As a Native American might I provide the third option of “both”? Depending on which part of the country/landscape you’re in, it could be a more hard leather shoe type or soft sole slipperish type. gassho1:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Onka
Gassho,
Jesse
ST
There are problems with symbols and its interpretations. Take the following images as an example:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jundo
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...da5c935dfb.pnghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...9e389a9cc5.png
JUNDO: GRAPHIC HOLOCAUST IMAGEs REMOVED DUE TO REPORTS OF BEING TRIGGERING TO SOME MEMBERS
How should we interpret the Star of David?
Gassho, Jishin, STLah
Yes.
We are about peace and against violence, discrimination, ethnic cleansing and genocide. That is from our Vows and Precepts, Ahimsa and such.
Did you doubt that, Jishin? Your pictures do not shock, for they are the very Samsara, sometimes so ugly, we are here to see through and live in peace within as best we can.
The Star of David on a camp uniform is not a flag, but the very symbol of "we are different, you are different" that flags represent. The Nazis sure loved their flags!
https://www.sbs.com.au/movies/sites/...ime=1471456424
Gassho, J
STLah
The Israeli flag means a lot of things to different people. It is a place of comfort and peace for people to go to during time of suffering and this is why you see it everywhere. To minimize its importance in anyway or fashion is to deny millions relief from suffering. Ponder this: poof - no more flag. What now? Where do we put the millions of Jews in Israel or the millions of Jews world wide that now have no place to go?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jundo
I personally have an interest in the flag as I am an involuntary member of the tribe of Judah. This also makes me an Israeli Citizen the moment I set foot in Israel. The same goes for you. My great grandfather was murdered in Dachau and my great grandmother and grandmother have the middle name of “Sara” which was a gift from Hitler to more easily identify German Jews. My children would be murdered too in Hitler’s Germany and so would yours.
Regarding symbolism of the clothing that I wear, I don’t generally wear republican or democratic clothing. On occasion I wear gay friendly symbolism as my father was gay and we have several friends that are gay and we are supportive. Regarding Buddhist symbolism, well, my whole torso is a Buddha tattoo. My right arm, the one that can not be hidden well has a prominent Star of David which has served a reminder to honor my heritage. As I told you privately, I have also picked up more of an interest in Judaism and have been studying from a historical and intellectual perspective the roots of our people. Israel means “struggle with god” so Judaism is perfectly compatible with Soto Zen.
I wish you would be more respectful of the Israeli flag. It does not mean what you think it means.
Gassho, Jishin, ST
Who says I am not respectful of the Israeli flag? I lost relatives in the Holocaust too. I hope Jews have a place where they can go, Palestinians have a place where they can go. we all have a safe place where we can safely go. Please go plant a tree in Israel, protest the treatment of Palestinians if you wish, and raise as many flags as you wish. Who is stopping anyone from doing so?Quote:
Ponder this: poof - no more flag. What now? Where do we put the millions of Jews in Israel or the millions of Jews world wide that now have no place to go?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...illage-un-says
Just not in this Sangha, where we step beyond flags and borders, me vs. you, to know another kind of peace and union.
Gassho, Jundo
STLah
Several photos that you took down had a symbol of an Israeli flag that I wear in my day to day activities. You have placed a higher value on some symbols than others (devaluated the Israeli flag) by chosing wich ones to take down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jundo
Regarding the middle east history and solution: it's complicated and a work in progress but you certainly should not make things worse by taking away Israel (the Israeli flag).
Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__
I did not take it away. The flag still is there, just not here. And, outside this Sangha and its pictures, you are free to wear and not wear what you wish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jishin
Yes, I take down some symbols and not others, that is correct. Please post all the peace signs and rainbow flags that you wish (so long as they are not a national flag).
I left your wonderful son's "Shalom" shirt because "Shalom" = "Salam" = Peace.
Gassho, J
STLah
Ok. Here is some Shalom for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jundo
Time to go to bed.
!שלום
Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...3179b755f2.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...8ab1f03651.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...6c88954b2f.jpg
Lovely Shaloms, Jishim, and no problem with those at all. [gassholook]
But the Legend of Zelda shirt is not allowed, as the game openly supports the kingdom of Hyrule in its battle for liberation from Ganon, the evil warlord demon. Too political, not to mention discriminatory against evil warlord demons. Also, in the upper left corner of the shirt, a flag with the Hylean crest can clearly be seen surrounding a weapon of violence. In a Zendo, we are beyond Zelda.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...AU&ec=45714079
Make Hyrule Great Again!
(just kidding) :p
Gassho, J
STLah
This post just brought me great joy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jundo
gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah
The picture of cat and bird will be allowed, Evan, as it does not express favoritism for either feline or fowl.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaurdianaq
However, if the pink gloves + cat are some sneaky attempt to convey the "Pink Pussy" Hat message while giving the bird to hidden "hands" which control male dominated society, it will not be permitted.
https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/c...e=image%2Fjpeg
(just jokin) :encouragement:
Gassho, J
STLah
I'll admit out of any interpretation for the random glove on the floor, that was not something I was expecting... And I'm trying to figure out if that was satire or not... I'll be honest I just wanted to lighten the mood with some animal pics...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jundo
gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah
It was satire. :cool:
I'll be honest... you scared me XD I looked it up and saw that the Pussyhat movement was a real thing and I'm just thinking "Oh no someone tried to find deeper meaning from the mess in my room..."Quote:
Originally Posted by Jundo
I even remember considering making a joke saying "what could the pink glove mean!?!?!"
gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah
;)gassho2
Just wanted to say thank you to Meitou and Anne for their input. The prompts have been stimulating and given focus. Perhaps we will all need to pitch in with ideas
and suggestions to keep the vibrancy in the group going. Thinking positive :)
Gassho
Jinyo
Sat today
I'm not going to participate in this forum any more. This has turned into a Facebook thread, with a number of people just wanting to shock, and I don't come to Treeleaf for that.
I'm also very sad that there are certain people here on Treeleaf who don't understand what right speech is.
Gassho,
Kirk
sat
Exactly. I came here for Dogen, Dharma, zazen and a practice of un- identifying my true self.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirkmc
Gassho
Sat
Is it a number of people, or just one?Quote:
with a number of people just wanting to shock
The Art Circle is supposed to be an expression of practice as is everywhere else on the forum and mostly is exactly that.
Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-
Jishin - I think everyone agree pictures like those share a lesson we should never forget because each of us has the capability to do and become that, to transform our enemies into subhumans that we exert our revenge upon.
Gassho
Risho
-stlah
A gentle reminder for us all about what constitutes Right Speech:
1. Is it factual / true?
2. Is it helpful / beneficial?
3. Is it spoken with kindness and good-will? (with a positive intention for all involved)
4. Is it pleasant / endearing? (spoken in a way the other person can hear)
5. Is it timely? (this can be the toughest - the other four can be true, but sometimes now is just not the time to say it...)
But you don't have to take my word for it:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipi....058.than.html
Gassho,
Sekishi
#sat
Just to say that any post which seems provocative for the sake of it will be deleted unless Jundo overrules me, which he is free to do.
The guidance which Sekishi gives above is very helpful (gassho1) and reminder #1 does not overrule the other four.
Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-
Hi Kokuu,Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokuu
I may be misinterpreting you, but the post you deleted contained pictures of the Holocaust with a question posed to you as to why you felt that I wanted to use the pictures for shock value and with no other motive.
I have carefully read Sekishi's suggestion and feel that a picture paints a thousand words and the pictures you deleted are appropriate in the context of the discussion that we are having. Please examine your motives carefully.
Here is an interesting link that talks about not wanting to look at our human history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial
Gassho, Jishin, ST
This short message many will think ironic coming from me but the truth is that I've never set out to be a disruptive element within the Treeleaf Sangha. Moreover, if anything all I've done is bring a different perspective than the dominant narrative.
I need to say that the way this Sangha has publicly represented itself since the US election has been pretty ordinary. In my humble opinion there was no single person to blame for what transpired within the publicly accessible Art forum but it has resulted in two valued members of the Sangha pulling back from moderating roles. Shame on us all. Yes ALL! This public display was nothing short of a pissing contest where the main players know better.
Jishin, you are an intelligent man who understands the human condition very well. I would humbly suggest that you could've taken your brinksmanship to the pŕivate messaging arena where you and Wikipedia could battle Jundo and Wikipedia. If I can try and do better and be better then you can too.
Jundo, you didn't need to win. You could've and should've closed the thread concerned a lot earlier. Instead it came across to me at least that you needed to prove a point. Fair enough, but how about reading the mood of the Sangha a bit better? Yes, when practicing Shikantaza we should leave politics at the door but in the lead up and immediate aftermath of what is a hugely important political time many of us have needed to feel ok about expressing our feelings with our fellow Sangha sisters, brothers and others. Again, of course you're right about leaving politics at the door and yes I need to hold onto labels lighter but post-election Jundo you didn't need to publicly duke it out on the Art forum of all places despite that being where the alleged infringement occurred. You too could've taken the high road and gone to private messaging as you've done with me many times after giving one of my posts the hook but instead kept the pissing contest going with the use of jokes, emojis and images you knew would inflame rather placate Jishin.
Yes, Treeleaf is yours. Yes, you're the judge, jury and interpreter but what has been left as a public record of Treeleaf is an unnecessary stain on us all.
This brings me to the rest of us...
A couple of folk tried to diffuse things or redirect this train wreck but we didn't do enough. Personally I was quietly begging another Priest or Unsui to intervene, particularly "the thread killer" Sekishi haha but alas I watched a train wreck take us all with it.
I'm beyond caring if this post gets me banned to be honest because that's what I've been... honest.
I respect Jundo as a teacher despite openly admitting that privately he and I have had some colourful interactions. Just because Jundo is our chosen teacher does not mean he's perfect. He's not and will admit that like the rest of us he's perfectly imperfect. We can respect our teacher while also questioning his timing or communicated teaching.
If this is the last I'm heard from here at Treeleaf I wish you all well. I will be practicing with you all from rural Queensland, Australia hoping that Treeleaf continues to be a tremendous Zen resource and an open minded place of practice growth.
Especially now, be kind to yourselves and look out for each other.
With warmest regards
Gassho
Onka/Anna
Sat today
*I acknowledge but don't apologise for going over 3 sentences.
I'm not sure what this is about: I dont read every single thread so I'm not hip to whatever is going on. I can't be alone in this perspective, so perhaps even this posting could have been taken off line?
Gassho,
Hensho
Satlah
Sent from my LM-Q710.FGN using Tapatalk
This post was posted in a members only forum specifically so that members only can read it. The post above is a little vague but enough of us saw the unfolding mess so will know exactly where and what happened. What I wrote could not have been shared privately nor should it have.
Gassho
Onka
ST
Hi Onka,
You are referring to the thread in the Art Forum where Jishin posted a picture of Joe Biden, and some other pictures of Israeli and American Flags, which I objected to because we do not engage in partisan politics in this Forum (including the Art Forum), and we avoid specific candidates, political symbols (e.g., MAGA hats), and national flags, etc. I later removed the pictures of Joe Biden and the flags after first just attaching a note that they are really not acceptable. Jishin responded by posting graphic pictures of the Holocaust. We left the Holocaust photos with a comment such as "This does not shock us, as we Zen folks look right at the ugliness of Samsara," but the priests and I also discussed whether to pull them down. Here is where the discussion began:
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...l=1#post275285
I don't like to close threads, and we rarely do around here. I like to keep discussions of such Forum policy issues out in the open, as I did here (and did with some of Onka's posts in the past) although I ALSO engaged in some private PM'ing with the people involved to try to settle things. Is that wrong? Why should I have hidden the discussion? Why not try to diffuse tensions with a little humor here and there too?
I am sorry if our two hosts of the Art Forum decided to quite (not at my request), but I try to avoid partisan politics in any part of the Forum.
Gassho, Jundo
STLah
Thank you for your thoughts, Onka.Quote:
A couple of folk tried to diffuse things or redirect this train wreck but we didn't do enough. Personally I was quietly begging another Priest or Unsui to intervene, particularly "the thread killer" Sekishi haha but alas I watched a train wreck take us all with it.
Did it really take us all with it? Interactions like this are part of being human and less than perfect handling of situations will also happen as we try to deal with what arises as best we can.
Did anyone learn for the first time that Treeleaf Zendo is not perfect and sometimes there are disruptions and conflicts? Maybe.
What I would say, is that these kinds of situations do arise from time to time and then are dealt with in one way or another and we carry on.
In that way, it is not unlike our practice with the precepts.
Jundo and the rest of us in the training group try to have a light hand in terms of moderation and it may be that sometimes we need to step in earlier. But, we are doing our best.
We try to learn from each experience like this and strive to do better next time something similar arises. But, each time something happens like this, it is still part of the great whole of flowing reality and to expect life, even in a Zendo, to not contain moments of attrition, would be to deny reality.
Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-
By the way, it is very difficult to balance this "Freedom of Artistic Expression" and "No Partisan Politics in the Sangha" rule. I just wrote this to our priests.
(Also, if I may, I am going to merge this discussion, and the discussion with Jishin, in a single thread on the topic in the Art Forum)Quote:
I also want to keep the "no politics, no partisan political symbols (like MAGA hats), no candidates" rule for the Art forum. It is the same for all the Forum. For example, I am happy to celebrate "women's equality in leadership and government" as a general principle in keeping with our modern Buddhist ethical views (it sure wasn't the traditional view), but I hesitate to celebrate "Ruth Bader Ginsburg" or "Kamala Harris" by name, because then others will want to celebrate Amy Coney Barrett (RBG's conservative replacement), Ivanka, Margaret Thatcher, etc. etc. by name, and we are into partisan politics. It must apply to our art forum too. Freedom of art expression can only go so far in our Sangha, and we cannot allow images that are pornographic, racist, based on the theme of "praise Jesus," "Free the Palestinians" (or Tibet), God Bless America, "Get Russia Out of Ukraine," "Trump was Robbed" etc. etc. in our art forum no matter how any of us personally feel about those causes. We are not a public museum, but a group dedicated to art for purposes of Buddhist and Zen practice.
Furthermore, really in original conception, the art forum was to have a Zen/Buddhist themed emphasis, but it is fine to have a general art emphasis if that is preferred. I am not sure myself what is a "Zen" theme versus general art.
Gassho, Jundo
STLah
I hope no one quits anything; I mean we're normally pretty easy going; sometimes people get ruffled, but we are all one big Sangha and, especially if you have a dharma name, please stay; we've all taken the time to study and sew the rakusu. We don't always agree, but those vows should really mean something.
Please no one quit- I know you don't always see it, but I get pretty peeved sometimes, and I'm ready to quit. I think Jishin said he quits all the time. [claps] It's just natural that we get on each others' nerves. I know sometimes I really come in "hot". I'm consciously trying to not to be so aggressive even when it's hard not to.
I mean, Onka, not to pick on you, but I've noticed a huge change in your posting for the better, and I try to follow your example.
Please no one quit. This is a special place; let's not forget that.
Gassho
Risho
-stlah
Yes Jundo, feel free to merge anything you want. It is with a huge sense of relief and an audible PHEW! that my opening post was received as it was intended, almost a plea from a beginner practitioner and Zen muppet. I always look to move forward as a person and as a practitioner of the Way, one and the same and felt real pain in Meitou's words. I just wish I could've done more for everyone concerned.
Deep bows
Onka
ST
I hear you!Quote:
Originally Posted by Onka
It's times like this that I know practice works, because maybe in the past I would have been equally exasperated, but instead I really just feel a little urgency about going to do my priest assignment without being distracted by forum drama. LOL
Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday
Hi Onka,Quote:
Originally Posted by Onka
I deal with extremely difficult situations on a daily basis due to my line of work and may have visited with 25 patients today alone. In between juggling work, being a father, husband and other duties I somehow find time to hang out at treeleaf. What anyone says here that I disagree with does not occupy space for very long. I don't have energy for grudges. I say my peace (שלום/shalom in hebrew) and somebody says theirs and we have a final arbitration at the end of the discussion. It's all good.
Arguments (without affect) are necessary to arrive at truth. My lawyer patients have been rumored to engage in fierce battles in court but are good friends during happy hour.
As I see it, I prosecuted my case to the best of my ability and the supreme court has ruled. It is a waste of my time to pursue the same case again unless there is a slight variation to the circumstances and I somehow can muster the intrapsychic energy to do so because frankly Jundo just wears you down when you battle him. :)
Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__
Yes, please cool down a few days, relax and take some walks, and then come back to Treeleaf and let's talk about other nice subjects ... that are not political. Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jishin
Gassho, J
STLah
Thank you Onka for articulating so well what I've been witnessing, I agree with every word you've written.Quote:
Originally Posted by Onka
I'd like to make it clear that Anne and I have not left TL, we, as hosts who are not needed, have only stepped down from our roles in the Art forum, and stepped back from the general forum discussions.
On behalf of Anne and myself, I thank those of you who have thanked us privately and on the forum for the work we put in here. And thank you Onka for your support.
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday lah
Hi Meitou,
This is not so, you are both most needed and appreciated, and perhaps you might consider to stay.
Gassho, JundoQuote:
... as hosts who are not needed ...
STlah
I too would like to express my gratitude to those Sangha members that offered support both on the forum and in private messages to Meitou and myself. This has been encouraging and very helpful.
bowing to all.
Anne
~lahst~
Sunset in West Texas just now.
Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__
Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...8fe31a8f30.jpg
Absolutely breathtaking Jishin.
Gassho
Onka
ST
Thank you Onka!
Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__
Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk
Wait a second, is that a tiny Joe Biden I see way over on the right there, by that tree? [scared]Quote:
Originally Posted by Jishin
JUST KIDDIN, JUST KIDDIN! :D I simply could not resist to make a funny. :p
Gassho, J
STLah
[emoji3][emoji120]Quote:
Originally Posted by Jundo
I am going to remove the more graphic holocaust photos, if that is okay. It is not because we Zen folks look away from anything ... not the sometime beauty nor sometime ugliness and violence of this world.
Rather, it is because I have had reports of it triggering a couple of folks prone to be sensitive to violence, and I don't wish to bring more suffering to them. We all know what is in the pictures. My warning at the top of the thread is not sufficient.
If there is objection for any reason, the pictures can be restored.
(Sorry to run long)
Gassho, Jundo
STLAH
Really large and damaging Spring storm just passed us. We just caught the edge thank goodness but still lost power thanks to powerlines coming down. We live in a sub-tropical climate where the warm seasons equal lots of beautiful storms.
This is an accidental shot of lightening in clouds that I captured when heading outside to literally close the shutters haha.
Maybe I'll call this shot "Mother Nature's Beautiful Accident" haha
Gassho
Onka
ST
*I acknowledge going over 3 sentences https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...de236050c8.jpg
Sent from my SM-A205YN using Tapatalk
Just to say that the original visual media thread still exists for the posting of photos and such like.
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...to-collage-etc
Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-
I agree with decreasing suffering. Here is a link to Holocaust info:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jundo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust
Here is a couple of photos that related to our discussion that are of historical significance. One is a death certificate of my great grandfather from Dachau and the other documents are documents showing how my great grandmother and grandmother had their middle name changed to “Sara” for easier identification of authorities. Sara is a biblical name.
Gassho, Jishin, ST
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...5178fe67e5.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...0703263c60.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...54db5d28c6.jpg
These are so precious! I have a fork with swastika from nazi era that my grandfather was using in Auschwitz, thankfully he survived the ordeal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jishin
Remembering our ancestors and the history is so important. However : what was your original face before your great great great great parents were born?
Gassho
Sat
Let us have a world beyond us and them, now and then, birth and death.
To realize so, we must make a world beyond excess desire, anger and violence, mine and yours, races and groups.
Here is a Koan: What leaps past Jews and Nazis??
Gassho, J
STLah
Jundo!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jundo
[emoji3]
Thank you Ania!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ania
My mother was kind of moody and when angry she would call me Hitler. So I guess my original face could be Hitler. [emoji3]
Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__