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Thread: Dzogchen and Shikantaza

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    How do you pronounce / say the word Dzoghen ?

    Kind regards. /\
    The same as the sound of a stringless lute, a valley without an echo.

    Gassho, J

  2. #52
    Thx jundo and shigantazen. So without the z its dogen and with the z its last on the list. 😊

    Kind regards. /\
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

    I may be wrong and not knowing is acceptable

  3. #53
    Task: Simply sit. Implement this task before you read further. There are two different ways to implement this task:

    • You »practice« simply sitting. This is synonymouse to »conceptual reification«.
    • You simply sit. This is synonymouse to »primordial unfabricated looseness«.

    : Simply sit. Implement this task – but don’t meditate. How? Whenever you catch yourself »practicing« simply sitting instead of simply to sit, recognize how »an« subjectively »simply sitting« permeates the experience due to your »practiced implementation«. So whenever you catch yourself »practicing« simply sitting instead of simply to sit, interrupt this »meditation« and simply sit. Did you recognize the difference between your fabricated and the factual task? Great. If you are naturally able to implement the task »de facto« instead of practicing resp. conceptually reify it again, this is already synonymouse to »primordial unfabricated looseness«. Since »primordial looseness« is completely unfabricated, there is immediate-obvious no need to practice resp. conceptually reify the task again.

    Excursus: Doctrines
    Do nothing. Leave everything as it is. Act normal. Simply sit. Simply rest. Look at the sky. Be aware. Don’t focus. Leave your consciousness alone. These are all tasks that need to be »implemented« actually, which would be equivalent to »knowledge«. From each of these tasks you can potentially build an own doctrine and tradition. If such tasks are conceptually reified and therefore »practiced«, then this is only consistent. But every actually implemented task is equivalent to any other actually implemented task. Therefore »tradition« as »religion« and the associated spectacle doesn’t matter.

    Mnemonic: Every »actual implementation« is primordial-unfabricated respectively primordial-uncontrived. But don’t think in consequence, » there is nothing to do« or » I behave myself completely natural« or » I simply sit and drink my tea« or » I’m already liberated« or » I stop trying to meditate«. This is just »thinking about« resp. just speculation from the standpoint of ignorance. The tasks must be »implemented« and there are only two ways to implement them: as unfabricated fact or fabricated practice; actually or seemingly. Based on a complete understanding of the difference between the actual and the seemingly, the process of »conceptual reification» can be stopped resp. interrupted. This »can be« the beginning of »primordial unfabricated looseness».
    Last edited by thigle; 10-18-2014 at 08:14 PM.
    » Neither focus .. nor practice «

  4. #54
    Schon wieder? - Do we have to hash through this again?
    We don't really have tasks here.
    We sit.

    PS the post reminds me of Gertrude Stein:
    "A noun is a name of anything, why after a thing is named write about it. A name is adequate or it is not ... things once they are named does not go on doing anything to them and so why write in nouns. Nouns are the name of anything and just naming names is alright when you want to call a roll but is it good for anything else."
    (from "Poetry and Grammar")

    As I was saying loving repeating being is in a way earthly being. In some it is repeating that gives to them always a solid feeling of being. In some children there is more feeling and in repeating eating and playing, in some in story-telling and their feeling. More and more in living as growing young men and women and grown men and women and men and women in their middle living, more and more there comes to be in them differences in loving repeating in different kinds of men and women, there comes to be in some more and in some less loving repeating. Loving repeating in some is a going on always in them of earthly being, in some it is the way to completed understanding. Loving repeating then in some is their natural way of complete being. This is now some description of one.
    (from The Making of Americans)
    Last edited by Nindo; 10-19-2014 at 03:54 AM.
    The best way to honour the women of the Prairies who won the right to vote a hundred years ago isn't a monument. It's you going out to vote.

  5. #55
    Hi Thigle,

    Yes, I have read what you wrote a oouple of times and pretty sure that I don't get it. As Nindo said. Good sitting to you.

    Gassho, Jundo

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hi Thigle,

    Yes, I have read what you wrote a oouple of times and pretty sure that I don't get it.
    You have read what I wrote, but you have not implemented what I wrote, therefore you don't understand what I wrote. Such ignorance makes me sad, because a lot of shikantaza-practitioners do the same. They interrupt their detected »practiced implementation« resp. »conceptual reification« by return to the posture again .. to simply sit actually, instead of their »conceptual reification« called »simply sitting«.
    Last edited by thigle; 10-19-2014 at 01:09 PM.
    » Neither focus .. nor practice «

  7. #57
    Hello Thigle,

    in case you hadn't noticed, this forum is a manifestation of a real Sangha, where people want to share and care for one another, not just one of those countless internet forums where people come to talk talk talk without a community context.
    Nothing you have written in this forum indicates that you have any interest in practising and sharing the Dharma outside of wanting to make yourself seem like Buddha's gift to Buddhism.

    If you think Dharma is only about Manjusri's sword of understanding you are not even half right.


    Hans Chudo Mongen

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindo View Post
    We don't really have tasks here.
    We sit.
    Are we a royal highness? Or dissociated? Or do you really speak for everyone in this sect? It's not so much about the tasks, but actual implementation.
    » Neither focus .. nor practice «

  9. #59
    Gee, Mongen ... I am going to make you our official bouncer!

    Gassho, J

  10. #60
    I'm more of a Martin Luther, werter Hans. Your sectarian ignorance stinks to heaven.
    » Neither focus .. nor practice «

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by thigle View Post
    Your sectarian ignorance stinks to heaven.

    Yet Martin Luther King was both a humanitarian and leader ... the practice you seem to preach lacks both my friend.

    倫道 真現

    As a trainee priest, please take any commentary by me on matters of the Dharma with a pinch of salt.

  12. #62
    Task: Simply sit. Implement this task before you read further.
    Hi Thigle,

    As I expect it may take me many lifetimes to fully implement this task, I probably will not get to reading the remainder of your post for a while, but appreciate that it will be waiting for me at that time.

    Wishing you peace.

    Last edited by Byokan; 10-19-2014 at 01:53 PM.

  13. #63
    Hi Thigle,

    The problem for us is that it is hard to understand what you are writing about. I know you understand, but it is impenetrable to me. So, if it seems to be working for you, I wish you well to do so. Unfortunately, i cannot comment because I do not understand.

    If you would like to Practice as we do here, then you are most welcome here. If you do not Practice as we do here in this Dojo, then I think you are in the wrong Dojo for you.

    Gassho, Jundo

  14. #64

    Metta to all.*


    *All is just as it is

  15. #65
    Hello Thigle,

    believe it or not, I get what you are trying to communicate. The point for me personally is that there is no Dharma practise devoid of compassionate Sangha practise. I just don't feel any warmth anywhere in your posts or any indication you want to really get to know any of us. We all have good days and bad days, but I just don't understand what you want us to do...

    So if your method of expressing Dzogchen/Shikantaza means you can fully awaken in record time, go for it. I really mean this from the bottom of myheart. This world needs all the Bodhisattva power it can get.

    The thing is that there are even multiple ways of teaching Shikantaza, so even if we all told you "nicely epressed", what would we do afterwards?

    I wish you well.


    Hans Chudo Mongen

  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by thigle View Post
    I'm more of a Martin Luther, werter Hans. Your sectarian ignorance stinks to heaven.
    What is the purpose of saying this? I can answer that for you, there is no purpose. It's unnecessary to say the least.


  17. #67
    John, much metta to you and your wife. I wish you well, and do hope everything went fine with the surgery.


  18. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post

    I am a very simple headed fellow. I just sit, and such is all the world.
    Gassho, Jundo
    Deep bows Jundo.

    I spent many years in my practice thirsty and diving face first down a well that had no water in it. Reading a lot in this thread reminds me of that time.

    There is nothing wrong with the opinions, teachings and practices that have been spoken here, but it wasn't the flavor for me. What I quoted from Jundo above sums it up for me. And as many have said, we have a certain practice here and this is a living breathing Sangha.

    When I first found Buddhism as a teenager I studied anything and everything I could get my thirsty little hands on. For so many years I mixed and matched and practiced everything I could trying to find "my" practice that was right for "me." One of the many things I studied was Dzogchen.

    I must say it took me many years after all that study and practice of all those different things to burn it all away and to move "the furniture out of the attic" so to speak. And I had found that this dropping away of all these things I had studied and dropping away of everything was coming from "just sitting." I started to simplify practice (perhaps to a bit of an extreme) in all ways. Then I searched for a teacher, community and Buddhist practice to further deepen my practice for the benefit of all sentient beings.

    So here I am at Treeleaf practicing our flavor. I practice and I practice simply. I tend to practice very simply and even when explaining our practice to others I explain it very simply. Mostly because I find we can become easily attached to some of the "furniture in the attic" and it is best to just sit.

    I am not agreeing or disagreeing with any of the practices or teachings in this thread, I am simply explaining some experiences on a winding path that has become a bit more simple, straight, narrow...and drops away.

    Am I saying the initial "thirst" is wrong? No, I am saying it is time to sit.

    My deepest respect to all of you.

    "When you do something, you should burn yourself completely, like a good bonfire, leaving no trace of yourself."
    Shunryu Suzuki

  19. #69
    Member Geika's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    San Diego County, California
    Nice post, Bobby. Gassho
    迎 Geika

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