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Thread: A Discussion About Race, Gender and Class

  1. #1
    Treeleaf Priest / Engineer Sekishi's Avatar
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    A Discussion About Race, Gender and Class

    Tricycle magazine recently featured article by Brent R. Oliver called "White Trash Buddhist". I found that it (unfortunately) highlights a very real issue with Dharma in the west, namely that race, gender, and class are deeply embedded in our culture, and are thus also part of the practice experience. The article is important, as are many of the comments.

    http://www.tricycle.com/feature/white-trash-buddhist

    I left a brief comment, and talked about the Treeleaf experience (without mentioning it by name -- I did not feel it would be right to act as the marketing arm of our Sangha in that particular forum).

    However, it also spurred me to open a discussion here at Treeleaf. Compared with the few "brick and mortar" Sanghas I've come across, I think Treeleaf is a fairly diverse group of practitioners, and the fact that our teachers give their teachings freely is a beautiful thing.

    I also do not think we can rest on our laurels. The simple fact that we need an internet capable device, and a fast enough connection to participate in video streaming / hangouts means that we are self-selecting from the privileged side of the "digital divide". While I do not think there is much we can do about this fact (we cannot buy devices and internet for all), we must be mindful of this fact. For me personally, I feel it means we should also work even harder in other ways to be inclusive.

    I am a white middle class male from a wealthy nation. I have a college degree, and work in the software industry. I have enough free time to participate, and enough disposable income to buy books, tablets and phones, and can look at many Sanghas and say "most people here look like me". I am exactly the kind of person for whom access to Dharma in the west is easy. I will not say "I am part of the problem", but I will say that I am representative of it. I doubt it escaped the notice of many of us that those who were able to attend the recent retreat "in person", were male. Most of us white males, from so called "first world" nations.

    I want to be clear, I love Treeleaf. I am deeply grateful for our teachers who give of themselves and the Dharma freely. But I also want to make sure we are doing what we can to be as inclusive as we can - this is also in keeping with the changes here at Treeleaf, and Jundo's stated desire to make the Dharma more widely available.

    Perhaps there is nothing we can do but practice, vowing to save all beings. At the very least, I think we must be mindful of our privilege, but is there more that we can do? What do you all think?

    Deep bows,
    Sekishi
    Sekishi | 石志 | He/him | Better with a grain of salt, but best ignored entirely.

  2. #2
    Hello,

    Personally, distinction is a form of clinging and attachment.

    Clinging and attachments can be distracting.


    Gassho,
    Myosha
    "Recognize suffering, remove suffering." - Shakyamuni Buddha when asked, "Uhm . . .what?"

  3. #3
    Treeleaf seems to be growing, I don't expect it to stop. I trust that it will naturally reach those who spend even a little time browsing Dharma related sites. Access to the internet is growing, too.

    Gassho
    求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
    I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

  4. #4
    Treeleaf Unsui Shugen's Avatar
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    Hi Sekishi,

    What you post is something that I have been considering as well. I don't have any answers (of course) but it is a concern of mine. How to be more inclusive? I believe that what we do here at Treeleaf is a great start, the question is "what is the next step?". Or, "Is there a next step?" - "If you build it, will they come?'. (A quote from the movie Field of Dreams)
    I also believe that Treeleaf will continue to grow. Interesting times....

    Gassho,

    Shugen
    Meido Shugen
    明道 修眼

  5. #5
    Sekishi,

    Just so you know, these issues have been and are being discussed and considered by Jundo and the Unsui so we are aware of such things. And as we talked about in Virginia, I'd like to have us all think about whether the retreat was a place where people of different genders, ethnicities, and economic status would have been comfortable. Not as a criticism of what has already happened since that was a grand experiment into the unknown. But more for what to do in the future. It is an important issue to be sure and I'm glad to see you bring it up here.

    Gassho,
    Dosho

  6. #6
    You know-- there's this pervasive myth in this country (sorry talking about the US here) that getting a college education would guarantee a successful career. That is simply not the case. Unfortunately it seems that spending 1000's of dollars on an Art History degree isn't a wise use of capital if your goal is to make it big in business. I'm not saying that it's a worthless degree, I have a Bachelor's in Philosophy, but that is separate from actually getting a career. In fact, let's say you get a degree in Computer Science... it's still the same to me in terms of uselessness. You'll learn more on the job in 6 months than by getting a 4 year degree in Computer Science. I think in most cases, college is just a means of delaying entry into the work force.

    That being said, and I know this writer got ejected from school, I think his point is baseless but true (I know that makes no sense, but follow me. lol). Does he have a pillow? He can sit and practice. He doesn't need to go to retreats somewhere to realize what's right under his nose. I would also add, that Buddhism is a way of practicality, and if you can't afford insurance or you are living paycheck to paycheck, then you should focus on becoming more financially stable in your life. I mean you have got to take care of yourself. So sure, you may not be able to practice where you ideally think there is "real" or "true" practice, but your practice now is the best practice you can ever get because it's yours and it's real.

    If you are a writer, and you are complaining that you can't pay the bills, you can either yell at the wind or you can try to do something else where you can support yourself.

    Now that is assuming you are of the means to do so. If you can support yourself, then you have no excuse but to do so. Of course there are a lot of people who need help and should by all means get it. There's no question there at all.

    But to complain that you don't have access to the Dharma because you aren't in a specific wage bracket is bullshit. Now I grant you that you may not be able to go to the destinations that you want to go to practice, but again if you don't have health insurance that issue is more paramount than being able to be in the presence of your ideal Tibetan guru or what have you.

    Gassho,

    Risho
    Last edited by Risho; 09-02-2014 at 09:17 PM.

  7. #7
    Treeleaf Priest / Engineer Sekishi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rculver View Post
    How to be more inclusive? I believe that what we do here at Treeleaf is a great start, the question is "what is the next step?". Or, "Is there a next step?" - "If you build it, will they come?'. (A quote from the movie Field of Dreams)
    Thank you Shugen. You said it better in one line than I managed to in a few paragraphs.

    Deep bows,
    Sekishi
    Sekishi | 石志 | He/him | Better with a grain of salt, but best ignored entirely.

  8. #8
    There is that cliche of a "Buddhist lifestyle". It has something to do with being "spiritual people" who are responsible for nothing but their own wellness project, and yet seem so burdened by it. There is something to it, but not here at Treeleaf. The commitment here to practice that includes our responsibilities, in our world as it is, is beautiful and inspiring. ...and then there is the geographical spread.

    Just 2 cents.

    Gassho
    Daizan

  9. #9
    Nindo
    Guest
    I think Treeleaf is a lot more inclusive than brick and mortar sanghas; just think of our homebound members. As Dosho said, the gender issue has been discussed at length, including why there are no female unsui. After many voices were heard, the conclusion was Treeleaf is doing nothing wrong, is welcoming and inclusive, and no change needed.

    Who shows up, who feels compelled to stay, who will make a bigger commitment like jukai or homeleaving, is a mysterious dynamic/ dance/ wondrous game of cause and effect. Nobody will be an unsui or retreatant or whatever just to fill the quota of women/ LBGT/ coloured/ etc.

  10. #10
    Treeleaf Priest / Engineer Sekishi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nindo View Post
    I think Treeleaf is a lot more inclusive than brick and mortar sanghas; just think of our homebound members. As Dosho said, the gender issue has been discussed at length, including why there are no female unsui. After many voices were heard, the conclusion was Treeleaf is doing nothing wrong, is welcoming and inclusive, and no change needed.
    Thank you for this Nindo. Was this something discussed in the forum? I just did few searches like "female unsui", but did not turn up much.

    Also, I want to make it very clear that I am not arguing that Treeleaf is doing anything wrong. Quite the contrary. I think that the work that our teachers and the senior students and Unsui have done here is amazing, and does set Treeleaf apart as a revolutionary Sangha. My question is simply "Is there anything we can do better?"

    Gassho,
    Sekishi
    Sekishi | 石志 | He/him | Better with a grain of salt, but best ignored entirely.

  11. #11
    Sekishi,

    There was a private discussion among female members around a year ago.

    Gassho
    求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
    I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

  12. #12
    Mp
    Guest
    Thank you Sekishi for this discussion ... I feel we can always improve even when we think we've got it. Life is always changing and I feel it is important to have our hearts and minds open to that change.

    "Is there anything we can do better?"
    Sometimes this comes right at the moment and there is no preparation, it just happens. But like I said above, if we are open to that change or trying to do better ... we will do just that. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

  13. #13
    This is a wide-ranging and somewhat huge issue, and doesn't just have to do with Treeleaf or any Buddhist community, but has much more to do with what I sometimes like to call "polite racism." We live in a country that is very, very much divided along lines of race; it's not enforced, obviously but every state I've lived in in the South (that's three: Mississippi, Tennessee, and South Carolina), every one of them has had white neighborhoods and black neighborhoods. The city I live in is basically split between white and black, but you might not know this if you were in downtown Spartanburg. There are exceptions, of course, but it's rare. The city has done a wonderfully awful job (and I like the city I live in) of putting the minority communities on the outside. This has been true of almost every city in the South I've lived in, and most places in the North as well. So, this thing here at Treeleaf is just a symptom of much larger issue that has to do with race and class.

    To this issue, I sometimes have heard the response of "distinction is a form of clinging and attachment," and I don't mean any rudeness, but I don't find that helpful. Many people coming from poverty and oppression have struggled for years and years finding food, work, family, identity in general, and finding some uniqueness in their culture, and there's nothing wrong with that.

    It's a difficult issue that needs our care and attention, though I have no thoughts about what to do beyond that. Thanks for bringing up this topic, Sekishi

    Gassho
    Shōmon

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Sekishi View Post

    I left a brief comment, and talked about the Treeleaf experience (without mentioning it by name -- I did not feel it would be right to act as the marketing arm of our Sangha in that particular forum).
    Hi Sekishi,

    Actually, that is one aspect I believe we can do better in order to be more inclusive. I do not believe in "advertising and marketing", with the meaning of trying to "sell" and persuade someone to come join or buy something. We do not proselytize. We do not hurd people in (nor chase after folks who choose to leave and find something else).

    But I do believe in "providing notice and information", in order so that people who might benefit (in our case, Zen practitioners busy with jobs, family responsibilities, health issues that prevent attendance at a local Sangha) can know that resources are available.
    That is merely letting people know that we exist as an option if they have need.

    Even now, almost every week, I am contacted by someone who had been searching for such a place, but never knew there was such a place. Most are people who simply cannot get to a local group but feel they need Community, and had not heard of us until stumbling on some mention by chance.

    For that reason, I do believe in providing information that we are "out there". We do not solicit or require donations in any way (this Sangha and all its activities are both free and freeing! ). However, we do accept voluntary donations should someone feel they wish, in whatever amount someone can afford, without obligation, according to ability, and as one feels in one’s heart. Here is our place and policy about donations:

    http://www.treeleaf.org/donations-to-treeleaf-sangha/

    I do plan to use a portion of such donations for online "notices" at various Buddhist websites making our resources known. I try to have something simple, that gets the point across, without stepping over the line into an "advertisement". Here is one we have had at SweepingZen for a few years.



    I also see nothing wrong about posting about our mission at another Forum or the like when someone is looking for such a resource. Here is what I usually say ...

    Hello. This article underlines the very reasons we created our fully online Zen Practice Center at Treeleaf Sangha, and I wish other Buddhist groups would follow suit (our focus at Treeleaf is Shikantaza). Our mission statement reads, "Treeleaf Zendo was designed specifically as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online." But, really, we are a Sangha just about like any Sangha, and the place feels like a small, intimate group of people who sit together and support each other in practice. That is the way it should be. We are now in our 8th year, and require no donation or fee. Further, the emphasis of our Practice is a "monastery" without walls, in which the Buddha’s Truths may be practiced any place and the family kitchen, children’s nursery, office or factory where we work diligently and hard, the hospital bed, volunteer activity or town hall are all our “monastery” and place of training. In December, we will even be holding our 7th 2-day, fully online Winter Retreat, in which people from around the world will be sitting together by video connection right from their homes, maintaining a retreat practice amid the world. The Dharma should be available any place, right where we sit! Gassho, Jundo Cohen, Treeleaf Sangha
    I hope we are a place where all may enter and Sit freely, without consideration of economic or social restrictions of any kind! Letting people know about availability, but without any pressure or propaganda, is one step.

    Gassho, Jundo
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-03-2014 at 04:07 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  15. #15
    Yugen
    Guest
    Accessibility is important - Zen in the northeast US is a very white and affluent luxury for many (I generalise greatly I know) - but there is a point. The teachings have to be accessible too - when you are working with a detoxing young male who is violent he doesn't have the time for koans or "mu" - you have to make something available to him that creates enough space that something different can be introduced into the dynamic. Bearing, non-threatening posture, presence, patience, love - and yes, firmness and a bit of an edge when necessary - these things burn through the clouds of delusion like the bright sun - but one must be determined and not have an outcome in mind - just complete and total commitment to the present and being with that person. Just as we are responsible for one another in our practice, when working with a young person in crisis (even if they are violent) we have great responsibility for the outcome - we are responsible for their safety as well as our own. In addition to children's behavioral health work, I am in the process of training as an inmate mentor in the state prison - practice has to be pretty immediate and direct to be of any use. And I receive more than I give from everyone I work with. This work all grew, by the way, from an Engaged Projects / Global Day of Service volunteer opportunity of three hours a week (there's my pitch Shingen!). It's my life, my practice now.

    I know a fellow who teaches Bagua in abandoned lots in Brooklyn - wearing a hoodie - and does not charge tuition. An open air dojo. They move from lot to lot every few days because they get chased off. I would like my zen practice and teaching to be like that one day.

    Our teachings have be made available in a way that can be readily accessed by people who need them most - by communicating in a culturally and situationally relevant context and appearing in neighborhoods where you would not expect to find a zendo or teacher......

    Just my opinion, my thoughts only.

    Deep bows
    Yugen
    Last edited by Yugen; 09-03-2014 at 01:51 AM.

  16. #16
    I don't have anything to add or any grand advice other than I support this line of thinking and actions.
    If I'm already enlightened why the hell is this so hard?

  17. #17
    Treeleaf Priest / Engineer Sekishi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Actually, that is one aspect I believe we can do better in order to be more inclusive. I do not believe in "advertising and marketing", with the meaning of trying to "sell" and persuade someone to come join or buy something. We do not proselytize.

    But I do believe in "providing notice and information", in order so that people who might benefit (in our case, Zen practitioners busy with jobs, family responsibilities, health issues that prevent attendance at a local Sangha) can know that resources are available.
    That is merely letting people know that we exist as an option if they have need.

    I also see nothing wrong about posting about our mission at another Forum or the like when someone is looking for such a resource.
    I wholeheartedly agree, and have posted links and info in other forums in the past. There was something about that particular thread that made me feel uncomfortable about linking directly to Treeleaf. Maybe I was just being a goof. ^_^

    Generally speaking, I think the more we can do to increase the presence of Treeleaf the better, and would love to help however I can.

    Gassho,
    Sekishi
    Sekishi | 石志 | He/him | Better with a grain of salt, but best ignored entirely.

  18. #18
    Hi All,

    I don't have any answers. But I'm glad the discussion is ongoing. This issue has weighed on my heart.

    Gassho
    Lisa

  19. #19
    Dear all

    This is something I have been aware of for quite some time. Retreats I have been on tend to contain the same kind of people - white, middle class and well-educated (a demographic that includes myself). The mere fact that it is so probably puts off other people regardless of anything else.

    Much of the writing of Buddhism can be deliberately high-brow and obtuse. If there were one thing we could do to become more attractive to a wide range of people it might be to keep out language simple rather than overly Zenny. Of course, at times, when discussing Dogen and such like, there is no alternative but to be obtuse but generally the more we can talk in plain English, the more accessible the path will be to a wide range of people. This does not mean oversimplifying matters but rather not overcomplicating them. I think of writers such as Joko Beck and Pema Chodron - their books are easy to read but in no way dumb down the path. Jundo's path of no kesa should also open things up to more folk who could benefit from Treeleaf.

    Thank you for bringing this up, Sekishi.

    Gassho
    Kokuu

  20. #20
    Our teachings have be made available in a way that can be readily accessed by people who need them most

    Gassho,
    Danny

  21. #21
    Hi Kokuu,

    If there were one thing we could do to become more attractive to a wide range of people it might be to keep out language simple rather than overly Zenny. ... generally the more we can talk in plain English, the more accessible the path will be to a wide range of people. This does not mean oversimplifying matters but rather not overcomplicating them.
    Wow, I think this is such a great point, and definitely something to keep in mind as one expression of Right Speech. That is, speech which seeks not to cause division. Thank you.

    Gassho
    Lisa

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    Much of the writing of Buddhism can be deliberately high-brow and obtuse. If there were one thing we could do to become more attractive to a wide range of people it might be to keep out language simple rather than overly Zenny. Of course, at times, when discussing Dogen and such like, there is no alternative but to be obtuse but generally the more we can talk in plain English, the more accessible the path will be to a wide range of people. This does not mean oversimplifying matters but rather not overcomplicating them. I think of writers such as Joko Beck and Pema Chodron - their books are easy to read but in no way dumb down the path.
    Yes, such is a tricky and slippery oh so fine line. One need not be overly obtuse (frankly, I find many Teachers out there who are so, not because Zen is 'Beyond Explication', but because they themselves do not seem a Clear Picture ... or, even worse, are hiding behind the mysterious sounding phrases so that they project the image of old dead Zen Masters ... ) ...

    ... but on the other hand, how do you explain nicely and sweetly to someone that, "Well, yes you exist, but then again you don't, but then you do and don't ... the Cypress Tree In The Garden!" One must never forget that we are dealing with hot iron that burns right through so many of our "common sense" assumptions about who we are and what is what. Our Koan Reflection in our "Beyond Words and Letters Book Club" is an example of how slippery this can be ...

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/forum...TERS-BOOK-CLUB

    Tricky Business, but all one can do is one's best.

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-03-2014 at 07:16 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  23. #23
    Yugen
    Guest
    I think the question is not only how we make Treeleaf more accessible, but how we take our practice into the world.... into difficult places..... and make the teachings accessible through our actions.....

    Deep bows
    Yugen

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Yugen View Post
    I think the question is not only how we make Treeleaf more accessible, but how we take our practice into the world.... into difficult places..... and make the teachings accessible through our actions.....

    Deep bows
    Yugen
    Hi Yugen,

    There are three kinds of Dana (Donations, Giving) that the Buddha spelled out ... some entail financial and material aid, some the lending of a shoulder or other physical aid to those in need, and some the providing of access to the Teachings of Dharma and a Place for Practice. We must not neglect any of the three.

    Three kinds of gift are mentioned in Buddhism, namely:

    1: Amisa dana: The gift of material things,
    2: Abhaya dana: The fearless gift of life,
    3: Dhamma dana: The gift of real Truth...

    Amisa dana: – or the gift of material things is practised by people
    of all religions and is very common. Food, clothes and houses are
    given to people of little means or to refugees through various
    religious and social organizations. It is, no doubt, a good thing to
    satisfy the hunger of the starving & the yearning of the thirsty.
    This type of donation is highly recommended in Buddhism and
    is called the Amisa dana. (The donation of material things).

    Next comes the Abhaya dana: - or giving life to those whose lives
    are in danger caused by fire, water or enemies. Sometimes we
    hear of people, who are about to die due to lack of blood.
    To donate blood and save another human's life is indeed a great
    thing. Donation of eyes and kidneys is also highly appreciated
    and comes under Abhaya dana – fearless donation of life.

    The last one: Dhamma dana: - or the gift of Truth of the Doctrine
    is said to be the highest of all donations on earth. Why so?
    Because it opens the Door to the Deathless Dimension!
    There is no other giving, which is even remotely comparable.
    Dhamma-dana, the gift of the noble teachings, is said by the Buddha to excel all other gifts (Dhammapada, 354). Those who expound his teachings — monks who preach sermons or recite from the Tipitaka, teachers of meditation — frequently share the Truth, thus practicing the highest kind of generosity. Those of us who are not qualified to teach the Dhamma can give the gift of the Dhamma in other ways. We can donate Dhamma books or pay for the translation or publication of a rare or new manuscript propagating the Buddha-Word. We can discuss the Dhamma informally and encourage others to keep precepts or to take up meditation. We might write an explanation of some aspect of the Dhamma for the benefit of others. Giving cash or labor to a meditation center or helping support a meditation teacher can also be considered the gift of the Dhamma, as the purpose of the center and the teacher is the transmission of the Buddha's teaching.
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/a.../wheel367.html

    I believe that sometimes we need to give a fish, sometimes to teach a man to fish ... sometimes we need to rescue a drowning man ... and sometimes we need to teach a man to be as Free and Boundless as the Ocean ...

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-03-2014 at 01:19 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  25. #25
    I think the question is not only how we make Treeleaf more accessible, but how we take our practice into the world.... into difficult places..... and make the teachings accessible through our actions.....
    Yes! Your actions on this front are greatly inspiring, Yugen. We don't have to talk dharma to spread the teachings. Kindness is universally received and understood.

    The Global Service Days are excellent seeds for this and in your case have clearly ripened into something mature and wonderful.

    Gassho
    Kokuu

  26. #26
    Mp
    Guest
    Thank you Jundo for these explanations of the difference areas of Dana. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

  27. #27
    Yugen
    Guest
    Jundo And Kokuu,
    Thank you both.

    Deep bows
    Yugen

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Myosha View Post
    Hello,

    Personally, distinction is a form of clinging and attachment.

    Clinging and attachments can be distracting.


    Gassho,
    Myosha
    I believe this is true in the absolute. But in this world where we live and work, where a door is actually a door, (and not a chain of events linked together to form the illusion of a door) we have very real distinctions.

    There is a very real problem in the modern western world when it comes to access to the dharma. If you plan to attend a retreat at Zen Mountain Monastery these days, you must be able to A) fork over the hefty registration fee B) take time away from work and family and C) be able to relate to people from an entirely different socio-economic background than you might live in.

    Dharma Centers across the U.S. are filled with highly educated, upper middle class artists and licensed psycho therpaists. Not that there is anything wrong with them, but walking into that world from a working class background can be very off putting. Never mind the financial task required to attend a weekend to ten day retreat. That of course on top of your membership dues.

    I think we need to find a way to make the dharma less, to be blunt, "white" and less "douchey ".

  29. #29
    I think the important thing is that current teachers recognize the problem and begin to empower the types of students who can "take the teachings to the streets". There are folks coming out of less typical backgrounds, committing to this practice. They are the only ones who can truly relate to "their people". An ex con, a combat veteran, a former gang member, a farmer, a truck driver, they can all teach the dharma without "dumbing it down" because they actually speak the language. I truly believe it's only so "high brow" because so many teachers and practitioners are "high brow". That's their language. The dharma itself is simple, and can be taught just as effectively in "low-brow" crowds.

  30. #30
    Hi,

    I am going to speak very frankly here:

    As Thich Nhat Hanh, Bernie Glassman, Robert Aitken and many other "engaged" Buddhists remind us, Buddhism and social action can go hand in hand. I also support making these teachings available to all people everywhere.

    But it is also true that Zen Buddhism ... not just now, but in the past ... has always been something of an "elite" practice. Throughout its history, Zen practice has been rather limited even in the Buddhist world ... a small, minority, economically "elitist" practice ... limited to those folks who had the time, energy, basic literacy and access to doctrine and teachings and teachers (this is "A Way Beyond Words and Letters" ... but even the legendary 'illiterate' 6th Ancestor had folks read to him and mastered the basic doctrines and teachings of Buddhism and Zen), who possessed a personal calling to pursue the way, philosophical bent, dedication to practice, simple financial and social freedom and such ... time to "sit on their ass" literally! ... to undertake Zen practice.

    In the old days ... and even today ... the Buddhism of the masses involved people worshiping and praying to the Buddhas & Bodhisattvas (chanting to Amida Buddha and such) who can help keep the worshiper and those they love and pray for healthy, happy and free of harm ... plus a "pie in the sky when we die" trip to heaven after this life ... (the same as most -any- religion in the world, any church or temple from Boston to Bangalor).

    In the West, except for the Soka Gakkai (SGI), there has been great difficulty in attracting economic and social minorities and the less advantaged as converts to Buddhism. The Soka Gakkai, an offshoot of Nichiren Buddhism, has been described as preaching a kind of "prosperity Buddhism" not unlike the "prosperity gospel" that one may find in many American Christian churches these days ... that good chanting will bring good results to one's bank account, career success and life in general. For that reason, they are much more evangelical than most other Buddhist groups in the west, and have been rather aggressive in seeking converts, through the promise of benefits through the power of the "Nam-myoho-renge-kyo" chant to bring all manner of this worldly and next worldly rewards, not unlike the evangelical emphasis on faith in and chanting "Praise Jesus". Nothing wrong with that, however, and everyone needs the medicine they need.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...022301394.html

    http://buddhism.about.com/od/nichire...sokagakkai.htm

    That being said, I am not sure how easy it would be to make Zen and Zazen Practice attractive to most people in society without promising much of what Amida Buddha or the Soka Gakkai offers, something more immediate and worldly than the abstract benefits of Zen Practice.

    Gassho, Jundo
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-03-2014 at 05:07 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  31. #31
    I don't know. I find the Soka Gokai group to be "pretty elitist" as well. The Soka Gokais near me are from the wealthiest most affluent area in the county. And the Pure Land Church of New York is on Riverside Drive, where the wealthiest people in the world live. There are Zen Centers in the South Bronx and Yonkers. I also think, Zen does have something to offer, and not everyone, especially people living in very harsh realities, are looking for pie in the sky solutions. I grew up in a harsh environment, spent a good part of my life homeless, was involved in some pretty heavy and violent stuff, and from that I grew very skeptical of "faith based" solutions to problems. I think zen offers a real answer to cutting through the bullshit, and I believe that's accessible to people of all walks of life.

    Just my opinions of course. And my opinions and $2.75 will get me on the subway.
    Last edited by Daijo; 09-03-2014 at 02:17 PM. Reason: added content

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Daijo View Post
    I don't know. I find the Soka Gokai group to be "pretty elitist" as well. The Soka Gokais near me are from the wealthiest most affluent area in the county. And the Pure Land Church of New York is on Riverside Drive, where the wealthiest people in the world live. There are Zen Centers in the South Bronx and Yonkers. I also think, Zen does have something to offer, and not everyone, especially people living in very harsh realities, are looking for pie in the sky solutions. I grew up in a harsh environment, spent a good part of my life homeless, was involved in some pretty heavy and violent stuff, and from that I grew very skeptical of "faith based" solutions to problems. I think zen offers a real answer to cutting through the bullshit, and I believe that's accessible to people of all walks of life.

    Just my opinions of course. And my opinions and $2.75 will get me on the subway.
    It might be accessible, but that doesn't mean that people know that such access is even available. I think there is a very real, well, difficulty of "white buddhism" in the US. It's cool that Treeleaf is wonderfully inclusive and has people from all over the globe and different ethnicities, but one striking thing is this: all the places I've practiced at, including Treeleaf, I don't think I've practiced with one black American male or female. That seems odd, especially for the place I live in.

    In any case though, you are then, in my humble and limited opinion, the exact sort of person who could, potentially, spread zen stuff to others in situations like yours. Because you can connect and share based on similar experiences. I think what others are saying is totally valid: coming to zen practice, even from a white, educated, middle-class situation was a kind of leap for me. It was not a huge leap, though, because I'd already studied it in school and had a general interest in it. I imagine it being a much larger leap for someone who's never really had such access/opportunity. So, someone to help familiarize like yourself seems like a pretty good idea.

    Just a few thoughts. Good discussion.

    Gassho
    Shōmon

  33. #33
    The single minded obsession to find out what this is, that existential intensity, and the sense of birthright that I can realize it... that is not typical. These qualities isolated me as a kid. It was like having a different kind of brain. Just yesterday there was a big storm, a supercell with a slowly rotating base, sitting right over midtown. It was awesome beyond words.... and no one looked up!. I stood there on the street taking this in and paying attention to the busy corner, and no one looked up. There is a sensitivity to the sublime, an aliveness to the vital mystery of sheer existence, that is behind my devotion to the dharma. One reason I need sangha is to be with "my own kind" in that away. It is not about being elite, but is about not walking this endless journey of discovery alone.

    Gassho Daizan

  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by alan.r View Post
    It might be accessible, but that doesn't mean that people know that such access is even available. I think there is a very real, well, difficulty of "white buddhism" in the US. It's cool that Treeleaf is wonderfully inclusive and has people from all over the globe and different ethnicities, but one striking thing is this: all the places I've practiced at, including Treeleaf, I don't think I've practiced with one black American male or female. That seems odd, especially for the place I live in.
    And here lays the problem. The truth is, there are different Americas. though we live in the same country and fly the same flag, we experience completely different existences. Unfortunately we don't all understand each other, because our perspectives are so different. This is why the teachers, of any practice or religion, need to be from the same world that the student lives and breathes in.

    I do believe Zazen has the potential to transform lives. I don't think it will be transmitted across cultural and class structural lines easily though, without empowerment/transmission between the right teachers/students. I think the recognition of who the potential teachers are is the key.

    Gassho,

    Daijo

  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Daizan View Post
    The single minded obsession to find out what this is, that existential intensity, and the sense of birthright that I can realize it... that is not typical. These qualities isolated me as a kid. It was like having a different kind of brain. Just yesterday there was a big storm, a supercell with a slowly rotating base, sitting right over midtown. It was awesome beyond words.... and no one looked up!. I stood there on the street taking this in and paying attention to the busy corner, and no one looked up. There is a sensitivity to the sublime, an aliveness to the vital mystery of sheer existence, that is behind my devotion to the dharma. One reason I need sangha is to be with "my own kind" in that away. It is not about being elite, but is about not walking this endless journey of discovery alone.

    Gassho Daizan
    This is existence from your perspective, and you are perhaps just as incapable of perceiving the awesomeness beyond words sensation of the projects in Harlem. Our perceptions and experiences are different, but we aren't elite or special for having them, we're all just looking at different illusions.

    Gassho,

    Daijo

  36. #36
    Joyo
    Guest
    [QUOTE=Jundo;135427
    I believe that sometimes we need to give a fish, sometimes to teach a man to fish ... sometimes we need to rescue a drowning man ... and sometimes we need to teach a man to be as Free and Boundless as the Ocean ...

    Gassho, J[/QUOTE]


    Thank you, Jundo, for your very wise words. I am taking this into consideration as I ponder my own Ango commitments this year.

    Gassho,
    Joyo

  37. #37
    Hello,

    though I agree with the general spirit of most posters in this thread, my life experience so far (albeit limited and totally subjective) has also taught me that too much availability can often have the exact opposite effect one intends. People are different, many of them will not be able to see the worth of something unless it is a bit hard to get.

    I remember my days in another religious sub culture many years ago....which was trying so hard to make everything available to everyone that it only led to the lowest common denominator in different scenarios...which in turn led to some people completely moving away. There is no perfect solution IMHO, just a question of how one wants to position oneself.

    Gassho,

    Hans Chudo Mongen

  38. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Daijo View Post
    This is existence from your perspective, and you are perhaps just as incapable of perceiving the awesomeness beyond words sensation of the projects in Harlem. Our perceptions and experiences are different, but we aren't elite or special for having them, we're all just looking at different illusions.

    Gassho,

    Daijo
    Could be. Could be not. There was a choice made to engage the discipline of sitting practice, under the guidance of a teacher(s).. and to realize cessation first hand. It took many years, and was/is an atypical effort. It is an atypical thing to do, or even consider doing, but it does not entail dwelling in a specialness.

    I honor people who devote themselves to practice. It is the bowl floating upstream...eh? I bow to the lineage and have no interest in a Buddhism that is whatever we wish it to be. Treeleaf is a good balance it seems. I respect Jundo and can even shut up and listen to him.

    Daizan
    Gassho

  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Hans View Post
    Hello,

    People are different, many of them will not be able to see the worth of something unless it is a bit hard to get.

    Gassho,

    Hans Chudo Mongen
    Certainly this, too.

    Gassho
    Shōmon

  40. #40
    Well I'm certainly not interested in or encouraging in anyway that we should prosthelytize zazen. I'm not even saying that it would work for everyone. In fact I think for may people it could be very dangerous. What I am saying is that we shouldn't isolate ourselves into a practice for "douchey white liberal Buddhists". I think we do risk becoming "elitists" even if it is, and I believe it is, unintentional. If there are people who have a general interest and a basic comprehension level required to practice Zazen, then arent we doing a disservice by putting up cultural and financial barriers? That's all I'm trying to get at, removing the barriers. I'm not saying these barriers exist so much at treeleaf, I'm speaking of the practice in general.

  41. #41
    Interesting topic.
    One can certainly learn from you all.

    I come from a worker family, lower middle class in a "third world" country always cycling through financial problems.
    In Argentina, Zen seems to be still small in number of practitioners and centers. I think there are no more than 10 or 15 zen centers in Buenos Aires, Córdoba and all the biggest cities.
    But I have the impression that the composition of the bigger zen centers is pretty similar to what you can see in the US.
    The retreats tend to be expensive (I cannot afford them mostly, be it for the fees or for the days off work, which otherwise I would have to substract from my family holidays) and for what I could see, the people attending is, too, from an upper middle-class majority. Maybe independent professionals.
    That applies also to another flavors of Buddhism like the S.N Goenka Vipassana Meditation Centers. But that's just an impression, I do not have a lot of experience nor statistics.

    Anyway, I think that Treeleaf is making a great effort to be inclusive in many ways and achieves it.
    Thanks to Jundo's vision, many of us, workers, parents, with limited posssibilities to go to zendos or attend retreats, can share the experience.
    And I have sat several zazenkais offline and the experience is not that different that when I go to the local zendo.
    I also share more with people here than inthe local zendo, partly because I go there only since a couple of months ago, and partly because I just see them for about two hours a week, and one and a half is spent sitting zazen.

    Having in mind that for example in Latin America there is a vast number of "third world" countries, that they mostly speak spanish and that most people from the lower classes do not speak english, perhaps you could consider in some future planning to extend Treeleaf experience to spanish speaking people.

    Just an idea. I do not know about any other experience like this in spanish.
    I feel fortunate of speaking english, and that gave me the opportunity to be here practicing and learning, which I am inmensely grateful for.

    Gassho,
    Walter.

  42. #42
    Yugen
    Guest

    A Discussion About Race, Gender and Class

    This is a good thread.... Lets introduce some non white guy perspectives into the conversation - I recommend the writing of Bell Hook and Zenju Earthlyn Manuel for black/feminist/womanist/Buddhist perspectives. Zenju was ordained by Blanche Hartman (speaks to Daijo's point that Zen must take root in different non-white/elite communities of experience). Well worth looking at - I am certainly being challenged in my worldview on matters of society, race and zen. Zen is very male and patriarchal. Female ancestors are still overlooked and/or minimized - there are entire dimensions of experience and practice that I am ignorant of. Progress has been made in certain lineages but much remains to be done.

    It would be very cool to have Zenju Manuel give a talk at Treeleaf (idea).....

    http://zenju.org/

    Deep bows
    Yugen
    Last edited by Yugen; 09-03-2014 at 05:25 PM.

  43. #43
    Thank you to everyone for this thread ! I love the openess and willingness to discuss really important issues.

    There are so many aspects to this discussion that's it's hard to know where to begin - and I certainly don't have any concrete answers.

    Just off the top of my head I would question whether people essentially need to come from the same backgrounds /race/ class/ etc to understand each other. I come from a working class background but have benefited from a good education and trained as a psychotherapist. I worked for many years in a prison. I experienced no barrier to a shared understanding. Words are only a barrier if we make it so. I believe it's possible to convey buddhist/zen principles if we take care with our words. It's a big and exciting challenge really.

    I think the mistake lies in being fearful of change - change isn't about trashing tradition - it's more accepting that language is endlessly creative and gives us the opportunity to express our practice in new and accessible ways.

    Thanks again,

    Gassho

    Willow

  44. #44
    Nindo
    Guest
    Yugen, thanks for the link.

    I was fortunate to spend a week in retreat co-led by Sister Pannavati, a "black female Buddhist monk" (quoting her website). She was truly remarkable. Please check her out. She is running several social projects in the US and India.

  45. #45
    Feeling drawn back to this thread again.. there are just a couple of things.

    It is very fine to want to accommodate differences based on ethnicity and gender. But please do not forget the baseless and really unfortunate generalizing that is a subtext here. Who are you? Are you a type? This idea of privileged White Liberals is a caricature. I have suffered poverty, lived on the street, saw my father die penniless. (I'll talk about it sometime). I dealt drugs at 17 to survive, and have a two year black out period. No one is a stereotype or should be reduced to some picture of a lifestyle. No one.

    Second.. the Four Noble Truths, sitting upright, these basic things are no different for a woman or a man, a person of Chinese decent, or European. Buddhism started with an Indian, and has passed through every Asian ethnicity before landing here. So.. Identity politics will hopefully be put aside on the cushion, in the simple act of sitting.

    It feels like Treeleaf is at a wonderful moment of rebirth and possibility. I hope there will be more woman taking ordination. That would be terrific.

    Ok. that's all. gassho

  46. #46
    Thank you Daizan for your teaching.

    Gassho,
    Jeff

  47. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Daizan View Post
    Feeling drawn back to this thread again.. there are just a couple of things.

    It is very fine to want to accommodate differences based on ethnicity and gender. But please do not forget the baseless and really unfortunate generalizing that is a subtext here. Who are you? Are you a type? This idea of privileged White Liberals is a caricature. I have suffered poverty, lived on the street, saw my father die penniless. (I'll talk about it sometime). I dealt drugs at 17 to survive, and have a two year black out period. No one is a stereotype or should be reduced to some picture of a lifestyle. No one.
    Hmmm, not to speak for anyone else, but I certainly wasn't try to do that. I don't think anyone was/is trying to stereotype or pigeonhole, through subtext or not, though subtext can go both ways: if I could be reduced to some unfortunate generalized picture (which I'm equally averse to doing), I'd be the privileged white liberal caricature.

    My final thought is this: racism exists and it sometimes leads to other social things/constructs/etc, which are not as obvious as blatant racism, and we should see it as we try to see all things, with care and compassion and awareness, while not being pushed or pulled by it, and then do whatever small things we can.

    Gassho
    Shōmon

  48. #48
    Hi Alan and Jeff. I'm sorry to come across as teachy or preachy. it is just feeling moved to say something. No one is intending to pigeon hole anyone here. I'm sure each and every person here is something amazing and rich who has seen so much. It is humbling. Gassho

  49. #49
    Wasn't teachy The content of your post just "clicked" with me in the moment I was reading it and I was thankful. Cheers.

    Gassho,
    Jeff

  50. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Daizan View Post
    Feeling drawn back to this thread again.. there are just a couple of things.

    It is very fine to want to accommodate differences based on ethnicity and gender. But please do not forget the baseless and really unfortunate generalizing that is a subtext here. Who are you? Are you a type? This idea of privileged White Liberals is a caricature. I have suffered poverty, lived on the street, saw my father die penniless. (I'll talk about it sometime). I dealt drugs at 17 to survive, and have a two year black out period. No one is a stereotype or should be reduced to some picture of a lifestyle. No one.

    Second.. the Four Noble Truths, sitting upright, these basic things are no different for a woman or a man, a person of Chinese decent, or European. Buddhism started with an Indian, and has passed through every Asian ethnicity before landing here. So.. Identity politics will hopefully be put aside on the cushion, in the simple act of sitting.

    It feels like Treeleaf is at a wonderful moment of rebirth and possibility. I hope there will be more woman taking ordination. That would be terrific.

    Ok. that's all. gassho
    We are, one and all, a unique Jewel in Indras's Net, and all live the hard times and have walked rough roads in their way and in their time. I just read an old Sutta this morning where one of the Arhats reminded a great King that even he is subject to Dukkha Suffering ...

    Ratthapala Sutta

    "And what do you think, great king: Are you even now as strong in arm & strong in thigh, as fit, & as seasoned in warfare?"

    "Not at all, Master Ratthapala. I'm now a feeble old man, aged, advanced in years, having come to the last stage of life, 80 years old. Sometimes, thinking, 'I will place my foot here,' I place it somewhere else. ... I have a recurring wind-illness.[9] Sometimes my friends & advisors, relatives & blood-kinsmen, stand around me saying, 'This time King Koravya will die. This time King Koravya will die.' ...

    "It's amazing, Master Ratthapala. It's astounding, how well that has been said by the Blessed One who knows & sees, worthy & rightly self-awakened: 'The world is without shelter, without protector.' For the world really is without shelter, Master Ratthapala. It is without protector.
    The Buddha did not discriminate between rich or poor among his followers. If anything, he depended on the rich. In fact, one might say that without the rich, from the Buddha's time until today, there might be no vehicle for the Teachings ... because the rich overwhelming provided the land and shelter and clothes and food and other support for the Buddha's followers, Dogen's monks at Eiheiji and the capital for the monastery of about every other Buddhist Teacher in history from Thailand to Tibet to Toronto. The Buddha did teach one path for homeleavers ... having nothing much besides a robe on their back and a begging bowl. But he also taught another path for lay folks on whom Buddha & the Band depended to supply the robes, offer land for the monasteries, put food in those bowls. The Buddha taught laypeople that having a bit of wealth and opportunity is not a problem. HOW YOU USE THE WEALTH, RESOURCES AND OPPORTUNITY IS WHAT IS KEY (whether selfishly and wastefully, or for good and for the great society and others, family and community), as is not being a prisoner or driven by wealth and excessively attached to what one has. Buddha's basic point comes down to ... if one has wealth, use it for good purposes ... for social good ... don't live to excess ... and don't be attached. For such reason, Zen traditionally values the simple, intangible treasures of life ... the things which money cannot buy.

    I wrote today on another thread about the Great Lay Bodhisattva Vimalakirti, a socially engaged rich man with an interest in responsible politics and governance ...

    VIMALAKIRTI NIRDESA SUTRA

    At that time in the great city of Vaishali there was a rich man named Vimalakirti. ... His mind was cleansed and purified through long practice of the Buddha Way, firm in its grasp of the Great Vehicle, and all his actions were well thought out and planned. He maintained the dignity and authority of a Buddha, and his mind was vast as the sea. All the Buddhas sighed with admiration, and he commanded the respect of the disciplies, of Indra, Brahma, and the Four Heavenly Kings. ... Though dressed in the white robes of a layman, he observed all the rules of pure conduct laid down for monks, and though he lived at home, he felt no attachment to the threefold world. One could see he had a wife and children, yet he was at all times chaste in action; obviously he had kin and household attendants, yet he always delighted in withdrawing from them. Although he wore jewels and finery, his real adornment was the auspicious marks; although he ate and drank like others, what he truly savored was the joy of meditation. ... He engaged in all sorts of businesses, yet had no interest in profit or possessions. To train living beings, he would appear at crossroads and on street corners, and to protect them he participated in government.
    The Buddha also provided this guidance to a wealthy follower in the old Anana Sutta ...

    Then Anathapindika the householder went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there the Blessed One said to him: "There are these four kinds of bliss that can be attained in the proper season, on the proper occasions, by a householder partaking of sensuality. Which four? The bliss of having, the bliss of [making use of] wealth, the bliss of debtlessness, the bliss of blamelessness.

    "And what is the bliss of having? There is the case where the son of a good family has wealth earned through his efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of his arm, and piled up through the sweat of his brow, righteous wealth righteously gained. When he thinks, 'I have wealth earned through my efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of my arm, and piled up through the sweat of my brow, righteous wealth righteously gained,' he experiences bliss, he experiences joy. This is called the bliss of having.

    "And what is the bliss of [making use of] wealth? There is the case where the son of a good family, using the wealth earned through his efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of his arm, and piled up through the sweat of his brow, righteous wealth righteously gained, partakes of his wealth and makes merit. When he thinks, 'Using the wealth earned through my efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of my arm, and piled up through the sweat of my brow, righteous wealth righteously gained, I partake of wealth and make merit,' he experiences bliss, he experiences joy. This is called the bliss of [making use of] wealth.

    "And what is the bliss of debtlessness? There is the case where the son of a good family owes no debt, great or small, to anyone at all. When he thinks, 'I owe no debt, great or small, to anyone at all,' he experiences bliss, he experiences joy. This is called the bliss of debtlessness.

    "And what is the bliss of blamelessness? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones is endowed with blameless bodily kamma, blameless verbal kamma, blameless mental kamma. When he thinks, 'I am endowed with blameless bodily kamma, blameless verbal kamma, blameless mental kamma,' he experiences bliss, he experiences joy. This is called the bliss of blamelessness.

    "These are the four kinds of bliss that can be attained in the proper season, on the proper occasions, by a householder partaking of sensuality."

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....062.than.html
    I do not see a problem with making the Dharma available to rich or poor ... but the question remains, how best to be inclusive of the poor, minorities, the downtrodden, etc. ? We must keep trying.

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-04-2014 at 01:55 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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