and oreos) and wake sons up for school - check email and Treeleaf.
    700A: Zazen.
    815A: Drop youngest son at school
    900A-100P: Work with morning clients: young men with behavioral issues and physical disabilities - social skills, homework, physical activities
    100P-230P: Home for lunch; some form of exercise; usually practice kata or work outside/go for bike ride. Skype time for Treeleaf.
    300P-700P: Afternoon/evening clients
    730-930P (T, TH nights, Sunday AM): teach uechi ryu - my practice philosophy is "the fist and zen are one"
    930P - make tea for my wife; check treeleaf, skype time.
    1000P: Zazen
    1100P-1200A: read philosophy/buddhist scripture when house is quiet; do some writing

    I strive to live a life where my practice, work and daily activities (including martial arts, family life, and home duties) are seamless and represent my ministry in some way. Shortly following ordination, I switched careers into the social work/services area and spend time in the behavioral health area, working with adolescent males. I am pursuing professional certification and an MSW in this field (sponsored by my employer). I teach martial arts to a small group of students three times a week. On weekends I work one day and spend Sunday with my family. I am switching away from the Saturday work schedule in order to attend weekly zazenkai at Great River Zendo with Zenshin Tim Buckley. I am spending more time there, and Tim is giving me on-the-job training in zendo roles/management and performing/supporting services.

    Evenings and weekends are available for skype meetings with Treeleafers, and Unsui. Sunday morning for Dokusan with Jundo. One Sunday per month I now travel to Boston to train with my Uechi sensei. I am preparing for eighth dan examination (sometime in the next two years). As the weather warms up and the sun returns, I get up early to get some time in the water / kayak. In season I keep a kayak on my car so I can put in whenever the opportunity presents itself. I volunteer with Maine Island Trail Association for daylong island cleanups in the spring and fall, and deliver food to the Midcoast Hunger Prevention Program with my youngest son once per week.

    Monks at Treeleaf also have regular homework/training assignments given by Jundo, and roles/jobs in the Sangha much like monks in more traditional monasteries. The topic of training content for Treeleaf Unsui is a separate question/topic and requires its own post to be fully and properly addressed. Here I am trying to answer the question of a regular day in the life of a Treeleaf 'monk.'

    This is not a traditional monastic schedule or existence. There are many ways to be a priest - the most important thing I have learned is not to try to live up to someone else's image of what a priest is - but instead to give meaning to my own priesthood in the way I live my life and serve my family, community, and Sangha.

    Hope this gives you some insight - my brothers may wish to add their own 'snapshots'

    The moral of the story is that there is no such thing as a regular day!

    "becoming a monk feels right and appears to me like a powerful tool for being of service to others"

    I have long wondered how to introduce my karate students to zen practice - they are after all one and the same - but in the West this is not an easy relationship to convey. The manner I have chosen to encourage my students in this direction is by not charging a fee for uechi class, but instead by requiring them to perform community service in a role of their choice (and we periodically discuss this service). Needless to say, I do not have many students, but I do have very committed ones.

    You don't need to be a monk to be of service to others, but it certainly is a powerful commitment that deepens our purpose and lends urgency to our work. It is the direction I have chosen!

    Deep bows
    Yugen
    Last edited by Yugen; 01-22-2015 at 02:53 AM.

  25. #25

    No Seniors, No Juniors - Just People of No Rank

    Thank you Yugen. I was kind of wondering what is like


    ..sat2day

  26. #26
    Kyotai
    Guest
    Wonderful Yugen. I was somewhat curious about the teacher student relationship here at treeleaf myself. Thank you and best of luck in training for your 8th Dan exam.

    Gassho Kyotai
    Sat today

  27. #27

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Yugen View Post
    "becoming a monk feels right and appears to me like a powerful tool for being of service to others"
    Thank you Yugen, wonderful expression. And I too feel the exact same way! =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

    SatToday

  29. #29
    Ah! thanks Yugen! much clarifying. And yes, I agree, I do not need to be a monk to be of service to others, in fact,I already put some effort on doing that in the ways I can: in my everyday life with co-workers, family and friends, leading a small free of charge dharma/meditation group on wednesdays here on my city, teaching tai chi every saturday as dynamic meditation and a martial art full of zen-mind and charging a very low fee to some students, charging none to others who cant pay, organising meditation workshops, having a blog about meditation, spiritual practice and wellness...but somehow...I feel that I can do more or aim my efforts better, with my practice and the way I serve others, getting more committed to doing that feels natural and almost necessary.

    I also have a strange feeling of "needing to belong" to something bigger than me and my practice, that is our Sangha but I feel I need to do some more, dont know if Im making sense on this (ja ja). I hope I am.

    Along with all that I also realize that after 20 years of practice, Im only grasping how to apply dharma to the everyday life that I have tons to learn yet and Im beginning to think that Im no position to teach no one, that maybe my way of serving others is just simply being me and practicing dharma the best way I can in my life.

    Or Probably is just my 40 year crisis arising early..

    Anyway, any other thoughts on this guys? I really appreciate your comments, cause as you can imagine, it is only here and with you where I can discuss this stuff. Besides to talking to Kyonin of course, but I want to have a wider look on this.

    Thanks and Gassho.

    #SatToday
    Last edited by kidbuda; 01-22-2015 at 05:35 AM.
    Dancing between stillness and motion I find peace.

  30. #30
    Thank you, Kidbuda, I too think you have found a wonderful expression for your dedication.

    Yugen, thank you for putting some of the jigsaw parts together.

    Gassho,
    Danny

    #sattoday

  31. #31
    Hi.

    Good call on the seniority removal.

    Gassho
    Meikyo
    ~ Please remember that I am very fallible.

    Gassho
    Meikyo

  32. #32
    A regular day in my life:

    Get up and literally say "I feel grateful for waking up one more day".

    Make coffee.

    Watch Conan's monologue to start my day with a smile.

    Read the Buddhist book in turn while I drink a big cup of coffee.

    Sit zazen for 40 minutes.

    Yoga or running.

    Work! My work is very weird these days. I spend my time online with people in my courses, writing, looking for costumers... and visiting people whom I help and listen to.

    Lunch and nap.

    Work a bit more in the afternoon.

    Late in the afternoon I spend time in Treeleaf, study my zen books and if I have time I practice a little guitar.

    And at night I spend time with the family (Sandy and the cats) and if there's time I play computer game.

    Before sleep I read.

    There's also a lot going on in between. Like small chores, cooking, going to see the kids or elders to the hospital, talk to people who need me and on Mondays I go sit to my newly created zazen group.

    I'm glad you are feeling the calling, brother. Sit more and explore how you feel about it. And let us know!

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    #SatToday
    Hondō Kyōnin
    奔道 協忍

  33. #33
    Thanks for sharing Kyonin! And Yes! Ill sit more with this "state of being" and explore more how I feel about it.

    Gassho.

    #SatToday
    Dancing between stillness and motion I find peace.

  34. #34
    I once heard someone quip that wearing a rakusu is actually like tying on an apron, as in, "I'm here to serve. ..."
    Jundo and Shinzan, you know when I work I should be working, you know?!

    But with this you really had me. My apron is ugly rubber, thrown away quickly.
    But when the tools are the significance of the work, the work the significance of saving all beings...
    Then any tool put to a good purpose (let's say, in an interpretation anyhow in the way of the precepts) is the rakusu.
    And the rakusu is all.
    This sounds quite lame, but had me busy all day long.
    No, I had enough work...

    Kyonin, thanks, I'll enter "coffee" on my list of ceremony (yep, it already is).

    Gassho,
    Danny
    #sattoday

  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Danny B View Post
    Thank you, Kidbuda, I too think you have found a wonderful expression for your dedication.

    Yugen, thank you for putting some of the jigsaw parts together.

    Gassho,
    Danny

    #sattoday
    Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I really appreciate it.
    Gassho.

    #SatToday
    Dancing between stillness and motion I find peace.

  36. #36
    I know I have heard the calling to serve. Before my marriage, I was studying toward a Bachelor's degree in Religious Studies with the intent to enter the seminary. Obviously, those plans changed . Since taking up practice and Jukai, I have found myself wishing to go further in my studies and pursue ordination. Hopefully someday I can.

    Gassho,
    Hōtetsu

    #SatToday
    Forever is so very temporary...

  37. #37
    No rank, yet it looks like everyone wants to be ordained!

    Not everyone, of course, but I'd like to think we can all behave as an unsui would, regardless.

    Gassho

    Sat today
    求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
    I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

  38. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottH View Post
    I know I have heard the calling to serve. Before my marriage, I was studying toward a Bachelor's degree in Religious Studies with the intent to enter the seminary. Obviously, those plans changed . Since taking up practice and Jukai, I have found myself wishing to go further in my studies and pursue ordination. Hopefully someday I can.

    Gassho,
    Hōtetsu

    #SatToday
    Thanks for sharing ScottH.

    Gassho.

    #SatToday
    Dancing between stillness and motion I find peace.

  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Amelia View Post
    No rank, yet it looks like everyone wants to be ordained!

    Not everyone, of course, but I'd like to think we can all behave as an unsui would, regardless.

    Gassho

    Sat today
    Jajaja! Yes! Good observation! And also yes, I too think we all can behave like an Unsui would, with or without robes.

    Gassho.

    #SatToday
    Dancing between stillness and motion I find peace.

  40. #40
    Nindo
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by kidbuda View Post
    I feel that I can do more or aim my efforts better, with my practice and the way I serve others, getting more committed to doing that feels natural and almost necessary.
    Jukai is probably a great place to start, and explore your calling in the context of the precepts.

    Gassho,
    Nindo
    sattoday

  41. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindo View Post
    Jukai is probably a great place to start, and explore your calling in the context of the precepts.

    Gassho,
    Nindo
    sattoday


    Gassho
    Meishin
    sat today

  42. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindo View Post
    Jukai is probably a great place to start, and explore your calling in the context of the precepts.

    Gassho,
    Nindo
    sattoday
    Thanks! that is the path to follow.

    Gassho

    #SatToday
    Dancing between stillness and motion I find peace.

  43. #43
    Hi Dharma friends, I fully support the idea of getting rid of all the cues that make us judge things about others. So goodbye senior and junior members and all those posts!
    Gassho
    Heisoku
    Sat today.
    Heisoku 平 息
    Every day is a journey, and the journey itself is home. (Basho)

  44. #44
    Thank you everybody for this inspirational thread,
    It was really amazing entering into the daily routine of our treeleaf monks, learning about their perspectives and motivations.
    And of course its great news to know that we all are members. I remember my time sharing with an orthodox soto Zen group in my city and if there was something that made me uncomfortable was the formality and the rigid hierarchy.
    Gassho
    Miguel
    #Sat Today

  45. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by shikantazen View Post
    good move; i was about to raise this a few days back

    should we also stop displaying number of posts? or make them private (visible only to the account holder)

    Gassho,
    Sam Sat Today
    Good suggestion. I am asking Seimyo if we can remove the visible "number of posts" (I am not sure if it is possible). Around here silence can be profound, words can say too much. (However, Dogen also frequently reminded us that silence is not good either if it is merely being tongue tied, and words can be "turning words" well spoken).

    Words and Buddhist Ideas alone are not barriers! There is a time for all words and categories to drop away. There is a time for the dropping away of words and categories right in and through words and categories.

    Dogen ... the master wordsmith ... held well expressed language to be the very essence of Buddhist Truths. For Dogen, suchness was not a matter of rejecting or embracing silence or speaking (there are right moments for each) ... but of how what is said, the well turned and turning phrase. The right words and Buddhist ideas do not simply describe Truth, but dance Truth itself, are True Dancing. The moons illuminates all things ... words no less ... and words illuminate the moon.

    Properly Illuminated words are not simply 'the finger pointing at the moon which cannot be described in words'. Enlightened words are the Very Moonlight.

    More here: http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post102273
    So, no reason to judge by either there being many words or few ... either can be right. However, no number should be placed on that.

    On the other hand, I am going to retain the "Date Joined". That actually says something and, in fact, one will find in Zen and Buddhist Temples throughout Asia, date and order of entering the monastery is very important. The fellow who entered the monastery, or was Ordained, even a day earlier gets a seat at events and meals slightly ahead of the fellow who came a day later. I think we should retain that little degree of recognition around here too.

    Scroll down here to the paragraph that contains the word "seniority" on page 208 (in fact, that whole page on differences in training methods between the West and Asia is interesting) ...

    https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=...uniors&f=false

    A Zen Teacher I know sometimes says something like, "A day of Practice is a day of Buddha. 30 years of Practice is 30 years of Buddha. There is no road, and no place to go not Buddha. Nonetheless, the fellow Practicing 30 years is probably 30 years farther down it!" We are all, always beginners ... but some folks are more experienced beginners than others. I know that "Join Date" is not a perfect measure of that by any means, but it is helpful.

    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    Last edited by Jundo; 01-23-2015 at 03:42 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  46. #46
    Hi all

    Aside from any measure of seniority, I think the date joined is useful for newcomers. If they are looking for someone who has been around here for a while to help them navigate the site or explain how things work, they can easily determine out who to ask.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    #sattoday

  47. #47
    Seimyo is having trouble with the coding to remove the "number of posts" designation. He writes ...

    This one is proving to be a taller order than expected. It would seem like theres a logical process for removing that data, but there isn't. I'll continue to look for the right code, but so far it's elusive. ... I'll continue to look.
    Gassho, Jundo

    SatToday
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  48. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    Aside from any measure of seniority, I think the date joined is useful for newcomers. If they are looking for someone who has been around here for a while to help them navigate the site or explain how things work, they can easily determine out who to ask.
    I also agree with your view Kokuu. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

    SatToday

  49. #49

    No Seniors, No Juniors - Just People of No Rank

    Hello,

    If you ask me, disclosure of number of posts and date of joining may give the impression that the member is special in some way. I for one don't want anyone to assume that I know anything about anything based upon the date of joining and amount of posts. "Newbies" may assume that my behavior is the norm around here.

    Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_
    Last edited by Jishin; 01-23-2015 at 04:09 PM.

  50. #50
    Nindo
    Guest
    I would like to make a suggestion.
    Before the number of posts column vanished from the Member directory (obviously Seimyo did something !), I pulled data on all members with 0 posts. It turns out that more than half of our 1400 members have 0 posts, and of these, the majority has not logged in for more than a year.

    I think it is great that we are open to anybody who wants to sign up and let people explore the community in their own time, until they feel they want to contribute.
    However, if somebody just got a login at some time, lost interest and hasn't shown up for months or years, then I think it is time to purge (delete) such members.

    A side benefit of a purge may be that some common first names would become available again as user names.

    Jundo, please let me know what you think about this.

    Gassho
    Nindo
    sattoday

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