Meditation is pointless...

Hello everyone,

I'm currently reading Meditation Now Or Never by Steve Hagen. He speaks about zazen being pointless. He doesn't mean that we shouldn't practice zazen, he means that if we are looking for some sort of benefit, or reward, then it would be pointless. I found this a very interesting view and I wanted to know your thoughts. I often find that my ego wants to this practice to have some end point. Some sort of finish line with a banner that reads, "Welcome to enlightenment." I think this is human nature, but I found that the more I sit, the less this thought plagues my mind. After all, there is nothing "out there" to achieve in this practice. Enlightenment isn't something we can grasp; Nirvana isn't a place. To sit is enlightenment; to smile is nirvana. Each time that my ego expects something from this practice, I come back to this moment. I try to focus on what I'm currently doing because zazen isn't practiced only on the cushion. Thank you for your time.

Gassho,

Adam

Hi Adam,

My view on this has always been much like my signature line from Aitken Roshi: If you go looking for enlightenment you will never find it. After that, I cannot say...but sitting seems to offer a benefit in this world, right here, right now because I'm NOT looking for a benefit from zazen. The rest will either take care of itself or it won't. In all cases, I just sit.

Gassho,
Dosho

Yes, I agree, see my signature too! :D


By Kodo Sawaki Roshi (http://antaiji.dogen-zen.de/eng/kodo-sa ... -you.shtml):

To you who is wondering if your zazen has been good for something

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What’s zazen good for? Absolutely nothing! This “good for nothing” has got to sink into your flesh and bones until you’re?truly practicing what’s good for nothing. Until then, your zazen is really good for nothing.

You say you want to become a better person by doing zazen. Zazen isn’t about learning how to be a person. Zazen is to stop being a person.

Zazen is unsatisfying. Unsatisfying for whom? For the ordinary person. People are never satisfied.

Isn’t it self-evident? How could that which is eternal and infinite ever satisfy human desires?

Unsatisfying: simply practicing zazen.
Unsatisfying: realizing zazen with this body.
Unsatisfying: absorbing zazen into your flesh and blood.

Being watched by zazen, cursed by zazen, blocked by zazen, dragged around by zazen, every day crying tears of blood – isn’t that the happiest form of life you can imagine?

You say “When I do zazen, I get disturbing thoughts!” Foolish! The fact is that it’s only in zazen that you’re aware of your disturbing thoughts at all. When you dance around with your disturbing thoughts, you don’t notice them at all. When a mosquito bites you during zazen, you notice it right away. But when you’re dancing and a flea bites your balls, you don’t notice it at all.

Don’t whine. Don’t stare into space. Just sit!


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Gassho,
Pontus

Hi Adam,
When I decided to start practicing zazen I was not looking for enlightenment, what I needed (wanted?) at the time was perspective, and I just thought this might help. I was and still am mostly ignorant of many of the concepts of buddhisim including nirvana, awakining, re-birth, and the like.
This came up while we were discussing our practice at the Tea Party this Sunday. I made mention that this past week I had been givin a great challenge to face in life, an ongoing situation that is close to hiting a crital point, Mother far away and ailing in health, an abusive, and unstable Alcholic brother living with her, and myself wishing to do something about it, but not welcome to do so by anyone....Anyway not important the point being I said that a year ago (prior to Zen) I know I would have been compleatly freaked out and running about in a frantic state and forcing issuses, basicly causing a bigger mess of things.
Now I certainly had a couple rough days while on the phone with realatives, and trying to get a handle on the situation, worried, stressed, angry, just upset, Normal.........but I did not loose my cool (as I am prone to do :oops: )

I do not mean to ramble or make it about me, my point is that as I read your post I thought of how I had come to feel that Zen has had an impact in this situation.
No great enlightenment, I do not feel I have been "FIXED" or gained anything, I just feel that I have learend just a little to see myself from a different perspective, and perhaps be more apt to catch myself when heading in the wrong direction.....I think.
This is what I have come to expect from myself, and practice...maybe I should not expect or want anything? and I really don't feel I need any reward for sitting ..but I sure am grateful for the practice when I recognized a positive change in myself.

I don't need enlightenment, I just need to get through each day, as best I can, I have no doubt that Zazen is pointless, but I sure don't feel quite right when I skip it, so it must be having some effect, and as long as it feels right I'll keep on doing it.
Just wanted to share my view of Zazen, I suspect it means a little something different for all of us.

Gassho. ~Dave.

Dave, I agree, in a way.
But do you think Sawaki the grumpy old fool agrees? :evil: :wink:


To you who says that you have attained a better state of mind through zazen

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As long as you say zazen is a good thing, something isn’t quite right. Unstained zazen is absolutely nothing special. It isn’t even necessary to be grateful for it.
Wouldn’t it be strange if a baby said to its mother, “Please have understanding for the fact that I’m always shitting in my diapers.”
Without knowledge, without consciousness, everything is as it should be.
Don’t stain your zazen by saying that you’ve progressed, feel better or have become more confident through zazen.

We only say, “Things are going well!” when they’re going our way.

We should simply leave the water of our original nature as it is. But instead we are constantly mucking about with our hands to find out how cold or warm it is. That’s why it gets cloudy.

There’s nothing more unpleasant than staining zazen. “Staining” means making a face like a department head, corporate boss or chairperson. Washing away the stains is what’s meant by “simplicity” [shikan].

There are bodhisattvas “without magical abilities”. These are bodhisattvas who have even entirely forgotten words like “practice” or “satori”, bodhisattvas without wonderful powers, bodhisattvas who are immeasurable, bodhisattvas who are not interested in their name and fame.

Zazen isn’t like a thermometer where the temperature slowly rises: “Just a little more … yeah … that’s it! Now, I’ve got satori!” Zazen never becomes anything special, no matter how long you practice. If it becomes something special, you must have a screw lose somewhere.

If we don’t watch out, we’ll start believing that the buddha-dharma is like climbing up a staircase. But it isn’t like this at all. This very step right now is the one practice which includes all practices, and it is all practices, contained in this one practice.

If you do something good, you can’t forget you’ve done something good. If you’ve had satori, you get stuck in the awareness of having satori. That’s why it’s better to keep your hands off good deeds and satori. You’ve got to be perfectly open and free. Don’t rest on your laurels!

Even if I say all of this about the buddha way, ordinary people will still use the buddha-dharma to try and enhance their value as humans.


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Originally Posted by Adam

After all, there is nothing "out there" to achieve in this practice. Enlightenment isn't something we can grasp; Nirvana isn't a place. To sit is enlightenment; to smile is nirvana. Each time that my ego expects something from this practice, I come back to this moment.
Gassho,

Adam

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True, but at the same time, too oversimplified. Awakening is not the same as to smile, sitting is not the same as nirvana. Much of zen terminology is emanating from different aspects of reality. That's why we can say that "there is nothing to reach", but at the same time, "there is plenty to reach". Trying to reach it, though, can make you miss it.

When it comes to not having to reach something we have already got, the notion of buddhadhatu is to blame. Buddhadhatu is problematic, in more than one way. If that buddha nature is existent in all of us, either it is a) not subject to change, which makes it a kind of atman, or b) is subject to change, but then it's just as illusory as the self. Why mention it at all? I mean, the buddha said it was possible to wake up - no need to refer to our inherent buddha nature, unless you are trying to align the buddhadharma with vedic ones.

This buddhadhatu is the hardest part for me to reconcile with.

So, I don't agree that meditation is pointless. There is a perfectly clear point. However, I believe that sometimes it is useful for people to believe that there is no point, in order to make them drop their constant search for nirvana. This belief, which is a tool for our practice, is very much like the belief in pure lands. Sure, the pure land is right here, in your own mind, but it is portrayed as a an actual land in order to make those who practice more diligent in their practice.

To quote a certain Kenobi: "What I told you was the truth. From a certain point of view".

There are many truths depending on our own point of view, yet there is only one truth.

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Originally Posted by anista

True, but at the same time, too oversimplified. Awakening is not the same as to smile, sitting is not the same as nirvana. Much of zen terminology is emanating from different aspects of reality. That's why we can say that "there is nothing to reach", but at the same time, "there is plenty to reach". Trying to reach it, though, can make you miss it.

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I agree. However, what I mean is that when one sits with the intention of becoming awakened, then that is pointless because you will never achieve this goal. Any time we strive for awakening, we have already failed. We cannot strive for something that is with us at all times. We should sit, to just sit. Not expecting anything from our sitting, but gaining everything from it. Does that make sense? I am not saying in this post that zazen is in anyway pointless. I'm pointing to the fact that we cannot expect our sitting will lead to awakening, but we become awakened in the process. I hope I'm making sense.

Gassho,

Adam

Some people would argue that even though we deny that we are trying to attain something, we are only fooling ourselves. Subconsciously we still hold on to that idea of enlightenment as something we need to attain. You may call me paranoid, but I don't dare to read books like the Three Pillars of Zen from this reason... I don't want to read about people's Kensho-experiences, because I'm afraid I would subconsciously start longing for it. I'd rather repeat my mantra that Zazen is good for nothing until hopefully one day I believe in it. I'm aware that I may just be deluding myself...

Gassho,
Pontus

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Originally Posted by Omoi Otoshi

Some people would argue that even though we deny that we are trying to attain something, we are only fooling ourselves. Subconsciously we still hold on to that idea of enlightenment as something we need to attain.

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I think I know what you mean. Sometimes, I'll think I am not feeling particularly driven. Later on, in reflection, I'll sometimes realize that I was trying to attain something. My work life is very goal-oriented and that easily comes into my personal life, including my meditation.

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Originally Posted by anista

When it comes to not having to reach something we have already got, the notion of buddhadhatu is to blame. Buddhadhatu is problematic, in more than one way. If that buddha nature is existent in all of us, either it is a) not subject to change, which makes it a kind of atman, or b) is subject to change, but then it's just as illusory as the self. Why mention it at all? I mean, the buddha said it was possible to wake up - no need to refer to our inherent buddha nature, unless you are trying to align the buddhadharma with vedic ones.

This buddhadhatu is the hardest part for me to reconcile with.

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Hello Anista,

Perhaps Reality is Buddha-Nature? Always exactly what it is, unchanging and eternal at an absolute point of view, even while dynamic and impermanent at a relative. Maybe it would be more accurate to say, "All of us are extant in Buddha-Nature." Reality is reality, Buddha-Nature is Buddha-Nature (whatever that does turn out to mean). Could the whole issue be as simple as holding on to one's concept of what "Buddha Nature" or "Reality" is, or should be?

Just my thoughts.

Metta,

Saijun

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Originally Posted by Omoi Otoshi

Dave, I agree, in a way.
But do you think Sadowaki the grumpy old fool agrees?

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Thank you for your reply, and to everyone else. Good stuff to think on and add to the perspective.
Gassho.

Not too bad, Saijun, but don't even be attached to this.
Anista, when you say : there is plenty to reach", who is reaching what?

Awakening is not a product we may get from the Zen shelf, it is not something we can hold or have, we are it. And when we are it, we are not aware of it. Awakening is not navel gazing. It is the natural activity of reality expressed fully in our sitting. Our sitting is pointless like trees, birds, mountains and stuff like that. when you give zazen a goal, you restrict its nature, you give it a flavour, pointless zazen is absolutely open, unconditionnally open, open on the open itself. We not having a strategy here, pretending it is pointless so we can get the goodies from it, it is truly endless, timeless and pointless. The journey is without goal because it never ends. Sawaki Kodo wanted people to realize that limiting boundless activity was ridiculous.

gassho

Taigu

Rereading "Opening the Hand of Thought". I find it something like this:

Aiming with the bow at no target, we soon get cocky saying "oh ho ho! no target indeed!" and decide to shoot at something anyway. The arrow ends up in your foot, we just don't realize we've stuck ourselves to the ground sometimes! Still looking off into the distance for our target, our arrow in the bullseye. Doesn't mean we can't pull it out and come back to where we are though :P

Something like that?

Gassho,
Taylor (Myoken)

Something like that, Myoken.

gassho


Taigu

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Originally Posted by Omoi Otoshi

Some people would argue that even though we deny that we are trying to attain something, we are only fooling ourselves. Subconsciously we still hold on to that idea of enlightenment as something we need to attain. You may call me paranoid, but I don't dare to read books like the Three Pillars of Zen from this reason... I don't want to read about people's Kensho-experiences, because I'm afraid I would subconsciously start longing for it. I'd rather repeat my mantra that Zazen is good for nothing until hopefully one day I believe in it. I'm aware that I may just be deluding myself...

Gassho,
Pontus

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Wanting enlightenment is a very good thing. "attaining enlightenment" is merely experience a great understanding in one's whole being.

I want to know what is this thing called enlightenment and that QUESTION has led me to many significant experiences.

It is important when sitting to let that desire to find out what enlightenmetn is, to let that drop away from the forefront of one's consciousness because that desire is an in-the-future thing and nothing happens in the future, there is only this moment. And so enlightenment, like everything else, can only happen in This Moment. But it is probably more expedient to turn one's desire for enlightenment into a question.

And I want to encourage people not to settle for feeling peaceful, being mindful. Or at least perhaps to consider not settling for those things. Because the great promise of zen buddhism is that experiencing enlightenment is not something that just happened to some prince who lived 2500 years ago, it is available to everyone.

thank you for yoru time,
gassho
rowan jinho
who very definitely doesn't sit zazen just to sit on her butt

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Originally Posted by Taigu

Awakening is not a product we may get from the Zen shelf, it is not something we can hold or have, we are it. And when we are it, we are not aware of it. Awakening is not navel gazing. It is the natural activity of reality expressed fully in our sitting. Our sitting is pointless like trees, birds, mountains and stuff like that. when you give zazen a goal, you restrict its nature, you give it a flavour, pointless zazen is absolutely open, unconditionnally open, open on the open itself. We not having a strategy here, pretending it is pointless so we can get the goodies from it, it is truly endless, timeless and pointless. The journey is without goal because it never ends. Sawaki Kodo wanted people to realize that limiting boundless activity was ridiculous.

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Thank you very much Taigu Sensei. Your words ring very true. Very clear and honest. As do those of Sawaki Roshi.
I agree we shouldn't pretend it's pointless so we can get the goodies. But it's very hard to accept consciously and subconsciously that there is nothing to attain, when we are so used to having goals and being driven in our everyday lives. As Sawaki says: "This “good for nothing” has got to sink into your flesh and bones until you’re truly practicing what’s good for nothing."

Gassho,
Pontus

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Originally Posted by Jinho

But it is probably more expedient to turn one's desire for enlightenment into a question.

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Yes, and keep a beginner's mind.

Thank you,
Pontus

Pontus, it is Kodo Sawaki you are refering to. But I am sure he doesn't mind if you change his name a bit...

gassho


Taigu

Oops! :oops: :oops: :oops:
I had a teacher named Kadowaki once. So I mixed that and Sawaki a little. I blame the sleep deprivation... Making a complete fool out of oneself is very good for your ego! :D

I'll edit to avoid confusion.

Gassho,
/Pontus

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Originally Posted by Omoi Otoshi

As Sawaki says: "This “good for nothing” has got to sink into your flesh and bones until you’re truly practicing what’s good for nothing."

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Until this conviction/experience of "good for nothing" sinks into our flesh and bones" we use to make discriminations to express our relation to this practice. A lot of questions, thoughts, ideas or idealization may appear in our little heads about Zen, Zazen, good, bad... But practicing with the sense of "I don't know" can help to relax sufficiently our mind (better to drop bodymind... but only on good days :lol: ) and maybe just accept this reality of "good for nothing".

Is the "good for nothing" that Kodo Sawaki express really different from the "I don't know"?
Not one, not two practices... maybe beyond practices.

In the end the question is, for me (who is, like a lot of us, easily lost in intellectual ideas about practice), is it important to know if we can get something or not from Zazen?

No need to answer, we all have one... but looking at this question about our practice with the "specter", the view, the sense of "I don't know" can help to just ... dropping the answers and the questions... and what is left?

Sorry, it is a bit complicated for me to express myself with nuances in English.
Hope it isn't out of subject.

gassho,
Jinyu

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Originally Posted by Jinho

Wanting enlightenment is a very good thing. "attaining enlightenment" is merely experience a great understanding in one's whole being.

I want to know what is this thing called enlightenment and that QUESTION has led me to many significant experiences.

It is important when sitting to let that desire to find out what enlightenmetn is, to let that drop away from the forefront of one's consciousness because that desire is an in-the-future thing and nothing happens in the future, there is only this moment. And so enlightenment, like everything else, can only happen in This Moment. But it is probably more expedient to turn one's desire for enlightenment into a question.

And I want to encourage people not to settle for feeling peaceful, being mindful. Or at least perhaps to consider not settling for those things. Because the great promise of zen buddhism is that experiencing enlightenment is not something that just happened to some prince who lived 2500 years ago, it is available to everyone.

thank you for yoru time,
gassho
rowan jinho
who very definitely doesn't sit zazen just to sit on her butt

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Very good post rowan/jinho. I agree completely.

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Originally Posted by Taigu

Anista, when you say : there is plenty to reach", who is reaching what?

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Me who is typing here, the sense of self who is illusory, who is clinging to itself, reaches everything that can be reached. Awakening, the end of a sutra, more groceries, a case in point. No? I get a feeling that this is a wrong answer (even if we're passed right and wrong)! :D

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Awakening is not a product we may get from the Zen shelf, it is not something we can hold or have, we are it. And when we are it, we are not aware of it. Awakening is not navel gazing. It is the natural activity of reality expressed fully in our sitting. Our sitting is pointless like trees, birds, mountains and stuff like that. when you give zazen a goal, you restrict its nature, you give it a flavour, pointless zazen is absolutely open, unconditionnally open, open on the open itself. We not having a strategy here, pretending it is pointless so we can get the goodies from it, it is truly endless, timeless and pointless. The journey is without goal because it never ends. Sawaki Kodo wanted people to realize that limiting boundless activity was ridiculous.

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OK, now I am confused. You say that pointless zazen is unconditionally open, but then isn't that a point to zazen? The openness? We can argue about the semantic nature of the word "point", but since zazen is unconditionally open, without a strategy, that could be said to be the point. The point of having no point.

Indeed, the point of having no point.

gassho

Taigu

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Originally Posted by Taigu

Indeed, the point of having no point.

gassho

Taigu

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It may be pointed out that there is one pointed point so open as to sweep in all points without exception. Point at your nose or point to the farthest star, and the point points at the point. In fact, any one point fully expresses and reflects all points, like points of light reflected endlessly in the mirrors of Indra's Net. One cannot even call the point a "point" in space and time, or big or small, or point out where it came from or where it's going ... because nothing is outside to point to for compare! Yet, sometimes the compass needle points north south east or west, sometimes the hands of the clock point to 3:00 or 9:00, sometimes it is a sharp or dull point. Zazen is sat right at such point! "That's Pointless!" 8)

Sometimes I say that, just because sitting is "pointless", "goalless" ... that does not mean that there is no point, no goal. A wonderful goal is to diligently, energetically attain in one's bones that attainment of no goal and nothing in need of attaining! That's the Pointless point. :shock:

Get the point? Anyway, pardon my pointless comment ... I am on the 3rd day of the flu, and my head feels pointy.

Gassho, J

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Originally Posted by Jundo

Get the point? Anyway, pardon my pointless comment ... I am on the 3rd day of the flu, and my head feels pointy.
Gassho, J

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Hello Jundo,

I'm sorry to hear that you're ill. It must be going around; part of the issue that kept me away from the internet was my semi-yearly bout with pneumonia. I think I've got it on the ropes, though, and sincerely hope that you get back up to snuff soon.

Metta,

Saijun

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Originally Posted by Jundo

Get the point? Anyway, pardon my pointless comment ... I am on the 3rd day of the flu, and my head feels pointy.

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Yes, after reading it a dozen times (my wife was also asking me questions while I was reading, so it took even more readings than usual) I think I finally got the point... I think I also got a headache, but it's probably just the ignorance leaving my head! Thanks for pointing us in the right pointless direction, Jundo, Taigu and Sawaki! :D

Gassho,
Pontus

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Originally Posted by Jundo

I am on the 3rd day of the flu, and my head feels pointy.

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I'm on my first day. :roll:

Will be doing zazen in the corpse pose today.

I should've listened to my mom and got the flu shot. :(

gassho
and feel better soon Jundo!
Greg

I think this pointlessness is a major gate or barrier, a significant koan, in the Soto way, and in any way.

For me, realizing pointlessness was heartbreaking. It meant realizing all my big dreams were useless, nonreal fluff.

There is no kumbaya, there is no unicorn in the meadow at the end of the rainbow. We don't get a big cuddle and slap on the back.

I think this is where the nontheistic aspect of Buddhism really comes in. Realizing pointlessness is realizing that there is no plan for you, no cosmic parent with a design for your life who holds you in his or her loving embrace. You're really alone out here, it really is your life, and it really is just this, and has been just this since the beginning of beginningless time. Let go of all your baggage and ideas, all your goals and fantasies of endless power and control, all your hopes for the happy ending in the script you've written for your life.

"Coming empty handed, going empty handed, that is human." -Seung Sahn

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Originally Posted by Stephanie

I think this pointlessness is a major gate or barrier, a significant koan, in the Soto way, and in any way.

For me, realizing pointlessness was heartbreaking. It meant realizing all my big dreams were useless, nonreal fluff.

There is no kumbaya, there is no unicorn in the meadow at the end of the rainbow. We don't get a big cuddle and slap on the back.

I think this is where the nontheistic aspect of Buddhism really comes in. Realizing pointlessness is realizing that there is no plan for you, no cosmic parent with a design for your life who holds you in his or her loving embrace. You're really alone out here, it really is your life, and it really is just this, and has been just this since the beginning of beginningless time. Let go of all your baggage and ideas, all your goals and fantasies of endless power and control, all your hopes for the happy ending in the script you've written for your life.

"Coming empty handed, going empty handed, that is human." -Seung Sahn

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There might be no cosmic plan but you can still make plans and work with that plan, even if it is a simple plan for today. You are already queen of the universe.

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Originally Posted by Stephanie

I think this is where the nontheistic aspect of Buddhism really comes in. Realizing pointlessness is realizing that there is no plan for you, no cosmic parent with a design for your life who holds you in his or her loving embrace. You're really alone out here, it really is your life, and it really is just this, and has been just this since the beginning of beginningless time. Let go of all your baggage and ideas, all your goals and fantasies of endless power and control, all your hopes for the happy ending in the script you've written for your life.

"Coming empty handed, going empty handed, that is human." -Seung Sahn

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But this "pointlessness" is not, said the Buddha many times, a pointless, meaningless, nihilism.

For something still embraces, one is not alone, the baggage is let go and ... there is a happy endingless ending.

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Originally Posted by Jundo

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Originally Posted by Stephanie

I think this is where the nontheistic aspect of Buddhism really comes in. Realizing pointlessness is realizing that there is no plan for you, no cosmic parent with a design for your life who holds you in his or her loving embrace. You're really alone out here, it really is your life, and it really is just this, and has been just this since the beginning of beginningless time. Let go of all your baggage and ideas, all your goals and fantasies of endless power and control, all your hopes for the happy ending in the script you've written for your life.

"Coming empty handed, going empty handed, that is human." -Seung Sahn

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But this "pointlessness" is not, said the Buddha many times, a pointless, meaningless, nihilism.

For something still embraces, one is not alone, the baggage is let go and ... there is a happy endingless ending.

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I am feeling and understanding that more these days... I realized a while back that whatever it is I am, and wherever it is that I and any of the rest of us came from, whatever we are is, was, and always has been embedded in the very fabric of the universe. I can't quite find words to express it, but I realized that the view of science and the feeling of spirituality are not necessarily opposed.

To use a simile of a computer system, this possibility that we became was embedded in the code from the very beginning. We are not "random," in that our evolution proceeded in an orderly manner according to the parameters already in place. But it wasn't "designed," either, in the sense we imagine. There is no designer or master puppeteer pulling the strings. Everything that is, was already there from the very beginning, and no possibility or outcome is unconnected from the rest. Consciousness lies waiting in stardust.

We walk together with our fellow humans, yet we ultimately walk alone. It is not a sad or despairing alone, we are not isolated from anyone or anything else, but there is a certain childish fantasy that nonetheless must be dropped somewhere along the way if we want to stop chasing our tails. There is no secret, hidden consciousness that applauds for us every time we do something well when no one is watching. But that's just it... when you break through the barrier of pointlessness, it does not matter, because experience itself opens up to you when you remove the lenses that cause you to see everything in terms of a goal or point. You don't need the applause, because what you did is "its own reward," for lack of a better term. Your feeling of accomplishment is the universe's feeling of accomplishment.

Perhaps zazen is pointless because when you begin, you have a point in mind. “I will sit to become enlightened.” You can switch out “enlightened” with whatever you want: “balanced”, “happy”, “sad”, “hungry”, “wise”, “itchy” etc.

But you are always looking outward, trying to see that point coming closer, like when you pick out a tree or a rock and say, “I will walk to that point”. By looking for a “point” you create the separation between “you” and “the point”. Looking for a goal to reach.

As you sit, you start to stop looking out and start looking in. You start to realize that looking in is looking out and looking up while looking around, all at the same time. The goal disappears, because you know you cannot “look” for it. The “point” broadens and becomes a sweeping stroke, which becomes a bird chirping, which becomes you. The separation melts away and is dropped, the self starts to realize the “self” and soon you wonder, “What was the point anyway?” “What was I looking for in the first place?”

So now, there is no “point” and instead of trying to reach a point, you find you have become the point, and the point has become like trying to point at a specific point in a clear blue sky, or a certain point on a pure white piece of paper.

Now you just try to live. Now you “just sit”. See my point?
:mrgreen:

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Originally Posted by Omoi Otoshi

When you dance around with your disturbing thoughts, you don’t notice them at all. When a mosquito bites you during zazen, you notice it right away. But when you’re dancing and a flea bites your balls, you don’t notice it at all.

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I don't know that there's a dance that I could do where I wouldn't notice THAT! :shock: :shock: :shock:

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Originally Posted by Stephanie

Your feeling of accomplishment is the universe's feeling of accomplishment.

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Yea, that's how I feel sometimes. But it's gone and I'm already on to my next little plan :)

Hi Adam
Intrinsic enlightenment is with us at birth. What you do with it from there is entirely of your own making. Gassho Zak

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnsonCM

I don't know that there's a dance that I could do where I wouldn't notice THAT! :shock: :shock: :shock:

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The definition of absolute samadhi is when you don't notice the fleas biting your balls. :mrgreen:

/Pontus

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnsonCM

Perhaps zazen is pointless because when you begin, you have a point in mind. “I will sit to become enlightened.” You can switch out “enlightened” with whatever you want: “balanced”, “happy”, “sad”, “hungry”, “wise”, “itchy” etc.

But you are always looking outward, trying to see that point coming closer, like when you pick out a tree or a rock and say, “I will walk to that point”. By looking for a “point” you create the separation between “you” and “the point”. Looking for a goal to reach.

As you sit, you start to stop looking out and start looking in. You start to realize that looking in is looking out and looking up while looking around, all at the same time. The goal disappears, because you know you cannot “look” for it. The “point” broadens and becomes a sweeping stroke, which becomes a bird chirping, which becomes you. The separation melts away and is dropped, the self starts to realize the “self” and soon you wonder, “What was the point anyway?” “What was I looking for in the first place?”

So now, there is no “point” and instead of trying to reach a point, you find you have become the point, and the point has become like trying to point at a specific point in a clear blue sky, or a certain point on a pure white piece of paper.

Now you just try to live. Now you “just sit”. See my point?
:mrgreen:

---

Thank you for this. I was trying to say the same thing, but you have said it much better.

Gassho,

Adam

Excellent point JohnsonCM.

gassho


Taigu

I previously prepared an artfully verbose post consisting of quotes seen above and references probably best left unreferenced. My computer immediately agreed and crashed, losing all reference to the non-referenced. The gist of which was simple mindfulness; being aware of what you are thinking/doing when you are thinking and/or doing it.

Quote:

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Blessed are they who expect nothing for they shall not be disappointed
- anon.

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To which I am compelled to add Taigu's

Quote:

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Excellent point Johnson

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Rather pointless wouldn't you agree?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shokai

To which I am compelled to add Taigu'sExcellent point Johnson

Rather pointless wouldn't you agree?

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Of course, but then, that's the whole point. :wink:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saijun

Hello Anista,

Perhaps Reality is Buddha-Nature? Always exactly what it is, unchanging and eternal at an absolute point of view, even while dynamic and impermanent at a relative. Maybe it would be more accurate to say, "All of us are extant in Buddha-Nature." Reality is reality, Buddha-Nature is Buddha-Nature (whatever that does turn out to mean). Could the whole issue be as simple as holding on to one's concept of what "Buddha Nature" or "Reality" is, or should be?

Just my thoughts.

Metta,

Saijun

---

Sorry Saijun, I completely missed your response.

Anyway, sure, buddha nature could be reality in the way you describe it. I just think that the concept of buddha nature is somehow strangely specific, seemingly permanent, and slightly ... off ... though. In a way. But the same could be said about for example the alaya-vijnana, I suppose, and other concepts used to describe reality. But really, I have no special insight in this matter, just random thoughts.

But I agree, holding on to one's concept of what buddha nature really is could really be the root of this issue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by anista

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saijun

Hello Anista,

Perhaps Reality is Buddha-Nature? Always exactly what it is, unchanging and eternal at an absolute point of view, even while dynamic and impermanent at a relative. Maybe it would be more accurate to say, "All of us are extant in Buddha-Nature." Reality is reality, Buddha-Nature is Buddha-Nature (whatever that does turn out to mean). Could the whole issue be as simple as holding on to one's concept of what "Buddha Nature" or "Reality" is, or should be?

Just my thoughts.

Metta,

Saijun

---

Sorry Saijun, I completely missed your response.

Anyway, sure, buddha nature could be reality in the way you describe it. I just think that the concept of buddha nature is somehow strangely specific, seemingly permanent, and slightly ... off ... though. In a way. But the same could be said about for example the alaya-vijnana, I suppose, and other concepts used to describe reality. But really, I have no special insight in this matter, just random thoughts.

But I agree, holding on to one's concept of what buddha nature really is could really be the root of this issue.

---

Hello,

Every concept is slightly off. "Chocolate pudding" is enligtenment.

Metta,

Perry

Quote:

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Originally Posted by anista

Sorry Saijun, I completely missed your response.

Anyway, sure, buddha nature could be reality in the way you describe it. I just think that the concept of buddha nature is somehow strangely specific, seemingly permanent, and slightly ... off ... though. In a way. But the same could be said about for example the alaya-vijnana, I suppose, and other concepts used to describe reality. But really, I have no special insight in this matter, just random thoughts.

But I agree, holding on to one's concept of what buddha nature really is could really be the root of this issue.

---

You both have "a good point"! Unless you missed the point, and Buddha Nature is not something fixed at one point, like pudding in a mold! :wink:

Anyway, just be the "chocolate pudding of enlightenment" ... mix it up, stir it in a bowl, enjoy the Chocolatey Richness!

THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2041/...53e2d7b890.jpg

... tasted on the pointless point of a tongue hanging in space!

http://www.freeiconsweb.com/Freeicon...con/Tongue.png

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chugai

a lot of them to do with suicide and homicide --- but as I experience them I realize they are just thoughts and don't mean a damn thing ...

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Yes, please keep that realization!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saijun

Hello,

Every concept is slightly off. "Chocolate pudding" is enligtenment.

Metta,

Perry

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On a personal level, perhaps, but not when we're talking about buddhist philosophy. Few concepts are so off as the buddhadhatu. Even if I am missing the pointless point. Or the pointlessness of the pointless point, or something like that.

Philip

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jundo

Anyway, just be the "chocolate pudding of enlightenment" ... mix it up, stir it in a bowl, enjoy the Chocolatey Richness!

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Really, I have no idea what that means. :? :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by anista

On a personal level, perhaps, but not when we're talking about buddhist philosophy. Few concepts are so off as the buddhadhatu.

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But buddhadhatu is also a concept right? Like Suzuki Roshi says, there's a positive and a negative side to everything and we can't speak about both at once. He also says that the more we get to know the way, to harder is is to talk about it. This is where western philosophy fails. Buddha gave us a way to see for ourselves. If and when you experience the buddhadhatu in the marrow of your marrow, perhaps it won't be off at all? When we get hung up on a philosophical question like this, maybe we attach ourselves to it, cling to it? Maybe it's best to just practice, try to keep that beginner's mind and view the intellectualizations not as the answer, but as a brain exercise (and probably an exercise in futility)?

Gassho,
Pontus

PS. I've stopped trying to understand some of Jundo's writings intellectually... :D :wink: I just read through what he writes three to ten times and try to get the general feeling of what he is expressing! :lol: DS.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omoi Otoshi

Quote:

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Originally Posted by anista

On a personal level, perhaps, but not when we're talking about buddhist philosophy. Few concepts are so off as the buddhadhatu.

---

But buddhadhatu is also a concept right? Like Suzuki Roshi says, there's a positive and a negative side to everything and we can't speak about both at once. He also says that the more we get to know the way, to harder is is to talk about it. This is where western philosophy fails. Buddha gave us a way to see for ourselves. If and when you experience the buddhadhatu in the marrow of your marrow, perhaps it won't be off at all? When we get hung up on a philosophical question like this, maybe we attach ourselves to it, cling to it? Maybe it's best to just practice, try to keep that beginner's mind and view the intellectualizations not as the answer, but as a brain exercise (and probably an exercise in futility)?

Gassho,
Pontus

PS. I've stopped trying to understand some of Jundo's writings intellectually... :D :wink: I just read through what he writes three to ten times and try to get the general feeling of what he is expressing! :lol: DS.

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Sure, and I get that, but what we shouldn't forget is that chan and zen always have been very philosophically inclined, writing ominous volumes about dogma, practice, philosophy, etc. This intellectual side is often dismissed, I feel, in many samghas today, and instead, cryptic answers or other methods to point directly to the truth is employed. Nothing wrong with that, but there is also nothing wrong with having discussions on intellectual matters - it helps, if nothing else, to provide the samgha with the theoretical foundation for the practice. It's a chance to clear up difficult subjects, because there is something to be cleared up, that is our understanding of the subjects. Not everyone is interested in this, and that is fine.

Furthermore, I just want to say that just because we discuss intellectual matters, that doesn't mean that we're not practicing, that we're not sitting zazen. It's two sides of the same coin, no?

Anyway, I agree with you that it's best to just practice, but in my opinion, practice is way more than doing zazen, or rather, doing zazen could be more than just sitting still on the floor. You know?

Philip

Quote:

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Originally Posted by anista

Furthermore, I just want to say that just because we discuss intellectual matters, that doesn't mean that we're not practicing, that we're not sitting zazen. It's two sides of the same coin, no?

Anyway, I agree with you that it's best to just practice, but in my opinion, practice is way more than doing zazen, or rather, doing zazen could be more than just sitting still on the floor. You know?

---

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. There's a yin and a yang to practice I believe. There's both study and Zazen. I personally need to think things through, get to the bottom of things intellectually, before I can see that there's no truth or answer to be found by thinking longer and harder. That is when I need to just sit. But I don't think I could get to that point without thinking things through, if you know what I mean?

And I also believe we must have a foundation in the buddhist teachings. But the sutras can (should?) probably be read with two (or more?) different minds, reading with ones heart or with ones head.

Thanks for your thoughts,
Pontus

Quote:

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Originally Posted by anista

Sure, and I get that, but what we shouldn't forget is that chan and zen always have been very philosophically inclined, writing ominous volumes about dogma, practice, philosophy, etc. This intellectual side is often dismissed, I feel, in many samghas today, and instead, cryptic answers or other methods to point directly to the truth is employed. Nothing wrong with that, but there is also nothing wrong with having discussions on intellectual matters - it helps, if nothing else, to provide the samgha with the theoretical foundation for the practice.

---

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree! I was sure I was giving a clear philosophical answer! Okay then, let me spell it out.

We might think that "Buddha Nature" ( buddhadhatu ) is like a box of powdered "chocolate pudding mix". In the mix already there is all the chocolate, all the flavor of Buddha already ... as well as all the potential to become a Buddha (chocolate pudding) too. However, it is also not yet ready, not yet complete! In that way, we might say the mix is all the chocolate, already Buddha, already complete ... but nonetheless needs to be cooked up into pudding (= Buddha) until which it is not ready and complete.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_2DTWFQf3sC...0/100_3278.jpg

And this is true!

We have to make the pudding (= practice) to realize its full flavor. We cannot taste the pudding without first making the pudding ( = practice). The mix by itself is not sufficient without practice, following the recipe. What's more, if we do it badly (practice poorly, not enough, out of balance) ... too much heat, not enough heat, not enough stirring, too much or too little milk (milk = Precepts) ... the pudding will not turn out good, be flat or get burned! Yuck!

But, if we do it well, PUDDING! We can dip in a spoon ... and taste the pudding! We can taste Buddhaness! Yummy!

http://www.craftyrachel.com/blog/wp-...latespoons.jpg


But, then again, the above image of "Buddha nature" is not quite complete.

Because, once we taste the pudding we realize that ... the whole process, the pans and spoons and stove and whole kitchen and every step of the way, was pudding pudding-ing pudding ... Buddha Buddha-ing Buddha ... the chocolate is Buddha pudding, the milk and heat too, the cooking is the Buddha's cooking Buddha and ... well, the cook is made of chocolate through and through. A chocolate pudding man cooking chocolate pudding!

http://rlv.zcache.com/chocolate_man_...8f263i_400.jpg

In fact, it is quite like the pudding cooking (cooking = pudding-ing) the pudding, then the pudding tasting (tasting = pudding-ing) the pudding. Pudding pudding-ing pudding, then pudding puddhing-ing pudding. PUDDHA PUDDHA-ING PUDDHA! In this way, we realize that the pudding was already made, already ready all along ... everything though and through pudding ... even without our cooking it (but we had to cook to realize that fact). The pudding was everywhere, always and DELICIOUS! ... and be careful in stirring the pot!

Yummy in the beginning, middle and end. So, the best thing to do is just cook (practice) dilligently to make the pudding ... then stop and taste the pudding as its bubbling, lick the spoon, enjoy!

Leave any part of the above recipe out and the pudding is flat.

Something like that. Hard to make it any philosophically clearer. 8)

And if any of the above recipe is too complicated for you ... no matter. Just sit, savor the chocolate!

My point is: Why waste too much time having a philosophical debate about pudding and the nature of pudding mix? A chicken and egg debate on "what came first, the pudding or the mix?" :roll: Oh sure, a little debate and comparing notes on the best way to fool with the recipe or the best temperature is fine ...

but in the end ... just sit down and TASTE THE CHOCOLATE! :)

One does not overly philosophize about chocolate, its chemical make-up, or the favorite color of the President of the Jello Pudding Company. One just sits down and TASTES THE CHOCOLATE!

Gassho, J

http://www.greenzer.com/blog/blog_im...by-seltzer.jpg

PS - "alaya-vijnana" is like the cupboard where all the ingredients are kept. :twisted:

Can it be explained any clearer than that? :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jundo

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree! I was sure I was giving a clear philosophical answer! Okay then, let me spell it out.

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First of all, great post! It really was, and it actually helped me visualize buddhadhatu. In a yummy way.

Second of all, I apologize, but my response wasn't meant for you, Jundo (or, well, all my posts are meant for anyone who wants them) but was meant as a response to what I'm often seeing here, that is: somebody starts talking about intellectual stuff, and then, sooner or later, someone comes in and says "Hey guys, stop talking about this, go practice instead". Like intellectual debates aren't supposed to exist in a zen samgha, or that they are stealing time from sitting practice. Maybe for some folks, they are. In my case, no, not at all. There is a time and place for everything. Well, anyway, it gets tiresome after a while, and lately I've been starting to react badly when I'm constantly seeing this attitude (not just here though, in any zen buddhist forum). But that is, of course, my own problem. I should strive to correct this.

Also, as I said, I have no problem with cryptical answers, or short answers, or poetic answers for that matter. But I also have no problem with intellectual answers. Each to his own, right?

Philip

Hi Anista,

Understood. I am a lawyer by training (long ago), with a library of about 500 books on Buddhism, Buddhist philosophy, Buddhist history ... and I consider myself a pretty philosophical fellow. I also -do not- appreciate the folks who just yell "MU" or "GO SIT" in the face of any question.

YES, our way is both SITTING/PRACTICE and AN UNDERSTANDING OF BUDDHIST TEACHINGS/PHILOSOPHY/HISTORY to mold and guide the SITTING/PRACTICE. I have spoken about that MANY TIMES (you can see some of my library in this one) ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/sit-a-long/with ... right.html

HOWEVER. we in the Zen corner of Buddhism tend to have a QUICK THRESHOLD and SHORT FUSE for what constitutes "angels on the head of a pin" "chicken and egg" debates and discussions. Such discussions can sometimes aid practice, but often they detract from our way ... BECAUSE WE ARE SO MUCH ABOUT LETTING QUESTIONS BE, LETTING QUESTIONS FADE AWAY AND BECOME THUS "NON-QUESTIONS" ... DROPPING "THE CHICKEN" AND DROPPING "THE EGG".

I do not mean "ignorance", FAR FROM IT! But dropping some questions is often an answer! For example, if you saw two fellows debating the question "Which fly higher and with more grace? green flying elephants or pink flying elephants" ... you might tell them to drop the flying elephants! (maybe drop the bottle of scotch too! 8) )

I wrote the following ...

Quote:

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[Someone wrote me to ask] "Does Satori provide the answer to the ‘big questions’?"

Our Practice provides some very specific (and wonderful) answers to some 'big questions'. For example, Buddhism provides very clear guidance for and understanding of the origins of human suffering in this life. The "Four Noble Truths". for example, provide a formula that effectively describes the sickness and provides the medicine for its treatment or cure.

Our Practice provides some very wonderful answers to other 'big questions' by instructing us to drop the questions as meaningless. Some questions are as pointless as our asking 'how many angels can gather on the head of a pin' or 'what color are the rabbits that live on the moon'. An example of such a question may be "where do we 'go' when we die, and where did we 'come from' before we were born" (I will talk about that in another posting later this week).

Hand in hand with the above, many questions we regularly ask may just be phrased poorly, biased by our narrow, anthropocentric human understanding. An example of that may be "why do 'bad things' happen in the world". When we change the way the question is asked, answers begin to present themselves (I will talk about that too in the coming days). Hitting the "reset button' on so many of our misguided questions are what most of those old Koans are on about, by the way.

And sometimes, Buddhism provides no answer to some 'big questions' (although that may be a kind of 'answer' too!). One such question may be whether or not there is actually a 'God' in the Judeo-Christian sense (and whether, for example, Jesus was 'His Son'). To such questions, our Zen Practice allows us to believe what we wish, or to take no stand at all. I often say:

Is there a "God named 'Jehovah'"? .......... If so, live human life, fetch wood and carry water.

Is there not some "God named 'Jehovah'"? .......... If not, live human life, fetch wood and carry water.

I will also examine that, and related matters, in future postings.

Oh, and I will also talk about what that word 'Satori' means in the coming days.

So, my response for today: Sometimes YES! Sometimes NO! Sometimes WHAT QUESTION?!?!

Gassho, Jundo

-->posting.php?mode=edit&f=24&p=16814

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So, when I find folks trying to "discover Buddha Nature" by discussing "what is Buddha Nature" ... I use the example I mentioned ...

It is much like debating and discussing "what is Chocolate?" One should not overly philosophize about chocolate, its chemical make-up, whether "chocolate is a "thing" or a "color" or a "taste" or a "mental state", whether chocolate exists everywhere in the dish or only on the tongue or in the eye which sees it, whether the chocolate comes before the cocoa bean or after the bean, or the shoe size of the President of the Chocolate Company.

One just sits down and TASTES THE CHOCOLATE! 8)

Something like that. We have a quick threshold for "angel on heads of pins."

Gassho, J

Will you please stop with the chocolate metaphors? It causes unecessary suffering to those of us who are not allowed it. And NO! it not all good practice, chocolate pravation is horrible.

Many thanks

Gassho

Joe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Onshin

Will you please stop with the chocolate metaphors?

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Back to banana ketchup it is!

Metta,

Saijun

ugh no Chocolate?


Now another way of understanding the pudding metaphor could lead some to believe that ours is a practice of cannibalism; if you all were made of pudding, I'm sorry but I think my hunger would take over. hahahaahah :mrgreen:

Someone said this recently; I completely forget (I'm sorry :roll: ). But that's the rub with our practice. We could just sit back and say all is pudding, but we have to realize it and to realize it we have to do the work and the search.

By the way, if you guys would like to have a serious discussion of the nature of "Buddha Nature", please do and I do not mean to discourage you. Just start a new thread and go ahead. It is actually an interesting topic, although also a bit "eye of the beholder".

Same for anyone who wants to debate "green flying elephants"! :wink:

I cannot guaranty that either discussion will "take off", but let's see, :)

Gassho, J

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2313/...30fd5912f0.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jundo

[Someone wrote me to ask] "Does Satori provide the answer to the ‘big questions’?"

Gassho, J

---

I think perhaps this question indicates a misunderstanding of the experience of satori. Satori is an intense experiential experience of understanding some aspect of that great understanding we call enlightenment. Satori IS understanding. Satori doesn't "provide" anything, in perhaps the same way that music doesn't provide sound, music IS sound (of what ever sort of sound(s) the particular music is). People seem to think satori is some exotic experience, actually if you can think of some moment when some aspect of your life or reality or whatever was unclear and suddenly you Got It! Suddenly everything about a particular situation was suddenly absolutely clear and vivid and In Your Face (in a wonderful way)(and in your whole being). This is similar to satori only a satori is a much more intense version of this. Perhaps this is useful. For some zennies (or anyone) this happens at some random moment. For some zennies, the experience of understanding is like the dew of many years gently soaking into ones being. And for many people it is both sudden and gradual.

For everyone, sudden or gradual, understanding comes over and over throughout one's life. This reflects the second vow "Delusions are inexhaustible - I vow to end them". And in my experience, if I don't understand, reality will keep slamming into my face until I do understand, stop being in denial or whatever.

I hope this was useful to someone
gassho,
rowan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jinho

For some zennies (or anyone) this happens at some random moment. For some zennies, the experience of understanding is like the dew of many years gently soaking into ones being. And for many people it is both sudden and gradual.

For everyone, sudden or gradual, understanding comes over and over throughout one's life. This reflects the second vow "Delusions are inexhaustible - I vow to end them". And in my experience, if I don't understand, reality will keep slamming into my face until I do understand, stop being in denial or whatever.

I hope this was useful to someone
gassho,
rowan

---

Thank you, Rowan. This above said it very nicely. Like diving into the sea, or walking through a mist as one's sleeves become damp.

Gassho, J

Very very fine answer, Jinho. Very fine look on the processs from a Rinzai viewpoint. Perfectly right.
Now, in Dogen teachings, the ultimate cannot be known for when it is, it is not outside of itself. You can only see something if you separate yourself from it, the experience of non-duality leaves no trace whatsoever. That's why a statement like : I have satori is a very crooked statement. One of my first teachers used to say: naturally, automatically, spontaneously... in this, no feed back, just action and awakening as one. People endlessly mentionning their maha kensho ( you certainly know who I am talking about...) are doing a good job bragging about a very limited and crooked experience. Another way to put it is that there is no enlightenment outside activity. Enlightened activity is the blossoming-blooming-unfolding of as-it-isness and in it, no room for navel gazing and once crossed no anniversary celebrations either.
The Dharma is the invitation for everybody to naturally unfold their true nature. Quite ordinary and yet very very wonderful.
A last word: the day you don't mind anymore about being enlightened and stop chasing smokes and mirrors, the day you just taste water as water and wine as wine, is the day the gate of activity is wide open.


gassho

Taigu

I wonder if the conversation might not be abetted by losing some of the more cliched terms like 'unfolding the Buddha nature', etc. Not because they're wrong, but because they've been repeated so many times that they start to lose their effectiveness - it's not the fault of the terms, if we could just come to them with a fresh mind it would be no problem. Maybe it's just me.

That's why Jundo's pudding metaphor, as cheesy as it may be perceived, at least makes you approach the things he's talking about without automatically thinking you understand because you've heard it so much. Or it did for me...

So yeah - Zen is useless so why do you sit? I think zazen being actually useless is not the same as the story 'zen is useless'. My ex-girlfriend used to ask me why I meditated and I'd say 'there is no reason'. She'd say, 'if there is no reason, why do it?'. If I felt like being enigmatic, I'd say, 'Yes.'. If I felt more compassionate, I'd say, 'you'd have to do it to understand - I can't explain it very well.'.

When I sit, zazen becomes useless just by 'engaging the clutch' and not being driven by thoughts. The gears aren't turning, and without anything to push against, the engine drops to a low idle - very occasionally it sputters to a timeless stop before percolating again. Often the gears get engaged in trying to describe what just happened before the clutch is re-engaged.

'Zazen is useless' as an idea is a useless idea that can keep you from sitting zazen or it can be an admonition to stop chasing some peak experience like a dog chasing a car.

'Zazen is useless' in actuality is just zazen - if it moves through your mind without getting stuck anywhere.

Lots of things get stuck in my mind, hitting landmines, causing a lot of heat and light and urgency. Maybe more for me than others. Zazen though, lets things be open so mental objects can pass through.

IMHO.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

'Zazen is useless' as an idea is a useless idea that can keep you from sitting zazen or it can be an admonition to stop chasing some peak experience like a dog chasing a car.

'Zazen is useless' in actuality is just zazen - if it moves through your mind without getting stuck anywhere

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Thanks, really gave "zazen is useless" a different flavour for me,
_()_
Peter

I loved your post Chet! :D

/Pontus

Chet, this is not a supermarket. Feel welcome to ignore my pointless posts and I will be happy not to have to worry about customer satisfaction ( such are the ways of spiritual materialism: teach me what I want to hear).

A fresh mind indeed. Ten thousand times you may repeat and read the same sentence until...You see, Chet, just a suggestion: take the fukanzazengi, repeat it until your very bones are soaked with it. That's the Soto way, same old-new-always-old-but-so-very fresh zazen. Repeat it until you die and beyond.

Pop art and excitement and all the thrills of concepts and empty chats and philosophy...Not my cup of tea.

gassho

Taigu

Meanwhile, carried away by your grudge or whatever you may call it, you miss the very core of what I try to say.

Your post is interesting, and you play the same old songs of clouds passing...turning clouds into "mental objects"

Good old song that, unlike you, when found in somebody else's mouth, I like very much.

Hey Taigu,

I really didn't mean to set you off or even really criticize you - I think I latched on to your particular phrase just because it was the most recent similar one I'd heard. My apologies for any unintended offense. I probably should have been more careful seeing as I've said some very critical and reactive things to you frequently AND recently and I could have used more thought in the possible meaning that might have been read into it. For what it's worth, I did admit in the original post that the problem could very well be mine. I think that the reason I brought it up is because it actually did take two readings of your post for me to realize that I hadn't at first let the words sink in - because of their well-worn familiarity. I didn't intend to imply that their familiarity was the same as insincerity.

I'm sorry you didn't appreciate my post and that you find my intentions or expression suspect. Much of this is my fault and to be expected considering my frequent antagonism and criticism of your teaching style.

I'll strive to do better. Gassho.

Chet

Thank you, Chet. I also tend to read things far too quickly (an old accademic habit).

gassho

Taigu

Quote:

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

That's why Jundo's pudding metaphor, as cheesy as it may be perceived, at least makes you approach the things he's talking about without automatically thinking you understand because you've heard it so much. Or it did for me...

---

Agreed. Any chocolate references will grab my attention. I enjoyed his metaphor so much I shared it with my wife who also thought it was great...and gave us a good laugh.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

When I sit, zazen becomes useless just by 'engaging the clutch' and not being driven by thoughts. The gears aren't turning, and without anything to push against, the engine drops to a low idle - very occasionally it sputters to a timeless stop before percolating again. Often the gears get engaged in trying to describe what just happened before the clutch is re-engaged.

---

Also really liked this analogy a lot! Can you explain a bit more on what you mean by the last line? Are you then saying that in the absence of thought (disengaged gears) zazen exists and any attempt at descriptions we lose the essence of what zazen is?

Gassho,
Shawn

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Originally Posted by shards

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

That's why Jundo's pudding metaphor, as cheesy as it may be perceived, at least makes you approach the things he's talking about without automatically thinking you understand because you've heard it so much. Or it did for me...

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Agreed. Any chocolate references will grab my attention. I enjoyed his metaphor so much I shared it with my wife who also thought it was great...and gave us a good laugh.

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

When I sit, zazen becomes useless just by 'engaging the clutch' and not being driven by thoughts. The gears aren't turning, and without anything to push against, the engine drops to a low idle - very occasionally it sputters to a timeless stop before percolating again. Often the gears get engaged in trying to describe what just happened before the clutch is re-engaged.

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Also really liked this analogy a lot! Can you explain a bit more on what you mean by the last line? Are you then saying that in the absence of thought (disengaged gears) zazen exists and any attempt at descriptions we lose the essence of what zazen is?

Gassho,
Shawn

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I don't think that a disengaged clutch is absence of thought, just absence of being 'pushed' by it. When the clutch is pressed, you can still rev the engine pretty loud - it's just that the whole apparatus of an identity isn't activated by it, or it's minimally activated.

And then sometimes, very rarely for my ADHD mind, the noise itself putters out and everything just seems 'just thus' - sensation is not producing any commentary at all. This lack of commentary is usually so startling that some aspect of comsciousness notices it and then begins a very loud commentary and then often a sense of identity arises. Then in a bit, the clutch is re-engaged, the excitement dropped, and the mumbling, often incoherent commentary rambles in the background like a snapped string - it's only very minimally giving rise to identity if at all.

Often in my non-zazen thinking and life, the commentary is like a very tight string or like a sharp tool - and everything it touches rattles and creates noise and drags or creates a sense of 'me' along with it. What's most ironically funny is when this very noisy, sharp 'commentary dragging a me' actually thinks that it represents 'lack of engaged commentary'.

Also, Steve Hagen's books and talks are some of my favorite.

I agree with Adam that Johnson's post was well-put. It dovetails with my experience in beginning with Zen. At first, I did it to "learn to mediate" and to "calm my mind", and when I expressed this, I was abruptly browbeaten by someone that was trying to get me to realize the pointlessness of it.

This upset me (sensitive person that I am) and kind of drove me away for a while. However, after some time, I understand that this is a normal point to go to -- how do we get to exploring some spiritual ideas, or any ideas, anyway? We are looking for some benefit.

What is important is, as Johnson says in his post, that you'll get to the pointless point of pointlessness no matter what idea you start from if you are open to it (i.e., you aren't a spiritual materialist to begin with). The point you carried in grows further and further away as you sit.

I would have liked to discover this on my own rather than having it thrown at me, but either way, it happened.

I listen to Norman Fischer's talks, and in one of them, he mentions that people come to Zen invariably looking for some kind of benefit like that...nirvana, relaxation, calm, clarity...and while he knows we won't find that, he affirms that it doesn't matter why we come looking, it just matters that we come, and end up sitting. The pointlessness will be (not-)there when we get around to that non-place.

Gassho
Julia

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Originally Posted by murasaki

I listen to Norman Fischer's talks, and in one of them, he mentions that people come to Zen invariably looking for some kind of benefit like that...nirvana, relaxation, calm, clarity...and while he knows we won't find that....
Gassho
Julia

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Um, many people have found nirvana, relaxation, calm and/or clarity as a result of doing zazen. All the people I have ever talked to in fact.

rowan/Jinho

(Lady M - love the new picture but the old one was great too!)

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Originally Posted by Jinho

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Originally Posted by murasaki

I listen to Norman Fischer's talks, and in one of them, he mentions that people come to Zen invariably looking for some kind of benefit like that...nirvana, relaxation, calm, clarity...and while he knows we won't find that....
Gassho
Julia

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Um, many people have found nirvana, relaxation, calm and/or clarity as a result of doing zazen. All the people I have ever talked to in fact.

rowan/Jinho

(Lady M - love the new picture but the old one was great too!)

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Sometimes the best things are found by leaving the hunt aside and searching over distant hills, realizing what's here all along.

I like the Chinese Finger Trap example ...

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1451

this one too ...

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2666

Gassho, J

The dishes are dirty. Wash them!

I really love that post on "How to Attain Enlightenment". Thank you Jundo-sensei!

It really hits the Middle Path non-nail on its non-head. hahahah

I saved that to a text file so I can read it regularly.

Gassho,

Risho

I didn't mean for my previous post to sound so definitively dismissive of various states of calm and/or kensho.

I was trying to express my experience as one of coming to Zen with the idea of having that as THE goal of meditation, and right away being told that that's not what zazen is "for" -- these are difficult things to grasp for a newbie, and it had me confused and conflicted for a long time.

Jinho, if everyone you've ever talked to has attained these states from their zazen, then I congratulate them! It doesn't seem to come as easily for me. I am still learning, please bear with me.

Gassho
Julia

I don't believe that anyone is perfectly enlightened. We are totally imperfect. So we keep practicing and trying to do the best we can. Its more of a process and paying attention to it is sometimes difficult. The calm is in the eye of the storm and its pointless because its always moving.

Hi Jinho,


I think what Julia meant is that there is a big difference between what you expect to find-realize-get and what you end up with in the process. Sawaki Kodo used to decribe Zazen as a way to loose everything.

gassho


Taigu

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Originally Posted by Taigu

Hi Jinho,


I think what Julia meant is that there is a big difference between what you expect to find-realize-get and what you end up with in the process. Sawaki Kodo used to decribe Zazen as a way to loose everything.

gassho


Taigu

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Yes, you lose everything. We are acquisitive by ego-nature, but zen is (IMHO) a path of letting so much go. Maybe all of us are still a bit heavy with the unnecessary (me especially).

Thank you, Taigu!

(Also, sorry to Julia for being so difficult with you in the past)

Hagen is good at communicating that zazen is not just a bigger, prettier chain to carry. When we sit together, we invite one another to put down our chains - not put on prettier chains. I'm very resistant to Dharma names, rituals, and suspicious of teachers. This is also a heavy egoic chain.

*gassho*

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

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Originally Posted by Taigu

Hi Jinho,


I think what Julia meant is that there is a big difference between what you expect to find-realize-get and what you end up with in the process. Sawaki Kodo used to decribe Zazen as a way to loose everything.

gassho


Taigu

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Yes, you lose everything. We are acquisitive by ego-nature, but zen is (IMHO) a path of letting so much go. Maybe all of us are still a bit heavy with the unnecessary (me especially).

Thank you, Taigu!

(Also, sorry to Julia for being so difficult with you in the past)

Hagen is good at communicating that zazen is not just a bigger, prettier chain to carry. When we sit together, we invite one another to put down our chains - not put on prettier chains. I'm very resistant to Dharma names, rituals, and suspicious of teachers. This is also a heavy egoic chain.

*gassho*

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after loosing everything for a moment or even if 'still a bit heavy with the unnecessary (me especially)' this is a good song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1KtScrqtbc[/video]]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1KtScrqtbc
:)

for my brothers and sisters