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Thread: Thoughts and not thoughts…

  1. #151
    ‘This is an interesting subject. Just sitting. Shikantaza. Are they the same? Interestingly, a scholar assures me that Dogen does use the word Shikantaza within his writings. I am yet to come across it. Conversely, he regularly refers to established Koans and speaks in the tongue of Koans. He does make reference to an attitude of just sitting on multiple of occasions then, in the next breath, will come out with a Koan - like question to his students. As Jundo says, he speaks from out both sides of his mouth. I have no doubt that he constantly prods his students trying to instigate a break-through. He does this harshly at times. This is far more apparent in the Eihei Koroku than in the Shobogenzo. I personally value the Eihei Koroku more highly than the latter, as it brings me face-to-face with Dogen’s teaching in the Zendo. This brings me to pro-active vs. passive methods.

    As I see it, Koan and breath practice are pro-active. When we realise that we are diverted into thinking we drop it and go back to the focus. Just sitting, when we take the term literally, is passive. As I interpret this it means letting everything come and go in its own time. Noticing a thought, dropping it and returning to, I have no idea what, is not passive i.e. not just sitting. It is proactive. But, according to some interpretations it can be Shikantaza.

    The problem we have is that Shikantaza is not defined with any degree of consensus. It is commonly referred to as ‘following the moment’. I interpret this as (kind of) listen, feel, absorb. When in an everyday mind-state I find this requires a pro-active effort. When I find myself thinking I have to consciously come back to the moment. Staying in the moment for any length of time is difficult and takes effort. The simplest form of this is ‘just listen’ – a highly regarded method in some Yoga schools. Even ‘just listen’ is not easy to maintain when in an everyday mind-state. How does the passive ‘just sit’ (don’t try) fit in with all this?

    ‘Just sit’ comes in for a lot of historical and contemporary criticism. Hakuin ,and even Dogen at times, are scathing of students that sit like blobs in the knowledge that they are already Buddhas and enlightened. It is all very confusing. It is foolhardy to quote Dogen in support of a rigid theory on practice as anyone can immediately find a Dogen quote that contradicts it. So, is ‘just sitting’ a waste of time?

    I feel that we cannot resolve any of these enigmas in an everyday mind-state using everyday logic. We need Zazen and the mind-states it develops. While just sitting is something we/I can do right from the beginning of a sit, Shikantaza is something that comes naturally as sitting progresses over minutes, hours, and months. We/I can follow the moment for extended periods of time without effort (no-thought). Furthermore, within just sitting is the potential for natural, personal koans to develop. We can be in a situation of koan practice without trying. Classic Koans like, ‘who am I” can arise naturally. We/I can also slip into following the breath for extended periods of time without effort. A personalised kind of practice develops as of its own accord. This is the power of Zazen.

    I mentioned in an above post my personal method of embracing/immersing into emotions that arrive. Often these were everyday koan-like problems. This came about through practicing alone quite intensively far away from any group or teacher. My method was just sit. Zazen was utterly dependable in quietening the mind over time, on every sit. Just sit gave me the freedom to immerse in anything that came along. I was simply being with the emotion.

    But then, one of those really gut-wrenching problems came along, of the type that we cannot let go of for days. It was a horrible feeling. All I could do was keep sitting with this feeling. The end result of this gave me a new appreciation of the just sit method. Koan practice confronts the mind with an ever-increasing impenetrable wall that can - or may - in one moment in time come crashing down. Life, combined with regular just sitting can do the same.

    I have no idea if these experiences could apply to anyone else.

    Sharing – not lecturing

    Sorry that this is a long post

    m

    sat -2-day
    Last edited by michaeljc; 01-20-2015 at 10:47 AM.

  2. #152
    Hi,

    I do not know, if it fits to the "Thoughts and not thoughts…". I read a book from Teresa from Avila: "El Castillo Interior", what is something like the inner Castle. There is the description in a very "catholic" way. But after a long hymn on God and Jesus she starts to explain the seven flats in this Castle. I found a real good answer to my question of how to deal with that all in this book: "This all is just good for one reason. And that is get rid of the ego. I´ve got a good Frame (just again) about zazen. I think, it was in Sawakis book: "There was this Untouchable, who bowed to the great master and lost his hair and got the great satori. And it was, becourse he had lost his ego already." Uchiyama is using the Christian wording: "Zazen is the Expression of "...that our old human being is crucified with him."
    Isn´t that the idea, maybe?

    Gassho, Ernst

    Sat today

  3. #153
    Hi Michael,

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeljc View Post
    ‘This is an interesting subject. Just sitting. Shikantaza. Are they the same? Interestingly, a scholar assures me that Dogen does use the word Shikantaza within his writings. I am yet to come across it.
    No, that is not historically accurate. As Prof. Bielefeldt notes in translations for the Soto Zen Text Project ...

    “Just sitting” (shikan taza 祇管打坐; also written 只管打坐): An expression occurring several times in Dōgen’s writings — especially, as here, in conjunction with the phrase shinjin datsuraku. While not used in Chinese Chan texts, shikan taza functions as a technical term in Sōtō teaching, in reference to the particular “objectless” (mushotoku 無所得) zazen expounded by the tradition.

    ...

    先師古佛云、參禪者、身心脱落也、祇管打坐始得。不要燒香禮拝念佛修懺看經。

    My former master [Dogen's Teacher, Rujing], the old buddha, said,

    “Studying Zen is body and mind sloughed off. You get it only by just sitting; you don’t need to burn incense, make prostrations, recollect the buddha, practice repentence, or look at scripture.”

    Conversely, he regularly refers to established Koans and speaks in the tongue of Koans. He does make reference to an attitude of just sitting on multiple of occasions then, in the next breath, will come out with a Koan - like question to his students.
    Again, you have to be watch what you are saying. Dogen ... and all successors to Dogen of whom I am aware ... live and breathe Koans. Shobogenzo, Koroku and his other writings are chock full of Koans, wall to wall Koans, and we dance with Koans (such as the the Koans of the Book of Serenity). Yet this is a bit of another issue from whether we are to sit immersed in a Koan or a phrase from a Koan engaged in Koan Introspection Zazen in the manner of Ta Hui. There is really no evidence at all that Dogen advocated such a use of Koans. People (especially from the hybrid Soto-Rinzai Lineages that practice Koan Introspection Zazen) like to confuse the two issues.

    I feel that we cannot resolve any of these enigmas in an everyday mind-state using everyday logic. We need Zazen and the mind-states it develops. While just sitting is something we/I can do right from the beginning of a sit, Shikantaza is something that comes naturally as sitting progresses over minutes, hours, and months. We/I can follow the moment for extended periods of time without effort (no-thought). Furthermore, within just sitting is the potential for natural, personal koans to develop. We can be in a situation of koan practice without trying. Classic Koans like, ‘who am I” can arise naturally. We/I can also slip into following the breath for extended periods of time without effort. A personalised kind of practice develops as of its own accord. This is the power of Zazen.
    If it works for you after all these years, and you are happy with it ... do that! I would say this sitting is not about "following the moment" or a "pro-active effort" or "maintaining" some state or "developing personal Koans" or anything like that, but sit your own sit.

    Gassho, Jundo

    SatToday
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  4. #154
    Jundo - thanks

    m

    Sat 2-day

  5. #155
    Here's an interesting article just read at Sweeping Zen on non- thinking.
    http://sweepingzen.com/thoughts-on-n...-non-thinking/

    Gassho, John
    Sat Today

  6. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless View Post
    Here's an interesting article just read at Sweeping Zen on non- thinking.
    http://sweepingzen.com/thoughts-on-n...-non-thinking/

    Gassho, John
    Sat Today
    Nice...just sent that to my Kindle - will read later Thanks!

    Sat Today
    Sat today

  7. #157
    No problem

    Gassho, John
    Sat Today

  8. #158
    Nice article, should be mentioned it was written by Koun Franz.

    Gassho

    Sat today
    求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
    I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

  9. #159
    Treeleaf Unsui Shugen's Avatar
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    Thank you for the link.

    Gassho,

    Shugen

    #sattoday


    Shugen
    Meido Shugen
    明道 修眼

  10. #160
    I found this an excellent review, in particular:

    But zazen changes that. In zazen, we can have the same basic brainwave patterns as in deep, dreamless sleep, except that we are completely awake and aware. We know where we are. We know what we are doing. We even notice if a fly buzzes by. But still, we remain in this expansive, open state. It’s not directed thought. But it’s also not the absence of thinking. Not at all. It’s something else. ....................


    It’s a lucid, non-grasping, receptive awareness that, while it sounds like a big deal, is actually something we can understand very well. It’s mental activity that is something other than thinking. It’s a place we can always go, even if it’s a place that few people recognize at all.
    The key phrase to me is "Zazen changes that"

    m

    Sat 2-day

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