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Thread: Useful Oryoki Links

  1. #1

    Useful Oryoki Links

    Hi all,
    Here are some of the links I referred to, and some other information:

    Dogen's instructions on Oryoki, the Fushukuhanpo:
    http://wwzc.org/dharma-text/fushukuh...use-your-bowls

    The official Sotoshu rules for Oryoki:
    http://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng/...oki/index.html

    The chants we use for Oryoki at Treeleaf are in our Retreat Chant Book:
    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/conte...eat-Chant-Book

    Measurements and instructions to make your own Oryoki cloths can be found here:
    http://terebess.hu/zen/szoto/oryoki-instructions.pdf

    Monk's Lacquered Oryoki Set from the Monestary Store:
    http://www.dharma.net/monstore/produ...b7qgnt6indm4b0

    Hattan measurements:
    24cm x 33cm; 9.5in x 13in.

    Waterboard:
    21cm x 6.75cm; 8.25in x 2.75in.

    Gassho
    Myozan

  2. #2
    Thanks Myozan!

    Gassho,
    Dosho

  3. #3
    Yes, thank you for these Myozan. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

  4. #4
    Thanks Myozan!

    Very useful.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Hondō Kyōnin
    奔道 協忍

  5. #5
    Myozan,

    What is the width for the water board?

    Gassho,

    Daido

  6. #6
    Hello,

    Thank you for the links.


    Gassho,
    Myosha
    "Recognize suffering, remove suffering." - Shakyamuni Buddha when asked, "Uhm . . .what?"

  7. #7

    Useful Oryoki Links

    Waterboard: 21cm x 6.75cm
    Gassho
    M

  8. #8
    I think he means thickness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myozan Kodo View Post
    Waterboard: 21cm x 6.75cm
    Gassho
    M

  9. #9

    Useful Oryoki Links

    Oh, right. I don't know. My best answer is thin, I guess.

    How thick is your board Dosho? A cm or two?

    Gassho
    M
    Last edited by Myozan Kodo; 01-27-2014 at 08:35 PM.

  10. #10
    It's hard to say exactly because it is curved. At any one point the thickness is only about 0.5cm, but if you were to carve out the shape from a wood block it would be about 1 cm thick.

    In the end I would say don't go any less than 0.5cm, but if you have to cut the wood yourself anything less than 1 to 2 cm will be hard to cut without it splintering anyway. So, it really depends on your woodworking skills and/or luck at finding a piece the right size.

    Hope that is helpful.

    Gassho,
    Dosho

    Quote Originally Posted by Myozan Kodo View Post
    Oh, right. I don't know. My best answer is thin, I guess.

    How thick is your board Dosho? A cm or two?

    Gassho
    M

  11. #11
    Thanks Dosho. Mine is about 2cm thick. It's NOT regulation, rather an improvised waterboard. Jundo's, from memory, looks about a cm thick. I might be wrong on that, though. I'd say keep it thin, but not to breaking point, as Dosho wisely suggests above.

    Hope that is of some help.

    Gassho
    Myozan

  12. #12
    Thanks Myozan and Dosho. I will be on the look out for such a piece of wood this week! Gassho.
    Heisoku 平 息
    Every day is a journey, and the journey itself is home. (Basho)

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Heisoku View Post
    Thanks Myozan and Dosho. I will be on the look out for such a piece of wood this week! Gassho.
    Diddo ... thank you Dosho and Myozan. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

  14. #14
    If I may jump in on the Water Board (called the Mizuita in Japanese, but sometimes the "Suiban" which is just another way to read the same Kanji) ... here is a set of pictures that may give a rough image ... it is thin. Yes, the price is about $60 US just for the Mizuita!

    http://www.itempost.jp/detail/1/designshopjp/1505

    I am not so concerned on ultra-precise dimensions, and really it is a piece of wood painted black lacquer traditionally. Any generally similar piece of thin-ish wood should do. Originally, it was a handle for the bundle, used by monks as a kind of lid on their travel bag to keep out rain. It also doubled as a kind of rest to place the utensil bag on and to give some body to the bundle when it is tied together. The bowl are the round "bump" on the front of the "backpack" here known as the "Kesa Bunko/ Kesa Gori", which the monks wore for travel and pilgrimage (Angya). The Mizuita helped hold the bowls in place. However, now it is part of the Oryoki ritual too, as some of the movements involve it.



    Traditionally, the travel pack contained their kesa, razor, jihatsu (another name for the Oryoki bowls), sutra book, a rain poncho and some small amount of money to cover their funeral (in case they died on the way, so the expense of funeral would not be a burden to anyone).

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 01-28-2014 at 04:30 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  15. #15
    It's hard to say exactly because it is curved.
    as I was about toexplain when my battery charger so rudely interrupted, the suiban both Dosho and I showed yesterday is a piece of bamboo; hence the curve
    gassho, Shokai
    仁道 生開 - Jindo Shokai "Open to life in a benevolent way"
    May we all grow together in our knowledge of the Dharma

  16. #16
    Interesting fact about the bamboo and the curve which did not occur to me! I must say the curve is a nice feature as it provides a nice spot for the utensils.

    If I may ask, how many cloths came with your set Shokai? I think mine only came with two, but as I said on the video I have to admit the possibility that I lost the third one!

    Gassho,
    Dosho

    Quote Originally Posted by Shokai View Post
    as I was about toexplain when my battery charger so rudely interrupted, the suiban both Dosho and I showed yesterday is a piece of bamboo; hence the curve
    gassho, Shokai

  17. #17
    Only two as well. Do you think we should paint the sub an black to follow tradition?

    Sent from my Note 2 using Tapatalk4
    仁道 生開 - Jindo Shokai "Open to life in a benevolent way"
    May we all grow together in our knowledge of the Dharma

  18. #18
    Thanks for that Jundo. Brilliant.

    Looks like you guys will need that third cloth. Is it the small, drying cloth you're missing?

    I'm certainly not pushed on a black waterboard. Although it does appear to be black traditionally.

    My mizuita is black and not curved. In that, I was following Jundo's and the official oryoki set as close as possible.

    However, my mizuita/ waterboard is too tick: 2cm, rather than closer to the 1cm the official board seems to be.

    I'm happy with people just cutting out a piece of cardboard to stand in as a mizuita for the purposes of our oryoki practice, however.

    Gassho
    Myozan

  19. #19
    Hi,

    The clothes that are required are:

    -The "Shijoutai" (匙莇袋, literally, "Spoon and Chopstick Bag") for holding those implements and the "Setsu" (刷) cleaning spatula, seen just above the "Mizuita" water board in the below photo.

    -The "napkin" lap cloth that protects the Kesa during eating, called the "hizakake" (膝掛), literally "lap throw", shown on the far right.

    -The wiping/drying cloth, a white cloth much like an old fashioned men's breast pocket hanky, called the "Fukin" (布巾) that is not shown in the below picture for some reason

    -The large wrap cloth that covers the whole set of bowls, and rests underneath in "star" shape while eating, is the "Fukasa" (袱紗, literally "wrapping silk" or "wrapping cloth")

    Those should have been included in all the sets provided by me to our priests. Something missing?

    Gassho, J

    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  20. #20
    Thank you.


    My Oryoki set includes a fourth (9 cm. X 4 cm) bowl. Used as container or stand or spare?

    Yours in ignorance,


    Gassho,
    Myosha
    "Recognize suffering, remove suffering." - Shakyamuni Buddha when asked, "Uhm . . .what?"

  21. #21
    Hello everyone,

    I am going to be sewing some new fabric for my set and was wondering if black is the traditional colour? I see in the image Jundo has provided that the colour looks blueish grey ... any thoughts? =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

  22. #22
    Hi,

    The color tends toward grey shades, not black, in my experience.



    Gassho, J
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hi,

    The color tends toward grey shades, not black, in my experience.



    Gassho, J
    Excellent, thank you JUndo. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

  24. #24
    Hi,
    Yes. I've always seen greys and blues mostly too. Never black for the cloths. Sometimes I've seen while drying cloths and napkins, with a grey or blueish outer, wrapping cloth.

    The bowls and chopsticks, etc, are pretty much always black, however ... as far as I know.

    Gassho
    Myozan

    PS: Measurements and instructions to make your own Oryoki cloths can be found here:
    http://terebess.hu/zen/szoto/oryoki-instructions.pdf

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Shokai View Post
    Only two as well. Do you think we should paint the sub an black to follow tradition?
    Unless Jundo thinks it necessary to paint it I plan to leave the waterboard as is. I think it appropriate to leave it anyway, but I would be concerned about damaging it as well.

    Gassho,
    Dosho

  26. #26
    I agree, I enjoy the way the grain shows on it. Makes it very unique. It's just that I read somewhere the traditional color is black.
    I like my suiban just the way it is.
    gassho, Shokai

    Sent from my Note 2 using Tapatalk4
    仁道 生開 - Jindo Shokai "Open to life in a benevolent way"
    May we all grow together in our knowledge of the Dharma

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hi,

    The clothes that are required are:

    -The "Shijoutai" (匙莇袋, literally, "Spoon and Chopstick Bag") for holding those implements and the "Setsu" (刷) cleaning spatula, seen just above the "Mizuita" water board in the below photo.

    -The "napkin" lap cloth that protects the Kesa during eating, called the "hizakake" (膝掛), literally "lap throw", shown on the far right.

    -The wiping/drying cloth, a white cloth much like an old fashioned men's breast pocket hanky, called the "Fukin" (布巾) that is not shown in the below picture for some reason

    -The large wrap cloth that covers the whole set of bowls, and rests underneath in "star" shape while eating, is the "Fukasa" (袱紗, literally "wrapping silk" or "wrapping cloth")

    Those should have been included in all the sets provided by me to our priests. Something missing?
    Since Shokai's accounting agrees with mine, I feel fairly certain that we only received the utensil holder and two cloths. The measurements of the cloths I received are 19in x 17in (Wrap?) and 25in x 13in (Napkin?), which would leave the drying cloth missing. Are those the measurements you get Shokai?

    Gassho,
    Dosho

  28. #28
    Hang on, I'll need to measure

    Sent from my Note 2 using Tapatalk4
    仁道 生開 - Jindo Shokai "Open to life in a benevolent way"
    May we all grow together in our knowledge of the Dharma

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Shokai View Post
    I agree, I enjoy the way the grain shows on it. Makes it very unique. It's just that I read somewhere the traditional color is black.
    I like my suiban just the way it is.
    gassho, Shokai

    Sent from my Note 2 using Tapatalk4
    Yes, I put a piece of nice bamboo, slightly convex, in the sets I send you at Ordination. No need to change the color or shape. In the future, I may just get pieces of wood cut to about that size and paint them black. That is not important, but you can find a piece of wood and paint it too. Any piece of wood about that size and shape will do really. You are also free to order the $60 lacquered water board I linked to above!

    As to the apparently missing "Fukin", wiping cloth ... it really is just a plain white wiping/drying cloth. I thought I had included a white piece of semi-absorbent cotton in your kits cut to size. If not, well, just find some white cotton and cut a piece. See the picture 3 posts up.

    I would not obsess about minor points. In fact, Zen Priests in the West I have seen carry all variety of bowls with small variations. The Middle Way. I mean, here is the set that the late Hozan Alan Senauke was using for himself at Berkeley Zen Center. It looks very complete, but notice that the chopsticks and "Setsu" are brown instead of "fully Orthodox" black lacquer. No biggie.



    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 01-29-2014 at 04:01 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  30. #30
    You did include and I think mine is stil 'in the box'
    gassho, Shokai
    仁道 生開 - Jindo Shokai "Open to life in a benevolent way"
    May we all grow together in our knowledge of the Dharma

  31. #31
    Nindo
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Myozan Kodo View Post

    PS: Measurements and instructions to make your own Oryoki cloths can be found here:
    http://terebess.hu/zen/szoto/oryoki-instructions.pdf
    Thanks, I was just about to ask. I have some measurements here that seem to be on the small side, will go for an extra inch or two according to this booklet.
    Gassho,
    Nindo

  32. #32
    Nindo,
    Good luck with your sewing.
    Gassho
    Myozan

  33. #33
    Nindo
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Myozan Kodo View Post
    Nindo,
    Good luck with your sewing.
    Gassho
    Myozan
    Thank you. This will be machine sewing ... I'm almost done, but goofed up with the utensil holder measurements. It is quite short now, with one "turn around" missing. The whole set is good enough for practice, but until Rohatsu I'm probably going to do another one with a bit more TLC, now that I know what to look out for

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