Buddha's relics

[Troy]

Have you guys heard of this tour? Supposedly, the relics of Gautama Siddartha and other famous Buddhist are at my local Zendo tonight and over the weekend! Hoping to make it there for a blessing of the relics.

http://www.maitreyarelictour.com/about

[Myosha]

Hello,

Fascinating.

Thank you for the link.


Gassho,
Myosha

[Jundo]

Hi,


Here is what I usually say to such things, keeping in mind that one man's kidney stone is another man's Holy Relic. Who knows.

Bone fragments, teeth, various calcified stones remaining after cremation (now thought to be perhaps actually the remains of kidney stones and gallstones!) and other claimed vestiges of the Buddha (called 'Sariras') are found enshrined all over Asia, now other places too. So much so, that I have sometimes joked that the man must have had a few thousand teeth (well, he is the Buddha after all!). It is not different at all from how various body parts of Catholic Saints and pieces of the Cross can be found enshrined around Europe ... a way to make tangible contact, "evidence" of their spiritual power in being beyond decay and such.

Were they actually part of the person? Are they the person? ... Well, they are what they are, and each is "Buddha" in its way.

One tooth of Buddha is found a short drive from here in Tsukuba, at the giant statue of Amida Buddha located in the next town (sometimes seen on the "sit-a-longs" here). It was a gift from the government of Thailand. It is, though, rather stuck away in a corner there of their little museum, without much particular comment ... because I think the Amida/Pure Land folks did not really know what to make of it (I do not think that such things are central to their beliefs either). But, there it is ... the "Tooth of Gautama Buddha" in a nice gold display case in Ushiku near Tsukuba! When folks come here to visit, I always take them to see it.

But for more information on Sariras, with a bit of a medical bent, this link. NOTE: CONTAINS PHOTOS OF MUMMIES AND KIDNEY STONES, MAYBE A BIT GRAPHIC TO SOME. Perhaps we are dealing with the Buddha's Sacred Kidney Stones, but each contains all the universe nonetheless ...

https://sites.google.com/site/philos...e/sariras.html

Gassho, J

[Sekishi]

It looks like they will make their way through my neck of the woods in October. Not sure how literally I take it all, but I might make the drive to check them out anyway.

Thank you for sharing this info Troy.

Gassho,
Sekishi

[Troy]

The relics looked like little beads. The one shown is Gautama Siddartha's relics. They were donated to the tour by the Dali Lama. I was told enlightened beings grow these on their bones and they give off healing power forever. It was kind of cool to see.

[Geika]

Cool, we get pictures! Thanks for showing, Troy.

[Jundo]

I was told enlightened beings grow these on their bones and they give off healing power forever.

I know a guru in Asia who sells small glass viles with his urine and used bath water to his followers for the same reason, the supposed power. I leave it to your imagination what his followers were to do with that!

I believe it shows that people will believe in anything if you cover it in gold and religion.

Gassho, J

[Ishin]

I think it goes without saying where the most precious Buddha Relic resides. Still I think it is sort of interesting from a cultural perspective.

I am working on creating enlightened beads in my own bones.

Gassho
C

[Joyo]

I was told enlightened beings grow these on their bones and they give off healing power forever.

I know a guru in Asia who sells small glass viles with his urine and used bath water to his followers for the same reason, the supposed power. I leave it to your imagination what his followers were to do with that!

I believe it shows that people will believe in anything if you cover it in gold and religion.

Gassho, J

Wow!!! That is quite something. It would be strange enough if he gave them out to people, claiming they had special powers. But to sell them?? That's just wrong. Reminds me of people in the west like Benny Hinn, promising to heal people, but oh, oh it will more likely happen if you give him money. Very sad actually!

Gassho,
Joyo

[Byokan]

I know a guru in Asia who sells small glass viles with his urine and used bath water to his followers...

Vile indeed!

I think it goes without saying where the most precious Buddha Relic resides.

Gassho
Lisa

[Jundo]

Hi,

I feel that, while recognizing the right of anyone to believe whatever they wish as their religion ... and while recognizing that we are all subject to our own superstitions ... and while recognizing that anything is possible so, who knows, it might be true ...

... I believe it also fine to speak out about and politely protest this kind of likely nonsense and superstition, myth and magic, hokum and hogwash in the Buddhist religion or any religion.

I believe that anyone is free to believe anything, and I am sure belief in relics such as these offer comfort and solace to many. If someone can get comfort from the guru's bathwater, I support that too and ... who knows ... the guru's old tub suds might contain some special power to cure cancer.

But I also believe that such beliefs are primitive and appeal to a kind of ignorance in human beings. I find very little to be "beautiful" or "uplifting" in a tour such as this showing nothing more, perhaps, than that some of our Buddhist ancestors had a bit too much calcium in their diets.

Gassho, Jundo

[Kokuu]

Hi all

There are many dharma doors and faith is one of them. I imagine these kind of relics inspire faith and devotion to practice. Although it is not my path, I would not deride those whose path it is. However, I do have a worry when this kind of practice becomes the main part of the Buddhist path over contemplation and insight.

In Tibetan cultures, the cremated remains of Buddhist masters are picked through for the signs of ringsel which are supposed to show great spiritual attainment and be used to ward off evil spirits. Zen seems to have far less of this kind of relic-based worship but I imagine it is present.

This story (from thedailyenlightenment.com) is a reminder to me of where the true power of relics lies:

Once there was an old woman whose son was a trader. Often he joined a caravan and went to distant India on business. One day his mother said, “Bodh Gaya in India is the place where the perfect Buddha was enlightened. Please bring me a blessed relic from there, a talisman I can use as a focus for my devotions. I shall place it on the altar, pray and bow to it as a material representation of the Buddha’s blessed body.”

Many times she repeated her request.


However, each time her son returned from a business trip to the holy land of India, he realized that he had forgotten his mother’s fervent plea. For several years he failed to bring her what she had asked for. One day, as he was getting ready to depart yet again for India, his mother said to him. “Son, remember my words on your journey. This time, if you do not bring me a relic from Bodh Gaya to use for my prostrations, I shall kill myself in front of you!” He was shocked by her unexpected intensity. Vowing to fulfill his mother’s wish, he left.


At last, after many months, his business affairs were completed and he approached his homeland. Again he had forgotten to acquire for his dear old mother a genuine relic of the Buddha. It was only when he approached his mother’s house that he remembered her words. “What am I going to do?” he thought. “I haven’t brought anything for Mother’s altar. If I arrive home empty-handed, she’ll kill herself!” Looking around in dismay, he spotted the dessicated skull of a dog lying by the roadside. Hastily, he tore a tooth from the jaw and proceeded to wrap it up.

Reaching home, he reverently presented this package to his mother. “Here is one of the Buddha’s teeth,” he said. “I acquired it in Lord Buddha’s native land, India. You can use it as a support for your prayers.” The old woman believed him. She had faith in the tooth, believing it to be from Lord Buddha himself. She constantly offered prostrations and prayers to it as the veritable embodiment of all the Buddhas. Through such practices she found the unshakable peace of mind she had long sought.


Miraculously, from the dog’s tooth emanated countless tiny translucent pearls and swirls of rainbow light. All the neighbours were delighted to find such blessings free for the taking at the old woman’s altar, where they gathered daily. When the old woman finally met death, a canopy of rainbow light surrounded her, and everyone recognized in the beatific smile on her wizened face that she had attained spiritual exaltation. Although a dog’s tooth in itself contains few blessings, the power of the woman’s unswerving faith ensured that the blessings of the Buddha would enter that tooth. Thus a mere dog’s tooth became no different from an authentic relic of the Buddha, and many were uplifted.

Gassho
Kokuu

[Jika]

A beautiful story, thanks, Kokuu.

Very human, how we think we depend on something outside ourselves.

Waiting for a germ of cristallization, like an oyster waiting for a grain of sand...

Good story for Ango, if this focus for practice is to be found far away only, or already here with us now.

Gassho,
Danny

[RichardH]

Personally, I would have no interest in seeing this. It holds no fascination and is of no benefit.

Gassho
Daizan

[Ryumon]

Buddha's relics are all around me: the dirt in my garden, the bees hovering around the lavender, the clouds lazing in the sky, and the air in every breath I take.

Gassho,

Kirk


(Posted from my iPhone; please excuse any typos or brevity.)

[Kyonin]

Buddha's relics are all around me: the dirt in my garden, the bees hovering around the lavender, the clouds lazing in the sky, and the air in every breath I take.

Thank you.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Troy]

I do not believe in the healing powers, just thought it was something cool to see. The tour has been in over 60 countries and viewed by more than a million people. Some of the Buddha relics were donated by the Dalai Lama. I have found out there are many who claim to have relics of Buddha, so who knows if these are true relics. Interestingly, there is a guy in South Korea that will convert cremated remains in to beads for around $800.

http://news.yahoo.com/ashes-beads-so...075118963.html

[Jundo]

I have donated my body to science and organ donation. However, looking in the mirror each morning, I am not sure who would want it.

If they find any kidney stones when cutting me up, I will leave instructions that they should be sent to Dosho for appropriate worship and enshrinement. Given my cholesterol, there is an excellent chance.

Gassho, J

[Troy]

^ lol, Jundo!

[RichardH]

Hi. After discussing this subject with my partner, she looked at this thread and said my post was blunt and rude, and she is usually right.

So this is why one person here does not venerate relics. It is not because I'm a modernist who rejects magic. There is a place where magic can happen, where you can fly and make displays in the sky, but it requires entering the warp-field of a magician, Guru, or Cult. Today going there alone is called having a psychotic break. Having come from a place where the subtle and the magical was "spiritual", practicing Buddhism was for me a release from such mysticism. My favorite image of the Buddha is when he is touching the earth. There is something very powerful and beautiful about that.

This is not to judge Tibetan Buddhism. It is old and venerable and has the authenticity of Indigenous Culture. That has to be respected.

Gassho
Daizan

[Troy]

Deepest bows Daizan. I get where you are coming from

[Daitetsu]

If you want to encounter the most wonderful and at the same time most ordinary thing that can heal you - sit down on your cushion and do nothing.
The Buddha is in the air that you breathe, the water you drink. He is in a fart of a baby, in the smell of a rose - or the classic, a dried shit-stick.

Anyway, don't get me wrong, it's still interesting (I'd also visit the exhibition if it were in the neighborhood, just out of interest). Thank you for sharing this, Troy!

@Daizan:
I don't find your first post rude - it's just honest.

Gassho,

Daitetsu

[Mp]

Deepest bows Daizan. I get where you are coming from

I do too my friends ... =)

Gassho
Shingen

[Jundo]

Personally, I would have no interest in seeing this. It holds no fascination and is of no benefit.

Gassho
Daizan

Was that rude to say "Personally"?

On this subject of magical myth and superstition in the Buddhist religion, I believe in being blunt (although always recognizing that I am not the last word, all that is offered is a viewpoint, that one person's myth is another person's Sacred Teaching which is to be respected, and who is to say as the final word?).

But I believe in saying that, in my humble opinion, a spade is a spade and a kidney stone is a kidney stone.

Kidney stones are sacred too, and are also magic amulets and "miraculous signs and proof of spiritual worth" of a kind to those who can see. Their coming and going somehow reminds me of the old Koan about fitting an Ox through a small hole but, certainly, they are excellent teachers of the wisdom that, in life, "This Too Shall Pass."

By the way, it is not only "Tibetan Buddhists" who have a thing for relics, but Buddhists of all kinds all over the place including Chan, Zen and Soto Zen folks. Dogen tended to widen the definition a bit, however (pg 253 here) ...

http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=4...%20zen&f=false

Gassho, J

[Ongen]

Hi all,

In a Zen context, like the revering of the robe of Kokushi that still happens yearly, why this relic business?

Of couse anyone can do as they like, and there are many streams of buddhism where this happens indeed with valid reasons. But in zen? I think its missing the point by miles.


Gassho

Vincent


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Hi all,

In a Zen context, like the revering of the robe of Kokushi that still happens yearly, why this relic business?

Of couse anyone can do as they like, and there are many streams of buddhism where this happens indeed with valid reasons. But in zen? I think its missing the point by miles.


Gassho

Vincent

I am not so sure, Vincent. Zen is Buddhism, after all, and in China and Japan was practiced with most of the same religious elements and customs as any other form of Buddhism (even if the emphasis was a bit different).

Dogen Zenji tells this story about worshipping relics in Shobogenzo-Zuimonki, which certainly shows that he had mixed feelings on the Practice ...

One day Dogen said,

In the Zoku-kosoden (the book "Continued Biographies of Eminent Monks"), there’s a story about a monk in the assembly of a certain Zen master. The monk worshipped a golden image of the Buddha as well as the relics of the Buddha. Even in the dormitory, he constantly burned incense and prostrated himself before them, honoring and making offerings.

One day, the master said to the monk, “The image and relics of the Buddha which you worship will eventually be harmful to you.”

The monk was not convinced.

The master continued, “This is the doing of the demon Papiyas [Mara the tempter, so called because he causes hindrances to those who follow the Buddhist Way]. Throw them away right now.”

As the monk was leaving in anger, the master shouted after him, “Open the box and look inside!”

Although angry, the monk opened up the box; he found a poisonous snake lying coiled up inside.

As I think about this story, the images and relics of the Buddha should be revered since they are the form and bones left by the Tathagata [Buddha]; nevertheless, it is a false view to think that you will be able to gain enlightenment only through worshipping them. Such a view will cause you to become possessed by the demon and the poisonous snake.

Since the merit of the Buddha’s teaching does not change, reverence of images and relics will certainly bring blessings to human and heavenly beings equal to paying reverence to the living Buddha. In general, it is true that if you revere and make offerings to the world of the Three Treasures, your faults will disappear and you will gain merit; the karma that leads you to the evil realms will be removed, and you will be reborn in the realms of human and heavenly beings. However, it is a mistaken view to expect to gain enlightenment of the dharma in this way.

Since being the Buddha’s child is following the Buddha’s teachings and reaching buddhahood directly, we must devote ourselves to following the teaching and put all our efforts into the practice of the Way. The true practice which is in accordance with the teaching is nothing but Shikantaza, which is the essence of the life in this sorin (monastery) today. Think this over deeply.

http://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/comm...nki/01-01.html

Kosho Uchiyama Roshi was as critical of the Practice of honoring Relics as I am, although he seems to attribute a more critical attitude to Dogen Zenji than was really there perhaps.

http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=T...0dogen&f=false

On can also visit Dogen's grave at Eiheiji, which is a kind of Relic, and the Monks offer incense there daily ...



Gassho, J

[Ongen]

Historically speaking, yes indeed. And I see no harm in remembering and paying respects to our inheritance and lineage and those involved. Burning incense near a grave in remembrance or respect seems a honorable thing to do.

Worshiping, I think, is something entirely different.

Beliefs aside, I agree with what Dogen said above but I feel that any belief or worship might stand in the way of seeing what is there. Isn't it eventually just adding another layer of delusion?

Gassho

Vincent


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Byokan]

Hi All,

thank you for this interesting thread, it has got me thinking.

But I also believe that such beliefs are primitive and appeal to a kind of ignorance in human beings.

Yes, I agree, but I would use the word ‘longing’ rather than the word ‘ignorance’. It seems that people do have a primitive longing for meaning in their lives. I can scoff at these relics, but when I went to the SciFi Museum and saw Captain Kirk’s chair, I found a tear welling in my eye! I think we all have relics. A treasured love letter, a family heirloom, your good-luck Tshirt that is older than your kids. We carry relics inside us as well, memories that sustain us. We treasure these things and turn them over and over, and they become well-worn. These things are magic because they are from another time, from the ashes of something that is gone now, and they connect us to something larger and unseen; something good that gives us hope and comfort. I imagine these stones give some people hope and comfort, and a sense of wonder and possibility. And that’s not a bad place to start on our path, even if it is a form of attachment.


My only problem is with those that seek to exploit this very human longing for meaning, and thereby gain money or power.

Gassho
Lisa

[Risho]

I have no room for this Buddha relic mythology and magic.. yet on the night we euthanized my dog I was praying that she find her way to "heaven" where she can meet her sister who passed a couple years ago, and that I may meet with her again.

One person's magic is another person's medicine I suppose. lol

Gassho,

Risho

P.S. I'm still mostly a person of science

[RichardH]

I've always had a soft spot for Ananda, because he was so faithful and always a bit slow. In the early scriptures the Buddha was always responding to Ananda's comments with something like ...."not so Ananda". I've just always liked him. If I found what I believed was his walking stick, I would treasure it, and be moved by the thought that he walked with it.


But... when I read something like this from the relic tour organizers about some alleged body part....

During 2003, the relics of Ananda changed colour and a new one appeared, much larger than the other relics. Lama Zopa Rinpoche explained that this phenomenon is due to the “good karma of the Relic Tour”. Those who have come to see the relics have done so with a mind of respect and devotion, thus creating the cause resulting in more relics appearing. Five of the small ringsel relics travel separately in the American tour collection

......I don't get a wholesome feeling.

Gassho
Daizan

[Nindo]

Hi Troy,
when the relics came through here, I went to the opening ceremony and then to see the relics the next day. What struck me both days was the number of people attending, way way way more than I would have expected. To have a Buddhist altar in the center of the city, right in the foyer of City Hall, was just nice. The speaker at the opening said that the whole city will be blessed. That was a nice thought. I did my prostrations to the altar, but the relics itself were just weird, honestly. I also didn't bother to queue up to receive a personal blessing from a Tibetan nun. Some of my Unitarian friends came and did go to the blessing. Anyway, may it speak to people's hearts and contribute to peace and wellbeing in our communities!

Gassho,
Nindo

[Jundo]

I can scoff at these relics, but when I went to the SciFi Museum and saw Captain Kirk’s chair, I found a tear welling in my eye! I think we all have relics. A treasured love letter, a family heirloom, your good-luck Tshirt that is older than your kids. We carry relics inside us as well, memories that sustain us.

Never before has anything I have said been so thoroughly and lovingly shot down in one short sentence!

Yes, of course.

From the Next Generation Episode "Relics". Scotty comes back from the past (he was caught in the Transporter for all those years).



Still, it is also important not to fall into the trap of Relics.

Gassho, J

[Ishin]

For me it comes down to this. If relics can help inspire people to seek the Buddha within themselves, ( and everyone else too), then this could a good motivational tool. If on the other hand, people see the relics as sacred special things that places Buddha nature only on the outside, only as some larger than life idolatry then this misses the mark certainly. The practice is the real gem. Perhaps, however, people looking from outside seeing all this as nonsense might drive sincere seekers away. Jundo, surely all your dharma props will be worth something.

Gassho
C

[Jundo]

For me it comes down to this. If relics can help inspire people to seek the Buddha within themselves, ( and everyone else too), then this could a good motivational tool. If on the other hand, people see the relics as sacred special things that places Buddha nature only on the outside, only as some larger than life idolatry then this misses the mark certainly. The practice is the real gem. Perhaps, however, people looking from outside seeing all this as nonsense might drive sincere seekers away. Jundo, surely all your dharma props will be worth something.

Gassho
C

My bathwater is for sale.

Gassho, J

[pinoybuddhist]

Don't forget your beard and head trimmings - gotta save those every time you shave. There's a store somewhere in Harujuku that sold Beatles' locks. Even within just a year of saving, I bet we'll have acquired enough merchandise for an online Treeleaf store!


Raf

[Troy]

Hi Troy,
when the relics came through here, I went to the opening ceremony and then to see the relics the next day. What struck me both days was the number of people attending, way way way more than I would have expected. To have a Buddhist altar in the center of the city, right in the foyer of City Hall, was just nice. The speaker at the opening said that the whole city will be blessed. That was a nice thought. I did my prostrations to the altar, but the relics itself were just weird, honestly. I also didn't bother to queue up to receive a personal blessing from a Tibetan nun. Some of my Unitarian friends came and did go to the blessing. Anyway, may it speak to people's hearts and contribute to peace and wellbeing in our communities!

Gassho,
Nindo

Hi Nindo,

Thank you for sharing I did my daily Zazen at the temple and bathed the baby Buddha. The line was moving super slow and my wife was steadily texting me about some minor disaster so I did not make it all the way around the table. I had never bathed the baby Buddha before, but I enjoyed the ritual. The Unity Temple where the relics were displayed is an interesting place. They have both Christian and Buddhist services there. Each with their own sancuary.