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Thread: Lay robes: playing house?

  1. #1

    Lay robes: playing house?

    Hi all,

    Last night I was having a discussion with a friend about zazen and my local zendo here in Madrid. He's interested in checking out the center, although of course there is some reticence there (remember your first time in a zendo? Awkward bows, unsteady feet, sideways glances to make sure you're doing everything right?).

    He asked me if everyone wore robes. I said, "the priests do, naturally. For everyone else it's optional." And that lead to further discussion on the merits -- or lack thereof -- of robes.

    I'm not a big fan of lay robes. I just don't see the point. First, they're expensive. I haven't seen robes sold for anything less than 200 dollars. They say you should get a kimono and wear that underneath, etc. I feel like this ties in a bit with the recent conversations about "White Trash Buddhists" and the economic divide. 200 bucks for some costume you wear for a few hours a day? In my book, that's a luxury.

    I think it's also off-putting for a lot of people, especially when they are just starting to investigate Zen. They might write off zazen as weird, anachronistic.

    I also feel that robes can be a bit like "playing house." In other words, I don't see it as rooted in any reality. It is vastly different from the clothes we wear out on the street -- something that was not the case for practitioners back in the day, when these traditions were forged. I think maybe a temptation might be to buy a robe and wear it, thinking that it will make you a "better", more "serious" Zen student. So you put on the robe, play house for a bit, then take it off and go out into the world, into a separate reality. Division.

    I don't see lay robes as so integral or useful to practice as, say, the zafu.

    I do believe that some Zen traditions are good, like the altar. I can appreciate the practice of offering a stick of incense, in prostrating myself before the Buddha on the altar and to the Buddha in me and in all things.

    But I think my 18 euro pair of yoga pants is a lot more practical for sitting than a 200 euro robe.

    I realize that there are many viewpoints on this, and I am sure that many Treeleafers wear robes when they do zazen. (I refer specifically to lay people, not to priests, who I think have other justifications for wearing robes.)

    I wanted to open up a thread to see what others think about this matter, because I think it is one of the truly important processes in the Westernization of Zen: filtering the Japanese cultural trappings from the essence of the teachings, separating the wheat from the chaff.

    So should lay robes make the cut?

    --David

  2. #2
    I feel that the use of robes is an individual decision. Personally, I am happy in my ordinary clothes when sitting. For me, there is then no real separation from my time on the cushion to the rest of my time, as I try to move seamlessly from one to the other. Well at least that is what I try to tell myself

    Gassho,
    David

  3. #3
    It's just one of the many trappings that can be removed from zen to bring it up to date.

    Kirk
    流文

    I know nothing.

  4. #4
    Hello David,

    This came up on a recent thread, and I said (just my opinion on this, by the way, and to each their own heart) ...

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...-Robe-question

    One certainly does not require a lay robe in order to Practice or sit Zazen (although some folks find that such accoutrements help place them in a certain sacred mood). One can Practice just as well in a comfortable set of sweat pants. In fact, one does not need the Koromo robes that the Priest wears in order to Practice. Sometimes when we hold Zazenkai, I am fine with a T-Shirt and even shorts as my own clothes!

    Nishijima Roshi, who was often seen in both the formal robes of a Soto Zen Priest or in a business suit (with Kesa), would sometimes say that our wearing traditional robes is just dressing up for Halloween like "old Chinese people from the Tang Dynasty".

    BUT, if one will wear robes ... best to fold them right!

    Gassho, J

    This is also related to how much of "Traditional Stuff" we wish to keep and how much to toss away, and how "Chinese/Japanese" one needs to be. Time for my perennial post on ... TURNING JAPANESE!

    ======================================

    This practice is not limited to any place or time ... we drop all thought of place and time. It certainly is not Indian, Chinese, Japanese, French or American. But, of course, we live in place and time, so as Buddhism traveled over the centuries from India to China, Japan, Korea and other places, it naturally became very Indian/Chinese/Japanese/Korean etc.

    But what of the cultural trappings?

    Must we bow, ring bells, chant (in Japanese, no less), wear traditional robes, have Buddha Statues, burn incense? ... All that stuff besides Zazen. Are they necessary to our Practice?


    No, not at all!


    We don't need anything other than Zazen, any of those trappings. In fact, they are no big deal, of no importance, when we drop all viewpoints in sitting Zazen.

    On the other hand, we have to do something, to greet each other somehow, read some words, dress some way. Why not do such things? As I often say, for example, we have to do something with our hands when practicing walking Zazen ... why not hold them in Shashu (I mean, better than sticking 'em in your pockets)? What is more, wearing certain special clothes and holding one's hands with a certain formality, placing a statue and burning incense can all work as points of focus to remind us of the specialness of this moment and Practice (no problem so long as we also learn the lesson that all the so-called "mundane" instants of life, great and small, are special moments, each a "sacred ceremony" in its way, from taking a bath to making a peanut butter sandwich for the kids).

    As well, there are parts of our practice which we do BECAUSE we resist (for example, when visiting a temple for Retreat, I usually put my heart fully into ceremonies and arcane rituals BECAUSE I resist and think some of it silly or old fashioned). Ask yourself where that kind of resistance is to be found (here's a clue, and it is right behind your own eyes).

    What is more, there is method to the madness, and many (not all) customs have centuries of time tested benefits ... embody subtle perspectives ... that support and nurture Zazen Practice at the core. Many parts of our Practice, though "exotic", are worth keeping, even if they strike someone as strange at first. Bowing, statues, rigid decorum in the Zen Hall and, yes, weird talks about Koans and arcane ceremonies all fit in that category. They may seem like unnecessary "Japanese" or "Esoteric" elements at first, until you understand the role they serve. I have given talks on all these things recently, for example ... the humility and wholeness of Bowing.

    Many aspects of tradition can be seen in new ways when the barriers of the mind are knocked down. Thus, for example, the Kesa, the Buddha's Robes ... though just cloth ... can be seen to cover and enfold the whole universe, laughter, cries of pain, old age, becoming and fading away ... life ...

    On the other hand again, it is okay to abandon or reject many practices. However, KNOW very well what you are rejecting before you reject it.

    Absorb what is useful and discard the rest. For example, I think Oryoki [formal meal ritual] is a great practice, and worth keeping.. Same for bowing.

    When tasted as such ... every action and gesture in this life is Sacred and Magical when experienced as such, from changing a baby diaper to cooking dinner to chanting the Heart Sutra. So, why not Chant as well as the rest?

    Some things I keep out of respect for TRADITION [the robes, the ways of doing some ceremonies]. It is important to keep ties to where we come from. Some things also have a special symbolic meaning if you look into them, so worth keeping [for example, a Rakusu]

    But other stuff, no need to keep: For example, I usually avoid to chant in Japanese or Chinese [except once in awhile, out of respect for tradition]. Tatami mats and Paper screens have nothing to do with Zen practice particularly [but I happen to live in an old Japanese building, so ... well, tatami and paper screens!} Some things I think are just dumb (except symbolically), like the Kyosaku stick. Incense is great, until it was recently shown to cause cancer. Many beliefs of Buddhism are rather superstitious things that were picked up here and there. I abandon many of those.

    The outer wrap of Zen Buddhism is changing greatly as it moves West. The greater emphasis on lay practice over monastics, the greater democracy in what was a feudal institution (arising in societies where the teacher's word was law ... oh, those were the days! ), giving the boot to a lot of magico-supersticio hocus-pocus bunkum, the equal place of women ... heck, the use of the internet to bring teachings that were once the preserve of an elite few into everyone's living room.Those are good and great changes to the outer wrapping (you can read about them in books like this one (author interview here: http://atheism.about.com/library/boo...olemanChat.htm). The coreless core, however, remains unchanged.

    Do not throw out the Baby Buddha with the bath water. Many completely "Japanese" practices which seem silly at first are worth keeping. ...

    ... other things, like some of the arcane incense, bell & drum filled rituals, take 'em or leave 'em.

    Gassho, J


    Last edited by Jundo; 09-16-2014 at 02:42 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  5. #5
    When it comes to rituals I'm a minimalist. But I don't have problem with rituals of the people I'm sitting with. I wear my sitting robe when I am cold. My Buddha statues are inspiring. Can you believe its been 2500 years?

    Kind regards. /\
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

    https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

  6. #6
    Joyo
    Guest
    I do not wear robes, my $20 yoga pants work just fine. It's a personal preference though, and I do agree $200 is a lot of money. I do wear my rakusu though. And, now after reading Jundo's post I would say I do have an attachment to my Buddha statues and incense.

    Gassho,
    Joyo

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Joyo View Post
    I do not wear robes, my $20 yoga pants work just fine. It's a personal preference though, and I do agree $200 is a lot of money. I do wear my rakusu though. And, now after reading Jundo's post I would say I do have an attachment to my Buddha statues and incense.

    Gassho,
    Joyo
    I just added a sentence to the TURNING JAPANESE essay to underline something good about lay robes and such ...

    What is more, wearing certain special clothes and holding one's hands with a certain formality, placing a statue and burning incense can all work as points of focus to remind us of the specialness of this moment and Practice (no problem so long as we also learn the lesson that all the so-called "mundane" instants of life, great and small, are special moments, each a "sacred ceremony" in its way, from taking a bath to making a peanut butter sandwich for the kids).
    Gassho, J
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  8. #8
    I wear a black track suit for my current sitting practice; it provides me all the comfort and utility I need for the moment. But I 'get' the 'dress-ups'...

    I have been a martial arts practitioner for some time; in part of my practice (a 'contemporary' method) I train in shorts, in the other (a more 'traditional' method) I train in a 'keiko-gi' (training uniform; looks much like the samu-e. In fact it pretty much is a version of the same 'dress'). My colleagues in the contemporary method talk about me being a 'pyjama wearer' but while they think that they are rejecting tradition, they don't realize that they have created an attachment to that rejection. For me, I can go either way. But, the ritual involved in getting dressed provides a focus for my practice. The uniformity means that all of us on the floor are equal, without concern for what anyone else is wearing. Even after practice, this continues; the proper folding of the keiko-gi marks an end to the practice, again focuses the mind, and highlights the work we have done. Training in shorts and kicking a bag is an athletic endeavour; wearing the gi and performing a 'kata' (a formalized pattern of movements) can be almost 'ritsu Zen'... Both have their purpose; both are valid. I try to reject neither.

    Gassho,

    Bryson

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryson Keenan View Post
    My colleagues in the contemporary method talk about me being a 'pyjama wearer' but while they think that they are rejecting tradition, they don't realize that they have created an attachment to that rejection.
    We also have to learn how not to be attached to not being attached! By this I mean a certain pride (I am prone to this like many long term practitioners) which is proud of our not being attached and prideful, kind of a "Look how wonderful I am folks, I don't care which way I dress!". (So many hidden sand traps on this Zen golf course!)

    While, I believe, such kind of attachment is better than being attached to extremes of "I wear traditional clothes" or "I am a 'do what ya like' hippy", it also can be a subtle trap. I have to be careful.

    Best perhaps for each of us just to follow our heart, wearing and doing what seems best and most appropriate in the circumstances. When wearing formal robes and a funny hat, just do that thoroughly. When wearing a business suit or bermuda shorts, just be that thoroughly.

    A couple more Nishijima Roshi items, first in his most formal garb ...



    And an old visit with Nishijima Roshi. His subject was wearing the Kesa (called "Kāṣāya" in Sanscrit). The sit-a-long was recorded in his tiny retirement apartment a few years ago ...



    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-16-2014 at 03:34 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  10. #10
    By the way, I guess we should wear CLOTHES, although even that is optional. I sometimes mention the time I was invited to teach at the nudist Zendo in Florida ...

    Skyclad Zendo


    Follow teachings of Toni Packer and Springwater Center. The Skyclad Zendo is a naturist Zen meditation group which follows a non-traditional approach of open inquiry through awareness, mindfulness and attention. We meet every Sunday morning for two hours of zazen au naturel, from 10 A.M. to noon in the yoga room at Paradise Lakes Resort, 2001 Brinson Rd., Lutz, FL 33558-8367. We also offer seven-day silent meditation retreats with various teachers.
    Gassho, Jundo

    PS - Anyway, if you are sitting with other people, it is usually recommended that you wear dark (e.g., dark brown or black), patternless clothes, and loose fitting so as not to pinch the circulation. They do not have to be formal robes unless the particular Sangha group you are sitting with asks you to sit so.

    PPS - At the Skyclad Zendo, you place a towel atop your Zafu. ops:
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-16-2014 at 03:53 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    We also have to learn how not to be attached to not being attached! By this I mean a certain pride (I am prone to this like many long term practitioners) which is proud of our not being attached and prideful, kind of a "Look how wonderful I am folks, I don't care which way I dress!". (So many hidden sand traps on this Zen golf course!)

    While, I believe, such kind of attachment is better than being attached to extremes of "I wear traditional clothes" or "I am a 'do what ya like' hippy", it also can be a subtle trap. I have to be careful.
    Most certainly, but should we not also avoid the never-ending cyle of: "I am not attached to this." - "Am I attached to having to feel unattached?" - "Should I be not attaching myself to my feeling non-attachment?" - Etc..? When do we just 'let it go'...?

  12. #12
    Resounds of a Koan to leap through!

    Master Basho said to his disciples, "If you have the staff, I will give it to you. If you have no staff, I will take it away from you!"


    "If you have a robe, I will give it to you. If you have no robe, I will take it away from you!"

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-16-2014 at 07:09 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  13. #13

  14. #14
    Dear all

    Which holds the true spirit of Zen - Taigu's adherence to tradition or Jundo's notion of a 'no-kesa' way? Is Jundo sitting in swim shorts more or less Zen than Jundo sitting in koromo and kesa? Nishijima Roshi in suit or tradition clothing?

    In the Tibetan Kagyu tradition the first three key figures in the lineage are Marpa, Milarepa and Gampopa. Marpa was a lay householder, Milarepa a wandering ascetic clad only in a cotton shirt, Gampopa lived his life in a monastery. Which one was the true follower of the way?

    Gassho
    Kokuu

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    Dear all

    Which holds the true spirit of Zen - Taigu's adherence to tradition or Jundo's notion of a 'no-kesa' way? Is Jundo sitting in swim shorts more or less Zen than Jundo sitting in koromo and kesa? Nishijima Roshi in suit or tradition clothing?

    In the Tibetan Kagyu tradition the first three key figures in the lineage are Marpa, Milarepa and Gampopa. Marpa was a lay householder, Milarepa a wandering ascetic clad only in a cotton shirt, Gampopa lived his life in a monastery. Which one was the true follower of the way?

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    Thank you.

    All decisions need to come from the heart - many attachments in the head.



    Willow

  16. #16
    Hi All,

    Which holds the true spirit of Zen - Taigu's adherence to tradition or Jundo's notion of a 'no-kesa' way? Is Jundo sitting in swim shorts more or less Zen than Jundo sitting in koromo and kesa? Nishijima Roshi in suit or tradition clothing?

    In the Tibetan Kagyu tradition the first three key figures in the lineage are Marpa, Milarepa and Gampopa. Marpa was a lay householder, Milarepa a wandering ascetic clad only in a cotton shirt, Gampopa lived his life in a monastery. Which one was the true follower of the way?
    Here in Alaska the birch have traded their green robes for yellow this week; soon they will cast these off and wear only their papery bark. The snowshoe hare has worn a brown robe all summer, soon will don the white. And the mountain will trade its purple and green for the majestic blue and white robe of winter. All in good time and according to each in their own element.

    Gassho
    Lisa

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by raindrop
    The snowshoe hare has worn a brown robe all summer, soon will don the white.
    Well I guess it's not a proper snowshoe hare anymore then, is it?

    I'll be sewing a Rakusu soon. Whether I'll actually wear it, or mostly when, I don't know yet. Does wearing it change anything? I guess not. And yet it does.
    If I would wear it for 'myself' there would be no need. If I would wear it for others, there would be no need either.

    Mind boggling...

    gassho

    Vincent
    Ongen (音源) - Sound Source

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Resounds of a Koan to leap through!

    Master Basho said to his disciples, "If you have the staff, I will give it to you. If you have no staff, I will take it away from you!"


    "If you have a robe, I will give it to you. If you have no robe, I will take it away from you!"

    Gassho, J
    This pretty much sums it up for me.

    My wife and I discuss the issues of dress codes at schools all the time. We are personally in favor of it. You have kids coming to school in athletic clothes baggy pants, inappropriate t-shirts, even the teachers have gotten lax with how they present themselves wearing jeans and t-shirts some days. It all lacks a certain sense of professionalism. You wouldn't wear a business suit to the beach, nor a bathing suit to the job interview. When at the Skyclad Zendo you might want to take a bath before zazen. As Lisa mentioned, all things in their season. I respect the fact that we shouldn't necessarily be rigid in the way we practice. Sometimes sitting on a busy street is a good practice. Being able to sit in any attire, is ideal. Yet, I am finding with many of our traditions there is a reason for them that is not just nipponery or arbitrary. A wedding dress is expensive too, and usually only worn once. But, does it not add a certain something special to the occasion?

    Gassho
    C

  19. #19
    Mp
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by raindrop View Post
    Here in Alaska the birch have traded their green robes for yellow this week; soon they will cast these off and wear only their papery bark. The snowshoe hare has worn a brown robe all summer, soon will don the white. And the mountain will trade its purple and green for the majestic blue and white robe of winter. All in good time and according to each in their own element.
    Very nice Lisa ... each day, each moment, each season do we not wear a curtain attire for that occasion or weather pattern. I feel that such things can set our mind/practice in the right motion and also keep us from getting soaking wet! =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

  20. #20
    This is an awesome, awesome thread. It's a topic that I think about a lot, and I really agree with all the posts here.

    I think it's a personal decision to an extent. I mean if you are at odds with what your sangha is doing, then that might not be the right fit; you can't walk into someone's house and tell them how things should be to fit your needs.

    I'm a minimalist with ritual; that being said, I light a tea candle, which I place in my buddha statue for zazen during this Ango. I also wear a rakusu during zazenkai. There's an importance and richness that it adds, but that's because it has meaning to me. The rakusu also represents my ties with Treeleaf, so it is very sacred to me; I feel a kinship to everyone and a deep sense of gratitude for having this practice shared with me when wearing it. The kesa also has meaning to me.

    I wear a mala during the day, but if I know that it may draw unnecessary attention, I won't wear it to public gatherings. I know it's not really Zen, but it's sort of like a rakusu I can wear in public (if it doesn't draw too much attention). I'm not wearing it to draw attention to people, like "Hey, I'm a Buddhist!" It's a symbol of sanity to me. It's a cedar wood mala necklace that supposedly has the characters of Kannon; I don't read Japanese, how do I know? lol It could really say "You silly American." hahahah But I wear it because it brings me back to sanity. I chant the meal gatha, most of the time silently. Again, this is what speaks to the heart to me.

    These practices are things that we must find meaning in. Hell, when I first started sitting zazen, I thought it was weird, but it "felt" right. In fact, my wife asked me if everything was ok? I mean it's kind of odd to start this practice, especially from my house where we have faith in God, but we are nowhere overtly religious at all. Now, 5 years later, it's more like "Babe, I'm going to sit zazen." Or I might want a piece of cake, and my wife reminds me of my Ango commitment!

    In any case, I'm also the type of person who will look you in the eyes, talk down to earth, I may say "dude". lol I will more likely shake your hand than Gassho, but I will Gassho during ceremonies because that is tradition. And it makes sense there. It's a respectfulness that is in accord with the ceremony.

    I tend to sit zazen in my pajamas. It's hot here, so no fancy clothing for me

    To me the most important part of practice is keeping it authentic for myself. Now, that may include times when I feel like incorporating things like candles, or it may not, but this is not a straightforward thing. My feelings toward ceremony tend to change.

    I like the Zen phrase "Kill the Buddha" or "Don't put another head atop your own." That's where I'm very passionate. For this practice to work, it must be internalized. Now if the traditional trappings help you with that, so be it. But I feel that if I start adding too many things just because someone else did it that way, that it just becomes artificial.

    HOWEVER, like Jundo said and has been articulated on this thread, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I mean just because something feels artificial to me now, may likely mean that I'm just ignorant of its meaning, and that can be the case at times. In the vastness of this practice, I know nothing... so I try to keep an open mind about things.

    I'm also a little stubborn (ok a lot stubborn) so I try to drop all that and try to understand these things before i reject them. I'm all for killing the Buddha (you know your ideas of the Buddha, or your idea to appeal to an authority), not kiling someone. I'm a thinker, I don't appeal to authority, there is no authority. However, I'm not for murdering the Buddha, which I think can happen if we just throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    Gassho,

    Risho

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Resounds of a Koan to leap through!

    Master Basho said to his disciples, "If you have the staff, I will give it to you. If you have no staff, I will take it away from you!"


    "If you have a robe, I will give it to you. If you have no robe, I will take it away from you!"

    Gassho, J
    Could this Bible quote be a koan?

    "For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him."

    Matthew 13:12



    Gassho,
    Walter.
    Gassho,Walter

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hello David,

    This came up on a recent thread, and I said (just my opinion on this, by the way, and to each their own heart) ...

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...-Robe-question



    This is also related to how much of "Traditional Stuff" we wish to keep and how much to toss away, and how "Chinese/Japanese" one needs to be. Time for my perennial post on ... TURNING JAPANESE!

    ======================================

    This practice is not limited to any place or time ... we drop all thought of place and time. It certainly is not Indian, Chinese, Japanese, French or American. But, of course, we live in place and time, so as Buddhism traveled over the centuries from India to China, Japan, Korea and other places, it naturally became very Indian/Chinese/Japanese/Korean etc.

    But what of the cultural trappings?

    Must we bow, ring bells, chant (in Japanese, no less), wear traditional robes, have Buddha Statues, burn incense? ... All that stuff besides Zazen. Are they necessary to our Practice?


    No, not at all!


    We don't need anything other than Zazen, any of those trappings. In fact, they are no big deal, of no importance, when we drop all viewpoints in sitting Zazen.

    On the other hand, we have to do something, to greet each other somehow, read some words, dress some way. Why not do such things? As I often say, for example, we have to do something with our hands when practicing walking Zazen ... why not hold them in Shashu (I mean, better than sticking 'em in your pockets)? What is more, wearing certain special clothes and holding one's hands with a certain formality, placing a statue and burning incense can all work as points of focus to remind us of the specialness of this moment and Practice (no problem so long as we also learn the lesson that all the so-called "mundane" instants of life, great and small, are special moments, each a "sacred ceremony" in its way, from taking a bath to making a peanut butter sandwich for the kids).

    As well, there are parts of our practice which we do BECAUSE we resist (for example, when visiting a temple for Retreat, I usually put my heart fully into ceremonies and arcane rituals BECAUSE I resist and think some of it silly or old fashioned). Ask yourself where that kind of resistance is to be found (here's a clue, and it is right behind your own eyes).

    What is more, there is method to the madness, and many (not all) customs have centuries of time tested benefits ... embody subtle perspectives ... that support and nurture Zazen Practice at the core. Many parts of our Practice, though "exotic", are worth keeping, even if they strike someone as strange at first. Bowing, statues, rigid decorum in the Zen Hall and, yes, weird talks about Koans and arcane ceremonies all fit in that category. They may seem like unnecessary "Japanese" or "Esoteric" elements at first, until you understand the role they serve. I have given talks on all these things recently, for example ... the humility and wholeness of Bowing.

    Many aspects of tradition can be seen in new ways when the barriers of the mind are knocked down. Thus, for example, the Kesa, the Buddha's Robes ... though just cloth ... can be seen to cover and enfold the whole universe, laughter, cries of pain, old age, becoming and fading away ... life ...

    On the other hand again, it is okay to abandon or reject many practices. However, KNOW very well what you are rejecting before you reject it.

    Absorb what is useful and discard the rest. For example, I think Oryoki [formal meal ritual] is a great practice, and worth keeping.. Same for bowing.

    When tasted as such ... every action and gesture in this life is Sacred and Magical when experienced as such, from changing a baby diaper to cooking dinner to chanting the Heart Sutra. So, why not Chant as well as the rest?

    Some things I keep out of respect for TRADITION [the robes, the ways of doing some ceremonies]. It is important to keep ties to where we come from. Some things also have a special symbolic meaning if you look into them, so worth keeping [for example, a Rakusu]

    But other stuff, no need to keep: For example, I usually avoid to chant in Japanese or Chinese [except once in awhile, out of respect for tradition]. Tatami mats and Paper screens have nothing to do with Zen practice particularly [but I happen to live in an old Japanese building, so ... well, tatami and paper screens!} Some things I think are just dumb (except symbolically), like the Kyosaku stick. Incense is great, until it was recently shown to cause cancer. Many beliefs of Buddhism are rather superstitious things that were picked up here and there. I abandon many of those.

    The outer wrap of Zen Buddhism is changing greatly as it moves West. The greater emphasis on lay practice over monastics, the greater democracy in what was a feudal institution (arising in societies where the teacher's word was law ... oh, those were the days! ), giving the boot to a lot of magico-supersticio hocus-pocus bunkum, the equal place of women ... heck, the use of the internet to bring teachings that were once the preserve of an elite few into everyone's living room.Those are good and great changes to the outer wrapping (you can read about them in books like this one (author interview here: http://atheism.about.com/library/boo...olemanChat.htm). The coreless core, however, remains unchanged.

    Do not throw out the Baby Buddha with the bath water. Many completely "Japanese" practices which seem silly at first are worth keeping. ...

    ... other things, like some of the arcane incense, bell & drum filled rituals, take 'em or leave 'em.

    Gassho, J


    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    By the way, I guess we should wear CLOTHES, although even that is optional. I sometimes mention the time I was invited to teach at the nudist Zendo in Florida ...



    Gassho, Jundo

    PS - Anyway, if you are sitting with other people, it is usually recommended that you wear dark (e.g., dark brown or black), patternless clothes, and loose fitting so as not to pinch the circulation. They do not have to be formal robes unless the particular Sangha group you are sitting with asks you to sit so.

    PPS - At the Skyclad Zendo, you place a towel atop your Zafu. ops:
    Quote Originally Posted by Clark View Post
    This pretty much sums it up for me.

    My wife and I discuss the issues of dress codes at schools all the time. We are personally in favor of it. You have kids coming to school in athletic clothes baggy pants, inappropriate t-shirts, even the teachers have gotten lax with how they present themselves wearing jeans and t-shirts some days. It all lacks a certain sense of professionalism. You wouldn't wear a business suit to the beach, nor a bathing suit to the job interview. When at the Skyclad Zendo you might want to take a bath before zazen. As Lisa mentioned, all things in their season. I respect the fact that we shouldn't necessarily be rigid in the way we practice. Sometimes sitting on a busy street is a good practice. Being able to sit in any attire, is ideal. Yet, I am finding with many of our traditions there is a reason for them that is not just nipponery or arbitrary. A wedding dress is expensive too, and usually only worn once. But, does it not add a certain something special to the occasion?

    Gassho
    C

    Quote Originally Posted by walter View Post
    Could this Bible quote be a koan?

    "For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him."

    Matthew 13:12



    Gassho,
    Walter.
    Hmmmm, same but very different.

    Gassho

    Myoho
    Mu

  23. #23

    Being a Zennie?

    Hi,

    Enjoying reading the thread on Robes or No Robes.

    Made me think, when you sit and drop all, are you still aware of the tradition? Do you feel an aura of 'Zen/Japan/Dogen/......Sushi' around you?



    I'm serious though, is there a subtle attachment to tradition?

    I know when I was practicing in the Theravadin tradition there was a palpable sense of all things Thai/Colourful Shrines/Pali Chants etc....

    Could you happily practice Zen in Thailand?

    _/|\_
    Sat today

  24. #24
    Sure.

    "Zen" was born when Indian Buddhism came in contact with various Taoist and other Chinese/Japanese spices, now with Western spices added ...

    But, free of thoughts of here and there and this and that, one may Practice on the moon or under the sea (assuming a proper oxygen supply, of course) or both at once and everyplace AT ONCE. I do not usually sit feeling "Japanese" or "Dogen", and I just sit.

    By the way, would you mind if I merged this thread into the Robes thread? They feel like they go together.

    Gassho, Jundo
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-17-2014 at 03:06 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  25. #25
    I typically sit in a comfy pair of shorts or yoga-style pants. However, I wear a robe for Zazenkai. It's a personal preference. That's the only time I burn incense as well. Why? I guess it helps me to connect to the tradition and to the ancestors. I understand that it's not "necessary" for practice. Neither is the incense, chanting, bowing, statues, Rakusu, etc. Liturgy isn't a necessity, but then we should ask why we gassho. These are personal lines to draw. Better or worse, I wouldn't know.

    Gassho, Entai

    泰 Entai (Bill)
    "this is not a dress rehearsal"

  26. #26
    I ask similar questions the several times a year I have to participate in a university commencement ceremony: why am I standing in twenty-first century Ohio dressed in black gown, a silk and velvet hood, and a ridiculous hat like a medieval doctor of divinity? (And let me tell you . . . did someone say $200 for a koromo? A bargain!).

    I think my own answer for both academic and zen robes is similar, too: it goes beyond merely “playing a role” to change your own perception of yourself or others’ of you. For me, the putting on of the robes is an embodiment of the tradition rather than only a representation. This doesn’t mean that when I take them off, I give up the role (I still get to blather on about the stuff I’m supposed to know something about when I’m not wearing an academic gown), nor does putting them on make me any more knowledgeable (disappointingly, I might add). But something larger than myself that is not me, but that is something of which I’m a part, shows up in that moment.

    But I’m off to teach right now in my shirt-sleeves. And this morning I sat zazen in my pajamas and a T-shirt.

    Gassho,
    Monsho.

  27. #27
    No not at all Jundo _/|\_
    Sat today

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryson Keenan View Post
    I wear a black track suit for my current sitting practice; it provides me all the comfort and utility I need for the moment. But I 'get' the 'dress-ups'...

    I have been a martial arts practitioner for some time; in part of my practice (a 'contemporary' method) I train in shorts, in the other (a more 'traditional' method) I train in a 'keiko-gi' (training uniform; looks much like the samu-e. In fact it pretty much is a version of the same 'dress'). My colleagues in the contemporary method talk about me being a 'pyjama wearer' but while they think that they are rejecting tradition, they don't realize that they have created an attachment to that rejection. For me, I can go either way. But, the ritual involved in getting dressed provides a focus for my practice. The uniformity means that all of us on the floor are equal, without concern for what anyone else is wearing. Even after practice, this continues; the proper folding of the keiko-gi marks an end to the practice, again focuses the mind, and highlights the work we have done. Training in shorts and kicking a bag is an athletic endeavour; wearing the gi and performing a 'kata' (a formalized pattern of movements) can be almost 'ritsu Zen'... Both have their purpose; both are valid. I try to reject neither.

    Gassho,

    Bryson
    As an Aikido blackbelt, I practice while wearing a hakama over my gi. For those who don't know a hakama is a kind of large pleated divided skirt/baggy pants traditionally worn over men's kimono. It's part of tradition in some dojos for the black belts to wear it. It's also a pain in the ass to put on, and a pain in the ass to take it off and fold it properly so as to preserve the pleats. Many of my fellow blackbelts would rather not wear it although they sometimes do. I make it a point of wearing it every practice. For me, it is part of my Aikido training to put on the hakama, and take it off and fold. And as I explained to a few students, it is precisely because it's a pain in the ass that I practice it. At the very least, it's good training for patience and paying attention - and I know I want to practice those.

    As for zazen, I wear pyjamas, which makes sense as I do it after I get out of bed in the morning.

    Gassho,
    Raf

  29. #29
    Best perhaps for each of us just to follow our heart, wearing and doing what seems best and most appropriate in the circumstances. When wearing formal robes and a funny hat, just do that thoroughly. When wearing a business suit or bermuda shorts, just be that thoroughly -Jundo
    - nandi

  30. #30
    I love my robe. Putting it on is like when the a/c kicks on, totally cool. At home I wear pants to deal with "the grave matter" at hand.
    In my group the core wear it, or black samu-e's. We all wear black. Never questioned why. It isn't so much tradition as uniformity in a very individual world.
    Kinhin is very very very slow...a continuation of zazen even if not totally so.
    We practice Soto Zen Buddhism. No elightenment here, nothing added, just this.
    "Know that the practice of zazen is the complete path of buddha-dharma and nothing can be compared to it....it is not the practice of one or two buddhas but all the buddha ancestors practice this way."
    Dogen zenji in Bendowa






  31. #31
    Joining the party late here, but a great thread.

    Professors Reader and Tanabe have a book titled "Practically Religious" and early in the book they something called "Protestant Buddhism".

    Bodiford's book on the history of Soto Zen describes what he calls "Neo-orthodoxy".

    I think what they are getting at is that in the quest for a more pristine Buddhism we might just be trading one culture for another.

    Anyway, I guess I've been on both sides of the fence over the years. My wife, who's Japanese, was a good foil for me because she often challenged my assumptions and I learned a lot in the process.

    Like Reverend Jundo said, sometimes there's more under the surface than one might think. Then some things are genuinely impractical too.

    Also, as a certain priest once told me: "Don't throw out something until you thoroughly understand first." :-)
    Last edited by jphiled; 09-26-2014 at 05:52 AM.

  32. #32
    I like to think that the practice itself is the robe. The physical garment itself is just the representation of 10,000 Buddhas. I think there's something beautiful about the rakusu, and the kesa, and the kimono. There's something special about the religious ritual, which includes the garb and the lingo. All of these things can be very silly, but it depends on how we treat them. Personally, I need an element of tradition in my practice, but I also need a bit of breaking away from tradition too.

    Salt, but not too much.

  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Daijo View Post
    I like to think that the practice itself is the robe. The physical garment itself is just the representation of 10,000 Buddhas. I think there's something beautiful about the rakusu, and the kesa, and the kimono. There's something special about the religious ritual, which includes the garb and the lingo. All of these things can be very silly, but it depends on how we treat them. Personally, I need an element of tradition in my practice, but I also need a bit of breaking away from tradition too.

    Salt, but not too much.
    Well said! Thank you. I feel that way too.

    Gassho,

    Risho

  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Daijo View Post
    I like to think that the practice itself is the robe. The physical garment itself is just the representation of 10,000 Buddhas. I think there's something beautiful about the rakusu, and the kesa, and the kimono. There's something special about the religious ritual, which includes the garb and the lingo. All of these things can be very silly, but it depends on how we treat them. Personally, I need an element of tradition in my practice, but I also need a bit of breaking away from tradition too.

    Salt, but not too much.
    Gassho,
    Raf

  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Daijo View Post
    Salt, but not too much.
    Or like spice: a little goes a long way. Too much ruins the flavor. :-)

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