Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 59

Thread: Wasting Time...

  1. #1

    Wasting Time...

    Hello everyone...

    I am getting really concerned that the time I am spending 'just sitting' is a waste of time and effort.

    Effort in the sense that I dedicate time each morning before dawn to train. As 'just sitting' is so radical a practice from what I have become accustomed to I often ruminate about whether its really the way to go!

    Don't get me wrong, I seem to be getting insight(s) of sorts - though not seeking them. Like I am getting a sense of late that I am experiencing the obvious - does that at all make sense to anyone?? Rev Jiyu Kennetts books are helping...

    But there is still that concern that I am not following what I always thought were the words of the Buddha - for instance the Satipattana Sutta and the Abidhamma.

    Yet, still something compels me to just sit?!


  2. #2
    Read the Heart Sutra prior to Zazen...also no attainment with nothing to attain...

    Gassho, Jishin

  3. #3
    Living in delusion is the waste of time. Just sitting is the gate to joy and ease. And ofcause ice hockey. Just put everything down for awhile and relax.

    Kind regards. /\
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

    https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

  4. #4
    Dear Dharmasponge,

    in my book we will all follow our heart at the end of the day. It may be that you have to get more accustomed to just dropping everything, or it might be that a different style of practise might suit you better.
    We are all different, so there is no one-fix-for-all. Something I have seen in myself and others numerous times though is the tendency to not allow oneself to ever arrive fully. The grass will always be greener on the other side of the fence.

    It MIGHT be that sometimes the grass actually IS greener on a side of a fence, but mostly it is our own issues and reactive patterns that keep us from finding and experiencing that the grass is fully green right where we are. Whether this is a one off thing or a pattern (like moving away froma practise again and again) can only be answered by yourself.

    As for the Abidhamma, it was written after the Buddha's death...and although it might be closer to the historical Buddha's ideas, you are not the historical Buddha. In fact nobody knows who the historical Buddha was.

    What does your heart say? Do you feel the Theravadins have it right and others have it wrong? Was anyone ever awakened after the Buddha's death who was not a Theravada practitioner?

    The answer that counts will be found in your heart, not in exterior authorities. If your heart (meaning the deepest and most intimate strata of what makes you you) decides that some kind of scriptural authority is what decides your form of practise, then that is an answer too. You should know however, that you are always the one giving authority to something. No religious teaching becomes valid and binding for you unless you open the door and invite it into your house.

    Our culture has subtly indoctrinated us to want to look for a perfect formula, to find something where we are sure that this is right, we often live in fear of doing something wrong.

    My own life is a continuous mistake, but the question is whether as humans we want to awaken to our own delusions, or instead maybe to be deluded about our attainment of something unattainable.



    Gassho,

    Hans Chudo Mongen

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Hans View Post
    Dear Dharmasponge,

    in my book we will all follow our heart at the end of the day. It may be that you have to get more accustomed to just dropping everything, or it might be that a different style of practise might suit you better.
    We are all different, so there is no one-fix-for-all. Something I have seen in myself and others numerous times though is the tendency to not allow oneself to ever arrive fully. The grass will always be greener on the other side of the fence.

    It MIGHT be that sometimes the grass actually IS greener on a side of a fence, but mostly it is our own issues and reactive patterns that keep us from finding and experiencing that the grass is fully green right where we are. Whether this is a one off thing or a pattern (like moving away froma practise again and again) can only be answered by yourself.
    Mongen (and Jishin and Rich) ... Lovely.

    The Buddha preached endless Sutta and Sutra for endless ears. All Good in the Beginning, Good in the Middle, Good in the End. As Mahayanists and Zen Buddhists, our Path is more the Diamond and Heart Sutras (the Perfection of Wisdom Literature), the Lotus and Huayen ... and also Such which shines right through the words and analysis. I would offer that the Satipattana Sutta (The Way of Mindfulness) was an early means to survey the body and mind, realizing that we are a composite without fixed "selfness", and that all is impermanent and not an object for attachment. The Abidhamma is likewise an excellent analysis (which we make use of too) on the way the mind puts the world together.

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/a...oma/wayof.html

    But let me remind you of the final sections of the Satipattana Sutta, how one is to abide when the analysis is done ... in Calm, Concentration and Equanimity.

    It is very difficult for some folks to just be fully at home and at one with and as what is, and thus the personal human measure of some waste and lack. If one knows how to sit without a sense of waste and lack, totally at home ... then one is home. The Buddha taught of non-attaining in the great Chapter 17 of the Diamond Sutra ...


    At that time, the venerable Subhuti then asked the Buddha, "World-Honored One, may I ask you a question again? If sons or daughters of a good family want to develop the highest, most fulfilled and awakened mind, if they wish to attain the Highest Perfect Wisdom, what should they do to help quiet their drifting minds and master their thinking?"

    The Buddha replied:

    "Subhuti, a good son or daughter who wants to give rise to the highest, most fulfilled, and awakened mind must create this resolved attitude of mind: 'I must help to lead all beings to the shore of awakening, but, after these beings have become liberated, in truth I know that not even a single being has been liberated.' Why is this so? If a disciple cherishes the idea of a self, a person, a living being or a universal self, then that person is not an authentic disciple. Why? Because in fact there is no independently existing object of mind called the highest, most fulfilled, and awakened mind."

    "What do you think, Subhuti? In ancient times, when the Buddha was living with Dipankara Buddha, did he attain anything called the highest, most fulfilled, and awakened mind?"

    "No, Most Honored One. According to what I understand from the teachings of the Buddha, there is no attaining of anything called the highest, most fulfilled, and awakened mind."

    The Buddha said:

    "You are correct, Subhuti. In fact, there does not exist any so-called highest, most fulfilled, and awakened mind that the Buddha attains. Because if there had been any such thing, Dipankara Buddha would not have predicted of me, 'In the future, you will come to be a Buddha known as The Most Honored One'. This prediction was made because there is, in fact, nothing to be attained. Someone would be mistaken to say that the Buddha has attained the highest, most fulfilled, and awakened mind because there is no such thing as a highest, most fulfilled, or awakened mind to be attained."

    ...

    "Subhuti, it is just the same when a disciple speaks of liberating numberless sentient beings. If they have in mind any arbitrary conception of sentient beings or of definite numbers, then they are unworthy of being called a disciple. Subhuti, my teachings reveal that even such a thing as is called a 'disciple' is non-existent. Furthermore, there is really nothing for a disciple to liberate."

    "A true disciple knows that there is no such thing as a self, a person, a living being, or a universal self. A true disciple knows that all things are devoid of selfhood, devoid of any separate individuality."

    To make this teaching even more emphatic, the lord Buddha continued,

    "If a disciple were to speak as follows, 'I have to create a serene and beautiful Buddha field', that person is not yet truly a disciple. Why? What the Buddha calls a 'serene and beautiful Buddha field' is not in fact a serene and beautiful Buddha field. And that is why it is called a serene and beautiful Buddha field. Subhuti, only a disciple who is wholly devoid of any conception of separate selfhood is worthy of being called a disciple."

    http://www.diamond-sutra.com/diamond...xt/page17.html
    Knowing this Non-Attainment of the Buddha Field as one sits, to the marrow of the marrow, is the Attaining of highest, most fulfilled, and awakened mind. Crazy how that works.

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-10-2014 at 12:50 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    Living in delusion is the waste of time. Just sitting is the gate to joy and ease. And ofcause ice hockey. Just put everything down for awhile and relax.

    Kind regards. /\

    C

  7. #7
    I think Rich nailed it,
    I too often, very often feel I waste time. The feeling of wasting time for me is an indicator that I'm just lacking calm. I also think sitting over the years transformed me, and I dont have the impression that the transformation is bad, or that it would have happened without sitting.
    Gassho
    Myoku

  8. #8
    Hi,

    It is very difficult for me to understand all of this.
    I just go, lit a candle perhaps an incense stick, sit and try to drop everything while sitting.
    Sometimes it's clear, sometimes it's cloudy. So far it's perfect.

    But when not sitting, I am very confused with all this "indefinition" found almost everywhere in zen.
    Excuse me if I am too simplistic, I can not find another way to describe my confusion.
    I see: "this and not this" "this and that" "neither this nor that" "good yet bad" "attain the non-attainable" "save but nothing to save".

    Could it be that things are presented that "undefined" way so as we can not grab a single hair for not falling into nothingness?
    Could it be that we so hardly need solid bases to ground our theories that when nothing is given we panic?
    Shall I learn to live with that if I wish to walk this zen path?
    Sorry for all these questions

    Everytime I think about this I end up feeling dizzy...

    Gassho,
    Walter
    Last edited by Daiyo; 09-10-2014 at 01:24 PM.
    Gassho,Walter

  9. #9
    Hello,

    Zen means pitching a tent in groundlessness. Again and again. Nothing to hold onto. Scary stuff.


    Gassho,

    Hans Chudo Mongen

  10. #10
    I used to feel that this practice was like a riddle I couldn't solve. I understood, but something wasn't working.

    Now I don't really remember what it was that I thought I wasn't getting. Just took some time, is all.
    求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
    I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

  11. #11
    Hi Dharmasponge,

    I hope I understood your concern. If not, please ignore this.

    The way I see it, we live in a task and goals oriented world. We need to achieve this. We can only be happy if we go up in our careers. We need to buy this. Hell, just yesterday new iPhones were announced and people went nuts for them.

    Civilization commands us to achieve stuff to be reliable people, to be happy.

    So, getting on the zafu and drop all this creates a conflict of interest in the mind. Pretty often we come up with thoughts like "I'd be better off working on this", "Why the hell am I sitting there if I need to go to X to do Y", "I'm wasting time here. And time is money. I'd better go to my ballet class" :P

    The mind and social programming will always fight with zazen.

    And that's precisely why sitting zazen is a jewel. We need to sit in order to drop everything, be calm and ready for life. At the same time, all life is zazen, where walls and tasks and objectives and pressure are dropped.

    To me, it's zazen is the missing gear on this huge machine called Civilization.

    But then again, I could be wrong.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Hondō Kyōnin
    奔道 協忍

  12. #12
    Another thread where everyone says what should be said so nicely, and I should just keep my mouth tightly shut.

    Gassho, J
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  13. #13
    Hi Walter,

    I know this blows your mind, and here I go again with some more.

    We live in a culture of extremes and absolutes. We are very used to be EXTREMELY happy with things and situations. We are pushed to live sadness to the point of depression.

    Media pushes opinions onto us and we need to take sides all the time. Good guys vs bad guys. Good politicians vs corrupted ones. Races. Sexuality. Electronic devices. Football teams. It's all absolutes.

    That's what's expected from us.

    However, I look at it this way.

    Sitting and zen give me the tools to look at life from all possible angles. No one is 100% bad or evil. No situation is 100% good. Not all pizza is 100% good. There are countless reasons why things are as they are. Even Videla (former Argentinan dictator) or Hussein, despite what history say, weren't 100% evil and perhaps they were in suffering... just like any other sentient being.

    It's not that we live in limbo and can't define sides.

    It's that through our practice we can see sides and options that were hidden before. The more you practice, sit and watch life unfold, the clearer it gets. Trust me.

    Now that I think of it... this is why you are still here, practicing, sewing and being part of Treeleaf. Could it be that something inside you knows better?

    Hope I didn't add to the confusion.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin



    Quote Originally Posted by walter View Post
    Hi,

    It is very difficult for me to understand all of this.
    I just go, lit a candle perhaps an incense stick, sit and try to drop everything while sitting.
    Sometimes it's clear, sometimes it's cloudy. So far it's perfect.

    But when not sitting, I am very confused with all this "indefinition" found almost everywhere in zen.
    Excuse me if I am too simplistic, I can not find another way to describe my confusion.
    I see: "this and not this" "this and that" "neither this nor that" "good yet bad" "attain the non-attainable" "save but nothing to save".

    Could it be that things are presented that "undefined" way so as we can not grab a single hair for not falling into nothingness?
    Could it be that we so hardly need solid bases to ground our theories that when nothing is given we panic?
    Shall I learn to live with that if I wish to walk this zen path?
    Sorry for all these questions

    Everytime I think about this I end up feeling dizzy...

    Gassho,
    Walter
    Hondō Kyōnin
    奔道 協忍

  14. #14
    Joyo
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Another thread where everyone says what should be said so nicely, and I should just keep my mouth tightly shut.

    Gassho, J
    No, no, please don't. I have so enjoyed reading (and learning) from each of the posts here, including yours Jundo. Thank you very much everyone.

    Gassho,
    Joyo

  15. #15
    Good day everyone,

    Prior to sitting zazen, meditation was training. There was something to get out it. Mastering the breath. Eliminating thoughts. Gaining some kind of superpowers I guess. It was a mountain that could be climbed and conquered. Getting over that I-need-to-get-something-out-this programming has been my practice (I still have a lot of trouble letting go of trying to control my breath...ugh). The more I've been sitting zazen, the more I've realized that there is no summit. There's still a mountain, but there's no need to get to that topless-top. You just climb. You can climb up-ways or down-ways, sideways. All good. It's the climbing and not climbing that is life. In this way, as Jundo always reminds us, zazen is all of life and all of life is zazen.

    Gassho,
    -Jeff

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by jeff_u View Post
    The more I've been sitting zazen, the more I've realized that there is no summit. There's still a mountain, but there's no need to get to that topless-top. You just climb. You can climb up-ways or down-ways, sideways. All good.
    Well, of course ... we also try not to wander in aimless circles (thought no place to get) or right off a cliff either (even though, well, there is no place ultimately to fall even as we fall!) **

    Gassho, J

    ** Another one of those seeming contradictions that may make Walter dizzy!
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  17. #17
    Though you say "it is," there's nothing which "is" can confirm. Though you say "it is not," there's nothing that "is not" can negate. When "is" and "is not" are left behind and gain and loss are forgotten, then you are clean and naked, free and at ease.

    -- Vimalakirti's Gate of Nonduality (Blue Cliff Record Case 84)


    Gassho
    Kokuu

  18. #18
    Nothing to add really. Much metta to you dharmasponge. Think most of us have pondered such questions. Sometimes, a question answers a question. Can we feel we are wasting or using time if we don't have any ideas about waste or time? In the style of the Diamond Sutra "There is no time to waste, thus it is only called wasting time."

    Gassho, John

  19. #19
    Either way...back on the cushion again in the morning....

    Thanks everyone.

    _/|\_
    Sat today

  20. #20
    Kyotai
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyonin View Post
    Hi Walter,

    I know this blows your mind, and here I go again with some more.

    We live in a culture of extremes and absolutes. We are very used to be EXTREMELY happy with things and situations. We are pushed to live sadness to the point of depression.

    Media pushes opinions onto us and we need to take sides all the time. Good guys vs bad guys. Good politicians vs corrupted ones. Races. Sexuality. Electronic devices. Football teams. It's all absolutes.

    That's what's expected from us.

    However, I look at it this way.

    Sitting and zen give me the tools to look at life from all possible angles. No one is 100% bad or evil. No situation is 100% good. Not all pizza is 100% good. There are countless reasons why things are as they are. Even Videla (former Argentinan dictator) or Hussein, despite what history say, weren't 100% evil and perhaps they were in suffering... just like any other sentient being.

    It's not that we live in limbo and can't define sides.

    It's that through our practice we can see sides and options that were hidden before. The more you practice, sit and watch life unfold, the clearer it gets. Trust me.

    Now that I think of it... this is why you are still here, practicing, sewing and being part of Treeleaf. Could it be that something inside you knows better?

    Hope I didn't add to the confusion.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Wonderful Kyonin. For me too, but said much better then I could.

    I use to pour over the stats for the next phone upgrade..now..I am going to be downgrading soon lol. Adding technology or other stuff to my life just doesn't appeal like it use to.

    Gassho, Shawn

  21. #21
    Kyotai
    Guest
    Just to add. Several times over the last 8 years of sitting I have often felt the same...like I am wasting time...whenever I would quit zazen...it wouldn't even be a week and it would feel like the world gets a little bit less less friendly, worsening with time. I always come back.

    Gassho, Shawn

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Mongen (and Jishin and Rich) ... Lovely.

    The Buddha preached endless Sutta and Sutra for endless ears. All Good in the Beginning, Good in the Middle, Good in the End. As Mahayanists and Zen Buddhists, our Path is more the Diamond and Heart Sutras (the Perfection of Wisdom Literature), the Lotus and Huayen ... and also Such which shines right through the words and analysis. I would offer that the Satipattana Sutta (The Way of Mindfulness) was an early means to survey the body and mind, realizing that we are a composite without fixed "selfness", and that all is impermanent and not an object for attachment. The Abidhamma is likewise an excellent analysis (which we make use of too) on the way the mind puts the world together.

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/a...oma/wayof.html

    But let me remind you of the final sections of the Satipattana Sutta, how one is to abide when the analysis is done ... in Calm, Concentration and Equanimity.

    It is very difficult for some folks to just be fully at home and at one with and as what is, and thus the personal human measure of some waste and lack. If one knows how to sit without a sense of waste and lack, totally at home ... then one is home. The Buddha taught of non-attaining in the great Chapter 17 of the Diamond Sutra ...



    Knowing this Non-Attainment of the Buddha Field as one sits, to the marrow of the marrow, is the Attaining of highest, most fulfilled, and awakened mind. Crazy how that works.

    Gassho, J
    Is there a belief in Zen that the Theravada path is a sort of entry level, like an introduction to Annica Dukkha and Anatta?
    Sat today

  23. #23
    Depends on who you ask. Therevadans get a bit riled when their way is called entry level or the "lower vehicle," even though it's described as such often in Mahayana texts. Prefer to think of it as a different perspective on the same Dharma.

    Gassho,
    John

  24. #24
    Nindo
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by dharmasponge View Post
    Is there a belief in Zen that the Theravada path is a sort of entry level, like an introduction to Annica Dukkha and Anatta?
    As a student of both Vipassana and Zen, may I offer this:
    The focus of Theravada practice is to liberate one self. The focus of Zen is to liberate all sentient beings.
    I would not say Theravada is entry level. It is very advanced once you get into the 3rd and 4th foundation of mindfulness, jhanas and all that.
    But then what do you do with the insights? What do you do with this self that dissolves more and more?
    Zen's answer is: service in wisdom and compassion.

    Over the years, I've found it helpful to do retreats with a Vipassana teacher, while my at home practice is Zen. As Hans said, you need to find what works for you.

    Gassho,
    Nindo

  25. #25
    Hi Nindo,

    Thanks for sharing how you combine Vipassana and Zen - very interesting!
    I am currently reading a book by Andreas Altmann in which he writes about his experiences at a Vipassana retreat. Very nice so far.

    Gassho,

    Daitetsu
    no thing needs to be added

  26. #26
    Hi Walter,

    Quote Originally Posted by walter View Post
    I see: "this and not this" "this and that" "neither this nor that" "good yet bad" "attain the non-attainable" "save but nothing to save".

    Could it be that things are presented that "undefined" way so as we can not grab a single hair for not falling into nothingness?
    The thing is: Words must fail if you want to describe IT.
    Hence all those (seemingly) paradoxes...
    As soon as the mind sets in you miss it.

    Or as the old Taoists said:

    "The Tao that can be told
    is not the eternal Tao
    The name that can be named
    is not the eternal Name.

    The unnamable is the eternally real.
    Naming is the origin
    of all particular things."

    [. . .]

    Look, and it can't be seen.
    Listen, and it can't be heard.
    Reach, and it can't be grasped.

    Above, it isn't bright.
    Below, it isn't dark.
    Seamless, unnamable,
    it returns to the realm of nothing.
    Form that includes all forms,
    image without an image,
    subtle, beyond all conception.

    Approach it and there is no beginning;
    follow it and there is no end.
    You can't know it, but you can be it,
    at ease in your own life.
    Just realize where you come from:
    this is the essence of wisdom."


    From the Tao Te Ching (Mitchell translation) - IMHO a must read for any Zen practitioner as well.


    Just keep on practicing and the questions will disappear.
    And above all - relax.

    Gassho,

    Daitetsu
    no thing needs to be added

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindo View Post
    As a student of both Vipassana and Zen, may I offer this:
    The focus of Theravada practice is to liberate one self. The focus of Zen is to liberate all sentient beings.
    Hi Nindo,

    I would just add that that, of course, all sentient beings are one self, one self is all sentient being. So, in Zazen one seeks (and non-seeks) to liberate one self as well.

    Why "non-seek"? Because what "self" or "all sentient beings" to liberate after all? (See the Diamond Sutra passage quote above about such).

    And because there is not "self" or "all sentient beings" to liberate after all, Zen's answer is service in wisdom and compassion to save those sentient beings (and one self) who may not yet realize such fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daitetsu View Post

    The thing is: Words must fail if you want to describe IT.
    Hence all those (seemingly) paradoxes...
    As soon as the mind sets in you miss it.

    Or as the old Taoists said:

    "The Tao that can be told
    is not the eternal Tao
    The name that can be named
    is not the eternal Name.

    The unnamable is the eternally real.
    Naming is the origin
    of all particular things."
    This is so, but Zen Folks generally even avoid to talk in terms of "the eternal" because just another human measure (eternal vs. finite) that we cast away. Perhaps we might say "neither time nor timeless" as closer to the mark, but might cast such away too as ultimately not necessary to say (even that should not be "told"). The Buddha generally cautioned against a belief in some kind of "eternalism", and also against thinking of Buddhism as some meaningless and vacuous "nihilism".

    "The Tao" is also a rather misleading name, because one may believe this to be some "thing" of fixed identity standing apart from us, much like the table across the room. (Even words like "Buddha" or the like carry that risk). So, best to drop such names, categories and divisions too as ultimately dividing and misleading.

    Gassho, J

    PS - Note for Buddhist History Wonks: One will sometimes see words like "eternal" used with regard to Buddha, especially in texts such as the Shurangama Sutra. For example:

    Who would have thought that production and extinction, coming and going are fundamentally the eternal wonderful light of the Tathagata, the unmoving, all-pervading perfection, the wonderful nature of True Suchness! If within the true and eternal nature one seeks coming and going, confusion and enlightenment, or birth and death, one will never find them.

    ... the nature of emptiness is eternal and unchanging ...

    ... the fundamental wonderful mind possessed by all as being eternal and never ceasing to be ...

    ... But because beings, from time without beginning, have pursued forms and sounds and have followed their thoughts as they turn and flow, they still are not enlightened to the wonderful eternal pure nature. ...
    However, it is for such reasons and others that many Buddhist scholars (Dogen too) have been doubtful of the Shurangama, and believe it a very late Sutra composed in China and heavily influence by Daoist viewpoints. (Scholars say "apocryphal" sutra because it was probably composed in China without any earlier version existing in India, although all Sutta and Sutra are human creations in some way).

    http://online.sfsu.edu/rone/Buddhism/authenticity.htm

    Dogen actually seems to have felt the same way, although he also sometimes quoted from passages in the Surangama. He wrote in the Hokyo-ki of a conversation on this with his teacher, Ju-Ching, also not a Surangama fan (pg 6 and 7 here) ...

    http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=m...dia%22&f=false
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-12-2014 at 02:06 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  28. #28
    Hi all

    Going back to the original question, skeptical doubt is one of the five hindrances, along with sloth, restlessness, desire and ill will.

    As many have said, it is not an uncommon experience among sitters. Personally I found it the hardest the deal with as the other four were obviously hindrances but skeptical doubt seemed far more convincing as it related to practice itself and seemed to have my best interests at heart - "Are you sure you are doing the right practice for you?" or "Are you sure you shouldn't be doign something else instead?"

    Seen as a hindrance its intents are more obvious. As Hans said, it may be that you could be doing another practice that is better for you but my prediction is that the same doubts would come up if the swtich is made such as "What if Shikantaza was actually better?".

    Anyway, I am sure there is much traditional material on dealing with the hindrances.

    As far as Theravada being entry level, some Mahayana teachers and traditions have said that. As far as my experience goes, vipassana can get you to the same place as Shikantaza. Also, 'Hinayana' practices can be done with Bodhisattva mind to free all beings and Mahayana practices with self interest. Since Mahayana came later it tends to incorporate all of the paths before it whereas that is not true of Theravada.

    Gassho
    Kokuu

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    Hi all

    Going back to the original question, skeptical doubt is one of the five hindrances, along with sloth, restlessness, desire and ill will.

    As many have said, it is not an uncommon experience among sitters. Personally I found it the hardest the deal with as the other four were obviously hindrances but skeptical doubt seemed far more convincing as it related to practice itself and seemed to have my best interests at heart - "Are you sure you are doing the right practice for you?" or "Are you sure you shouldn't be doign something else instead?"

    Seen as a hindrance its intents are more obvious. As Hans said, it may be that you could be doing another practice that is better for you but my prediction is that the same doubts would come up if the swtich is made such as "What if Shikantaza was actually better?".

    Anyway, I am sure there is much traditional material on dealing with the hindrances.

    As far as Theravada being entry level, some Mahayana teachers and traditions have said that. As far as my experience goes, vipassana can get you to the same place as Shikantaza. Also, 'Hinayana' practices can be done with Bodhisattva mind to free all beings and Mahayana practices with self interest. Since Mahayana came later it tends to incorporate all of the paths before it whereas that is not true of Theravada.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    Kokuu speaks much Wisdom in all the above. There is nothing better or worse about Vipassana meditation vs. Shikantaza, and just different ways with objectives that are not that different really. Same but different, different but just the same.

    Perhaps the aspect which is special about Shikantaza is the greater emphasis on not being a goal oriented practice (although this radical "goallessness" is a means of reaching a kind of "goal" which is best non-reached through radical goallessness! ), sitting as thorough Wholeness and Completeness (although that does not mean there are not aspects of us ... greed anger and ignorance ... that are not in need of repair!). However, I suppose it is possible to sit even Vipassana with such an attitude. Or, for some folks, perhaps there is a time to practice one ... a time to practice the other ... all in their time.

    Gassho, J
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  30. #30
    Thanks Jundo, Hans and everyone else who has taken time again to help.

    I guess my questioning still boils down to the idea of goallessness as Jundo said. I still having this idea at the back of my mind as I walk to the Zafu. Clearly I DO have a goal. Otherwise I would stay in bed (another goal). It's manifestly clear that I/we have a goal in Zen. To quiet neurosis. To experience a calmer life. Or in my case to experience that which Zen seems only ever to imply and intimate about.

    Why does you (anyone) sit?

    _/|\_
    Sat today

  31. #31
    If I may, I offer my dos centavos:

    There was a video of Brad Warner in which he tackles the issue of goalless-ness. I don't remember exactly what he said, but the gist of it seemed to be that everybody sits with a goal/s, but that if we realize that our goals are basically empty then it's okay.

    For me, in the sense that to sit zazen is to manifest the Buddhanature that is already there (much like fanning is to make the already-existing air felt), that is why I practice. I practice expressing what is already there all along. At the same time, I know that I'd like to be more Buddha-like in my life. Now THAT'S a goal. The thing is, my idea of what being more Buddha-like is is just that: an idea. Empty. And (doing my best to channel Jundo, here) I have to simultaneously drop the idea while knowing that it's okay to have that idea. I mean, if it's empty, what is there to drop? But if I think I don't have to drop it, I've veered off in the other direction. So if you come into practice with a goal, that's fine. Don't worry too much; just acknowledge that you have a goal and just sit. Drop the duality of having-a-goal vs. goalless-ness. Beyond having/not-having a goal, that is what it means to be goalless.



    Raffy

  32. #32
    Hi Jundo,

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    The Buddha generally cautioned against a belief in some kind of "eternalism", and also against thinking of Buddhism as some meaningless and vacuous "nihilism".
    Yes, I think it is very important to stress this again and again - it was just a few weeks ago that I met a person who had an "anything is allowed interpretation"...


    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    "The Tao" is also a rather misleading name, because one may believe this to be some "thing" of fixed identity standing apart from us, much like the table across the room. (Even words like "Buddha" or the like carry that risk). So, best to drop such names, categories and divisions too as ultimately dividing and misleading.
    Totally agree with you. The Tao Te Ching has lots of passages that could give one the impression that the Tao was something separate from oneself.
    However, between the lines one can find more:
    "It [the Tao] is beyond is and is not.
    How do I know this is true?
    I look inside myself and see."

    It is basically the same reason why I think that it is not a good idea of Brad Warner to introduce the term "God" in his latest book. Most people (especially in the West) have a certain concept of god that does not correspond with Brad's definition - and thus could create lots of confusion. Anyway that's another topic...

    Theres is a "danger" when studying such texts without guidance.
    And I think that's why it is imporant to have a teacher/guide who can show all the "traps" there are.
    Thank you for doing this, Jundo.


    Gassho,

    Daitetsu
    no thing needs to be added

  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by dharmasponge View Post
    Thanks Jundo, Hans and everyone else who has taken time again to help.

    I guess my questioning still boils down to the idea of goallessness as Jundo said. I still having this idea at the back of my mind as I walk to the Zafu. Clearly I DO have a goal. Otherwise I would stay in bed (another goal). It's manifestly clear that I/we have a goal in Zen. To quiet neurosis. To experience a calmer life. Or in my case to experience that which Zen seems only ever to imply and intimate about.

    Why does you (anyone) sit?

    _/|\_
    Hi (Would you mind to sign a human name to your posts?)

    May I ask you a question? How does one get to London when already standing in Picadilly Circus? Is it by getting on a train trying to find London, or by a radical stopping, seeing and realizing where one already is?

    Of course we have goals and seek realization!! But some goals can only be reached, not by chasing after them, but best by a radical giving up of the chase and realization of what is all along. It is the very idea of chasing and sense of separation that creates separation. When sitting with greed, anger and lack there is greed, anger and lack. When sitting as Peace and Wholeness, greed and anger replaced by equanimity and satisfaction, all is Peace and Wholeness and not an inch of separation. The neurosis dissolves. Rather up to you.

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-12-2014 at 09:35 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  34. #34
    Just lovely, Jundo - thank you!


    Gassho,

    Daitetsu
    no thing needs to be added

  35. #35
    Thanks again.

    So, here I am in 'London'. Complete with all my fears, neurosis, anxieties and this is also my destination? I have nowhere else to go other than right here with all this shit? Any aspiration to change this is demonstrative that I don't understand the utter perfection of pain and suffering in all its completeness, right?

    Am I to be content with no wish to change things? Utterly anaesthetised to my own situation erring on the side of indifference?

    I cannot see the link between wishing to attain a state of mind devoid of suffering and attachment and attaining this by not wanting to attain or even seek it? Are you saying Jundo that if I sit and do nothing it all goes away..?

    Tony (sort of human!)
    Sat today

  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by dharmasponge View Post
    Thanks again.

    So, here I am in 'London'. Complete with all my fears, neurosis, anxieties and this is also my destination? I have nowhere else to go other than right here with all this shit? Any aspiration to change this is demonstrative that I don't understand the utter perfection of pain and suffering in all its completeness, right?

    Am I to be content with no wish to change things? Utterly anaesthetised to my own situation erring on the side of indifference?

    I cannot see the link between wishing to attain a state of mind devoid of suffering and attachment and attaining this by not wanting to attain or even seek it? Are you saying Jundo that if I sit and do nothing it all goes away..?

    Tony (sort of human!)
    Hi Tony,

    I don't believe you yet understand the point, Tony.

    If you sat truly allowing and accepting how things are, what fear, neurosis and anxiety would one have? Fear, neurosis and anxiety are based precisely on fearing or wishing things were or will become some other way than what one fears or wishes. (For example, I fear old age ... but if I instead allow my aging with tolerance, where is the fear?)

    What is more (and this is even harder to understand), in one sits truly allowing and accepting even the fact that, in a particular moment, the mind is temporarily feeling fear, neurosis and anxiety ... then the fear, neurosis and anxiety tend to lose their fire. They become just objects in one's mind, no more to be resisted than the chair across the room. You see, there is a big difference between (1) feeling some fear and just observing and accepting the fact of feeling some fear, and (2) feeling some fear and loathing oneself and the situation because one is feeling the fear. States of mind become less serious, more like passing clouds, and we loose the tendency to magnify the fear by becoming obsessed with it. The “dissatisfaction,” “anxiety,” “disappointment,” or “frustration” of Dukkha ... as your “self” wishes this world to be X, yet this world is not X ... becomes a gap which is closed. (I may still fear aging, for example, but the fear of aging itself becomes just a passing state of mind and I am no longer a prisoner of the fear).

    One finds that, far from being anaesthetised or indifferent, the fear and loathing can be replace by a vibrant embracing of life, and one become engaged and embracing of the world.

    People truly do not know how to sit still (a sitting still that covers both our times of sitting and getting up and about), at one and whole with life. They think it must be some for of passivity and dullness which results, not realizing that what results is a an active reawakening to oneself and this life.

    You may be hearing, but not understanding Tony.

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-12-2014 at 02:46 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  37. #37
    Hi Jundo,

    Totally agree. I simply don't understand.

    I envy those who can differentiate between the mind and it's contents as you have described. If I could experience this for one nano second I would be able to sit in that quiet space and see the dichotomy.

    Currently I experience the whatever thoughts or feelings I have when sitting as 'the mind'. For me (when sitting) they're synonymous.

    I hear your words and to a certain extent understand intellectually. But it feels like I have toothache and you're saying 'no you haven't' or 'just sit with the toothache. My bad metaphor.

    Tony...
    Sat today

  38. #38
    Nindo
    Guest
    Dear Tony,
    I am feeling with you; being entangled in fear and anxiety is very hard and painful.
    It may be helpful to use labelling in your sitting instead of shikantaza, to see more clearly what is happening in the mind. This is the simple practice of mentally noting "there is worry", "there is resistance" and so on (do not use phrases like "I am ..." which lead to more identification).
    Labelling has helped me a great deal when my mind was disturbed, and I learned a lot about my mental patterns. Please note though that I am speaking strictly from my experience, I am not a teacher.

    With metta,
    Nindo

  39. #39
    Hi Richard,

    I feel that there is a difference from a toothache. A toothache is a physical pain more than just a thought, so we have less power to control it (although, even there, meditators have more control than they may realize to allow, alter and not be prisoners of physical pain).

    http://www.wired.com/2011/07/meditat...ul-painkiller/

    But suffering based largely on one's thoughts (such as fear and neurosis) can be changed by changing one's thoughts. There may be an external situation which is causing you anxiety (for example, a fear of flying), but most directly it is your inner reaction to the situation which is the real location of the fear. Change the mind, change the fear ... and one may even learn to fly fearlessly!

    It may be that Vipassana meditation may be more helpful to you, or a combination with Shikantaza. I agree with Nindo.

    Also, like for a toothache ... the best solution is not just to meditate, but to see a dentist!! Same for fears, neurosis etc. So, in combination with Zazen, I would also consult with a doctor or other psychological professional and receive treatment for your anxieties and neurosis. It is quite likely that those other treatments can go hand-in-hand with Zazen! Try all available tools.

    Gassho, J
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  40. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by dharmasponge View Post

    I envy those who can differentiate between the mind and it's contents as you have described. If I could experience this for one nano second I would be able to sit in that quiet space and see the dichotomy.

    Currently I experience the whatever thoughts or feelings I have when sitting as 'the mind'. For me (when sitting) they're synonymous. .
    Hi Tony. You will never , never, think your way out of this. Never. There is nothing else to do but bite the bullet, find a supportive place to practice, and sit every day. Just sit on your ass and notice every time you forget your ass because you're swept up in thinking. Then come back to just sitting on your ass. Just do this over and over again and again, every day... it is extremely tedious, and not in the least entertaining or satisfying. But you do it because there is no other choice. sorry to jump in here..

    Gassho Daizan

  41. #41
    If you sat truly allowing and accepting how things are, what fear, neurosis and anxiety would one have? Fear, neurosis and anxiety are based precisely on fearing or wishing things were or will become some other way than what one fears or wishes.
    I have so much fear around illness at the moment and reading this made me relax. Things are as they are and wishing they were different is not helping me at all.

    Still feel rubbish but with less fear!

    Gassho
    Kokuu

  42. #42
    Hi Tony. You will never , never, think your way out of this. Never. There is nothing else to do but bite the bullet, find a supportive place to practice, and sit every day. Just sit on your ass and notice every time you forget your ass because you're swept up in thinking. Then come back to just sitting on your ass. Just do this over and over again and again, every day... it is extremely tedious, and not in the least entertaining or satisfying. But you do it because there is no other choice. sorry to jump in here..

    Gassho Daizan


    Yup.

    Gassho
    Lisa

  43. #43
    I wish you well Kokuu _/|\_
    Sat today

  44. #44
    This is a great thread. Thanks to all.

    Kind regards. /\
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

    https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

  45. #45
    'It may be that Vipassana meditation may be more helpful to you, or a combination with Shikantaza. I agree with Nindo.'

    Hi Tony - I agree with Jundo and Nindo as above.

    I know very little about Vipassana meditation and have not practiced it myself but 'am just reading a book by Bhante Henepola Gunaratana 'Beyond Mindfullness in plain English' (though it's maybe best to read the previous one first - 'Mindfulness in Plain English') It is a different approach than Shikantaza but I can see the usefullness of it and that these two approaches could work well in combination.

    Gassho

    Willow

  46. #46
    Enjoyed reading this thread. What Kokuu and Daizan say seem to go to it. Hi Tony. My thoughts on this aren't worth a whole lot, but from your recent posts I'd say you're thinking too much about Zen, about sitting, about Buddhism, about Dharma, about enlightenment, about gaining or not, about big spiritual things. My advice would be just do something you enjoy. Maybe go for a walk in the woods or even the city and just go for a walk. See what happens. It's like this: when you go for a walk do you think: "geez, am I walking right? Am I truly enjoying nature? Am I really this nature? Or am I separate from nature? Is nature me? What is that squirrel over there and is that tree a spiritual thing and do I really understand that tree? Do I really get that tree? Do I really understand this walk? What am I doing here, I better stop walking and before I finish this walk, I better figure it out."

    I hope you don't do this on a walk. I hope that on a walk you just go on a walk and maybe you say hello to someone you pass and they smile at you or not and maybe the trees are full of leaves and maybe the sky is blue and has some clouds in it and maybe you hear insects and birds and cars going somewhere and a river, maybe there's a river just going where it goes, a little trash near the river, the sound of water over stones, the sound of wind, loving all things, caring for all things.

    Gassho
    Shōmon

  47. #47
    Lovely, Alan!


    Gassho,

    Daitetsu
    no thing needs to be added

  48. #48
    Alan, pretty much summed up a good walk for me! :/
    Sat today

  49. #49
    Hello dharmasponge ! You happen to exactly describe how i was. The walk full of thoughts that Alan described was me as well. I'm not like that anymore, thanks to therapy and sitting. Sometimes, i get all anxious again and overthink stuff, but this, also, passes.
    You need stupid, dumb and stubborn trust. Just sit everyday, whatever happens. Just do it. Practice evolves. It's also about patience. You cannot control your mind but you can sit with it in every single aspects of it. And it really helps with the anxiety to know experientially that you can stay with it and its no problem. Changes perspective.

    Also, what i found the most cool attitude in dealing with anxiety, on the cushion or off it (harder to do off the cushion) is to really allow it to be there. Not adding thoughts, not removing thoughts, just feeling what is felt, letting it go its course (let it go worse if it has to go worse).

    To offer you a bit of hopeless hope, when i started practicing, i was at the worst anxiety wise. Full of thoughts, full of grief, full of anxiety. It took at least one year of daily practice to just be able to see when i was fooling myself and when i was not, to just be able to see what was thought, what was not, what was linked to what, and to feel it, not to "think" it. Now i begin to be able to see it and drop it - still fooling myself of course, but i feel things are getting a bit clearer ; theres more trust in what i feel. I'm doing far better anxiety wise and have no strong hindrances anymore (i can go wherever i want and enjoy whatever i want - which was far from being the case before). I still fall in old traps from time to time but i can see it more easily. And when i'm in bad shape, i just can be in bad shape. It doesn't destroy me like it did before. I'm with it. I'm it. It's not fun but it's not the end of the world. So really, even if you feel this practice is a waste of time, just do it, for the sake of it.
    Don't be in a hurry to fix everything would be my small deluded advice, and don't hate yourself for overthinking or for anything really.

    Maybe, and i don't know if it really fits in proper "goalless" practice but it's an idea, it would be good to approach practice as not something that is made to "fix problems" (it does not) but as something that may teach you to enjoy things, as they are, even when painful.

    Good sitting !

    Pierre/ugrok
    Last edited by Ugrok; 09-15-2014 at 09:53 AM.

  50. #50

    In a pickle.

    Quote Originally Posted by dharmasponge View Post
    Hello everyone...

    I am getting really concerned that the time I am spending 'just sitting' is a waste of time and effort.

    Effort in the sense that I dedicate time each morning before dawn to train. As 'just sitting' is so radical a practice from what I have become accustomed to I often ruminate about whether its really the way to go!

    Don't get me wrong, I seem to be getting insight(s) of sorts - though not seeking them. Like I am getting a sense of late that I am experiencing the obvious - does that at all make sense to anyone?? Rev Jiyu Kennetts books are helping...

    But there is still that concern that I am not following what I always thought were the words of the Buddha - for instance the Satipattana Sutta and the Abidhamma.

    Yet, still something compels me to just sit?!

    Who said: "You are not truly doing zazen unless your are in a pickle?"
    We are cooking, man, constantly. Zazen is a quick bake oven.
    In gassho.
    "Know that the practice of zazen is the complete path of buddha-dharma and nothing can be compared to it....it is not the practice of one or two buddhas but all the buddha ancestors practice this way."
    Dogen zenji in Bendowa






Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •