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Thread: No 'I' ... No 'Know'...

  1. #1

    No 'I' ... No 'Know'...

    Hi everyone,

    I was sitting this morning and something came to me 'out of the blue'.....actually more like out of the cold darkness - its freezing here right now!

    I noticed my mind not so much seeking for experience but waiting for it. I saw the predilection for it to gauge the session by how much I had become unaware of my body - this 'off sensation' happens as you know naturally as the session proceeds.

    Then it occurred to me that when 'I notice' there is 'I' present.....the presence of this 'I' felt contrary to the practice and then....

    ...I thought any experience of any worth in Zazen would by implication be devoid of this 'I'. But then how would 'I' know and to whom would it be of worth?

    I have heard many people in here say that they have noticed a reduction in their clinging etc since sitting so there is clearly a benefit of sorts to be had - albeit by proxy.

    What are you thoughts?

    Can the 'I' be present and the experience be wholesome?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by dharmpasponge
    ...I thought any experience of any worth in Zazen would by implication be devoid of this 'I'. But then how would 'I' know and to whom would it be of worth?
    In my experience, at that moment, there is no need to know, no need for an 'I' to know, and no value to give to the 'thing' you talk about.
    The next moment, perhaps, when we are less 'in the zone' and I seems to be back, a delusional value is added to that 'thing'. Yet this is what makes us use right action and all the other 'rights', and so I believe there's nothing wrong with having that value, and an I to value it. As long as we don't start to believe it's all real.

    My answer to your question would be yes. And no.

    Gassho

    Vincent
    Ongen (音源) - Sound Source

  3. #3
    "I" would forget the whole "thing". Just relax, give up all this analysis and just sit. "I" think "you" think too much about "I".

    Gassho, J

    SatTodat
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  4. #4
    'I' suspect 'you' may be 'right' Jundo....
    Sat today

  5. #5
    Hi!

    As of late I have been having pretty interesting experiences in zazen. I can't really put into words, but all I can say is that I disconnect from the body and it feels too small to house me. This lasts for a few moments (I think), and then comes emptiness.

    At first I was freaked out and scared. Then I realized I was looking for too many explanations and logic. When I dropped all that and came to terms with it, I was at easy with all of it.

    Is that an "I" while we sit? I have no idea. I just drop it all and transform myself into a tiny grain of sand in the cosmic beach.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    #SatToday
    Hondō Kyōnin
    奔道 協忍

  6. #6
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  7. #7
    Hi All,

    truly, there are a lot of interesting things that can happen during sitting: physical sensations, mental gymnastics, emotions welling, mystical states of astral projection into multiple space/time dimensions, etc. And some of them are good to look into after zazen is done. They may bring insight into how better to live, or what needs looking after in one’s life. For instance, if a certain emotion or thoughts of a certain situation keep coming up, it might be good later to think about it and figure out how to improve that situation. You may rise from the cushion and realize you need to do something about something -- apologize to someone, change jobs, go back to your therapist, start doing yoga, whatever. That’s great.


    But “I” think that if you look at this stuff and think you’re going to learn anything about shikantaza, you’re mistaken. Am I doing it right? Um, no. Is this a good sign? Nope. Am I getting closer to some breakthrough or insight? No, so sorry! Because if you’re asking these questions, you are not doing shikantaza. You’re just asking questions about thoughts and sensations. Take your thoughts and sensations and use them to figure out what you should do next Tuesday. But don’t apply any of it to figuring out how to better your sitting. Leave your sitting alone. Leave it! Let. It. Be. Work hard in your daily life to improve yourself and everything around you. But do not work at sitting! Sit down on a cushion and be quiet. Just sit and drop everything as best as you can, allow yourself to be there as you are, and then do it again later, and then again, for the rest of your life.


    There’s no enlightenment for “me.” A pebble in the driveway is more enlightened than “I” can ever hope to be. This is not an exaggeration. “You” cannot get it right by any means of striving. There’s no progress to be made and no prize to be won. If you are trying to get shikantaza right, if you are trying to improve it, or to understand it, by examining your thoughts and sensations, you are only creating separation, and moving farther away than ever. Sit down and be quiet; let this stillness and silence begin to repair the cracks in the universe.


    Your practice is absolutely perfect. Exactly as it is. You are the practice and the fruits of the practice.

    Gassho
    Lisa
    sat today

    p.s. Rant from a newbie! Bring in the caravan of truckloads of salt.
    Last edited by Byokan; 11-27-2014 at 03:51 AM.

  8. #8
    Lisa, you always have such a fine touch in expressing and helping folks. A gift.

    Folks, just listen closely to what she says.

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 11-27-2014 at 03:56 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  9. #9
    No gift, you are too kind, Jundo. Just stuff I'm learning from everyone here.

    Gassho
    Lisa
    sat today
    Last edited by Byokan; 11-27-2014 at 04:16 AM.

  10. #10
    Mp
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Lisa, you always have such a fine touch in expressing and helping folks. A gift.

    Folks, just listen closely to what she says.

    Gassho, J
    I agree ... a truly pure gift. Thank you Lisa for that wonderful expression. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

    #sattoday

  11. #11
    That sure was a good read
    Happy morning to all whenever the first occasion arises!

    Gassho

    Vincent
    Sat today


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Ongen (音源) - Sound Source

  12. #12
    ' Sit down and be quiet; let this stillness and silence begin to repair the cracks in the universe. '


    Beautiful words Lisa, thank you.




    Willow


    sat today

  13. #13
    ' Sit down and be quiet; let this stillness and silence begin to repair the cracks in the universe. '

    I love this too. Beautiful!


    Kokuu

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by dharmasponge View Post

    Then it occurred to me that when 'I notice' there is 'I' present.....the presence of this 'I' felt contrary to the practice and then....

    ...I thought any experience of any worth in Zazen would by implication be devoid of this 'I'. But then how would 'I' know and to whom would it be of worth?
    Awakening is the biggest joke in the universe.

    Gassho, Jishin

    #SatToday

  15. #15
    Some wonderful gems here! Thanks to all.

    Deep bows.

    Gassho,
    Dosho

    Sat today

  16. #16
    Cool beans and happy thanksgiving.

    Sat today

    Kind regards. /\
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

    https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    Awakening is the biggest joke in the universe.

    Gassho, Jishin

    #SatToday

    Useless.


    Gassho,
    Myosha sat today
    "Recognize suffering, remove suffering." - Shakyamuni Buddha when asked, "Uhm . . .what?"

  18. #18
    Nindo
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by vanMeerdervoort View Post
    In my experience, at that moment, there is no need to know, no need for an 'I' to know, and no value to give to the 'thing' you talk about.
    Well said.

    Quote Originally Posted by raindrop View Post
    Your practice is absolutely perfect. Exactly as it is. You are the practice and the fruits of the practice.
    To truly believe that seems to be the biggest barrier.

    Gassho,
    Nindo

    _/sat today\_

  19. #19
    Thanks for your replies.

    There seems to be a sort of selective 'I' at times in some responses. For instance Lisa said "...'you' cannot get it right..." and I understand that as the self is empty there's nothing to gain or be gained. But later this same 'you' might have insights as a result of sitting.

    I can't put my finger on it but that's seems to be selective.

    Like there is no self......apart from when I want there to be.

    Does that make sense?
    Sat today

  20. #20
    Tony,
    makes sense if our non-existent selves sit on our non-existent zafus on non-existent G+ together?

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...796#post142796

    Gassho,
    Danny
    #sattoday
    Last edited by Jika; 11-27-2014 at 07:10 PM.

  21. #21

    No 'I' ... No 'Know'...

    Quote Originally Posted by dharmasponge View Post

    Does that make sense?
    No.

    Gassho, Jishin

    #SatToday

  22. #22
    There seems to be a sort of selective 'I' at times in some responses. For instance Lisa said "...'you' cannot get it right..." and I understand that as the self is empty there's nothing to gain or be gained. But later this same 'you' might have insights as a result of sitting.
    Tony

    As far as I understand it, the insights you get are of a relative nature (the relative world in which there is an 'I' and a 'you', in which we need an identity for a bank account, to eat well for our own health and to make choices moment by moment in work and family life).

    In Zazen, that you and I drops away, leaving sensation but no senser, thoughts but no thinker, no inside or outside, self or other.

    Explaining meditation practice or any kind of non-dual spirituality is fraught since we still use conventional language such as you and I to denote the fact that while the universe is one whole interplay of energy and matter, there are also people who exist in a conventional way and interact with each other.

    My advice would be to think about this as little as possible and place more emphasis on practice and then living. Understanding is overrated compared to sitting then acting and is the main reason for setting apart heaven and earth. Basically, you are not going to understand practice except by doing it. Thinking is more likely than not to be a hindrance rather than a help.

    Søren Kierkegaard put this better than anyone I know:

    Life is not a problem to be solved, but a reality to be experienced.

    Zazen is the best way to experience reality. Conceptual thinking is the best way to avoid it. Our logical minds are still convinced though that were we just to be able to understand how things are, everything would fall neatly into place. This, in my opinion, is wishful thinking. Whenever I start analysing ideas of self and non-self I remember that it is probably time to make some tea and look aimlessly out of the window. I don't say this to denigrate you in the slightest as I have done it but it led nowhere except to tie my brain in a knot.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    Last edited by Kokuu; 11-27-2014 at 07:24 PM.

  23. #23
    Hello,

    Imagine this was real.

    Good fun.


    Gassho,
    Myosha sat today
    "Recognize suffering, remove suffering." - Shakyamuni Buddha when asked, "Uhm . . .what?"

  24. #24
    No " I", no "know"
    That would be "just don't know" as taught by Sueng Sahn. You don't have to explain anything or understand anything and there is no end game. Just don't know is just sitting.

    Sat today

    Kind regards. /\
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

    https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    No " I", no "know"
    That would be "just don't know" as taught by Sueng Sahn. You don't have to explain anything or understand anything and there is no end game. Just don't know is just sitting.

    Sat today

    Kind regards. /\


    But sometimes folks think that Sueng Sahn meant that, by "just don't know", we should just end up wallowing lost in some ignorance and confusion. That is not what he meant. Oh, of course, sometimes while sitting we feel lost and confused, and that is okay when it happens.

    But "Just don't know" opens and flowers as a certain Wisdom which is a very clear "not-knowing-knowing".

    There is also a great Compassion. Perhaps it is a bit like asking, of a pregnant mother and her unborn child at the moment of birth, if "she" loves the "child", or if mother and child are one, or if there is just motherly love? Are there two or one or not one not two? Yes No Both Neither? Is such a matter of words alone, need it be broken into labels and categories? Something like that. Some beautiful answers come when the analysis is put aside. Not knowing ... not needing to say ... is truly just knowing motherchildlove.

    Something like that.

    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    Last edited by Jundo; 11-28-2014 at 04:58 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  26. #26
    Peacemouse
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    Tony

    As far as I understand it, the insights you get are of a relative nature (the relative world in which there is an 'I' and a 'you', in which we need an identity for a bank account, to eat well for our own health and to make choices moment by moment in work and family life).

    In Zazen, that you and I drops away, leaving sensation but no senser, thoughts but no thinker, no inside or outside, self or other.

    Explaining meditation practice or any kind of non-dual spirituality is fraught since we still use conventional language such as you and I to denote the fact that while the universe is one whole interplay of energy and matter, there are also people who exist in a conventional way and interact with each other.

    My advice would be to think about this as little as possible and place more emphasis on practice and then living. Understanding is overrated compared to sitting then acting and is the main reason for setting apart heaven and earth. Basically, you are not going to understand practice except by doing it. Thinking is more likely than not to be a hindrance rather than a help.

    Søren Kierkegaard put this better than anyone I know:

    Life is not a problem to be solved, but a reality to be experienced.

    Zazen is the best way to experience reality. Conceptual thinking is the best way to avoid it. Our logical minds are still convinced though that were we just to be able to understand how things are, everything would fall neatly into place. This, in my opinion, is wishful thinking. Whenever I start analysing ideas of self and non-self I remember that it is probably time to make some tea and look aimlessly out of the window. I don't say this to denigrate you in the slightest as I have done it but it led nowhere except to tie my brain in a knot.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    Have any of you guys noticed that sometimes at random, while not in zazen, duality can also drop off?

    Chet
    (Sat today)

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Peacemouse View Post
    Have any of you guys noticed that sometimes at random, while not in zazen, duality can also drop off?

    Chet
    (Sat today)
    Hi Chet,

    I find that things seldom drop away while IN zazen ; I think I would freak out if things dropped off while I was going about my daily business...! Or, maybe all the lights would come on; I am not sure...! I'd be interested to hear what it is you are experiencing...

    Gassho,

    Bryson

    sat today

  28. #28
    Peacemouse
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryson Keenan View Post
    Hi Chet,

    I find that things seldom drop away while IN zazen ; I think I would freak out if things dropped off while I was going about my daily business...! Or, maybe all the lights would come on; I am not sure...! I'd be interested to hear what it is you are experiencing...

    Gassho,

    Bryson

    sat today
    Hey Bryson,

    I'm talking about a sudden realization that the voice inside your head that points to you is pointing at nothing-in-particular...or the realization of the ridiculous opinion or judgment that you normally cherish but suddenly appears to actually be ridiculous. Or maybe just the brief disappearance of boundaries between things.

    Chet
    (Sat today)

  29. #29
    Hello !

    Duality drops off and comes on all the time, no ? I mean, when you're doing stuff, and you are really involved in it, there is no "you" and "stuff", just the doing. I see that a lot in aikido, but also in all life. Maybe zazen is pure action, that's why it helps dropping the boundaries.

    I love it when judgements you cling to become ridiculous, i have a lot of those moments as well, it's fun !

    Gassho,

    Ugrok

    Sat Today

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Peacemouse View Post
    Have any of you guys noticed that sometimes at random, while not in zazen, duality can also drop off?

    Chet
    (Sat today)
    Hi Chet,

    Yes this has been happening to me quite often, especially after the retreat. I feel more at peace among the usual chaos of life. It's hard to take sides and grasp to my opinions in situations and I can see things I had never seen before.

    Sometimes when I'm focused in an activity, shaving or yoga for instance, I forget about the body and just do one thing with the mind where it has to be. The I is dropped for a few moments.

    Strange

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    #SatToday
    Hondō Kyōnin
    奔道 協忍

  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    No.

    Gassho, Jishin

    #SatToday
    Try harder then

    Gassho, Tony

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    My advice would be to think about this as little as possible and place more emphasis on practice and then living. Understanding is overrated compared to sitting then acting and is the main reason for setting apart heaven and earth. Basically, you are not going to understand practice except by doing it. Thinking is more likely than not to be a hindrance rather than a help.
    Thanks Kokuu for a clearly thought through response...much more helpful. _/|\_

    Not to think? Not use the function of mind to understand the nature of things and in particular the illusory way 'I/you' appear to my mind? Really?

    I do practice every and have for many many years - though new to Soto and Dogen.

  33. #33
    Hi Tony, in my very short experience, I've found out that the more I want to understand things, the less I do.
    On the other side, sometimes while not trying to understand anything, something appears suddenly clear.
    But as soon as I focus on it, to describe it, or put it in words, it vanishes. It's like trying to grab the water.

    So I've decided not to try understanding anymore, out of lazyness, clearly not out of enlightenment.
    I just gave up. And so far I'm doing fairly good, I guess.

    Just my opinion, anyway.

    Gassho,
    Walter.

    #SatToday
    Gassho,Walter

  34. #34
    Thanks Walter
    Sat today

  35. #35
    Such wise and helpful words from several folks in this thread. Lovely.

    Gassho, J
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  36. #36
    Not to think? Not use the function of mind to understand the nature of things and in particular the illusory way 'I/you' appear to my mind? Really?

    I do practice every and have for many many years - though new to Soto and Dogen.
    Sorry, Tony, I didn't in any way mean to imply that your practice was lacking. You come across as someone with a dedicated practice.

    Using the mind is not a terrible thing but setting aside analysis for a time and just sitting and living can make both practice and life much simpler.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    #sat today

  37. #37
    Peacemouse
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by walter View Post
    Hi Tony, in my very short experience, I've found out that the more I want to understand things, the less I do.
    On the other side, sometimes while not trying to understand anything, something appears suddenly clear.
    But as soon as I focus on it, to describe it, or put it in words, it vanishes. It's like trying to grab the water.

    So I've decided not to try understanding anymore, out of lazyness, clearly not out of enlightenment.
    I just gave up. And so far I'm doing fairly good, I guess.

    Just my opinion, anyway.

    Gassho,
    Walter.

    #SatToday
    Hey Walter,

    In response to the bolded - How would you know?

    I think that it's a natural human tendency to become anxious when confused. Have you resolved that natural anxiety or have you simply disowned it?

    This is a question I have because I tend toward anxiety in general and often find myself analyzing. Zazen provides a great deal of understanding about this for me as it provokes a realization that I'm often anxious because I'm identified with a great many not-typically-challenged thoughts. This is possibly a boon. On one hand, it's scary to look at anxiety or confusion, but on the other hand, who questions an identification with good feelings or feelings of security?

    Thoughts on this?

    Chet
    Sat today

  38. #38
    Rudolf Arnheim said "All perception involves the desire to understand." very hard for me to disconnect the two and how to stop perceiving? -generating perceiver and desirer -not always understander.

    gassho, O, who sat today
    Last edited by Oheso; 11-29-2014 at 04:33 PM.
    and neither are they otherwise.


  39. #39
    Hi Chet,

    Quote Originally Posted by Peacemouse View Post
    Have any of you guys noticed that sometimes at random, while not in zazen, duality can also drop off?
    Several times and actually this brought me to Zen in the first place.
    The first time it happend it felt like remembering something I had forgotten for a long time. Ordinary and extraordinary at the same time, strange to describe.
    I try not to analyze this, as this is beyond analyzing and/or words.

    Gassho,

    Daitetsu

    #sat2day
    no thing needs to be added

  40. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Peacemouse View Post
    Hey Walter,

    In response to the bolded - How would you know?

    I think that it's a natural human tendency to become anxious when confused. Have you resolved that natural anxiety or have you simply disowned it?

    This is a question I have because I tend toward anxiety in general and often find myself analyzing. Zazen provides a great deal of understanding about this for me as it provokes a realization that I'm often anxious because I'm identified with a great many not-typically-challenged thoughts. This is possibly a boon. On one hand, it's scary to look at anxiety or confusion, but on the other hand, who questions an identification with good feelings or feelings of security?

    Thoughts on this?

    Chet
    Sat today
    Hi Chet.

    I actually don't know.
    I think that I've disowned the anxiety because I am very lazy to analyze this and that.

    But as most times the answer is "just sit", don't analyze and don't chase words, I started doing it.
    I remember the Fukanzazengi where Dogen says something like it's not about being smart or stupid. And because I am pretty stupid, I just try to drop the anxiety to understand.

    In a few months I've learned to drop the desire for this and that knowledge. What's next?
    More sitting, and trying to practise anytime.

    Sorry if my answer was not interesting, I'm full of ignorance.

    Gassho,
    Walter.

    #SatToday
    Gassho,Walter

  41. #41
    In a few months I've learned to drop the desire for this and that knowledge. What's next?
    More sitting, and trying to practise anytime.


    Sorry if my answer was not interesting, I'm full of ignorance.


    Gassho
    Lisa
    sat today

  42. #42
    Joyo posted this gift from Suzuki Roshi on another thread, but this is a good place too ... when one risks falling into analysis of experience and philosophical discussion, as well as the chase after some special experience (which chase is precisely what hides the experience) ... like the donkey trying to get the carrot ...


    or the Chinese fingertrap, by which the more one struggles and pulls the tighter one is caught ... only fully relaxing and yielding the way to freedom ...


    Quote Originally Posted by Joyo View Post
    Here's another little gem...

    Worth to listen and listen and listen again.

    Gassho, Jundo

    Sattoday
    Last edited by Jundo; 12-01-2014 at 02:55 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  43. #43
    Haven't been drawn to this thread because the question whether there is "I" or "no I" or "nonduality" is something I don't really care about right now. There is just an ordinary sense of self and place. Usually the dog has to go out in the morning and comes galloping by to use the sliding door behind where I sit. There are kitchen noises. This ordinariness is already "non-dual" so that is a non-issue. That leaves ordinary issues. Putting hands where hands go , exploring creative ideas and so on. Enjoying things , dealing with things. There was a story ( was it Trungpa who told it?) about a kid who left out the back door of his house and went on a long journey until he arrived at the front door.

    Gassho
    Daizan
    Sat Today

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