Heart Attack Sutra interview

[Hans]

Hello dear Treeleafers,

here is a link to an interview that might be of interest to those interested in wider interpretations of the Heart Sutra in particular:



Gassho and all the best,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Joyo]

Thank you Hans. I will definitely be watching this today

Gassho,
Joyo

[Joyo]

This is brilliant, exactly what i need to hear, each day!!

Gassho,
Joyo

[Kyonin]

Thanks Hans!

The Heart Sutra is one of the most amazing texts for me. I've been chanting it for years and there seems to be a new teaching that pops up randomly... or could it be that they pop up when I'm ready to learn?

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Myosha]

Hello,

Thank you for the link.


Gassho,
Myosha

[jeff_u]

Thank you Hans for the link!

Gassho,
-Jeff

[Kokuu]

Thank you, Hans. Very interesting! Do you have the book?

Gassho
Kokuu

[Risho]

This was awesome, thank you Hans!

Gassho,

Risho

[Shugen]

Thank You Hans.

Gassho


Shugen

[Daiyo]

Dankeschön

[Mp]

Thank you Hans, this was great! =)

Gassho
Shingen

[Jinyo]

Thank you Hans,

Gassho

Willow

[Nindo]

Thanks. Here is a link to his bio, if you are interested.
Gassho,
Nindo

[RichardH]

[Nindo]

Mm... terrible sound and subtitles unfortunately - "Heart Sutra" was subtitled as "Hurt Sutra" and "OK ... great" as "cocaine grade"

[Heisoku]

Love the thought that saying 'no' is a call to relax. Reminds me of Cheng Man Ching who said that relaxing reduces fear which in turn makes us relax more. No fear!
Gassho
Heisoku

[Erin]

I didn't know if folks had seen it, but Thich Nhat Hanh has apparently just come out with a new translation of the Heart Sutra.

http://plumvillage.org/news/thich-nh...a-translation/

[Byokan]

Thanks for sharing this Erin!

Thay is making a bold move, not only translating, but actually adding a line to correct a deficiency that he perceives, to try to help us with that pesky concept of "emptiness".

The problem begins with the line: ‘Listen Shariputra, because in emptiness, there is no form, feelings, perceptions, mental formations, and consciousness’ (in Sanskrit: TasmācŚāriputraśūnyatayāmnarūpamnavedanānasamjñāna samskārānavijñānam). How funny! It was previously stated that emptiness is form, and form is emptiness, but now you say the opposite: there is only emptiness, there is no body. This line of the sutra can lead to many damaging misunderstandings. It removes all phenomena from the category ‘being’ and places them into the category of ‘non-being’ (no form, feelings, perceptions, mental formations or consciousness…). Yet the true nature of all phenomena is the nature of no being nor non-being, no birth and no death. The view of ‘being’ is one extreme view and the view of ‘non-being’ is another extreme view. It is because of this unskillfulness that the novice monk’s nose is still sore.

May we all have ease with our sore noses.

Gassho
Lisa

[Jishin]

Heart Sutra put into one word: No! (Mu!).

Gassho, Jishin

[Myosha]

Hello,

Thank you for the link.

Differently similar. (Why does my nose hurt?)



​Gassho,
Myosha

[Jundo]

Thanks for sharing this Erin!

Thay is making a bold move, not only translating, but actually adding a line to correct a deficiency that he perceives, to try to help us with that pesky concept of "emptiness".

Hmmm. I don't believe he is adding what is not already contained in the more common translations, so I wonder if it is really necessary. He sees a problem with the more common language that may not be there to most folks who already understand that this is not some simple "do not exist".

Also, he is adding words that, I believe, he feels should be there rather than what Chinese and Sanskrit versions say (I did that in a way in our Treeleaf Version, when I took some words in Sanskrit and explained the meaning in somewhat more ordinary English: "A/vo/lo/ki/tes/va/ra/ Bo/dhi/satt/va/, A/wa/kened/ One/ of/ Com/pas/sion" and "In Praj/na/ Pa/ra/mi/ta/, the/Deep/ Prac/tice/ of/ Per/fect/ Wis/dom"). That is fine, but I am not sure TNH is solving any problem.

Further, some of his other word choices are very personal to him, and perhaps not sufficient. To translate "form" as "this body" and to say ...

“That is why in Emptiness,
Body, Feelings, Perceptions,
Mental Formations and Consciousness
are not separate self entities.

... does not sufficiently convey the wondrous sweep of Emptiness.

I wonder what other folks are going to say about this Translation. I would say "Nice Try But No Cigar" (And Neither No Not-Cigar!)

Heart Sutra put into one word: No! (Mu!).

Overuse of MU! is also a cop out. There is a real Teaching (actually, a bunch) in the Heart Sutra that is MU but also so much more. MU is not even just "MU", but is all of reality!

That is why, if a fellow comes to you and asks how to make cherry pie, it is not sufficient to just shout "MU!". One should better hand him the Betty Crocker Cookbook. However, one might also tell him that the crust and cherries, the oven and baker, the plate and fork and luscious taste are also all MU! Emptiness is Pie Filling, Tummy Filling Precisely Empty! :

Actually, this seems to be one of the problems that TNH feels is sees in the Heart Sutra, that in his opinion it is saying in one part "this in emptiness, there is no cherry pie". However, that is not really what is said in the existing translations at all, which point to something much more subtle than just a mere "is and is not cherry pie" nor even a "no cherry pie nor not-cherry pie" (although that may be about as close as one can say in words).

Maybe he is too hung up on the words in this case.

Gassho, J

[Jishin]

Hey Jundo,

I just started studying the Heart Sutra and got no idea what I am talking about, but it sure is a cool sutra. All the no this, no that reminded me of No! (Mu!)

I been reading the Treeleaf and several other translations about 3 times per day when I get automatic email reminders hoping to learn some more. Powerful stuff.

Gassho, Jishin

[Jundo]

I recommend this book as perhaps the best introduction for folks by the great Translator Red Pine, which has good explanations of history and traditional doctrine etc. line by line ...

http://books.google.co.jp/books/abou...cC&redir_esc=y

There are some good books by others (for example, the Dalai Lama, although Tibetans generally tend to take a more analytical and philosophical approach that is flavored a bit differently from most Zen folks).

Gassho, J

[Byokan]

Hi All,

...some of his other word choices are very personal to him, and perhaps not sufficient. To translate "form" as "this body" and to say ...


“That is why in Emptiness,
Body, Feelings, Perceptions,
Mental Formations and Consciousness
are not separate self entities.


... does not sufficiently convey the wondrous sweep of Emptiness.

I agree. Something is lost in his effort to make things more accessible and easily understood.

Maybe he is too hung up on the words in this case.

It really can happen to anyone, I guess!

Dear Family,
Thay needs to make this new translation of the Heart Sutra because the patriarch who originally compiled the Heart Sutra was not sufficiently skillful enough with his use of language. This has resulted in much misunderstanding for almost 2,000 years.

This is bound to rile up some folks. I’m getting popcorn.

Still and all, even if not 100% successful, it’s a nice translation. You’ve got to give a guy credit for trying, and having the chutzpah to put it out there. I like the one we use better.

Gassho
Lisa

[pinoybuddhist]

I agree, Lisa. Gotta hand it to the guy for his efforts. I actually downloaded the pdf to my tab, though when chanting I think I'll stick to the Treeleaf version. My personal take is: it's and interesting but I don't really see the neccessity. But, if it helps beings cross to the other shore, it's all good.

Gassho,
Raffy

[Jishin]

I recommend this book as perhaps the best introduction for folks by the great Translator Red Pine, which has good explanations of history and traditional doctrine etc. line by line ...

http://books.google.co.jp/books/abou...cC&redir_esc=y

Thanks Jundo! Started reading the book and it looks great.

Gassho, Jishin

[Ugrok]

Hello !

By the way, does anyone know why it is called the "heart" sutra ?

Gassho, Ugrok

[Jundo]

Hello !

By the way, does anyone know why it is called the "heart" sutra ?

Gassho, Ugrok

Yes!

There are many many "Perfection of Wisdom" Sutras of various lengths, each dealing generally with the subject (and "non-subject" subject) of Emptiness. The Heart Sutra is the pithiest, summing up the "Heart" of the Perfection of Wisdom" Teachings.

http://buddhism.about.com/od/mahayan...eart-sutra.htm

Of course, as was said, "MU!" and what is found shining through all words all together is even pithier!

Gassho, J

[RichardH]

The Heart Sutra really turned over how I see things. Having first joined the Buddhist stream through a tradition that based practice in (a moment to moment interpretation of) the Four Noble Truths, I struggled with the Heart Sutra after moving to Zen practice, and no one really explained it, or seemed able to. I thought it was just negating them, and other people, including my teacher at the time, described it that way. It didn't feel right, then the obvious finally dawned on me that it is saying the 4NT's are empty, and it was one of those life changing "aha" moments. Realizing that the 4NT's are empty freed and completed them. They were mountains, then they were not mountains, then they were mountains again. They were freed. Form is Form, Form is empty, Form is form . I could just be who I am, with my honest values and honest striving, and suddenly it didn't weigh a million tons. Everything completely changed, and that change was so complete, that not single thing changed, not single hair on a single head, not a single value, or measure.

Just sharing.

Gassho
Daizan

[Nindo]

I recommend this book as perhaps the best introduction for folks by the great Translator Red Pine, which has good explanations of history and traditional doctrine etc. line by line ...

http://books.google.co.jp/books/abou...cC&redir_esc=y

I loved the book by Red Pine, but it may also shatter some illusions. The sutra was compiled to address certain concerns one lineage of Buddhism had with the beliefs of another lineage. It is a political statement, and at the same time a condensed teaching.

Gassho,
Nindo

[Nindo]

The Heart Sutra really turned over how I see things. Having first joined the Buddhist stream through a tradition that based practice in (a moment to moment interpretation of) the Four Noble Truths, I struggled with the Heart Sutra after moving to Zen practice, and no one really explained it, or seemed able to. I thought it was just negating them, and other people, including my teacher at the time, described it that way. It didn't feel right, then the obvious finally dawned on me that it is saying the 4NT's are empty, and it was one of those life changing "aha" moments. Realizing that the 4NT's are empty freed and completed them. They were mountains, then they were not mountains, then they were mountains again. They were freed. Form is Form, Form is empty, Form is form . I could just be who I am, with my honest values and honest striving, and suddenly it didn't weigh a million tons. Everything completely changed, and that change was so complete, that not single thing changed, not single hair on a single head, not a single value, or measure.

Just sharing.

Gassho
Daizan

[Jundo]

...then the obvious finally dawned on me that it is saying the 4NT's are empty, and it was one of those life changing "aha" moments. Realizing that the 4NT's are empty freed and completed them. They were mountains, then they were not mountains, then they were mountains again. They were freed. Form is Form, Form is empty, Form is form .

Gassho.

[jeff_u]

Is the Heart Sutra itself not a wonderful expression of emptiness? Its evolution through translations, recensions, reinterpretations is a fluid, living process. Some byproducts of this are not always "skillful", conveying the Truth as we're familiar or as we believe was the original, authentic teaching. Some could be outright scams, whipped together by someone looking to sell a bunch of books.


But each of these instances is part of a stream. The unbroken, always folding and wiggling of things. The "original" text itself is not fixed. Whether translated from a Sanskrit original, or back translated to seem authentic, the most often used Chinese version is an expression of Chinese thought as much as Indian, it carries history and stories, politics and culture in between each of its characters.


I don't believe this gives us an excuse to believe or interpret what we want to about the text as far as emptiness goes. We still have to read it and understand it within the relative and absolute. The Heart Sutra has been a really inspiring part of my practice because it feels like a thread that I can pull on to reveal Buddhism and practice to me.


This makes me wonder though, to what degree can or should Buddhist texts be rewritten or reinterpreted? Just as Joshu's dog has or doesn't have Buddha Nature according to the moment-to-moment interaction between teacher and student. Where is the line between recognizing and honoring tradition and creating new teachings that can speak in a modern language?


Sorry for the silly thoughts, hope they make sense.


Gassho,
Jeff

[Jishin]

I recommend this book as perhaps the best introduction for folks by the great Translator Red Pine, which has good explanations of history and traditional doctrine etc. line by line ...

This book is awesome! I have easily read 150 Zen books in the last 4 years and this has got to be one of the best ones. I should have started with this one before reading the others.

Gassho, Jishin

[Myosha]

Hello,

Red Pine reading is like eating salted peanuts.^^


Gassho,
Myosha