time and attainment do not matter

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The most important aspect of Shikantaza is to sit and attain the feeling, deep in the bones, that "time and attainment do not matter." All is attained in the moment of just allowing this moment of just allowing, free of attaining. It is not voiced, not a thought particularly, and is just a feeling of profound conviction coming from somewhere that "time and attainment do not matter."

Now, Shikantaza is a strange animal:

How much time is needed to attain the feeling that "time and attainment do not matter?"

Some folks need 30 minutes to truly attain the feeling that "time and attainment do not matter." Some folks need 15 minutes of sitting. For other folks, even 3 days is not enough sometimes. Other days (each day is unique), it may take only a snap of the fingers to attain the feeling that "time and attainment do not matter." That's how much time it takes to attain "time and attainment do not matter."
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Most important point: "time and attainment do not matter."


Gassho, J

STLah

The first thing that comes to my mind after reading this is "Drop your body and mind". If something had to be attained, it would make our practice less sacred.

Gassho,
Sat today,
Guish.

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My best example of this was a time I was frustrated at work after a lengthy repair that I thought was finished became a second lengthy repair to re-repair what I had just re-repaired. I sat still for a moment, as close to our zazen posture as I could perform in our computer chairs, and in seconds I felt it all drop away. Time is seemingly so vast that we are ants in comparison, and yet it is also so infinitesimal as to fit perfectly into just this moment. Truly a humbling experience.

Gassho,
William
Sat

I spend most if my time sitting very wrapped up in body and posture as I am unconfortable. I hope it will get better as I limber up and keep sitting daily. Mind and body do drop away for brief instances.

Regardless the struggle is likely good practice.

Gassho,
Gregor
ST
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The centre is timeless - and can be entered from anywhere within the time-space continuum.


Sorry for running a bit long.


Gassho

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gregor

I spend most if my time sitting very wrapped up in body and posture as I am unconfortable. I hope it will get better as I limber up and keep sitting daily. Mind and body do drop away for brief instances.

Regardless the struggle is likely good practice.

Gassho,
Gregor
ST
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Suzuki said that those who struggle with Zazen find the most benefits from the practice. Good luck with your practice, brother.

Gassho,
Guish.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Guish

The first thing that comes to my mind after reading this is "Drop your body and mind".

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If one truly truly truly sat "time and attainment do not matter," there is realization of "dropping body and mind" (no need to say "your").

Why?

Because it is the bodymind that measures time and wants attainments that matter.

Gassho, J

ST

gassho2

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

Beautifulgassho2 Thank you for that Jundo.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

gassho2

I was listening to a talk on YouTube earlier during which the monk mentioned that the area he is from near Lhasa has many steep hills. Going up the hills is hard, and going down the hills is easy, but whether one is going up or down, one is still moving toward Lhasa.

Kodo Tobiishi sat today
gassho1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by omom

The centre is timeless - and can be entered from anywhere within the time-space continuum.


Sorry for running a bit long.

Gassho

---

I like that. It reminds me of a passage of the Tibetan Book of the Dead. I don't recall it exactly, but something like "the naked, spotless intellect is like a transparent vacuum, without circumference or center. "

Thank you, Jundo. Sorry for going long.

Gassho,
Juki

sat today and lah

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tobiishi

gassho2

I was listening to a talk on YouTube earlier during which the monk mentioned that the area he is from near Lhasa has many steep hills. Going up the hills is hard, and going down the hills is easy, but whether one is going up or down, one is still moving toward Lhasa.

Kodo Tobiishi sat today
gassho1

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Do you happen to remember the talk? I think I have been trying to re-find this for some time. gassho2

Gassho,
William
Sat

Thank you Jundo

gassho2
Tairin
Sat today and lah

I have been at times torn asunder during Shikantaza as a result of thoughts arising. A thought begins to arise, do I allow it to fully form (in the sense that once a single phoneme arises do I allow it to conclude in a unit of meaning, a word and/or then a sentence) and then let it go, or do I cut it off as it arises. Either way it involves some 'effort'.

Some of the thoughts are about this such topic, about seeing any thought including thoughts of attainment as empty.

There are times I simply use that ethereal sense of movement, our focus of awareness so to speak, to guide intension. Intension to simply not judge and let the thoughts drift away at either level (don't allow words to form and allow a word or a sentence to form but not develop further) but even then that wordless motion of letting go is empty, as it involves judgement.

A beast Shikantaza certainly is, simply sitting in peaceful abiding, a frustratingly difficult at times thing to do.

It is what it is, whatever it is... and it will continue to be whatever.

Gassho
Mark
ST

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tobiishi

gassho2

I was listening to a talk on YouTube earlier during which the monk mentioned that the area he is from near Lhasa has many steep hills. Going up the hills is hard, and going down the hills is easy, but whether one is going up or down, one is still moving toward Lhasa.

Kodo Tobiishi sat today
gassho1

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Maybe the Zen perspective is a little different ...

Going up the hill, going down the hill, the whole hill and all sides are all already Llasa. :p Keep walking.

Gassho, J

STLah

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WanderingIntrospection

I have been at times torn asunder during Shikantaza as a result of thoughts arising. A thought begins to arise, do I allow it to fully form (in the sense that once a single phoneme arises do I allow it to conclude in a unit of meaning, a word and/or then a sentence) and then let it go, or do I cut it off as it arises. Either way it involves some 'effort'.

Some of the thoughts are about this such topic, about seeing any thought including thoughts of attainment as empty.

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Wow, too complicated! I even had to look up the definition of "phoneme," thinking that you were telephoning someone during Zazen! :p

[phoneme, in linguistics, smallest unit of speech distinguishing one word (or word element) from another]

You are trying to stop thoughts. We don't try to stop thoughts. We simply don't latch on and get tangled in them.

Is it an "effort" to not grab something, or does one simply not grab it (which seems like the very opposite of effort!)? [happy]

If a butterfly, flutters into the room, and you just let it flutter, then flutter out again, it is no effort. You don't have to worry, "Do I not think about it at 1 flutter, at 2 wings and a flutter?" You don't have to make an "effort" not to reach out and grab it as it flutters by your hand. Just let it flutter in and out. The butterfly does all the work, not you.

Quote:

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There are times I simply use that ethereal sense of movement, our focus of awareness so to speak, to guide intension. Intension to simply not judge and let the thoughts drift away at either level (don't allow words to form and allow a word or a sentence to form but not develop further) but even then that wordless motion of letting go is empty, as it involves judgement.

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I actually have no idea what the above sentences mean, but I can say that this is NOT Shikantaza.

Gassho, J

STLah

Sorry to run long

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WanderingIntrospection

I have been at times torn asunder during Shikantaza as a result of thoughts arising. A thought begins to arise, do I allow it to fully form (in the sense that once a single phoneme arises do I allow it to conclude in a unit of meaning, a word and/or then a sentence) and then let it go, or do I cut it off as it arises. Either way it involves some 'effort'.

Some of the thoughts are about this such topic, about seeing any thought including thoughts of attainment as empty.

There are times I simply use that ethereal sense of movement, our focus of awareness so to speak, to guide intension. Intension to simply not judge and let the thoughts drift away at either level (don't allow words to form and allow a word or a sentence to form but not develop further) but even then that wordless motion of letting go is empty, as it involves judgement.

A beast Shikantaza certainly is, simply sitting in peaceful abiding, a frustratingly difficult at times thing to do.

It is what it is, whatever it is... and it will continue to be whatever.

Gassho
Mark
ST

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That seems like a lot of work to just sit [emoji1] For me, as soon as I bow before putting my hands in the zazen mudra, I let go of all that “trying” and “intention” and “expectation” of what I should do in case this or that arises or what zazen should be like. I just sit upright, back straight, breathe deeply and naturally, keep eyes open, stay awake and let go of thinking…

[emoji1374] SatToday

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jundo

If a butterfly, flutters into the room, and you just let it flutter, then flutter out again, it is no effort. You don't have to worry, "Do I not think about it at 1 flutter, at 2 wings and a flutter?" You don't have to make an "effort" not to reach out and grab it as it flutters by your hand. Just let it flutter in and out. The butterfly does all the work, not you.

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I will try my best to do just this, to think of my own thoughts as no different to a butterfly.

Gassho
Mark
ST

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WanderingIntrospection

I will try my best to do just this, to think of my own thoughts as no different to a butterfly.

Gassho
Mark
ST

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Don't "try," just let the butterfly fly.

(Hey, that rhymes!) :p

Gassho, JSTLah

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jundo

Don't "try," just let the butterfly fly.

(Hey, that rhymes!) :p

Gassho, JSTLah

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Next book: “Jundo’s zen rhymes” … *just saying*
[emoji6] [emoji1374]

Sat Today

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bion

Next book: “Jundo’s zen rhymes” … *just saying*
[emoji6] [emoji1374]

Sat Today

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There was a Roshi from Nantucket ...

:eek:

Gassho, J

STLah

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jundo

There was a Roshi from Nantucket ...

:eek:

Gassho, J

STLah

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[emoji375] sold! [emoji1]

[emoji1374] Sat today

How do you drop body mind without the thought of dropping them? Isn't that thought then just a distraction?

Gassho gassho1

John

SATToday

Quote:

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Originally Posted by johnsoriano

How do you drop body mind without the thought of dropping them? Isn't that thought then just a distraction?

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How do we breathe, sometimes with and sometimes without thought of breathing?

Sit and find out.

Gassho, J

STLah

Quote:

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Originally Posted by johnsoriano

How do you drop body mind without the thought of dropping them? Isn't that thought then just a distraction?

Gassho gassho1

John

SATToday

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Just sit. No need to do anything else during Shikantaza (other than adopting a stable and balanced posture). We can create whole scenes in our heads of what this means, or how we should do it. Am I doing it right? Should I focus on my breathing? But we forget the simple yet complete instruction: Just sit. I really recommend reading Jundo's book to understand what this "Just sitting" entails, it is really helping megassho2

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shinshin

Do you happen to remember the talk? I think I have been trying to re-find this for some time. gassho2

Gassho,
William
Sat

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"Keep calm when your mind is wild" Mingyur Rinpoche

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tobiishi

"Keep calm when your mind is wild" Mingyur Rinpoche

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Thank you for this.

Gassho2, meian stlh

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Lead chants. Onkai gone, rakusu. gift, 30 min. Robe Verse, zazen, chimed. Which first chant. Buddha. Dharma. Sangha. chime, zazen, sometimes shikantaza, clock, I chime, bell, Thank you for sitting with me, he says, "You do a very good job." I am grateful it's over, happy and smiling. Thank you Onkai.
Gassho
sat/ lah

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jundo

Wow, too complicated! I even had to look up the definition of "phoneme," thinking that you were telephoning someone during Zazen! :p

[phoneme, in linguistics, smallest unit of speech distinguishing one word (or word element) from another]

You are trying to stop thoughts. We don't try to stop thoughts. We simply don't latch on and get tangled in them.

Is it an "effort" to not grab something, or does one simply not grab it (which seems like the very opposite of effort!)? [happy]

If a butterfly, flutters into the room, and you just let it flutter, then flutter out again, it is no effort. You don't have to worry, "Do I not think about it at 1 flutter, at 2 wings and a flutter?" You don't have to make an "effort" not to reach out and grab it as it flutters by your hand. Just let it flutter in and out. The butterfly does all the work, not you.



I actually have no idea what the above sentences mean, but I can say that this is NOT Shikantaza.

Gassho, J

STLah

Sorry to run long

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This is exactly what I needed to hear right now, thankyou jundo for this teaching.

Effortless effort, no matter what we want, we are still "doing" something. Sometimes my mind is the same in meditation as it is in not-meditation, and that is okay.


Knowing I feel better on this path then before I started, is the only measure.

Gassho,
SatToday
Leah.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jundo

You are trying to stop thoughts. We don't try to stop thoughts. We simply don't latch on and get tangled in them.

Is it an "effort" to not grab something, or does one simply not grab it (which seems like the very opposite of effort!)? [happy]

If a butterfly, flutters into the room, and you just let it flutter, then flutter out again, it is no effort. You don't have to worry, "Do I not think about it at 1 flutter, at 2 wings and a flutter?" You don't have to make an "effort" not to reach out and grab it as it flutters by your hand. Just let it flutter in and out. The butterfly does all the work, not you.




Gassho, J

STLah

Sorry to run long

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I am in a point where I'm still practising to sit zazen reguralry even five minutes daily, so I don't have clue if I am doing it right.

I have to ask about quote above: when I'm sitting, thougts come to my mind, like "Oh, I have to do this and that". After that comes thought like "I have to remember that", and then "How I remember that? Should I write it down?".

When I notice that pattern, I try to convince myself, that just now I am sitting, so I don't do anything else. I try to tell myself, that if those things are so important, they come back to me sooner or later. Just now I'm sitting. Is that even near what You meant by

Quote:

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We don't try to stop thoughts. We simply don't latch on and get tangled in them.

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Or am I putting too much effort to not to stop thoughts?

Gassho
Late

LaH

When pain is no more during Shikantaza, we have found each other. The point is other--person, people are the point and they ease our pain, they know our pain because we know their pain. We are Epochal in our own ways. Sit for ladies of the night and men who made them that way. Tonglen.
Gassho
sat/ lah

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Late

I am in a point where I'm still practising to sit zazen reguralry even five minutes daily, so I don't have clue if I am doing it right.

I have to ask about quote above: when I'm sitting, thougts come to my mind, like "Oh, I have to do this and that". After that comes thought like "I have to remember that", and then "How I remember that? Should I write it down?".

When I notice that pattern, I try to convince myself, that just now I am sitting, so I don't do anything else. I try to tell myself, that if those things are so important, they come back to me sooner or later. Just now I'm sitting. Is that even near what You meant by

Or am I putting too much effort to not to stop thoughts?

---

Hi,

Sometimes in sitting we get caught in long changes of thought, e.g., "I am hungry, I wonder what is for lunch, I would like a sandwich, but I need to buy bread, I wonder what time the grocery closes, I need to put gas in the car ... " This is just ordinary thinking, one thought after another.

If, during Zazen, you notice you are doing this, just don't continue the chain ... return to following the breath or open awareness. Please think about lunch and shopping and gas later, after Zazen.

(Of course, if it is very VERY important ... e.g., "I must remember to turn the gas off the stove" ... It is okay to think about it a little, or even get up and turn off the gas! :p Then, return to Zazen).

Does that answer your question?

Gassho, Jundo

PS - Late, would you do me a favor? Sign a human first name, and put a human face picture to accompany your posts? It helps us keep things a little more human here. Thank you. Here are instructions.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...n-Avatar-Photo

STLah

Hi!

Thank You for your response.

I quess I am on right tracks, but maybe I should convince myself little less. Just sit. And of course, when my cats are killing each other or I smell smoke I should not sit on zafu, instead "sit" and put fire off...

My official first name is Lauri, but I've been always called Late except for doctors, teachers and officials. In finnish "Late" is just short from Lauri, not a hint to my lacking sense of time. Wich is better, that I shall use. Picture is coming. When, I can't promise anything due to my lacking sense of time.

Gassho

Lauri

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Late

Hi!

Thank You for your response.

I quess I am on right tracks, but maybe I should convince myself little less. Just sit. And of course, when my cats are killing each other or I smell smoke I should not sit on zafu, instead "sit" and put fire off...

My official first name is Lauri, but I've been always called Late except for doctors, teachers and officials. In finnish "Late" is just short from Lauri, not a hint to my lacking sense of time. Wich is better, that I shall use. Picture is coming. When, I can't promise anything due to my lacking sense of time.

Gassho

Lauri

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Thank you Late, or Lauri. gassho1

Gassho, Jundo

STKah