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Thread: Still here not there....

  1. #1

    Still here not there....

    Hi everyone,

    Dogen and Shikantaza as explain here is fast becoming a Koan of sorts to me. I now feel compelled to reconcile what is apparently clear ad daylight to many in here. I have oft thought of walking away from Zen (Soto) as I could, I suppose, be busy practicing another form instead of trying to work out what Dogen is teaching.

    I guess it boils down to the fact that almost every response I receive is what we SHOULDN'T be doing as oppose to addressing the question which is more often than not what SHOULD we be doing. I speak specifically re Zazen in this context.

    Sometimes post sitting I get a small and brief glimpse into something that seems to say "you cannot go anywhere as you're already there and you cannot gain anything as you already have it".

    But that feels like some sort of ego bloating solipsistic stance I am not prepared to acknowledge.

    Dogens 'Practice is Enlightenment' eludes.me still and despite being able to fathom most philosophical quandaries I am left cold re this.

    Practice is practice surely? Practice in order to get better....To improve...To become proficient? Proficient at sitting in order for the mind to become quiet enough to experience reality as it is. This has purpose, aim and a result from the labours.

    To say there is no gain, no result, no attainment (at all) and no method seems to fly in the face of logic.

    I can hear "there is no logic", "drop all thought of result", "just sit and let go of any though of this or that"

    ....means nothing to me, but I am guessing it really should?!?

    I am on then circumference of frustration re this now.

    _/|\_
    Sat today

  2. #2
    I sometimes have the feeling that I'm wasting my time in zazen. Then again, I also sometimes feel like I'm itching or that I'm bored or that I'm lopsided or what have you. I think it's wise not to take "you cannot gain anything as you already have it" too seriously. Likewise, "This has purpose, aim and a result from the labours" and "I am guessing it really should?!?". My take (meh) is that isn't a practice of accretion (of skills or enlightenment or other wholesome things), but rather of ablation (of fetters, craving and other unwholesome things.) This doesn't mean that we don't develop skills as part of the practice and cultivate a wholesome mind, but that development is a natural consequence of having cleared away the rubble.

    I could be completely off base here, but that's how it seems to me. I am not so certain that this is as clear as daylight to many in here (it doesn't really seem clear to me, even though I try to fumble at words to recall something I imagine I once knew). Then again, perhaps it is and I'm just blinded by my own reflection. Proficiency and mastery of this mind is a clear goal, but ultimately as long as I am led around by the goal, however noble, I am still not my own master. So how do I drop the reins of thought without letting it run rampant? Unfortunately, I don't have an answer for that one. Currently I can barely keep the reins in place.

  3. #3
    What the huh? This is all tangled like bowl of noodles. Dharmasponge... There is dissatisfaction. It is unsatisfying. You will never win, never get it. No one does. Just lose. Just sit and fail. Just sit and be a loser...and wiggle your toes. I'm not being sarcastic. Gassho Daizan

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Daizan View Post
    What the huh? This is all tangled like bowl of noodles. Dharmasponge... There is dissatisfaction. It is unsatisfying. You will never win, never get it. No one does. Just lose. Just sit and fail. Just sit and be a loser...and wiggle your toes. I'm not being sarcastic. Gassho Daizan
    You see, and I cannot emphasise enough that I mean this with all respect!

    That means absolutely nothing to me at all.

    It just comes across as nilhistic and defeatist.

    Sit and Fail...WTF! Why even bother???

    Be a loser....again, what for??? Why?

    So ambiguous to the point of n=being meaningless.

    Sorry Daizan - I am really really not having a dig at you as I actually think your post is very 'Zen'.

    Who said the following:-

    "...Zazen is like a running river, as soon as you try to catch it its gone....as soon as you try to describe it, its something that's not that. Grasping at shadows in the dark is the real waste of time, rather sit on a lotus and expect to float....".

    Huh?

  5. #5
    Dear Tony

    I've kept an eye on your previous threads as they to me always seem to produce something fruitful.
    Please do not mistake me for teacher. I'm writing this with the hope that a jolt from a fellow neophyte may help you in some way. Also it's a chance for me to get better at explaining something important. Please don't take it too seriously. Still learning.

    Let's say you run [sit Zazen] in order to get exercise [Enlightenment i.e. simply seeing things as they are].

    When you run you're actually getting your exercise. Maybe you're not a good runner; you get bored, overwork yourself or can't finish. But the fact is you're still getting the exercise even if you somehow fail.

    You exercise because you've realized that it is good for you in some way.

    Now it's true that when you run you will improve. You will be able to run longer and faster and so on. But that's a just a nice side effect. That doesn't mean that when you reach er certain level of fitness you'll stop your running. Or that the exercise is over with this milestone reached. You don't think " must get better at excising/running" while running - you just exercise-run further. Can you really ever finish? If you think that exercise is something you reach or strive for by the process of running...that it's...coming...coming...No! You're mistaken. Your running is your exercise.

    Now you've finished your running exercise for today. What have you gained? Nothing! At all! You've spent time running in circles. And yet: You just got some exercise. This requires a little doublethink to understand. Only when you get both at once can you accurately say what you've been doing. If you don't get that* then...you just don't. And then it's time to move on.

    * Hard part: How can you truly get both when they contradict each other? By transcending the dualistic mind. Easier said then done.

    Now it's time for someone to untangle my noodle-mess. Surely there must be mistakes to clear up.

    Gassho
    ~ Please remember that I am very fallible.

    Gassho
    Meikyo

  6. #6
    Hi Dharmasponge,

    I make and unmake teachers. Ultimately my opinion is the only one that matters. If I am lucky, during zazen even my opinion becomes worthless.

    Gassho, Jishin

  7. #7
    When Daizan talks like that, I get it and laugh. Sam, I think you are taking yourself too seriously, too intellectually. We don't know anything so we make up stuff to feel better about it. "sit on a lotus and expect to float...." that's beautiful and something to smile about.

    Kind regards. /\
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

    https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

  8. #8
    Mp
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    I think you are taking yourself too seriously, too intellectually.
    Oh so true ... I used to fall into this trap so many times when I was younger. Acceptance helped me with this; being with what is helped me with this; not trying to know or understand everything helped me with this. There are times when we do need to understand something, but from my experience that is very few and far between. So the remainder of the time, I just be ... I live life riding the lotus and if that lotus doesn't float, then I guess it is time for a swim. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

  9. #9
    Hi guys,

    Frustration and even anger can be a gateway too. So what if someone does not " get it"? What is " it" then? Get shikantaza? None of us get it so please, dharmasponge, dont trouble yourself with the idea of beeing left behind.

    Maybe a good question to ask is why getting something or having a clear goal is so important to us all. Do we fully understand a computer or a car in order to use it? No So when feeling frustrated and confused, sit with that because that is you on the moment of sitting. The idea of dropping the confusion, frustration to reach some other and better state others seem to have is nonsense. Take the frustration of " not geting it" and examine that. Focus on it and breathe. Unwrap the anger that is pain in desguise and unwrap it like a present. At some point you will get tired of it an then you drop it.

    Maybe it helps to know, I for one sure dont get it. Dont want to anymore. Sometimes I sit and listen to the world outside or just to have a moment of peace away from demanding chores, wife and kids. Thats all there is. I dont feel any different or better after 40 minutes. Sometimes sitting for the sake of sitting is all. Wait a minute..... thats kinda the point of sitting.

    You are a great and inteligent guy and maybe your questionig and searching already is the pathless path. You have a strong grasp of the " don't know" mind. Stronger then me anyway. Im stupid and should question things more often, like you do. It is what makes you unique. Moonfaced Buddha, Sunfaced Buddha, I dont get it Buddha. All Buddha, whole and complete as is. No need to feel less or search for something that others seem to have or understand.

    Gassho

    Myoho
    Mu

  10. #10
    Yugen
    Guest
    Thank you Myoho. Deep bows
    Yugen


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  11. #11
    Hello Dharmasponge,

    please forget Dogen for a moment.

    Sitting in Shikantaza is one way of entering deeper into the often wonderful and equally mysterious way of experiences that arise constantly and which we call wonderful and/or painful.

    Whether you call it "dropping off", "surrendering" or "stepping off the tracks" matters little...it all leads to the same practise.

    Letting be. Or as a teacher I know once put it "We stop trying to avoid, close down, manipulate, or control what arises in experience."

    But we don't do it by turning off attention, but by cultivating attention and opening to boundless presence without a goal oriented mind.

    Now, why you would even want to explore reality this way can only be answered by yourself. Which leads to a related question we should all ask ourselves once in a while: Why are we doing this? What do we hope to gain?




    Gassho,

    Hans Chudo Mongen

  12. #12
    Hi,

    I don't think this Practice is for everyone. Maybe it is not for you, Tony.

    However, to some of us, your questions are like someone who does not yet know how to ride a bicycle saying, "I can't get how someone can stand up on two wheels, looks physically impossible!" It is like someone who has not yet fallen in love saying, "I can never fall in love". Neither is so hard once one does it!

    But some folks might never fall in love, and just don't have it. I don't know. It may not be for you, and some other Practice or Way is better. But there is no way to know except with time.

    I will say that Zen Masters of old sometimes spoke of students not "getting it" for years or decades (and some never)! Others take to it right away! The Koan Zazen folks speak about having to have Great Doubt to have Great Realization. I think that is true too for our gentle Soto Way that also turns the universe upside down and back again.

    Some folks know how to put down the judgments, the goals, and just rest in Wholeness and Presence. It is just because humans are not hard wired to do so easily (my cat seems better able. This is from the wonderful "Dharma the Cat" cartoons) ...



    I was just reading some words by Rinzai Teacher Jeff Shore on what they "Non-Attain". He describes the Practice of working with a Koan in Zazen and Kensho, and though the means is very different, the final non-destination is always the same ...

    How to describe it? All is gathered into one, and frozen. No longer any inside or outside. When this resolves – dissolves – practice truly is realization, as Dogen is fond of saying. Recall Rinzai: “There’s nothing to it!” And the Chinese monk who became the second patriarch: “I have searched for it thoroughly and it is, finally, unattainable.” ... What happens when the koan is realized? We really don’t attain anything. There is nothing to attain. We don’t gain a thing. I would say, on the contrary, we lose one thing: the separation: the separation from the world, from others, and from who we really are. That is all. We separate from the separation. Or better yet, the separation itself falls away of its own accord. Then for the first time we really know what this thing is [pointing at his feet].
    file:///C:/Users/J.M.Cohen/Downloads/BuddhistDownload/ff-a_rinzai_soto_dialogue%20(1).pdf
    So, get back to your cushion and keep trying ... perhaps another minute, perhaps another year, perhaps never.

    You may eventually get up on the bicycle that you have been already riding all along.

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 10-18-2014 at 05:49 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  13. #13
    I have a very happy doberman called dharma.

    Gassho, Jishin

  14. #14
    Yugen
    Guest

    Still here not there....

    I'm envious Jishin - my dogma ate my karma

    Deep bows
    Yugen


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Yugen View Post
    I'm envious Jishin - my dogma ate my karma

    Deep bows
    Yugen


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    My dharma loves bags of bones.

    Gassho, Jishin

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by dharmasponge View Post
    You see, and I cannot emphasise enough that I mean this with all respect!

    That means absolutely nothing to me at all.

    It just comes across as nilhistic and defeatist.

    Sit and Fail...WTF! Why even bother???

    Be a loser....again, what for??? Why?

    So ambiguous to the point of n=being meaningless.

    Sorry Daizan - I am really really not having a dig at you as I actually think your post is very 'Zen'.

    Who said the following:-

    "...Zazen is like a running river, as soon as you try to catch it its gone....as soon as you try to describe it, its something that's not that. Grasping at shadows in the dark is the real waste of time, rather sit on a lotus and expect to float....".

    Huh?
    Hi Tony. It's meant well. ..and I'm not trying to be clever. It took me way to long to fail, to just give up the ghost. It is the failure of the planner, the controller, the captain in the head, the one who wants to figure it out... to get it. Sometimes I think it would have been great to meet a teacher like Jundo twenty years ago... and maybe there would not have been so much melodrama on the cushion for so long. But I'm starting to think that these things just have to play out... there was no shortcut.

    I hope you do not lose heart and that you do keep sitting, and not mind comments like mine from the peanut gallery. Deep bows Daizan.

  17. #17
    I went on a bike ride this evening. Lovely this time of year in the South West of England were I live. I was riding on 'the levels' - a very rural and wild part of Somerset and I stumbled across an old church. It was starting to go dark so I went inside and immediately smelled that old church smell of wood, flowers and stone. I guess if you have never been to an old church in the UK you'll have no idea what I am talking about Anyway, it occurred to me that as I have no experience of enlightenment I just have to have faith that just sitting will one day bear fruit. But then all the people who walk in the cold to that old church pray to a god who's existence they can only have faith in.

    Just sayin' .....
    Sat today

  18. #18
    Jundo, thanks for you patient words.

    I had a thought immediately after reading your post. Maybe it is to do with faith. Faith that Shikantaza can bear the fruit that yes, I seek.
    Sat today

  19. #19
    Yugen
    Guest

    Still here not there....

    Tony,
    You are on to something. Faith not of the type that means accept other people's ideas blindly, but confidence in yourself to be steadfast in the midst of uncertainty.

    In zen we say practice requires three elements: great faith, great doubt, and great determination. Faith in ourselves as the source of our own truth, doubt as a source of questioning and always seeking, and determination .... Well... I think you know what that means. You have displayed that readily in seeking answers to questions you have - an admirable quality.

    Stick around awhile and see where the path leads. Not all who wander, as they say, are lost.

    More bike rides in the countryside are in order it seems!

    Deep bows and thank you,
    Yugen


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  20. #20
    Joyo
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Shingen View Post
    Oh so true ... I used to fall into this trap so many times when I was younger. Acceptance helped me with this; being with what is helped me with this; not trying to know or understand everything helped me with this. There are times when we do need to understand something, but from my experience that is very few and far between. So the remainder of the time, I just be ... I live life riding the lotus and if that lotus doesn't float, then I guess it is time for a swim. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen
    Thank you for sharing, Shingen. I was beginning to think I was the only one that just doesn't get everything, but has let it go. For example, I also do not always get zazen, or undertand the Heart Sutra. But the little glimpses that I do understand are like the sun's rays shining through the clouds. The entire sun is too difficult to look at, so I just enjoy the view.

    Gassho,
    Joyo

  21. #21
    Man this is an awesome topic. Some days zazen for me is awesome and peaceful, some days I absolutely just can't wait for the bell to ring. But awesome to whom? Crappy to whom? Who is this hurting, or what am I gaining? Nothing.. The important thing is to keep on keepin' on. Really, just show up. Just sitting and accepting is dead. But questioning and doing nothing else is just going to break you away from practice. Like Yugen said, I think great faith, great doubt and great determination just help it all balance out.

    I mean our minds are going 24 - 7.. ok I'm generalizing. My mind really goes 24-7, but after sitting for a while, you start seeing what it's doing, and maybe once in a while you aren't pulled into it so much. That storyline in our heads really causes a lot of unnecessary grief. If we approach Zen as a goal oriented practice, it loses its magic because by grasping we are still caught in that mind.

    That being said, I have trust in the teachers here and in the practice and the Buddha ancestors. I have determination to keep going when nothing makes sense. And I really don't have anything. That's why sangha is so important; we sort of kick each other's ass... ok more like support each other on our practice because it is easy to fall off the path when the honeymoon period is over.

    Anyway, tons of great posts here. Thank you everyone.

    Gassho,

    Risho

  22. #22
    Excuse me Tony, I got your name wrong.

    Kind regards. /\
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

    https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by dharmasponge View Post
    I went on a bike ride this evening. Lovely this time of year in the South West of England were I live. I was riding on 'the levels' - a very rural and wild part of Somerset and I stumbled across an old church. It was starting to go dark so I went inside and immediately smelled that old church smell of wood, flowers and stone. I guess if you have never been to an old church in the UK you'll have no idea what I am talking about Anyway, it occurred to me that as I have no experience of enlightenment I just have to have faith that just sitting will one day bear fruit. But then all the people who walk in the cold to that old church pray to a god who's existence they can only have faith in.

    Just sayin' .....
    A Koan for Tony ...

    Maybe such is like riding a bike on a lovely evening, thinking the church is something one must stumble upon or head to to find. Is the church confined by walls?

    The sacred smell of wood, flowers and stone permeates everywhere.

    Do not be in the South West of England looking for signs pointing to the South West of England. Like a man in Somerset looking for Somerset.

    Up and down, right and left ... all "the levels".

    Where on your ride was not the ride? Are you riding through the evening or is the evening riding you? Everything Riding and Always Evening.

    Starting to go dark, yet the light is shining.

    Just sayin' .....

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 10-19-2014 at 12:28 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  24. #24
    Tony

    I share all your confusion and whenever you post something, it feels to me you are speaking my mind. No wonder Risho called you sam.

    There is an inherent confusion/contradiction in the teaching. You are given a method to follow. There is an object and you have the discipline of bringing the mind back to it. There is right (focused on the object, waking up from thought quickly) and there is wrong (caught up in thought/emotion longer) and hence we always have the judgements and dissatisfaction basing on how our sitting went. On the other hand we are told not to judge, there is nowhere to go, nothing to attain. If there is no where to go can I just relax and not bring my mind back to the object? I can't. So I have to take the method seriously and follow it diligently and yet make myself believe that nothing is going to change and not judge the practice. Especially as a beginner when my mind is so caught up in thought, it becomes even harder not to judge the practice or to have faith in all of this philosophy/mindset.

    They say actions speak louder than words. Here philosophy is the "words". Action is "Sitting and following a method/discipline". On one side I am controlling my meditation with a discipline and on the other side I am saying it doesn't matter. I feel as long as we are following a method and discipline, there is no connecting with the philosophy behind it other than blindly believing it.

    There is one thing I have tried though which I feel worked for me. Drop the method. Drop the discipline (of "strictly" wanting to bring the mind back from thoughts). Simply sit. Sit with deep knowing that whatever happens is okay. There is no right or wrong. If the mind gets caught up in thought and you realize after some time, it is okay. We are not putting any rules that the mind needs to be less caught up or aim for it. Of course at the same time we don't sit and try to solve a problem or "purposefully/intentionally" try to think of something. We are not trying to get it right as we have set no goal/discipline/object/method-to-follow. This is a big burden relieved for the mind. When I tried this simple sitting for few months, I felt like I really was able to connect with the philosophy. When I didn't control my meditation and allowed it to be as is, I was able to control my life too less. I was less in conflict with the flow of my life, Not really wanting to understand/know everything, Shobogenzo made more sense, Was able to accept tough people at work more easily etc...

    Of course many zen teachers don't recommend this and I didn't have the courage to stick with this either even though I felt it was working. I may go back to this. Just wanted to share this with you. The answer to all your confusion may be in this. You can try this for a couple of months and see if it works for you or at least the philosophy starts making sense. Or you can drop the philosophy for now and choose to strictly keep following the method with the faith that the confusion will be cleared one day.

    Gassho,
    Sam

  25. #25
    Thanks to all. So supportive. I promise my determination is coming from the right place.

    Jundo, this practice is for me. I am like a dog with a bone now and will not rest EVER until I can hold on to this slippy stone.

    A big deep bow to you all. _/|\_
    Sat today

  26. #26
    Thank you for this thread.



    Willow

  27. #27
    Hi Tony

    As humans we want to understand, to rationalise (Homo sapiens = thinking 'man', after all). Dropping all attempts allows us to be with experience and that is all there is. Everything else, including wanting to know why and how, is extra. Why put extra on top of experience? Zazen is a dropping away of concepts. Think of it as practice of experiencing life, a quiet place where you can see clearly. Does that make a difference?

    Your country church (which I love too and have a favourite around here) is just like that. You drop right into the experience, that is your zazen right there. You don't have to think why or how this experience is taking place, whether it is worth doing or where it is taking you but just to be there. Try the same with zazen.

    Thinking is a very human thing but not always helpful. Pure experience occurs in open awareness without the solidity we are so keen on as humans. You often seem to be stepping away from that openness and trying to find a new handhold like a person in a swimming pool reaching for the edge rather than enjoying the freedom of floating free in the uncertainty of not knowing.

    I am like a dog with a bone now and will not rest EVER until I can hold on to this slippy stone.
    If the stone is practice then good. If it is understanding or concepts, let it fall already.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    Last edited by Kokuu; 10-19-2014 at 10:45 AM.

  28. #28
    Btw, this was an interesting reponse to a question asked to Joko Beck some time ago (full article at Tricycle here):

    You think it’s a waste of time to have a breakthrough?


    Not a waste of time, but it’s not the point. It doesn’t mean you know what to do with your life. You can sit for twenty years and be wasting your time. What I’m interested in is the process of awakening, the long process of development, which may, or may not, have breakthroughs as natural fruit. What genuinely concerns me is the necessity for a student to learn to be as awake as possible in each moment. Otherwise, it can seem as if the point of practice is to have breakthroughs. I’ve spent years thinking about this, and seeing how it’s ordinarily done, and I’m just saying there’s a way to teach so that people learn to use their daily life as practice—as the key to awakening. And that’s how we do it here.

  29. #29
    Kokuu,

    Your first post is lovely, and so good to see you. I hope you are feeling a little better.

    Gassho, J
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  30. #30
    Great thread...so good to have all this fine companions to sit with

    Gassho
    Thank you for your practice

  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    Your country church (which I love too and have a favourite around here) is just like that. You drop right into the experience, that is your zazen right there. You don't have to think why or how this experience is taking place, whether it is worth doing or where it is taking you but just to be there. Try the same with zazen.
    Yes, that's it. What Kokuu said. The world is right there, you are right there with it, you are it, it is you - what is there to get? Well, I think our mind says "What is there to get? What there is to get is the deep, clear feeling and knowledge that I am the world, that the universe is me. That's what there is to get. And I haven't felt that yet, haven't experienced that yet, so there must be something wrong." I think this is what Sam, and all of us, go through at times. Certainly has been there for me. But how can you "get" that when it's already occurring - what things just as they are need nothing else. That's faith. We're not waiting for the universe to tap us on the shoulder when we're sitting zazen and say, "Yes, you just got it. You're pure, enlightened now. You finally did it right." Not going to happen because it's already in us, all around us, as us, us as it, and if we can just open ourselves to it - well, that's zazen to me, a faith in opening beyond my ideas, my wants, to everything. Tony, I think you're doing great; the same way you go on that bike ride you describe, as Kokuu says, sit zazen like that.

    Gassho

    PS: Nice to see you here Kokuu.
    Last edited by alan.r; 10-19-2014 at 03:00 PM.
    Shōmon

  32. #32
    Tony,

    I was told recently that in many cases my words sound like canned zen responses which carry no weight. I'd agree to a certain extent because I might have felt the same in his shoes. But these things that Jundo says have a way of fitting better over time. At first we think the sleeves are too long, the neck too tight, and the color awful. And until you simply accept that in the beginning things just don't fit as you wish them to, you may keep running into the wall instead of staring at it. See, I did it again!

    For me, I told myself early on that if I tried to be enlightened I never would be. So, I stopped trying to see some tangible result from practice. And, after awhile, practice just became second nature and I could see how I had changed. Just the other day the thought came to me, "Thoughts aren't real." I have said that to myself and others countless times and was sincere in my belief. But that day it just seemed more true. It defies logic, I know. But that's really the only type of "I GET IT!" moment you may ever have.

    Over the years I have seen people come and go at Treeleaf, with a handful leaving with some level of anger at the way Jundo teaches. To them and you I say, "Maybe this place isn't for you." It's not that I don't think Jundo can help those folks; I think he can. But until they surrender their suspicion and doubt there may be little that can be accomplished. Drop all that chatter in your head and sit down. Maybe it sounds disingenuous, but I assure you I mean it and believe it 100%.

    May the path find you even if you can't find it.

    Gassho,
    Dosho

  33. #33
    So many wise words!
    Thank you all.

    Gassho
    ~ Please remember that I am very fallible.

    Gassho
    Meikyo

  34. #34
    Hi, after a couple of very busy weeks, I dropped by just to thank you all for your insights on this topic which is very useful for me.
    I'm very glad to read you, Kokuu, again, hope you're feeling better.
    I want to thank Aske because he speaks very clear about these things I was thinking about, and didn't know how to answer (not to mention his excellent summaries in the precepts study threads which are also very useful)
    And of course Tony for being so honest to write about his doubts and chasing for an answer.

    I feel very much the same way.

    If I might add my 2 cents here I'd say that in my extremely short experience, I had to drop most questions because I'm so dumb to long elaborate on them.
    So I had to stick with the faith. Of course questions keep arising, but as I can not answer them, and am so dumb to understand from sutras, not to mention Dogen, my only resource left is to sit with trust that what I'm told to do by teachers and more experienced practitioners will eventually lead me to a deeper, non-intellectual understanding.

    So I just keep sitting, and I don't mean "I just sit" as someone who has mastered anything, quite the contrary, as someone who has only that possibility, out of his own limitations.
    I am too lazy about thinking too much because I'm not very smart and paradoxes are like red hot iron balls that I don't come to swallow and for now prefer to spit them off.

    So I sit letting paradoxes be, and time to time unwantedly get to enjoy a beautiful and ephemeral moment of having a glimpse at the wonders reality puts into our eyes constantly but we can barely see.
    Besides, doing this, I got to be slightly nicer with myself and people around me, and this has largely paid the effort of sitting.


    Thanks everybody for your practice and patience.


    Gassho,
    Walter
    Gassho,Walter

  35. #35
    Treeleaf Unsui Shugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Redding California USA

    Still here not there....

    Hello all,

    Here is link to a blogpost on the concept of "Faith" that I found interesting:

    http://thatssozen.blogspot.com/2014/...about.html?m=1

    (Sorry, you may have to copy and paste as I'm doing this from my phone)

    Gassho,


    Shugen
    Meido Shugen
    明道 修眼

  36. #36
    Hello,

    Thank you for the link.

    It 'quacks' me up!^^ ​(sorry)


    Gassho,
    Myosha
    "Recognize suffering, remove suffering." - Shakyamuni Buddha when asked, "Uhm . . .what?"

  37. #37
    Treeleaf Unsui Shugen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Redding California USA
    Quote Originally Posted by Myosha View Post
    Hello,

    Thank you for the link.

    It 'quacks' me up!^^ ​(sorry)


    Gassho,
    Myosha
    😀


    Shugen
    Meido Shugen
    明道 修眼

  38. #38
    Hi guys.

    Nothing to add really. Just wanted to thank you all for this thread.

    Gassho to all,

    Kyonin
    Hondō Kyōnin
    奔道 協忍

  39. #39
    I want to thank you Walter for your praise.
    I'm glad that what I do can be of help.
    Everybody else deserves the credit really.
    I just try.

    Oh - and nice to see you again Kokuu! Hope you're doing better.

    Gassho
    ~ Please remember that I am very fallible.

    Gassho
    Meikyo

  40. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    I have a very happy doberman called dharma.

    Gassho, Jishin
    Attachment to dharma.

    ImageUploadedByTapatalk1414091107.114151.jpg

  41. #41
    Still sitting.....just..... _/|\_
    Sat today

  42. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by dharmasponge View Post
    Hi everyone,

    Dogen and Shikantaza as explain here is fast becoming a Koan of sorts to me. I now feel compelled to reconcile what is apparently clear ad daylight to many in here. I have oft thought of walking away from Zen (Soto) as I could, I suppose, be busy practicing another form instead of trying to work out what Dogen is teaching.

    I guess it boils down to the fact that almost every response I receive is what we SHOULDN'T be doing as oppose to addressing the question which is more often than not what SHOULD we be doing. I speak specifically re Zazen in this context.

    Sometimes post sitting I get a small and brief glimpse into something that seems to say "you cannot go anywhere as you're already there and you cannot gain anything as you already have it".

    But that feels like some sort of ego bloating solipsistic stance I am not prepared to acknowledge.

    Dogens 'Practice is Enlightenment' eludes.me still and despite being able to fathom most philosophical quandaries I am left cold re this.

    Practice is practice surely? Practice in order to get better....To improve...To become proficient? Proficient at sitting in order for the mind to become quiet enough to experience reality as it is. This has purpose, aim and a result from the labours.

    To say there is no gain, no result, no attainment (at all) and no method seems to fly in the face of logic.

    I can hear "there is no logic", "drop all thought of result", "just sit and let go of any though of this or that"

    ....means nothing to me, but I am guessing it really should?!?

    I am on then circumference of frustration re this now.

    _/|\_
    isn't it the case that expecting the mind to completely cease production of expectations, cause and result relationships and ideas about desireable states of being is unrealistic or in the final analysis unnecessary, don't we need to learn to see through it? we don't expect the mind to quit being a mind, right? rather, we sit with what is, watch as things grow calm and settle, to see the layer upon layer of conditioning that desires and goals are part of-

    I just try to remember that in learning/ knowing/ practicing Buddhadharma, those perhaps more usual models of thought of mine, though often instrumental in getting from A to B, don't apply, so one must stop trying to apply those terms. thats all.
    I can not plan, conspire, devise or otherwise seek to grasp Anything Here, nor Now. This is completely out of the league of mis-matched locks and keys or getting on the wrong train going in the wrong direction. No previous mode or model of thought prepares or informs my knowing faculty for this one.



    gassho, O
    Last edited by Oheso; 10-27-2014 at 08:42 PM.
    and neither are they otherwise.


  43. #43
    but on the other hand, I confess that on another level, the desire to know or understand and to be resolved exists and I think functions as I kind of compass and pull, regardless.

    Thomas Merton once said something in a prayer about having no idea whether or not his thoughts or actions were pleasing to God, but that he could believe his desire to please God might in fact do just that, and so Merton had reason to persist.

    gassho, O
    and neither are they otherwise.


  44. #44
    Still there not here...

    Gassho, Jishin

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