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Thread: Proposal for Sangha Discussion: "SAT TODAY!" - Sitting Before Talking

  1. #201
    then I get night fever, night fever.
    We know how to do it.
    Gimme that night fever, night fever.
    We know how to show it....

    Ooops, wrong place.

    Gassho, Jishin

    #SatToday

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post


    I do like the many creative variations in writing "Sat Today" that folks have come up with. That's great.




    Sattoday!
    Came up with these variations..

    Done Sitted

    Gone Done Sat Today

    Top-O-the Sittin' Today

    Sat like a splat today

    Velvety Sit Today

    Sat 'n' figited

    Sat Perched

    Sat Poached

    Sat-isfied

    Sitting and spinning

    ....



    Gassho
    Daizan

    Sat-with-acid-reflux-and-toe-cramp-and-nodding-off-today....ok

  3. #203
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  4. #204
    the new posting rule did not affect my sitting practice at all, but it perhaps curbed my inclination to post, believe it or not.

    to me it seems that the atmosphere of the boards has become a little unfriendly, with SHOUTING FONTS and I will not if you do not and such, and so much preaching to the choir.

    I wouldn't deny the support or inspiration gained by any to them. if it helps any practice, that's good. if it hurts or hinders, not so good.

    gassho, O, who sat today and daily sits.
    Last edited by Oheso; 12-04-2014 at 05:28 PM.
    and neither are they otherwise.


  5. #205
    Ansan
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hi Ka,

    This is not a playground or coffee house or social club or disco.

    This is a Dojo, a Practice Place for Practice.


    One does not go to a Karate Dojo for the soda and donuts, and one does not come here without Sitting.

    I hope that is clear by now.

    Gassho, Jundo
    Thank you, Jundo! I can hear your clear voice now. Very deep bows.

    Gassho,
    Ka

    #SatToday

  6. #206
    Hi

    Willow says in one of her recent posts "I think if the rule stands it will change the nature of the message board and possibly the nature of the sangha". Yup, probably so. This Sangha has been in a state of constant change over the years I have been a member. Treeleaf has been and will continue to change and grow. I think this recent request from Jundo regarding sitting before chatting is another growth spurt. Resisting change is a sure path to suffering. As my little grand daughter says.."let it go, let it go..."

    SAT TODAY
    Last edited by lorax; 12-04-2014 at 10:11 PM.
    Shozan

  7. #207
    Hi.

    My attitude towards this has not changed much. I'm a little ambiguous.

    I am personally slightly put off by a obligatory standing rule. I wish this forum to stay open as resource to anyone with a sincere interest in what is discussed here regardless of whether they choose to follow some set standard or not. Ideally no one should be barred. Even strictly non-sitting wife-beating alcoholics with a purely academic interest in the history of Zen clergy should be welcomed. Although of course encouraged to drop these bad habits and start sitting. Ideally! As long as people are both respectful and remotely interested in what we do I really see no problem. One should also try to share knowledge with the not-so-willing recipients if one truly believes it can help them. Ideally.

    On the other hand I can fully respect and emphasize with Jundo's point of view. A place for Practice not Zenny social club! A standing "sat today"-rule will with a little force up the standard of Practice and Practitioners here. What will happen then long-term I think is that Treeleaf will be a place for serious Zen students and not for people "interested in Zen". The folks not truly dedicated to Practice will be slowly weeded out. This is fine with me. I came to have a Practice and not to play at one.

    Bottom line: "Sat Today" is helpful to Practice and has helped me personally though I'm not entirely fond of all of its implications. I will trust and respect the verdict of my Teacher and the Sangha.

    Gassho
    Aske
    #Sat Today.
    ~ Please remember that I am very fallible.

    Gassho
    Meikyo

  8. #208
    Hi Aske,

    The wife beating alcoholic who does not sit will be perfectly welcome (although not encouraged in that lifestyle) for the first few months. No need to comply. After that, he would be expected to sit if coming here.

    Gassho, Jundo
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  9. #209
    I treat this 'place' as I would a bricks-and-mortar building. If I were attending a 'physical' zendo, I would be sitting. I might have some peripheral social contact with other members before and after zazen, or outside the building altogether if I have a friendship, but not 'in' the zendo...

    And as far as sitting goes, I would be SEEN to be sitting. As far as the 'declaration' is concerned, the only way Jundo knows if I am sitting is if I tell him (and the only way he knows I am NOT sitting is if I tell him); he shouldn't have to assume. So I am happy to tell him. And if that helps support someone else's practice, that's a bonus...

    I don't see this forum as a message forum or a social network, but as a 'place', as a 'virtual zendo'. There are plenty of social networking opportunities outside of this 'place'; if I needed a hug, I'd go there. I need to practice; I come here. If the teacher tells me to jump, I dont ask "why?", I ask "how high?"... (from the famous koan: "What is the height of one man jumping...?")

    Gassho,

    Bryson

    sat today

  10. #210
    Thank you, Bryson! Warm words that gave me once more a soft reminder.
    I tend to post a little too often, that's a bad habit of mine. I still need to focus more on when it is adviseable or needed to really say something and when it is best to simply ackknowledge something in silence.
    I very much like the idea of the "Sat Today" and already try to remmeber it, because it shares a community feeling and motivates. I came to this place to have the opportunity to sit with others. And even that simple Tag seen when browsing a few topics here gives a little boost.

    Gassho, Fabian
    #SATTODAY

  11. #211
    Hi All,

    I think it’s clear that a majority of people are in favor of keeping “sat today”, and that this is something our Teacher feels will be beneficial.

    There does seem to be an unspoken question lurking here, so I will be the devil’s advocate and ask it: if this is a hard and fast rule, how will it be enacted or enforced? Say someone is coming in and posting, and not discussing any trouble with sitting, and yet still not sitting after 3 months. What happens? A public discussion? A strongly worded PM? Ban from the forum?

    I only ask because the question seems to be sitting there like an elephant in the room. I have no objection to the rule.

    Gassho
    Lisa
    sat today
    Last edited by Byokan; 12-05-2014 at 09:45 AM.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by raindrop View Post
    Hi All,

    I think it’s clear that a majority of people are in favor of keeping “sat today”, and that this is something our Teacher feels will be beneficial.

    There does seem to be an unspoken question lurking here, so I will be the devil’s advocate and ask it: if this is a hard and fast rule, how will it be enacted or enforced? Say someone is coming in and posting, and not discussing any trouble with sitting, and yet still not sitting after 3 months. What happens? A public discussion? A strongly worded PM? Ban from the forum?

    I only ask because the question seems to be sitting there like an elephant in the room. I have no objection to the rule.

    Gassho
    Lisa
    sat today
    Hi Lisa - hopefully a gentle word from Jundo would be enough - I feel it would be very strange and inappropriate for any of us to be involved in a 'public discussion' on any member.

    Hello Bryson - just to reiterate, one of the guiding principles of this sangha is to provide a place of sitting (and I hope friendship/support) for those who can not attend a bricks- and mortar building (for some due to ill health etc). I think it's fine for members to come here for a virtual hug - and I appreciated this very much when my daughter first became seriously ill.

    Lets not get too austere,

    sitting before chatting - absolutely. But space for friendship too.

    Gassho

    Willow

    Sat Today

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by raindrop View Post

    There does seem to be an unspoken question lurking here, so I will be the devil’s advocate and ask it: if this is a hard and fast rule, how will it be enacted or enforced? Say someone is coming in and posting, and not discussing any trouble with sitting, and yet still not sitting after 3 months. What happens? A public discussion? A strongly worded PM? Ban from the forum?

    I only ask because the question seems to be sitting there like an elephant in the room. I have no objection to the rule.

    Gassho
    Lisa
    sat today
    Well, I imagine it would be very gentle and easy. If we notice it continuing over a period (not just once in awhile) we would just PM the person with a gentle reminder and inquiry. Kinda like we do when someone forgets an avatar picture or the like.

    If it turns out they are having struggle with sitting, we would let them know that they are welcome to join in the Forum in order to discuss and get passed their struggles and for hugs all arounds. Nobody is getting booted out for something like that. It is okay, it is something we all go through sometimes. (Also, the requirement does not apply to newcomers for the first few months, only older regulars.)

    If at that point, someone were to continue the Practice after repeated requests with no explanation why or a "go sit on your mother" attitude, I would temporarily close their membership here pending clarification. However, I doubt it will ever come to this. That seems very unlikely.

    Guys, I think some folks are overreacting ... as if we are going to have a band of men in black "Zazen Enforcement Police" running around, kicking people out.



    We are not banning hugs, kicking out the suffering, or driving people to Zazen with cattle prods.

    Anyway, Happy Rohatsu Everyone! The Forum will be closing shortly.

    Gassho, J

    SatToday!
    Last edited by Jundo; 12-05-2014 at 12:44 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  14. #214
    Hi all,

    For me it took a few days to get over the initial reaction to being asked to report, but once I did it was fine and helpful. But I think that I was able to get over that initial reaction because I have been around long enough to understand why we were being asked to do this and to believe that the intention was good. I agree with Lisa that the general consensus is to keep the "sat today". So my concern now is how will the rule be posted to the forum for new people to understand why this is being done and why we are asked to this. It will set an important tone for guests just looking around, as they don't yet have the faith in the intention and might be persuaded by their "what am I a child who has to report" feelings and leave or not join even if they are already sitting.

    Gassho,
    Kathryn

    Sat Today

  15. #215
    Would be interesting to see some server/forum stats on #posts/day before and after the initial announcement to see if there are fewer people posting!

    #satToday
    Thanks,
    Kaishin (開心, Open Heart)
    Please take this layman's words with a grain of salt.

  16. #216
    Nindo
    Guest
    Kaishin, I do have the impression that a lot of chatter has died down since the original request.

    "Majority" is not a simple concept on this site by the way - if you go to our member list, the majority of user names have 0 posts!
    And some of our regular posters have not said anything in this discussion.

    Gassho,
    Nindo

    sat today

  17. #217
    Hi Jundo:

    I know. You've gone to extraordinary lengths to make yourself clear (thanks by the way). What concerns me is the exclusion of people who might have something to gain from what goes on here but who are continuously not ready to commit or comply. Even if it is just a single seed of dharma being planted I feel that's better than nothing. Even if we never see it bloom around here. But as I said I understand you fully and stand by you.

    Just to be clear...I have neither wife nor a alcohol problem. It was just an example.

    Gassho
    Aske
    #SAT TODAY
    ~ Please remember that I am very fallible.

    Gassho
    Meikyo

  18. #218
    Member bayamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Campinas, São Paulo, Brazil
    Yeah I only noticed this thread today, but noticed the tag a few days back. Though I sit daily, I come and go from the board.
    Oh yeah, Sat Today! :-)

    Sent from my ST25a using Tapatalk 2
    Oh, yeah. If I didn't have inner peace, I'd go completely psycho on all you guys all the time.
    Carl Carlson

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by willow View Post
    Hi Lisa - hopefully a gentle word from Jundo would be enough - I feel it would be very strange and inappropriate for any of us to be involved in a 'public discussion' on any member.

    Hello Bryson - just to reiterate, one of the guiding principles of this sangha is to provide a place of sitting (and I hope friendship/support) for those who can not attend a bricks- and mortar building (for some due to ill health etc). I think it's fine for members to come here for a virtual hug - and I appreciated this very much when my daughter first became seriously ill.

    Lets not get too austere,

    sitting before chatting - absolutely. But space for friendship too.

    Gassho

    Willow

    Sat Today
    Hi Willow,

    I am not saying that there is no place for friendship - I have found some fine friendship here myself! - I was simply stating my own take on why I am here and how I see the place (i.e. for the practice, in that it is a dojo and not a discussion forum like some of the open boards). I

    certainly don't expect anyone else to follow my lead or to be influenced by my view; just hopefully giving some food for thought...

    I am always happy to change my own mind, given the right set of circumstances, so I am always keen to hear different viewpoints in order to better inform my own thinking...

    Gassho,

    Bryson

    sat today

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryson Keenan View Post
    Hi Willow,

    I am not saying that there is no place for friendship - I have found some fine friendship here myself! - I was simply stating my own take on why I am here and how I see the place (i.e. for the practice, in that it is a dojo and not a discussion forum like some of the open boards). I

    certainly don't expect anyone else to follow my lead or to be influenced by my view; just hopefully giving some food for thought...

    I am always happy to change my own mind, given the right set of circumstances, so I am always keen to hear different viewpoints in order to better inform my own thinking...

    Gassho,

    Bryson

    sat today

    Hello Bryson,

    no worries. Thank you for your practice and contribution.



    Willow

    Sat Today

  21. #221
    Hi guys,

    I posted guidelines as a sticky thread based on the the input and advice here. Thank you all. Lets see how it continues to go.

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...ore-Forum-Chat

    Gassho, Jundo

    SatToday!
    Last edited by Jundo; 12-09-2014 at 05:47 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  22. #222
    Hi all

    I must admit I am finding myself increasingly not liking the 'sat today' rule. I pretty much assumed that everyone was sitting regularly anyway and find it odd that someone would not be allowed to post on a particular day if they hadn't sat despite having a regular practice. Although shikantaza is clearly the primary formal practice of Soto Zen, practice takes many forms and some people are only able to sit intermittently due to work and family commitments in which they may be serving their community and loved ones with great compassion and awareness.

    To be honest, it feels a bit school teacherish, a bit like the way I ask my kids if they have brushed their teeth before they go out of the door in the morning. We are all adults and are responsible for our own practice. The requirement for daily sitting is already enshrined in the Treeleaf constitution (for want of a better word) so requiring written validation of that seems, to me, a bit superfluous.

    Anyway, just my two cents for what it is worth. My resistance to the rule does not mean that I will not work with that and abide with it while I am here. One person's resistance is just that.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    #sattoday

  23. #223
    Hello,

    So?


    Gassho,
    Myosha sat today
    "Recognize suffering, remove suffering." - Shakyamuni Buddha when asked, "Uhm . . .what?"

  24. #224

    Proposal for Sangha Discussion: "SAT TODAY!" - Sitting Before Talking

    Hello,

    Time to chat then time to sit or time to sit then time to chat? If there is time to chat then there is time to...

    Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

  25. #225
    It's not so much for me but reminder and encouragement for those starting on the path or those that have wandered off the path.
    Sat today
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

    https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

  26. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    Hi all

    I must admit I am finding myself increasingly not liking the 'sat today' rule. I pretty much assumed that everyone was sitting regularly anyway and find it odd that someone would not be allowed to post on a particular day if they hadn't sat despite having a regular practice. Although shikantaza is clearly the primary formal practice of Soto Zen, practice takes many forms and some people are only able to sit intermittently due to work and family commitments in which they may be serving their community and loved ones with great compassion and awareness.

    To be honest, it feels a bit school teacherish, a bit like the way I ask my kids if they have brushed their teeth before they go out of the door in the morning. We are all adults and are responsible for our own practice. The requirement for daily sitting is already enshrined in the Treeleaf constitution (for want of a better word) so requiring written validation of that seems, to me, a bit superfluous.

    Anyway, just my two cents for what it is worth. My resistance to the rule does not mean that I will not work with that and abide with it while I am here. One person's resistance is just that.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    #sattoday
    That may be so, Kokuu, but I will continue to ask people to sit ... even for just some minutes ... before coming here to chat, and to note their having done so in their posts.

    That does not apply to brand new folks during the first months, people who have struggles with sitting, health issues preventing sitting or the like.

    Even if someone is busy, if there is time to chew the fat, there is to to have sat.

    Gassho, Jundo (the school teacher)

    SatToday
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  27. #227
    I feel like Kokuu,
    but Jundo is the boss here, and thats a good thing. Actually I feel we have a tremendous freedom about how to practice and interact. And I think its ok to practice, live and chat with this rule.
    Gassho
    Myoku
    sat today

  28. #228
    Member bayamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Campinas, São Paulo, Brazil
    Quote Originally Posted by Myosha View Post
    Hello,

    So?


    Gassho,
    Myosha sat today
    Exactly! What gives one way or the other? I'll play along but I don't particularly care for the rule. I know I'm in the minority here, but I just don't think it's anyone's beeswax if one did or didn't. I do understand the reasoning behind it, valid point. It's like seatbelt or helmet laws, some good 'law' that I feel just comes down to personal choice.



    Oh yeah, if I didn't have inner peace, I'd completely go psycho on all you guys, all the time. Carl Carlson
    #SatToday, done of free will, begrudgingly reported... ;-)
    Oh, yeah. If I didn't have inner peace, I'd go completely psycho on all you guys all the time.
    Carl Carlson

  29. #229
    On crazy busy days, does a 5-minute informal sit on the edge of the bus seat count? If so, I can imagine very few circumstances where one could not sit every day. Although I have been accused of having limited imagination.

    #satToday
    Thanks,
    Kaishin (開心, Open Heart)
    Please take this layman's words with a grain of salt.

  30. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaishin View Post
    On crazy busy days, does a 5-minute informal sit on the edge of the bus seat count?
    Yes, I have sat on many buses, sometimes I have "sat" standing in a crowded Tokyo train.

    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  31. #231
    sometimes I have "sat" standing in a crowded Tokyo train.
    Thank you for the information!
    I commute a lot, and I was wondering if standing-balancing-shikantaza may even be called zazen.

    Gassho,
    Danny
    #sattoday

  32. #232
    I've sat many times in the subway on my way to work.

    Didn't know it counts

    (just kidding)

    Gassho,
    Walter

    #SatToday
    Gassho,Walter

  33. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by walter View Post
    I've sat many times in the subway on my way to work.

    Didn't know it counts

    (just kidding)

    Gassho,
    Walter

    #SatToday
    I am not talking about simply sitting on the subway, I am speaking of Just Sitting on the subway, on a mountain, in the temple, in the living room, in Times Square, in India or on the farthest star, sitting, standing, walking, running, flying through the air. Understand?

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...8Part-XXIII%29

    Gassho, Jundo

    SatToday
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  34. #234
    Nah, but if downtown Tokio has no earthquake, and if I am lucky and get a seat while commuting I can SIT (I remember very nice zazen videos from Amtrak this summer...).
    Standing, grasping for a handhold, while another passenger's backpack is pressed against my nose... well, I thought some kind of practice it must be...

    Gassho,
    Danny
    #sattoday(cushioned, trained, shaken)

  35. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    I am not talking about simply sitting on the subway, I am speaking of Just Sitting on the subway, on a mountain, in the temple, in the living room, in Times Square, in India or on the farthest star, sitting, standing, walking, running, flying through the air. Understand?
    Excuse me if I wasn't clear, Jundo.
    I was talking about the same thing.
    I try to sit zazen many days in the subway, I was not referring to just being sat down.

    The kidding was because I wasn't sure it could be considered shikantaza (although I was sitting with that attitude) because its quite different as peacefully sitting at home in my comfortable zafu, in half lotus and with an incense stick and a candle.

    Gassho,
    Walter.

    #SatToday
    Gassho,Walter

  36. #236
    Nindo
    Guest
    Different and not different.

    Gassho,
    Nindo
    sattoday

  37. #237
    Until this afternoon I wasn't aware that the "sat today" thing was new.
    I read this thread and observed that many members were concerned that this would be off-putting to new members.

    As a brand new member, I don't think it put me off.
    I think I perceived that daily sitting is a very normal activity for everyone around here.
    I have felt shy about actually typing the words "sat today" ("is my feeble attempt at this sufficient to count?").
    I definitely feel welcome.
    I definitely feel that if I am struggling with something that all I need to do is ask for help with it. (struggling with *a lot* of it actually, but lack the vocabulary to explain what the struggle is. As soon as I get a handle on it, I'll let y'all know! Or, maybe by the time I figure out what it is, it will have resolved itself?)

    I wasn't here before "sat today". In terms of atmosphere I don't have anything to compare it to.
    I can't imagine it being *more* friendly, or *more* supportive, or *more* welcoming.
    As far as forums go, this is probably the *most* I've ever experienced in all of those areas.

    Gassho
    Elle
    SatToday

  38. #238
    Kyotai
    Guest
    I couldn't agree more Elle

    Gassho Shawn
    Sat today

  39. #239
    That may be so, Kokuu, but I will continue to ask people to sit ... even for just some minutes ... before coming here to chat, and to note their having done so in their posts.

    Even if someone is busy, if there is time to chew the fat, there is to to have sat.
    Indeed, Jundo.

    Like Myoku, I recognise that I am in a minority here and will of course abide by the rule as it stands.
    Sometimes it is good not to always get things our own way and to realise there are other, maybe better, viewpoints.

    Elle, I am glad to read that it has not been off-putting to you.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    #sattoday

  40. #240
    I remember have heard my former Soto zen instructor in Lima telling in the middle of a seshin that the force of the partners keeping sitting in spite of the leg pain, the tiring and etc, that help the others to persist. I think the expression of our daily sitting below our posts could have a similar effect, inspiring to other treeleafers to persist. At least that is the effect on me.
    Gassho
    Miguel

  41. #241
    Thanks for sharing your newbie perspective Elle. Just shows to go you, perhaps it's a good thing for us all to dust off our beginner's mind.
    (RIght belief, Right intention ?)

    gassho,

    Oops, almost forgot / #sattoday
    合掌,生開
    gassho, Shokai

    仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

    "Open to life in a benevolent way"

    https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

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