The birds have vanished down the sky.
Now the last cloud drains away.
We sit together, the mountain and me,
until only the mountain remains.
--Li Po
_|sat2day|_
The birds have vanished down the sky.
Now the last cloud drains away.
We sit together, the mountain and me,
until only the mountain remains.
--Li Po
_|sat2day|_
I believe there is a risk of being caught in semantics. Just do not grab thoughts. If finding oneself caught in trains of thought, open the hand and ungrab. Sometimes thoughts will come, sometimes not. Do not chase after them, do not grab on, neither try to chase away.Originally Posted by shikantazen
A Light manifests that shines through both thoughts and their absence and all the dichotomies of this World. Sit as the mirror which holds both thoughts and no thought, love and hate, good and bad, beautiful and ugly and all the "this and thats" of the world without judgement, resistance or division.
In fact, the mirror even holds all small human judgement or neutrality, resistance vs. yielding, division and unity without judgement, resistance and division! So we speak, for example, of a kind of (big "N&J") "Non-Judgement" that sweeps in and holds even both our times of small human judgement and small human neutrality. The result is that the judgments, frictions and resistances of this world and ordinary life which typically fill our human minds may remain ... yet simultaneously not remain and never did... and thus are present yet wholly changed.
For example, I saw a horrible story in the news this morning of a father who killed a child. It is sickening, I am so saddened, I am so sad for the little child. This ordinary world is so ugly sometimes, and people's anger and delusion are to be condemned. As a human being, I never want to lose my power of judgement of good and bad, and this is simply bad ... evil. I will ALWAYS resist and be heartbroken by such violence, I will never accept (nor would I want to accept and tolerate such violence to children, because I cherish my humanity). But at the same timeless time, I sit as the mirror of Wisdom and Compassion, in radical Non-Judgement and Non-Resistance. In this mirror, all is passing visions ... all is light ... and there is never a father to do violence, no child apart, nor even death (no kiddin', for there is only Mirror, whole and still. And each thing and event of this life is a mirror like drop reflected all the other things and events of this life). Nonetheless, there is also father and child and death ... suffering and loss. ALL AT ONCE, AS ONE.
I can only describe the outcome as death no death, sadness and (Big J) Joy, broken pieces, broken heart, shattered lives as simultaneously Heart and Mirror Unbreakable.
That is good. The only point is that the "method" is that there is no "method". The mirror has no "method" to be the mirror, but just sits as mirror. The mirror does not have a method or goal to become the mirror. Thus, our "method" is to sit dropping all methods and goals. If we have a method or goal to become mirrorlike, we make it as if we are standing apart from the mirror (we are never in actuality, although we feel so).Now coming to the “Sitting in Wholeness” part. This is how I understand it. Despite having a method and intent, if we start judging our Zazen (basing on how it is going) or create a division (that it is Zazen only the time we are aware and all other caught-up time is non-Zazen and hence not good) then it is not whole anymore. Despite doing our best to stay with the method we need to keep away all judgments and thoughts like “that there is a me doing Zazen and this me needs something out of Zazen and hence the practice needs to go good”
Capiche?
Ugrok ...
In Emptiness, the passing show of the mirror, all is constantly changing, nothing to "hang one's hat on". Do not cling to the passing show.there is ultimately nothing you can, so to speak, "hang your hat on", so there is nothing you should cling to. ... For me, as i understand it nowadays, the point is not to "wake up from thought", it's about getting in a place where you don't cling to anything : thoughts, perceptions, whatever.
And yet, and yet, on Buddha Mirror Bright, one can hang one's hat.
Gassho, J
PS - This is the horrible story, a father racked by delusion. This is the Koan we sit as. I NEVER want to accept such tragedy (I never will) ... yet Buddha Eye. Mirror Mind, Big "A" Accepts All Passing Reflections, even Accepting for me that I will never ever accept, Accepting even my nonacceptance, revulsion and sadness ...
http://news.yahoo.com/police-girl-5-...083855580.html
Last edited by Jundo; 01-09-2015 at 05:25 AM.
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
Thanks Jundo
In essence it is a non-manipulative, non-judgmental, no-expectations sitting. Whatever happens in sitting is okay (Non-Judgmental) and we get nothing from sitting (no expectations).
I am good thus far. Let us now add the "thoughts" piece.
We are introducing rules now. Something that is supposed to happen (and not supposed to happen) during Zazen. Manipulating our Zazen slightly. Redirecting it gently from the "natural" course to what we want it to be.
"don't grab on to thoughts. if you find yourself caught up then ungrab". don't you think adding a rule like this adds judgments to the non-judgmental sitting? whether we want it or not isn't there a judgment when we grab on (oh this is not supposed to happen). "Whatever happens in sitting is okay" has now become "Whatever happens in sitting is okay except getting caught up".
Instead of the above ungrab instruction, why not this "alternate" instruction/non-instruction: "In sitting, getting caught up and coming back to awareness happens by itself. don't worry about either. we don't sit and try to intentionally/purposefully think about something. Other than that whatever "getting caught up and coming back" that is naturally happening is fine. we don't judge or worry about it."
If I understand you correctly, you (and most zen teachers) don't agree with the alternate instruction above. You are more leaning towards the first one. There needs to be a clear intent to return and not to grab on. I feel many students who are asked to sit non-judgmentally cannot also add in the not-grab on rule strictly; when they try they at best go toward the "alternate" instruction route.
I feel you cannot do both. Sit non-judgmentally, non-manipulatively and then have a slight rule not to grab on (or ungrab when caught up). They both are conflicting. I either have to sit with clear intent to return and be busy with that OR I sit non-judgmentally (not worry about getting caught up too as mentioned in "alternate" instruction)
Gassho,
Sam
Sat Today
There must be something hard about all this, otherwise it would be simple and this thread would not be as long as it is
Sat Today
Sat today
Self-fulfilling prophecy, Tony?
Take care.
Gassho,
Danny
#sattoday
Sam,
For me, this is seldom the case. "In sitting, getting caught up and coming back to awareness" does NOT happen by itself. Oftentimes, 'getting caught up' simply leads into getting caught up further. A thought 'seeds' itself, then takes root, then an internal conversation begins. All of this leading back to 'self'. I need to have that mechanism of ungrasping or letting go of the thought. But that's just me; we all have our own experiences...
Gassho,
Bryson
sat today
Thanks Jundo, Sam and everyone for the further input. There is something i'd like to talk about, as it seems to happen for me this way during sitting :
To "ungrab" your thoughts, you first have to notice that you are caught in thoughts. Maybe the question should be "how do you notice ?" and / or "do YOU really notice ?". Or even "Is there someone who notices ?" What i mean is that the noticing of "us being caught in thoughts", cannot be a result of intention. It's not something of our doing. The noticing just happens, the train of thoughts just stops as everything else in our experience that just comes and goes, and then we believe WE "got out". But we did not : it just happens ! So, as the noticing is, anyway, totally beyond our conscious intention, there should be no intention at all regarding thoughts while sitting. Or we can believe there is intention, if we want, but this does not change a thing. So why bother, ahah !
Gassho,
Ugrok
Sat today
No.There must be something hard about all this, otherwise it would be simple and this thread would not be as long as it is
Sat Today
Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_
Last edited by Jishin; 01-09-2015 at 11:22 AM.
...hmmm....clearly there is thought Jishin - LOTS of discussion about this extremely simple thing.
I (sometimes) can appreciate your salient replies - but sometimes the reality outweighs them
"...follow your breath and when the mind strays return to it again and again..." = Simple
"...sit and don't think about your thoughts....don't not think about them either....don't allow them to distract you (from what?)...just sit and be present....don't...don't...don't...don't........." = IMO Extremely complex
Sat today
No....hmmm....clearly there is thought Jishin - LOTS of discussion about this extremely simple thing.
I (sometimes) can appreciate your salient replies - but sometimes the reality outweighs them
"...follow your breath and when the mind strays return to it again and again..." = Simple
"...sit and don't think about your thoughts....don't not think about them either....don't allow them to distract you (from what?)...just sit and be present....don't...don't...don't...don't........." = IMO Extremely complex
Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_
...and there you have it...I rest my case!
Sat Today
Sat today
No. No. No. No. No...
Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_
Last edited by Jishin; 01-09-2015 at 12:19 PM.
Nah, doesn't work Jishin.....sorry - I by far prefer Jundo's (and others) insight and patience!No. No. No. No. No...
Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_
...here, let me save you the time
No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.........................
I am off for a pint....simple!
Sat today
Yes!Nah, doesn't work Jishin.....sorry - I by far prefer Jundo's (and others) insight and patience!
...here, let me save you the time
No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.........................
I am off for a pint
Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_
The sitting is easy. Capturing it in words.... there lies the problem!There must be something hard about all this, otherwise it would be simple and this thread would not be as long as it is
Don't let all of the flowery language around shikantaza make you think it is something complex. It really isn't.
The mind, however, can often make it seem so.
Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday
Well put ugrok; Those were exactly my thoughts till a few months back. But without intention (and/or an object) it seems the noticing will be much lesser. We might think we are noticing and coming back fine but in reality we are moving from one thought-chain to another without really letting go (just like what Bryson says). My alternate instruction is exactly what you are describing. I am asking noticing happens anyway, why have an additional instruction to ungrab or let go? But Zen teachers seem to think otherwise and I believe they must be correct
With this new rule, it has become difficult for me to sit non-judgmentally. I feel you cannot do both. Sit non-judgmentally, non-manipulatively and then have a slight rule not to grab on (or ungrab when caught up). They both are conflicting in my view. I either have to sit with clear intent to return and be busy with that OR I sit non-judgmentally (not worry about getting caught up too as mentioned in "alternate" instruction as noticing happens anyway).
Gassho,
Sam
Sat Today
Okay, i understand better what you're saying !
Or maybe zen teachers just want to give us ways to be less prisoners of thoughts, because, mostly, thoughts make us suffer. In the end they do not matter, but maybe we are and feel better when we think less. The focusing techniques sure help to "think" less. Maybe it's their only purpose, which has not to be confused with zazen itself ?
But anyway, this stuff must be highly paradoxical, as always in zen. Maybe if we people did not think so much, zen teachers would teach us to think more. Apparently Suzuki once said to a student that was confronting him on the questions of sameness and difference : "You guys are stuck on the difference side, so i teach sameness. If you would be stuck on the sameness side, i would teach difference".
Maybe our zazen should not be "this" OR "that" and we should not come to it with premade ideas but only with very simple instructions. The instructions, as given by Jundo for example, seem clear and simple enough to me : sit, and when you notice you are caught, then ungrab. Period. No big deal and no problem with that. No matter if it happens by itself or not, no matter if you question it or not. It maybe goes beyond our trying to understand ?
Yes, my thoughts too.
Tony,
Just let it happen. Don't try to figure it out for a while. It will reveal itself to you overtime. Little by little for as long as you practice. From my experience, there is no limit what it will reveal.
_|sat2day|_
Last edited by Troy; 01-09-2015 at 05:44 PM.
Hi Sam,
I think you don't get the lovely game here. Let me try again:
Yes, this is so. Yet when we truly sit free of judgment and expectation, something WONDERFUL is found and EVERYTHING is ours. In fact, you can most definitely count on that. anticipate it, plan and work for it and take it to the bank: namely, this wonderful treasure realized through dropping judgments, desires and expectations.
Yes, "whatever happens is okay". that is absolutely true. However, that DOES NOT mean that "whatever happens is okay", because sitting in "whatever happens is okay complacency" is NOT ok, and neither is it okay to judge "ok vs. not ok". Judging "ok vs not ok" is NOT ok!
Okay?
There ARE rules and proper methods to Zazen. The rules are to not get caught up in thoughts, to sit as the one perfect action in that moment, and to drop all thoughts of "rules and methods" to non-attain Buddha Mirrormind (called "non-attain" because present all along, so no reason or path to attain it). Why? Because the mirror has no "method" to be the mirror, but just sits as mirror. The mirror does not have a method or goal to become the mirror. Thus, our "method" is to sit dropping all methods and goals. If we have a method or goal to become mirrorlike, we make it as if we are standing apart from the mirror (we are never in actuality, although we feel so). Thus, the "method" is that there is no "method".We are introducing rules now. Something that is supposed to happen (and not supposed to happen) during Zazen. Manipulating our Zazen slightly. Redirecting it gently from the "natural" course to what we want it to be.
The "rule" is to drop all thought of "right Zazen" or "wrong Zazen". However, that does NOT mean that all Zazen is "right Zazen". Why? Sitting while judging "right vs. wrong Zazen" is wrong Zazen. Also, sitting while tangled up in thoughts and wallowing in emotions (especially of greed, anger and division) is wrong. A key part of not getting tangled up and wallowing, however, is to drop all thought of "right Zazen vs. wrong". Doing so is "right Zazen"!
Zazen is sitting "free of judgement". Yes, that is a judgement ... and it is also a judgment that the best way to sit "free of judgments" is to drop all judgments."don't grab on to thoughts. if you find yourself caught up then ungrab". don't you think adding a rule like this adds judgments to the non-judgmental sitting? whether we want it or not isn't there a judgment when we grab on (oh this is not supposed to happen). "Whatever happens in sitting is okay" has now become "Whatever happens in sitting is okay except getting caught up".
However, "dropping judgments" and sitting in a Buddha's Radical Acceptance of this beautiful-ugly world MUST NOT be confused with complacency or tired resignation. Don't think that sitting "free of judgement" is sitting "free of judgement". Far from it. When I drop all judgements, beyond right and wrong, I taste a world in which there is no father who killed his child, no child to suffer and no death. At the same time, I am filled with the judgement that these events were a sad tragedy and my heart breaks. Therefore, I might say I that I sit in radical Buddha "Non-Judgement" which simultaneously allows me, as a human being, to be filled with judgements, a kind of Judgementless-judgement.
As stated above, saying "whatever happens is okay" does not mean that "whatever crap happens is okay". The only "Truly Okay" is a radical affirmation of this life-self-world as fundamentally being "whatever happens is okay, beyond and right through the happy and the crappy without a gappy, as the light shines though". Nonetheless, sad crap happens, and that IS NOT okay! So, we have Okay-not-Okay at once!
I don't think it happens by itself, and I do worry about being caught up in thoughts/emotions and I do try to be free of thoughts. Did you believe I was saying otherwise?Instead of the above ungrab instruction, why not this "alternate" instruction/non-instruction: "In sitting, getting caught up and coming back to awareness happens by itself. don't worry about either. we don't sit and try to intentionally/purposefully think about something. Other than that whatever "getting caught up and coming back" that is naturally happening is fine. we don't judge or worry about it."
However (and this is the trick) the only way to stop being "caught up in thoughts" is to stop thinking about the thoughts, being "caught up" or "not caught up" and anything else. The best way to be free of emotions is to stop emoting, including the worry about the emotions. The best way to be "free of thoughts" is to stop trying to be free, to stop chasing freedom ... and just to rest free. In other words, the best way to be free of the annoying drip drip drip is not to try to stop thinking about the drip, but just to drop the drip. One sits with the intent to sit sincerely and with dedication, beyond having intent or no intent.
This is why you do not get it perhaps. You keep thinking in an "either/or alternative" way. Can you taste how one must sit TRANSCENDING judgments and nonjudgement, manipulation and nonmanipulation, thought and no thought, intent or no intent, etc.?I feel you cannot do both. Sit non-judgmentally, non-manipulatively and then have a slight rule not to grab on (or ungrab when caught up). They both are conflicting. I either have to sit with clear intent to return and be busy with that OR I sit non-judgmentally (not worry about getting caught up too as mentioned in "alternate" instruction)
Such is what so many of the old, classic Koans are on about.
I mean, what is there to attain if already in hand, how does one "become" Buddha? Thus, kinda good policy to stop trying to "attain" and quit striving "to become". However, that does not mean we stop trying to attain and become! Far from it, we are striving to attain non-attaining, trying to become non-becoming. The only way to "attain non-attaining" and to "become non-becoming" is to radically, to the marrow, drop all need to attain and become, realizing that which cannot be attained and ceaselessly becomes without becoming.Momonkan Case 9
興陽讓和尚、因僧問、大通智勝佛、十劫坐道場、佛法不現前、不得成佛道時如何。
A monk asked Kőyő Seijő, "Daitsű Chishő Buddha sat in zazen for ten kalpas and could not attain Buddhahood. He did not become a Buddha. How could this be?"
讓曰、其問甚諦當。
Seijő said, "Your question is quite self-explanatory."
僧云、既是坐道場、爲甚麼不得成佛道。
The monk asked, "He meditated so long; why could he not attain Buddhahood?"
讓曰、爲伊不成佛。
Seijő said, "Because he did not become a Buddha."
This is also the reason that Sekkei Harada Roshi, in that book you pointed out Sam, is so seemingly caught in contradictions page after page, talking out of both sides of his no sided mouth. On the one hand, he says,
butThese days, expressions like "making a great effort" or "wholehearted devotion" are nearly dead. The people who wrote down these records (earlier he was talking about Blue Cliff koan record) did so as a result of really grinding their bodies into powder as they exerted themselves to the utmost. Only as a result of that effort were they able to write that the self and the Dharma are one.
Just a bundle of seeming contraditions that ain't.I made every effort, always trying to be one with my sitting. I sat so single-mindedly that even in the winter I would be bathed in sweat, clenching my teeth. But I gradually realized that ... because of trying to do my best and myself and always thinking that I had to do it, there was actually a gap between Zazen and my method of sitting.
Gassho, J
SatToday
Last edited by Jundo; 01-09-2015 at 05:37 PM.
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
To much analysis!
Just ungrab the thoughts, sit Zazen as a Complete Action.
A bit like debating "do I smell that flower, how do I smell the flower, or do YOU smell the flower, is there an intention to smell the flower, is it nonjudgemental smelling, is there a conflict in smelling the flower ... ??"
Just smell the flower. This instant of smelling the flower is a Complete Action.
Gassho, J
Last edited by Jundo; 01-09-2015 at 05:30 PM.
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
Too much to read here.
Yes to the mountain.
sattoday
Thanks Jundo
Let me describe what happens in my mind. When I am asked to sit non-judgmentally, I sit with a feeling/knowing* of wholeness (whatever happens is okay; by the way judgments or not-accepting is okay too; all is buddha, all is one/whole) allowing (non-doing) everything to be as is. Then I get lost in a thought-chain. I wake up by myself. I continue to sit in that feeling/knowing of wholeness (This wholeness by the way existed even when I was lost). I get lost again. I come back. ad infinitum. May be I will have a judgment like "I am getting lost too much" but having that is okay too. Part of the whole. All one.
Is that correct? Is this what you describe? If so the waking up happens by itself, correct?. Is it just semantics? If what you are saying is different, then can you please make corrections to what I described above?
P.S. *when I say feeling, it is more like a knowing or acceptance or non-doing
Gassho,
Sam
Sat Today
Hello,
Thank you for the lesson.
Gassho,
Myosha sat today
"Recognize suffering, remove suffering." - Shakyamuni Buddha when asked, "Uhm . . .what?"
Thank you all friends for your interesting teachings and reflections. I am not sure if I am right but according to my experience it´s more important to put the emphasis on the persistence than on the technique (beyond the basic technique, I mean). I know it´s hard to overcome the mind´s fear about doing these things in a right or a wrong way. The restless mind tries to be sure that we are sitting rightly, so we can get guarantee that the final result of our meditation will be good.
But combining Joko´s readings with I learnt reading their posts and my own reflections I have learnt that there are no guarantees of success. We do as best as possible and that´s all. The final result doesn´t depend on us. So after having learnt the basics of posture, breathing and mental attitude (and of course there are lots of things that we don´t master about it), I think the really important is to persist. By the way, master Shunryu Suzuki wrote something like the lost thoughts, I imagine after you are aware again and let them go, are like fertilizers for our mind field… so at least keep fertilizing our path!!
Gassho
Miguel
#Sat Today
Sit for a solid 40 minutes in the correct posture, then immediately re-write this post.Hi everyone,
The advice we’re often given in Zazen is to sit and to merely witness thoughts rising and falling. This evokes the image of thoughts being separate from us, almost like they’re occurring in a sort of cognitive slideshow that we’re witnessing. I really struggle with this as whenever my mind quietens sufficiently to be able to o this it feels trapped in another cognitive process….I hope that makes sense.
A little like an inability to experience any sort of separation from thinking whether its calm or not – there seems to be a constant presence or dialogue sometimes whispering in my ear.
Any thoughts (no pun intended honest)!
Sat Today
Sat 2-day
m
Sat today
Sat today
I have never tried to explain this in words before, so please bear with me (it all makes sense to me, of course, as it is my experience, but it might all be white noise to everyone else...!Hi everyone,
The advice we’re often given in Zazen is to sit and to merely witness thoughts rising and falling. This evokes the image of thoughts being separate from us, almost like they’re occurring in a sort of cognitive slideshow that we’re witnessing. I really struggle with this as whenever my mind quietens sufficiently to be able to o this it feels trapped in another cognitive process….I hope that makes sense.
A little like an inability to experience any sort of separation from thinking whether its calm or not – there seems to be a constant presence or dialogue sometimes whispering in my ear.
Any thoughts (no pun intended honest)!
Sat Today)
For me, 'thoughts' are either the things that pop into my head (which might be similar to the 'presence whispering in your ear', dharmasponge...?) - you could call them 'passive' thoughts, I suppose - or they are the conversation 'I' have with 'myself' - 'active' thoughts, if you will (you know, like when you see something and say "wow; that's great", or "oh shit" or whatever the case may be. But there isn't really 'someone' you are talking to...
And I'm not talking 'thoughts during zazen' here, just the regular day-to-day 'business' going on in one's head at any given moment...
For me, the initial point of my meditative practice was to somehow 'still' that incessant babble, or to somehow find a 'space' (however short that might be) between the constant activity. The ongoing 'conversation' between 'I' and 'me' seems to be a manifestation of 'self' (or the illusion of self). Finding that moment or more of stillness or space in that conversation is as close as I can figure to an indication of the self being 'dropped' momentarily.
My 'own' voice is perhaps easier to 'ungrasp' than that one that 'whispers in your ear'. The active thought, I can sometimes actively ungrasp. With the passive thought, it is more like letting it 'pass', rather than letting it go, if that makes sense...? Let it pass like a cloud, to use some imagery with which we are probably all familiar...
Gassho,
Bryson
sat today
Hello everyone, I've been sitting zazen for about 2 years this coming up spring. I've done a lot of "splashing in the water, yelling that I am drowning" sort of zazen. My mind has always been very busy. I"m a deep thinker so sitting zazen has been a challenge for me. However, during this last Ango I committed the entire 3 months to focusing and studying zazen. And the conclusion I came to was that thoughts are just words, do not give them so much attention. I still fall off the horse, so to speak and I go back to Jundo's videos for new folks sitting zazen. It's not perfect, and that's ok. It's all practice.
Gassho,
Joyo
sat today
Last edited by Joyo; 01-10-2015 at 03:51 PM.
Hi Sam,
Yes, this sounds good. Don't worry so much how to describe or categorize this sitting, and just sit in this way.
However, ultimately, one must transcend even thoughts of "lost" or "not lost" to be totally FOUND. In fact, one is "non-finding" something (because always present even if we are blind) where one cannot be lost even when thinking one is lost (like someone in Miami looking for Miami, and thinking themself lost and far from Miami, all while in Miami. The way to find Miami in such case is not by keeping up the search, but by radically stopping and opening one's eyes).
One must drop measures of "whole" or "broken" to be completely WHOLE. This WHOLE holds all small human judgements of "whole" or "broken", and this mirror makes clear all the jagged shards of life.
Strange as it sounds, the ultimate "freedom from thoughts" is not only to not grab onto thought, or to find some quiet "space" between thoughts, but to find the Illumination and "Big S" Silence that shines right through even our noisiest thoughts. Like the expression "in this world, but not of it", there is "having thoughts but no had by them, and seeing through them too". I believe this is what Master Dogen meant by "Thinking-Non-Thinking".
I would suggest you just do what you say, and don't worry so much about how to describe this.
I think we have a strangley-wonderful way of looking at "success" and "awakening" in this Practice.
Imagine a mountain climber who deems "success" or "the goal" to be reaching some goal line of "enlightenment" or "Buddha" at the top of the mountain. Until the climber gets their, he is dissatisfied and incomplete. Many people think of their Buddhist Practice in such way.
However, true realization in this Soto Way is to realize that each step by step up the mountain is a total arrival, a "goal line" crossed again and again each moment. In fact, "Buddha" is not just at the top of the mountain, but the entire mountain ... and the mountain climber too. Each inch of the climb is complete. Nonetheless, we continue walking on and on, trying to walk this mountain and live such fact. We find that even the poison ivy and mud to slip in is "Buddha" ... but nonetheless, try to avoid those! Most folks are so lost in greed, anger and ignorance, that they cannot see that the whole mountain ... every blade of grass, the beautiful and ugly, the ups and downs ... are all Buddha Mountain.
Thus, in Shikantaza, we sit ... not with the goal to get to the top of the mountain, but in the total Wholeness of just this moment of sitting (complete with its ups and downs) ... all while not grabbing onto, and not being a prisoner of, greed, anger and divisive thinking. Simultaneously, we keep walking on and on toward the mountain top, doing are best to not fall in the mud or poison oak.
The goal is in hand, Miami is here, when we realize so.
The problem is you ... YOUR mind and feelings ... not the sitting. You strike me as a mountain climber who feels "I am just walking in circles, getting no where" because you are not seeing the wonder of the path, the fact that Buddha is ever underfoot, every footstep (and your foot too). Just stop thinking "what's the point, might as well stay in bed", and realize the wonder of the whole hike.
Gassho, J
Last edited by Jundo; 01-11-2015 at 04:39 AM.
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
Hi.
For whatever it's worth I got an aha-moment when reading through all this. It went: "Too much talk. Do not engage!"
Failed again. There and back again.
Gassho
Aske
#SAT TODAY!
~ Please remember that I am very fallible.
Gassho
Meikyo
Sangha,
Wow! Awesome discussion. I go off and sit under a tree for a few years and this is what was unfolding
Anyway Tony, if you stick with Shikantaza, or bring passion to it, these things sort themselves out. If not, another type of "meditation" might suit you more, like Hua Tou.
Gassho, John
Sat Today
I do sit, for an hour every morning....have done since my Theravadin days. It's the 'practice' of Shikantaza that eludes me. Just sitting feels like I am just sitting...like before I got on the cushion I was just laying....no difference then why bother? If there is a difference what is it? That difference is apparently not what I should be doing.
Sat today
Hi Sam
Welcome to our soup. The purpose of my post was to establish if you were subject to any significant influence from Zazen. I did say rewrite immediately after sitting. I was genuinely interested to know what the result may be. Do you feel like writing anything immediately after an hour sit? If not, then you have your answer.
According to my experience and reports from others, it is clear that Zazen has varying degrees of physio/psychological influence over each of us. You may be one where you experience no noticeable change.
The notable characteristic that distinguishes Zen meditation from others is the high emphasis on posture. There is a consensus among a very large majority of living and historical teachers on what this posture should ideally be. Zazen has a very important physical component to, without which we may as well be following any other system. As relayed to me, Shikantaza requires particular attention to posture.
Adopt the posture, practice every day, and Zazen will resolve - or rather dissolve - your questions.
Some thoughts from just now.
M
Sat 2-day
I would challenge you a bit there, Michael, if you are referring specifically to the Lotus. Not if you mean a balanced posture in general. A balanced, fluid posture is very important in sitting, but not a particular posture. The Japanese have a tendency to fetishize the Lotus Posture over all others. This came up earlier in the thread. Much of that is cultural, as Japanese culture tends to be rather more focused on attaining "THE proper" form in many activities than some other folks.
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post113821
I very much recommend (with a few minor cautions) to you and everyone this very good book by The Posture of Mediation by Will Johnson:
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...-OF-MEDITATION
He recommends that ...
Gassho, Jwe each have to experiment with our own self and make small adjustments to find (within certain rules) the posture "right for my particular body" (one size does not fit all). Further, sitting is not rigid and fixed, but always subtly fluid and changing, such that the posture at the start of a sitting period will not be precisely the same as at the end (or on different days!).
For this reason, the author presents a philosophy of sitting, and a series of exercises, to help each of us find our "sweet spot" (again, a "sweet spot" that is not stagnant, but needs to flow and change even during one sitting period). It is based on finding (1) an alignment of the body (head, neck, spine, buttocks, legs) that is balanced and in line with gravity (2) relaxed, yet (3) resilient. YOU KNOW IT WHEN YOU FEEL IT. Better said ... when the body feels right, and when the body feels balanced and "drops from mind" (becomes no longer a distraction), it probably is right and balanced.
SatToday!
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
Thank you for the response Jundo. I did not elaborate more on this posture issue as I don't like using too many words. The consensus I referred to most usually results in a very similar posture based around the principles outlined in your above quote. I was not referring to the very erect rigid and tense posture we see in some historical photos. I would have added that most of us need help to establish posture in the beginning. We can easily find many images of other systems where the the trainee is round-backed and slumped forward. A key word in the above quote is resilience. Is it not fair to say that a good posture is one that we can maintain (within reason) and forget?For this reason, the author presents a philosophy of sitting, and a series of exercises, to help each of us find our "sweet spot" (again, a "sweet spot" that is not stagnant, but needs to flow and change even during one sitting period). It is based on finding (1) an alignment of the body (head, neck, spine, buttocks, legs) that is balanced and in line with gravity (2) relaxed, yet (3) resilient.
In my own case, Zazen has a significant and dependable influence - every sit. I know that this is due to posture. When a teacher says to me that posture is particularity important in the practice of Shikantaza, I believe her - just as I believe the historical documents saying the same thing. This was the point I was making to Sam - not exactly how that posture should be. I do re-establish my posture a couple of times during a sit. The point made about personalising the posture (to a point) in the quote is important IOM. One teacher I know of is very conscious of different physiologies and takes this into account.
How could posture have such an important influence? That's is a bit of a mystery that could only be explained through science IMO.
An intriguing subject - and controversial, so it seems.
m
Sat 2-day
That is precisely what I always say. That, and that if it feels balanced, comfortable and right ... it probably is.
One of the few handicaps we have in our online format (so far ... still waiting for the "hands on" holodeck Zendo a few technological leaps from now) is the ability to reach out and adjust posture. Even so, the teacher cannot really get inside the student's head and feel what the student is feeling about the student's own body. (As a matter of fact, this leads to the tendency I find in Japan and elsewhere for the Teachers and Priests to try to force everyone into a "one size fits all" kind of posture. I do not agree with that). For these reasons, the Will Johnson book (and so many of Taigu's talks) are the best prescription I have found for the student to self-diagnosis and find the posture(s) right for the student based on the student's own experience of the student's own body.
I also recommend folks to bring their Zafu and go consult with some local Yoga Teachers. (Bring the Zafu, because most Yoga folks use these little pillows, or sit flat on the ground, and I much prefer the raise of the Zafu for most Zen folks). Let the Yoga teacher offer some pointers, as Lotus and Burmese is something they work with too.
Gassho, J
Last edited by Jundo; 01-13-2015 at 04:04 AM.
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
If I were to adopt the very erect Japanese conservative posture I would to need support this with back muscles. They could not relax. That does not ring true to me. I have played around with ways to set up the posture which most suits me. If I stand in attention like a soldier then completely relax directly downwards, letting the belly push out to maximum - that is my spinal posture. The head needs to be tilted foreword just a little. I have been criticised for getting too hollow in the chest on occasions.
Whatever, after 25 years of sitting, including 7-day sesshin, I have never experienced back-pain. Maybe because my knees are hurting to damned much.
Just sharing here - not lecturing
m
Sat 2-day
Last edited by michaeljc; 01-11-2015 at 06:15 AM.
Hi TonyIt's the 'practice' of Shikantaza that eludes me. Just sitting feels like I am just sitting...like before I got on the cushion I was just laying....no difference then why bother? If there is a difference what is it? That difference is apparently not what I should be doing.
For me, the reason why shikantaza is such a good practice is that it cuts right at the heart of our desire to be achieving something, to be getting somewhere and to be doing something right. I'm a recovering achiever and know this feeling well.
I may be wrong but your posts usually come with a feel of wanting to get somewhere or of getting something right. Sitting with that kind of feeling is anthetical to the nature of shikantaza. If you feel the same when sitting as when normally lying down then my guess is you are probably sitting thinking. I would extend my guess further (and feel free to correct me) and suggest that the thinking probably goes a little like this (and I am speaking from personally experience!):
"This isn't meditating, it is just sitting doing nothing."
"Shikantaza is never going to get me enlightened. I would be better doing vipassana."
"This is a waste of time."
"Am I doing this right?"
"What should I be doing when the thoughts appear?"
"I need to ask Jundo about whether I am doing this right."
Engage with the thoughts and yes, you are just sitting thinking. You don't have to do anything active, though. Just don't feed the thoughts. They are just thoughts. For me, thoughts about practice are the trickiest kind of thoughts as they seem to be helping rather than (like thoughts about what is for dinner or whether you need to get petrol for your car) interfering with your practice. Thoughts about practice are the same and do not need to be engaged with.
Practice for me is like Sam describes - periods of openness punctuated by realising I have been following thoughts. The ratio of this varies from sit to sit. However, the catch is not to see the periods of openness as 'good sitting' and the following thoughts as 'bad sitting'. Sure, I aim not to feed thoughts but it happens. The practice is the sitting itself, not the end result. The more we strive for good sitting and enlightenment, the harder practice is going to be. I can completely understand why that is a hard thing to drop, though.
When I sit, I sit like I am on the top of a mountain admiring the view. There is no need to achieve anything or be anywhere else. I think you once described something similar when visiting a country church. This, for me, is the attitude to cultivate - oepn curiosity. Listen with your whole body. You are the eyes of the world.
In the Buddha's time one of his sangha was a lute player called Sona. When instructing Sona he explained that focus in meditation is like the string of a lute - too tight and you may snap, too loose and nothing happens. It may be that your strings need loosening a little. Let go and let things be as they are. What is it about this present moment that isn't whole and complete all by itself?
Anyway, these are the thoughts of a beginner of the path and I totally expect Jundo to come along soon and explain the bits where I am leading you astray!
Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday
Wonderful.
A very useful and clear definition.
Thank you
Gassho,
Walter.
(About to sit with this attitude now)
Gassho,Walter
Walter
I wouldn't be too hasty. Jundo might well suggest that following my advice is a very bad idea!
Good sitting.
Kokuu
#sattoday
'Practice for me is like Sam describes - periods of openness punctuated by realising I have been following thoughts. The ratio of this varies from sit to sit. However, the catch is not to see the periods of openness as 'good sitting' and the following thoughts as 'bad sitting'. Sure, I aim not to feed thoughts but it happens. The practice is the sitting itself, not the end result. The more we strive for good sitting and enlightenment, the harder practice is going to be. I can completely understand why that is a hard thing to drop, though. '
Thanks Kokuu - I think this explains it well.
Back to the Mountain top,
Willow
sat today
Last edited by Jinyo; 01-11-2015 at 12:36 PM.
Quite the contrary.
Gassho, J
SaTToday
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
Kokuu....almost like you read my mind! That's exactly the type of dialogue I have. The narrative is tediously predictable.
Didn't sit today.....but will tomorrow _/|\_
Sat today
When I sit, I sit like I am on the top of a mountain admiring the view. There is no need to achieve anything or be anywhere else. I think you once described something similar when visiting a country church. This, for me, is the attitude to cultivate - oepn curiosity. Listen with your whole body. You are the eyes of the world.
Gassho
Lisa
sat today
Do you think that some of us struggle (newbies to Zen and particularly Dogen) with the differences between what is commonly seen as a progression towards liberation and that which seems to be a radical acceptance of things just as they are?
To date I have seen reality in terms of there being suffering and a wish to attain a state free from suffering. The reason I suffer is because I still see myself as a separate entity..non-empty if you like.
How can I alleviate this suffering? By experiencing, understanding…which ever way you dress it to see through the illusion of separateness for good.
It’s just how this is brought about, seen or experienced (again pick one) by accepting things as they are ie. Suffering. Merely accepting this suffering might bring about a perfected state of attrition were I am anaesthetised to suffering – but this is not the same as becoming free from it (IMO).
Sat today
Hello,
Holy shot, who is you?
Just a salty suggestion.
Gassho,
Myosha sat today
"Recognize suffering, remove suffering." - Shakyamuni Buddha when asked, "Uhm . . .what?"
Hi TonyDo you think that some of us struggle (newbies to Zen and particularly Dogen) with the differences between what is commonly seen as a progression towards liberation and that which seems to be a radical acceptance of things just as they are?
To date I have seen reality in terms of there being suffering and a wish to attain a state free from suffering. The reason I suffer is because I still see myself as a separate entity..non-empty if you like.
I think that is a very likely reason why many of us struggle. Personally, I struggle with my illness daily. I have pain and don't want pain. Paradoxically, the way of least suffering is to accept I have the pain and be with it rather than thinking about how it feels to be well or the path to getting well. Is really very annoying and I am not always very good at it!
For me the main cause of suffering is wanting life to be something different than it is. In fact the more I want life to be different than it is, the more I suffer. Shikantaza is (as I understand it) the practice of letting life be as it is and dropping that sense of separation between self and other. Not feeling that sense of no-separation? Well, wanting that feeling is only going to bring more separation and more suffering! Wanting enlightment is just another darned craving and the idea of enlightenment is just another thing which our present situation can never match up to.
Really, the trick is in letting go. Sitting is like one of those Chinese finger traps. The more you struggle against how things are, the more it hurts. Although we undoubtledly improve in our ability to sit with things, liberation is available right here, right now in every moment we let go of our idea of how things should be.
Thai Forest teacher Ajahn Chah has some great words of advice:
“Do everything with a mind that lets go... If you let go a little you a will have a little peace; if you let go a lot you will have a lot of peace; if you let go completely you will have complete peace.”
This is true for all of life but especially for meditation. Relax, let go of ideas of progressions and progress, and sit with how things are. Or, as Taigu might say it, empty your bowl.
Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday
Last edited by Kokuu; 01-12-2015 at 04:36 PM. Reason: pointlessly adding more words
I echo what Kokuu said, Tony.
I would also say, however, that there is something amiss with your dichotomy of "a progression towards liberation and that which seems to be a radical acceptance of things just as they are".
First, we "progress" by liberation from the need to change, to add, to take away, to become. Human beings are filled with the desire and craving to do that, driven by greed anger and divisive thoughts, while Buddhas rest in the Peace and Wholeness of Just This. Perhaps one way to "really get somewhere" and "progress" is to stop and realize what is here all along and to abandon the greed and need.
Second (as we have been discussing all through this thread"), accepting things "just as they are" -- is not -- "just accepting things as they are"! It is not sitting in complacency, resignation, wallowing in our mess, filled with that greed, anger and division. Rather, it is a radical "Just" of Wholeness, Clarity and Peace which drops away the mess, greed and all the rest.
Third, what must truly be accomplished is actually a TRANSCENDING of all these questions. Thus, for example, one ultimately realizes Peace and Wholeness, all while our hearts simultaneously break for all the war, violence and suffering in this world. One realizes that there is nothing to fix, but we set about to fix it nonetheless. We realize that there is "nothing about us" in need of changing, and we are "Buddha all along" ... yet we are far from being Buddha, and have much to repair about ourselves to progress in that direction (We may be Buddha all along, but we rarely see so or act so). We experience a broken heart at the death of someone we love AND SIMULTANEOUSLY the experience of a Heart which cannot be broken, cannot be lost, beyond even life and death. Our goal is far from anaesthetising ourselves. Rather, I would say that we experience suffering so long a we are human ... all while totally free of suffering at once. Yes, suffering-no-suffering ... the Bodhisattva Path.
Transcend the dichotomies, and stop searching for things in all the wrong places.
Gassho, J
Last edited by Jundo; 01-12-2015 at 08:03 PM.
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
Thanks Jundo...I guess I am at the same time overwhelmed with those teachings from my past. The Suttas, Anapanasati and the Satipattana Sutta...the four foundations of Mindfulness and so on. It feels like in order to follow the path of Zazen (Shikantaza) I'd have to turn away and somehow divorce myself from them.
Sat today
Divorce is a very strong word. I do not find any conflict with the Suttas and our Practice. As you know, there is great diversity in the Suttas, some of which applies and some not.
Perhaps it is simply like someone who has practiced Karate for years, now practicing Aikido. I would not call it a conflict or a divorce, and just another approach. Some is the same, some not. Another road intersecting, same Buddha mountain.
Gassho, J
SatToday
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
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