For Justice & Peace

There is rioting today in many American cities, and other places in the world as well. I cry for all victims of violence.

Someone said that the Buddha and Dogen had nothing to say about such things, but that is far from true. Yes, they both taught that we should know a reality beyond me vs. you, right and wrong, justice and injustice, peace and war, thus to encounter a Just Peace of the universe at the heart of all division. This is true. However, both men also taught that, here in our ordinary world, we should maintain a certain decorum, rightness and peace in our behavior too.

I saw a sign today carried by some Buddhists protesting. It read,"Buddhists FOR Justice AND Peace," a twist on the famous "No Justice, No Peace" which threatens anger and violent response in the face of injustice. The Buddhist attitude is something different, that we should have justice AND peace too, a two way street of reciprocity.

In Shobogenzo Bodaisatta-shishōbō ("The Four Embracing Actions of a Bodhisattva"), Master Dogen seems to have been speaking to some leader, likely a samurai and someone in the government, about the attitudes of a wise and just ruler in enforcing the laws. As with the Buddha, who often spoke to kings among his followers, Dogen counsels mutual respect and obligation of leaders to their subjects in order to maintain peace and harmony in the realm. This was Master Dogen's vision too, especially when we remember that he was probably preaching to a samurai leader carrying a sword:

Quote:

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"Even if one is so powerful as to rule the four continents, if one wants to bestow teachings of the true Way, simply one must not be greedy. ... A Chinese Emperor gave his beard as medicine to treat his retainer's illness. ... To build a bridge or launch a boat can be an act of generous giving. ...

Kind speech”means that when meeting living beings, you arouse a heart of compassion for them and offer caring and loving words. It is contrary to cruel, violent and harmful words. ... It is kind speech to speak to living beings with a mind of compassionate caring as one would to one's own baby. ... Even in reconciling enemies, and promoting harmony and peace among people, kind speech is fundamental. ... Remember that kind speech arises from a loving mind, and a loving mind arises from the seed of a compassionate heart. You should know that kind speech has the power to transform the world. ...

“Beneficial Action” is employing skillful means to benefit sentient beings of all classes, humble or noble, caring about their near and distant futures, using skillful means to help them. ... In an old story, a king wishing to greet urgent petitioners, three times stopped [] his dinner table to hear them out. He did this solely with the intention of helping others. There was never a thought in his mind that they were foreigners from other lands, not people of his kingdom, and so not truly his concern. ... So, we should seek to benefit friends and foes alike, and we should seek to benefit our own self and others alike. ... Working together in “Cooperation” means not to engage in differences. It is not to be contrary to oneself nor contrary toward others. For example, the Buddha when alive in this human world in human form identified with other human beings. ... There is the principle that after letting others identify and harmonize with us, we then cause ourself to identify and harmonize with others. Self and others, depending on the occasion, become boundless without border. ...

Wise rulers do not weary of people; therefore they might unite a large following. A "large following” means a nation, and a “wise ruler” means the leader of the nation. Leaders do not weary of the people. On the other hand, “not to weary of the people” does not mean that there are no rewards or punishments to be sometimes handed out. However, even when there is reward and punishment, there is never hatred of the people. ... Because wise rulers understand all this, they do not weary of people. Although people form into a nation, however, and seek a wise ruler, few always completely understand the truth of the wise ruler having to act as a wise ruler. Therefore, they simply hope to be supported by the wise ruler. They do not realize that they are the ones to support the wise ruler too.

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Dogen also spoke of poverty, in Zuimonki 2-2 for example, about a story in which a Buddhist teacher gave away a statue of Buddha to feed the poor: "The Buddha cut off his flesh and limbs and offered them to living beings. Even if we gave the whole body of the Buddha to people who are actually about to die of starvation, such an action would certainly be in accordance with the Buddha’s will. Even if I fall into hell because of this sin, I have just saved living beings from starvation.”

It is also said that Dogen structured his monastery, not merely as a religious establishment, but as a kind of ideal vision of social harmony. I believe he would have like to if he could, but he could not change the chaotic world outside the temple gates, so he built an ideal world inside. There, all residents were entitled to mutual respect in an atmosphere without hate, killing and violence. There were ranks, but not great disparity in treatment, and all were entitled to a safe place to sleep, food, learning and medical care (at least, as it existed in the 13th century). In turn, however, recipients were expected to do their work, their duties as citizens of the community, and to be respectful toward the others. What is vital to note about Dogen's ideal world is that rights and obligations run in ALL directions.

Today, people are angry. They have much to be angry about. (This is one of the times when the Precepts on Preserving Life and the Vow to Aid Sentient Beings calls for some Buddhists to choose to speak out). People are angry because the people dying of Covid-19 are disproportionately members of economic minorities who have been denied access to good healthcare in the past in many cases, or are otherwise suffering the effects of poverty, including a high incidence of diabetes, heart disease, the effects of drug use, alcoholism and the like. Many also feel singled out by police. If we are inspired by Dogen's vision, nobody should be denied basic access to resources, healthy food, good housing and health care, nor subject to excess violence at the hands of the authorities.

On the other hand, the police deserve respect from the citizens too, just as Dogen's people of the nation must support the ruler who keeps the law. No, there should never be violence by police which employs excess force. It is wrong, and should be both prevented and punished. On the other hand, the police in doing their jobs are often under tremendous threat, cursed and abused, resulting in a high prevalence of PTSD and the like. Simply put ... everyone should respect everyone, it runs both ways. The police should not employ excess violence, but they should also not be the targets of violence. The police should respect and speak gently with the citizens, the citizens should respect and speak gently with the police.

Furthermore, violence is wrong in the Buddhist vision, especially when done in anger. It is understandable that people are upset at perceived injustice, and they have reason to protest and make their outrage be heard. However, anger leads to anger, violence to violence. There are ways of civil disobedience that would do better, and be more effective to actually solve the problem: Have a sit down protest in front of the police station, occupy a building (do not burn it down), block a road (but let the ambulances through). Like that. As Dogen said, "kind speech has the power to transform the world."

Also, in Dogen's view, while everyone in the monastery had to be provided with basic resources and opportunities, there was also great self-responsibility to take care of oneself. Yes, some live in poverty and that should not be. Resources should be available to all, and ideally, equal opportunity. But on the other side, people must take care of themselves, stay clean, off alcohol and drugs, be civil, work hard to improve oneself too. The idea of Karma, that we each personally act for good and bad, is a system of personal self-responsibility too.

Alas, I fear that what I write above will satisfy nobody, and upset people on all sides. Some will think the Buddhist folks like me should keep out of it. Well, it is all our society and world to share. We have mutual responsibility for each other. We have self responsibility too. We must treat each other with kindness and respect.

Let us sit for a time in Zazen, beyond me and you, rioters and police, justice and injustice, food and water and any mouth to eat. Then, rising from the cushion, let us work for peace, justice, food and water for all the hungry children, peace between me and you.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Sorry Jundo but "the police deserve respect from the citizens too" is a step too far for me. I'll always be an Anarchist who follows the Buddha Dharma, not one without the other and not one undermining the other.
Gassho
Onka

Onka, I can appreciate your feelings, and I hear you.

Jundo, I really needed these words today. They helped me understand my own feelings and thoughts towards this that aligns with my practice.

Thank you.

Gassho
krissy
sat today


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Onka

Sorry Jundo but "the police deserve respect from the citizens too" is a step too far for me. I'll always be an Anarchist who follows the Buddha Dharma, not one without the other and not one undermining the other.
Gassho
Onka

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I consider that bordering on hate speech. You deserve respect and so do they. It is not acceptable here.

One may criticize a police officer who has broken the law or acted unethically, but not all police officers. One may criticize a citizen who has thrown a stone or acted unethically, but not all citizens.

If a police officer used excessive force, they should be prosecuted and criticized by people who cherish non-violence. If someone throws a stone at a police officer, they should be prosecuted and criticized by people who cherish non-violence.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Bordering hate speech?! Perhaps your encouragement of engaged Buddhism should include some political analysis Jundo, especially when it comes to Police and their role as enforcers of oppression. Out of your whole post I said that part of one sentence I thought was a step too far. One part of one sentence.
Unbelievable. Bordering hate speech. Really? Maybe take a deep breath Jundo as you encourage me to do, have a cup of tea, read up some political analysis around the role of police, maybe even look up the definition of hate speech and take another look at what I wrote. If you still think it's bordering hate speech I INSIST you report me to the police, feds, whoever else you think should be aware that disagreeing with your definitions is bordering hate speech.
Gassho
Onka
Sat today

I support the demonstrators and an outraged at any injustice they suffer. I am also outraged at violence. I am outraged at any police officer who uses excessive force. I am also outraged at anger at any police officer who is just trying to do his/her job. We should avoid to criticize a whole group of men and women for doing their TOUGH jobs just because there are some bad apples.

Maybe it was the time a police officer pulled me out of an overturned car, came when a robber broke in my house when my mother was home, brought her home when she later wandered out of the house in her senility. Maybe it is the police officer who I know in our community who tries to practice Buddhism and once had to kill a man to rescue a child being held hostage. They don't all stand on peoples' necks.

Sorry, you can criticize the institution if you wish, you can criticize individual officers who go too far, you can criticize the injustices of society as a whole. But do not criticize individual police officers ... some of whom probably rushed to your house when you were ill last week maybe.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Thank you for your teaching - I agree with your sentiments. There is so much anger everywhere. I have stopped reading the news. I do zazen because as soon as you have a preference, you have deviated from the way - and I can't help anyone when I'm full of anger!

Gassho
Van
Satlah_/\_

Sent from my HD1913 using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Onka

Sorry Jundo but "the police deserve respect from the citizens too" is a step too far for me. ..."
Gassho
Onka

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Respectfully,

We practice in a tradition in which one of the first ideas that should take root is that nothing is either/or. Everything is both -- always and simultaneously. I'm a Marxist, but I'm also an attorney and thus have been fortunate enough to study and immerse myself in the case law relating to the Constitution of the United States. And yes, I realize that you are not from the States, but Australia has a legal framework that is not dissimilar.

So, here's the thing that never gets acknowledged when everyone is screaming about their "rights," and it may come as a shock to you: your rights do not exist in a vacuum. With rights come "responsibilities." In the exercise of our rights, each of us has a responsibility and an obligation to go forth in society in a manner that is respectful of our neighbor's rights as well. That includes our personal neighbors, our business neighbors and even our institutional neighbors. Anything less is disrespectful from the start. Anything less is putting yourself before everything and everybody else. So, yes, the police do deserve our respect, just as we deserve respect from them. Much of the breakdown of basic civility in our society stems from the fact that people now view their "rights" as inviolate while simultaneously refusing to acknowledge any responsibilities towards the basic framework and structure of society, of which the police are a part.

Thank you, Jundo.

Gassho, Juki

sat today/lah

And on the off chance that some in the sangha may see my views on this matter as uninformed or unenlightened, there are two incidents in my life that brought me to the position i take and i will share them with you now.

When I was a very young man, between college and law school, i flew jets in the Air Force. I never wanted to join the military. I was ill suited to the lifestyle, but military service was a family tradition and the economy was awful at the time. Anyway, on the evening of Thursday, January 27, 1983, the Officer's Quarters in which I was living was raided by the military police and I was arrested for possession of marijuana. This was a serious matter in the military, unlike in the civilian world. I was court-martialed and my commanding officer asked the military prosecutor to seek the maximum penalty allowed under military law, which was six years at hard labor in the federal military prison in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. At the time of my arrest, i was placed in handcuffs with my arms behind my back and made to sit on the floor with my back turned to the officers searching my room. So, I was looking at a wall in my room, kind of like zazen, but not exactly a dharma gate of joy and repose. But I did what I was told to do. And at my court martial, the arresting officers testified that my behavior at the time of arrest was exemplary. I believe that testimony helped me, because I did not get any jail time or other harsh punishment, although I was kicked out of the service on a dishonorable basis.

Fast forward 30 years later and I am teaching yoga at a large studio in Tallahassee. One of my students is a nice woman who is married to a police officer. And although he did not practice yoga, i had the chance to meet him and speak with him on a few occasions and he came off as a decent and honorable person. Four years ago, a man intentionally set a house on fire in town and called 911 threatening to burn down other houses around it. So, in addition to the fire department, police were also dispatched to locate the arsonist. My student's husband was the first officer on the scene, and he was killed by the arsonist, who had set the fire and called it in as a means of ambushing the police. He did this because he had a lengthy criminal history and felt he had been treated disrespectfully by the justice system.

Our actions are the ground we stand on.

Gassho, Juki

Thank you for this thread Jundo. Thank you Juki for the perspective you brought to the discussion.

May we all live in peace.

gassho2
Tairin
Sat today and lah

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Juki

And on the off chance that some in the sangha may see my views on this matter as uninformed or unenlightened, there are two incidents in my life that brought me to the position i take and i will share them with you now.

When I was a very young man, between college and law school, i flew jets in the Air Force. I never wanted to join the military. I was ill suited to the lifestyle, but military service was a family tradition and the economy was awful at the time. Anyway, on the evening of Thursday, January 27, 1983, the Officer's Quarters in which I was living was raided by the military police and I was arrested for possession of marijuana. This was a serious matter in the military, unlike in the civilian world. I was court-martialed and my commanding officer asked the military prosecutor to seek the maximum penalty allowed under military law, which was six years at hard labor in the federal military prison in Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. At the time of my arrest, i was placed in handcuffs with my arms behind my back and made to sit on the floor with my back turned to the officers searching my room. So, I was looking at a wall in my room, kind of like zazen, but not exactly a dharma gate of joy and repose. But I did what I was told to do. And at my court martial, the arresting officers testified that my behavior at the time of arrest was exemplary. I believe that testimony helped me, because I did not get any jail time or other harsh punishment, although I was kicked out of the service on a dishonorable basis.

Fast forward 30 years later and I am teaching yoga at a large studio in Tallahassee. One of my students is a nice woman who is married to a police officer. And although he did not practice yoga, i had the chance to meet him and speak with him on a few occasions and he came off as a decent and honorable person. Four years ago, a man intentionally set a house on fire in town and called 911 threatening to burn down other houses around it. So, in addition to the fire department, police were also dispatched to locate the arsonist. My student's husband was the first officer on the scene, and he was killed by the arsonist, who had set the fire and called it in as a means of ambushing the police. He did this because he had a lengthy criminal history and felt he had been treated disrespectfully by the justice system.

Our actions are the ground we stand on.

Gassho, Juki

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Juki, thank you very much for sharing your stories. The touched me deeply.

One thing that I believe is that when we start down the road of Us vs Them, we have stepped off the Bodhisattva path.

And thank you for the original Post Jundo.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

Thank you for this Jundo. I saw your similar post on FB and had to stop reading all of the hurtful responses from some of the other members of that Soto group as it was becoming too upsetting to read all at once. I'll go back to that later as I can't hide from the dissenters forever.

I agree wholeheartedly that we have to respect everyone's life. When confronted with an individual or group of individuals that arouse a sense of hatred, fear, disgust or another strong negative emotion in me, I try very hard (though certainly not always successful) to take a mental step back and extend compassion towards them.

While another's actions or words may make me feel anger, etc. towards them in the moment, I acknowledge to myself that I have not yet walked in their shoes and cannot judge them as a complete human being based on a single moment in time. That would be too harsh on my part. I can (and will) still condemn the action, but I try to keep some space in my heart for the person.

On the subject of police, I have had encounters with a wide spectrum of officers. Many have been some of the kindest people I have met. And even the ones that I thought were complete jerks (even bordering on abusive) at the tine, well, I let my emotions run their natural course in my mind, but I also tried to reflect on what brought them to that point in their life.

When I see images of protesters screaming an individual police officers doing crowd control (there was one recent photo that has stuck in my mind), I feel compassion for the protesters who are justifiably angry towards the institution of law enforcement, but I also feel compassion towards the individual officers that are standing there, stone faced, taking the verbal abuse as an accepted part of their job. They both deserve my respect and compassion equally.

Each if us is a unique individual with a unique story. I just want to honor and respect that. I hope that I'm not oversimplifying this, but I'm having a hard time putting my feelings into words here.


Gassho,

Rob
SatToday



Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

This is a deeply sad and tense time to be living in the U.S.

Jundo, your words are wise. We need reminders that violence begets violence.

This country (maybe the world) desperately needs a compassionate and wise leader. Someone who can bring us together before the chasm deepens into a permanent schism. I pray for that. Thank you for providing a place of sanity and thoughtful reflections. I long for more of that.

Gassho
Anne
~st~

Thank you Jundo. [emoji120][emoji120][emoji120]

And thank you everyone for your thoughts and experiences. [emoji120][emoji120][emoji120]

Respect and love to all.

Ghasso
Bobby
SatToday


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Jundo "Sorry, you can criticize the institution if you wish, you can criticize individual officers who go too far, you can criticize the injustices of society as a whole. But do not criticize individual police officers ... some of whom probably rushed to your house when you were ill last week maybe."

Comrade Jundo
While I enjoy reading stories of heroes as much as the next person at no point have I criticised a single cop or even focused on a single cop despite the fact that this thread is in response to citizens protesting yet another killing of an unarmed civilian which has to date resulted in 3 cops being sacked and 1 being charged with murder and manslaughter.
Jundo, it is precisely the institution of Police that I am critical of. It's the near militarisation of Police that I am critical of. It is their role as enforcers of oppression that I'm critical of.
While rights vs responsibilities was brought up by someone else and I'd love to tear holes through their contribution I'm responding to you Roshi.
Onka Fun Fact: Most of the males in my family, both maternal and paternal sides were or are cops or in the military. The ones in.the military were mostlu military cops. I really am the black flag waving sheep of the family and have never hidden my politics or opinions from them.
So yes Jundo and others I do know individual cops. Even outside of my family I know and actually really like a couple of cops. As individuals out of uniform.
I actually think that a lot of people want to be cops in order to serve their community. The culture of policing is the problem and those with noble intent get eitherburnt out or swept up in the culture. Outside of my family, the cops I know joined because they believed they could change the police culture from within. One eventually became a riot cop but left with PTSD in disgust at the increasing militarisation of pòlicing. The other somehow (no-one knows how) managed to make it to Sergeant of an inner city station but refuses to wear a gun unless his bosses are around because he feels that carrying weapons is a disproportionate use of power. To be fair, I used to train with him and he doesn't need to carry weapons lol.
Take out the political analysis of the role of police around the world as enforcers of oppression Jundo and unfortunately you're still left with a police culture that is rooted in violence against unarmed citizens. This is not made up stuff. If you had access to all academic databases from around the world it would take many lifetimes to read all of the peer reviewed academic papers on the institution of policing and its role as enforcers of oppression or police cultures.
This is reality.
As for my interactions with police... I avoid them. I don't call the cops and don't believe that communities need cops in order to function. I'll even go so far as to say that if you think that communities can't function without cops then maybe it's time for a good hard look in the mirror and ask yourself what kind of community do you want to live in.
As a reminder Jundo at no point ever have I singled out one particular person who happens to make a living from oppressing others. I stated words to the effect that I disagreed with your statement that police deserve respect. Nothing more. Nothing less.
I honestly believe that you misinterpreted my response to your overall decent opening post. Furthermore I still believe you and I have more in common than not so would be happy to draw the line here and move forward focusing on things that unite communities rather than the things that can divide communities.

Finally I'm sure there's some keyboard warriors out there itching to add their 2c to an interaction between Jundo and myself. Don't bother because I have chosen to take the road of peace and won't be engaging further on this thread.

For Anarchy and Peace
Gassho
Onka
ST

Metta to all those suffering from the three poisons of greed, anger and delusion.
Metta to those who suffer from violence perpetrated upon them because of the color of their skin.
Metta to those who have lost any loved one to violence.
Metta to those who have had violence perpetrated upon themselves or their property because of the anger over racial inequality issues.
Metta to those suffering from the anger and divisive thinking of others because of their chosen profession.
Metta to all who suffer from the pain of the disharmony and divisive thinking.
Metta to those who outwardly demonstrate disrespect, violence, anger and/or divisive thinking toward other sentient beings, sometimes they suffer most of all.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jakuden

Metta to all those suffering from the three poisons of greed, anger and delusion.
Metta to those who suffer from violence perpetrated upon them because of the color of their skin.
Metta to those who have lost any loved one to violence.
Metta to those who have had violence perpetrated upon themselves or their property because of the anger over racial inequality issues.
Metta to those suffering from the anger and divisive thinking of others because of their chosen profession.
Metta to all who suffer from the pain of the disharmony and divisive thinking.
Metta to those who outwardly demonstrate disrespect, violence, anger and/or divisive thinking toward other sentient beings, sometimes they suffer most of all.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

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gassho2

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

Thank you jundo,
It's a difficult time, so much violence. It's not the way to bring hate and destruction as a reaction to the cruel murder (I would see it as murder)... although I can understand the emotional reactions of the protesters and it makes me so sad to see there's still racism out there. I hope the justice will do its job.
It's hard to practice metta and to visualize people like this police officer. Yet, he himself is a victim of his experiences, of his socialisation. I don't know if I would say so, if I'm in the place of George floyds family...
I will sit Zazen with the pain and the sadness of what has happened and what is still happening...
Gassho

Ben

Stlah



Enviado desde mi PLK-L01 mediante Tapatalk

A couple of days ago, after eating my breakfast, I watch a black man (George Floyd) being suffocated to death. This is the kind of thing that gets fed into your phone nowadays. I didn’t want to watch, it felt like voyeurism but to turn away felt like a betrayal. A week or so ago a young man is gunned down for the unfortunate crime of jogging. He happened to be black (Ahmad Arbery). Over two weeks ago police broke into Brenonna Taylor’s house and shot her dead. The only crime it seems she committed- she was a key worker- was the crime of being black. In her own home!
I watched a woman dog walker weaponise her white privilege against a black man for suggesting she put her dog on a leash. This looked like Alabama in the 1930’s not Central Park today.
My stomach is still growling, dyspeptically at the seared image of Mr. Floyd’s death at the callous hands of a uninterested police officer. This is institutionalised racism in its most naked sense. I know there are many good, decent police out there, but that’s beside the point, they are operating in a system that is weighted against black people. How many innocent black people get killed every year in unprovoked attacks by the police across the United States? The answer to this tells you all you need to know.
As a middle-aged white guy I have no idea of the privations, humiliations and grievances of being black. I wouldn’t presume. I can imagine, but that is to presume. I can listen, and before I pass comment, try to feel what it is like to walk a few miles in another person’s shoes, feel where the toes pinch that don’t in my own well-heeled and comfortable shoes.
Today, America is aflame- again! Hundreds of years of oppression come back to the surface that black people fear being gunned down in their own streets by the police; the very people tasked with protecting them. I sit, thousands of miles away in solidarity with those men and women protesting today.
“What is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that … the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality and humanity….A riot is the language of the unheard.” Not Malcom X but Martin Luther King.
I sometimes wonder whether our precious Buddhist tranquility is a cop out from actually making a commitment to listen, to feel someone else’s pain and maybe feel their rage too, because if this doesn’t make you feel rage then what’s wrong with you? I sometimes wonder whether our nice, neat, middle-class Buddhist equanimity is more an act of complicity with a system that privileges us to such a profound extent that we don’t even see it. Neither do I see it that I should be expressing pieties about peace, love and understanding because in many respects I’m part of the problem not the solution. What’s happening today on the streets of America is not an act of unprovoked violence by a group of “ THUGS” but a reaction to persistent, systemic oppression and violence- no doubt it will get out of hand; I gather someone has already been killed, and that has to be regretted but I can’t condemn it for the simple reason that I have no idea what it is like to be at the sharp end of this brutality. And so I’ll do what I think is the most skilful course of action for a white Buddhist in this matter: shut up and listen.
Wishing us all well,

Martyn
Sat today.


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Thank you Jundo and for the many measured and thoughtful responses here. It's at times like this, of chaos and suffering, that faith ( of any stripe) is challenged the most, and each of us must find our own way to meeting that challenge, relying on what, if anything, we've learned so far in this life and on this path. I can only remind myself of the vow I took at the very beginning of this path - which I repeat every day - putting aside my ego, my opinions which are worth nothing and my emotions which are useless, to save ALL sentient beings, although beings are numberless, and the suffering is unimaginable and endless. Anger of course, but if it doesn't serve to prompt a compassionate and useful response, it becomes a self centred, self destructive force. I know this because unfortunately anger is my greatest and most painful challenge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jakuden

Metta to all those suffering from the three poisons of greed, anger and delusion.
Metta to those who suffer from violence perpetrated upon them because of the color of their skin.
Metta to those who have lost any loved one to violence.
Metta to those who have had violence perpetrated upon themselves or their property because of the anger over racial inequality issues.
Metta to those suffering from the anger and divisive thinking of others because of their chosen profession.
Metta to all who suffer from the pain of the disharmony and divisive thinking.
Metta to those who outwardly demonstrate disrespect, violence, anger and/or divisive thinking toward other sentient beings, sometimes they suffer most of all.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

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Thank you for this Jakuden.
Gassho
Meitou
sattoday lah

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jakuden

Metta to all those suffering from the three poisons of greed, anger and delusion.
Metta to those who suffer from violence perpetrated upon them because of the color of their skin.
Metta to those who have lost any loved one to violence.
Metta to those who have had violence perpetrated upon themselves or their property because of the anger over racial inequality issues.
Metta to those suffering from the anger and divisive thinking of others because of their chosen profession.
Metta to all who suffer from the pain of the disharmony and divisive thinking.
Metta to those who outwardly demonstrate disrespect, violence, anger and/or divisive thinking toward other sentient beings, sometimes they suffer most of all.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

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Beautifully said Jakuden. I would love to borrow this for my own Metta practice right now. I hope that you don't mind. gassho2


Gassho,
Rob

SatToday

Quote:

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Originally Posted by martyrob

I sometimes wonder whether our precious Buddhist tranquility is a cop out from actually making a commitment to listen, to feel someone else’s pain and maybe feel their rage too, because if this doesn’t make you feel rage then what’s wrong with you?

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Oh, we should listen, deeply listen. More than that, what is vital is that we act, and really fix the system!

But what we should not do is feel rage (profound moral indignation if one wishes, yes ... burning rage, no), and we should not throw stones at police or burn buildings.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

A friend posted this today, and I found it inspirational ...

Quote:

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This officer got separated from other officers and this group of protestors created a human shield to protect him.

Be the change you want to see in the world.

https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...17&oe=5EF99A6E

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Gassho, J

STLah

So much to digest here. Thank you for sharing this in more detail, Jundo. As I mentioned in another thread, like many others, I'm struggling emotionally with all of this.

I have been dodging the news a bit to try and lessen the stress of it all, but even that doesn't help since it gets me thinking on how my privilege (being white in rural America) allows me to distance myself like that.... am I turning the other way? Should I be doing something more than I am? Only questions I can answer myself.

I agree with your sentiments, Jundo. I can understand the rage felt by the protesters --- to be honest, I feel it myself at times reflexively --- but violence is not an answer. It just spirals out of control, feeding on a cycle of anger and fear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jakuden

Metta to all those suffering from the three poisons of greed, anger and delusion.
Metta to those who suffer from violence perpetrated upon them because of the color of their skin.
Metta to those who have lost any loved one to violence.
Metta to those who have had violence perpetrated upon themselves or their property because of the anger over racial inequality issues.
Metta to those suffering from the anger and divisive thinking of others because of their chosen profession.
Metta to all who suffer from the pain of the disharmony and divisive thinking.
Metta to those who outwardly demonstrate disrespect, violence, anger and/or divisive thinking toward other sentient beings, sometimes they suffer most of all.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

---

Jakuden -- thank you for this [tranquillity]

Gassho

Ryan
Sat

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RobD

Beautifully said Jakuden. I would love to borrow this for my own Metta practice right now. I hope that you don't mind. gassho2


Gassho,
Rob

SatToday

---

Please do! I promise I will not file for copyright infringement gassho1

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

Thank you, Jundo, and everyone who has contributed to this thread. The pictures of the protestors protecting a police officer are moving. I hope this is not going too far off topic, but it occurred to me recently that stands in politics are based on a vision of good and evil. My professed belief is that the good/evil split is based attachment (greed), aversion (hatred) or indifference (apathy). When things are looked at in terms of good and evil, no compromise is possible. Yet some things do need to be changed, and apathy won't bring that about. I've been trying to see a way around the duality, and this thread reminds me that compassion, wisdom, and the precepts are that way.

Gassho,
Onkai

I’m seeing that Antifa and white supremacy groups have gotten involved in Minneapolis. This has essentially become a proxy war between left wing and right wing radicals with residents caught in the middle. Most of the arrests last night where people from out of state. White Supremacists are starting the fires, undercover cops seem to be smashing windows and stoking violence (there are videos, one in particular of a guy in a gas mask and an umbrella), it’s becoming hard to make heads or tails out of what’s going on.

Gassho,
Jason
Sat today


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Thank you Jundo for your teaching, and everyone else for participating in this discussion.

Thanks especially to Onka, who is reflecting many of my thoughts and the thoughts of my close friends, but which I don't have the courage or gumption (not sure which one) to say myself.

The same MLK quote Martyn shared has been bouncing around in my head for days, along with this one:

Quote:

---

"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."

---

I am afraid whether Buddhist practice pushes us into supporting "negative peace", especially in situations like these. It's especially hard because I am afraid these protests will worsen the pandemic and many will die as a direct consequence. It's a difficult time to be thinking about ethics.

Also, everyone keep in mind that these protests are no exception to the tendency of social and traditional media to hyperfocus on things that scare us. 99% of the protesters are likely peaceful, even in the cozy centrist "negative peace" sense.

Gassho
Kenny
Sat Today

I am very conflicted about what is going on, because the officer responsible was not arrested until things started burning, and if that is what it takes, what have we come to? Questions I can't answer.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jundo

But what we should not do is feel rage (profound moral indignation if one wishes, yes ... burning rage, no), and we should not throw stones at police or burn buildings.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

---

I disagree we can’t determine what we will feel, we feel what we feel. I feel all sorts of things, not all of them pretty. That’s where practice begins and how we deal with those feelings; what become of those feelings with regard to actions and what consequences flow from those feelings. There is a power or energy that comes from rage, a power to do good or ill, that is our choice:

“Rage is considered unenlightened. In our dharma communities, as in our day-to-day lives, we most often wear masks of politeness to conceal the rage we carry. Yet, to fully feel is to be fully human. If we can’t be honest about the human condition, then we can’t hear the cries of the earth or experience liberation. It’s true that rage, like fire—to which it is often compared—can be harmful, burning away everything in its path. But rage can also be life-giving, illuminating that which must be exposed before humanity can shift into a greater experience of interrelationship and love. I too feel rage, but rather than lash out from my pain and anguish, I’ve learned to use my rage to fuel a transformation toward awakening.”

Zenju Earthlyn Manuel, a black Zen teacher, who gives an interesting perspective on our rage, particularly from the point of view of a black practitioner.

https://www.lionsroar.com/awakening-fueled-by-rage/

As for throwing stones, back in my early twenties I studied to be a Barrister. I abandoned my studies and never qualified but one teaching that stuck with me was the absolute necessity to enforce the rule of law. Without the rule of law we no longer have a civilisation, just barbarism. This stuck in my craw a bit, as a young radical, because the Law back then seemed part of the problem. I don’t think I would have accepted that had my teacher not being black. Over the years I have reflected on this and know that my teacher was was spot on: the rule of law is the basis of civic society, everything else flows from that. In the case of George Floyd the breaking of the law was the police officer kneeling on his neck and the first resolution to this crisis is that he should meet the full force of the law, because without that, if the application of the law is seen to privilege certain groups in society, then trust in the law breaks down. In the UK, a convicted police officer is dealt with much more harshly for this reason.
Having said all that, how do you fight against injustice if you don’t, at sometimes break the law? Where would America be now without the Civil Rights movement of the 60’s? Can you imagine! Laws that prejudiced one group against another, that had no moral authority to be obayed? I don’t have the wit or knowledge to get into these issues of jurisprudence but they are entirely material to the matters at hand.
Riots are grim, they often effect social change but they are a brutal weapon. Women get raped, the innocent get injured or worse, livelihoods are trashed. In the early 80’s I lived in the London suburb of Tottenham. A riot exploded because of a police injustice leading to the death of a woman. During the riot a police officer, PC Blakelock was separated from his cohort and alone in that melee he was stabbed to death. I still remember his gentle face. He was a community officer but when the riot began he was dragooned into the police response. He was just a dad and husband trying his best and he was killed not because of who he was but because of what he represented, because of the uniform he wore. No one should applaud a riot, it is a failure and especially a failure of politicians to address matters before this happens. And I know I shouldn’t say this here because it kicks up a whole heap of dust, but a President who governs only by incendiary tweets has ceded all moral authority. This isn’t about partisanship but about basic human decency.

Martyn
Sat today.


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And this is where I part ways with Brad Warner. On Twitter, he said:

"I do not support the #laprotest in any way shape or form."

His white privilege has been increasingly apparent in the past few days. He's a smart guy about some things, but for others, he's like a child.

Gashho,

Kirk

sat

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Majere

I’m seeing that Antifa and white supremacy groups have gotten involved in Minneapolis. This has essentially become a proxy war between left wing and right wing radicals with residents caught in the middle. Most of the arrests last night where people from out of state. White Supremacists are starting the fires, undercover cops seem to be smashing windows and stoking violence (there are videos, one in particular of a guy in a gas mask and an umbrella), it’s becoming hard to make heads or tails out of what’s going on.

---

From what I'm reading, it looks like white nationalist groups are taking advantage of the situation to foment violence, with a serious goal of a second civil war. This is what Amerika has become. I cry for my native country.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kirkmc

From what I'm reading, it looks like white nationalist groups are taking advantage of the situation to foment violence, with a serious goal of a second civil war. This is what Amerika has become. I cry for my native country.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

---

l was just going to mention this. Maybe Antifa too on the other end, trying to stir up trouble.

Also, we cannot hold the many peaceful protesters responsible for the acts of a few hotheads, extremists, looters and the like. The media tends to focus on the exciting images of fire and broken windows, looting and the like. The handful of trouble makers get attention, and cause damage, far beyond their numbers. The white nationalists/antifa might be taking advantage of this too. The situation is still very unclear, but of course, the peaceful marchers don't get as much attention.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

This is what could happen if divisive thinking was abandoned.

https://nj1015.com/camden-police-mar...unity-opinion/

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I am grateful for this discussion and the many perspectives offered here. It has been a difficult week and I have shed many tears. I am repelled by the images and reports of violence. My first impulse is to wish only for peace, for peaceful protests. And as I whisper to myself that violence will never solve anything I also feel myself questioning if that is true. When I reflect I must acknowledge that part of my discomfort is due to me being uncomfortable with the rage and that I would rather not face it, not acknowledge the pain, grief and rage. I “know” (or think I do) about systemic racism, but I don’t want to KNOW it. I realize that I have the luxury of peaceful resistance because my skin color means my voice has a chance of being heard, that our justice system doesn’t automatically penalize me.

MLK said riots happen when voices go unheard. Trevor Noah recently said, when you see looting, try to remember that every day black bodies are being looted. I recently read a blog post by a man who lives not far from me. He’s a college professor. Recently while intending to buy a burrito before his next class, he was detained by a large number of police officers because he “fit the description” of someone who had reportedly tried to rob a white woman. Although his college ID was around his neck, and he had other ID and his car keys and car parked nearby, the officers would not take his word and that evidence as proof of his innocence. They would not hear him. They required only the word of that white woman to clear him. He was absolutely terrified and profoundly humiliated. He related that the only way he was able to stay calm was because an older black woman had stopped across the street to bear witness, to make sure he was ok. And when it was over and she walked him back to his car, she hugged him until he stopped shaking and crying.

I guess what I’m trying to get at in my ramblings is that, while I do not condone violence, I think I understand the rage and that violence might be all you have when the laws of society, the promise of society, don’t seem to include you and I think I have to turn to face it. I don’t want it to be too easy to ignore the why of it. I found this essay gave me much to consider. https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/05...-and-race-war/

I have no answers, just a lot to sit with.
Gassho,
Krista
st/lah

I would like to keep the focus on social justice AND peace & non-violence.

Apart from that, let us sit Zazen. Silently.

After Zazen, let us get up, make our society better, work to right some wrongs, but always employing peace & non-violence.

Rather than looking at the events themselves, let us sit silently, try to make the world better, advocate for peace. Beyond that, not much more to say.

We must somehow rise above this, not merely discuss it like everyone else today. Me too.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StoBird

I know everyone is getting sick of me on here but I have one more point and it may be an unpopular opinion: I wish protesters carried the flag right side up, opened with the pledge of allegiance and closed with singing the Star Spangled Banner. It is beyond audacious to assume people that treat other American’s as less of a vote (they *have* been slowly fighting to have major cities count for less of a vote with considerable sucess) and treat people as below them due to race and/or political views would claim the flag as their own. But they do and it sickens me because these symbols represent the principles and institutions of America (read: liberal ideals of justice, equality and freedom as well as democracy.) We should brandish and cherish them. It might have been more effective at bringing the reactionaries to our side if they saw the images of people marching with American flags next to BLM ones. I would have done it myself but I didn’t simply because it sadly would send the opposite message I’d want to convey.

---

As Jundo said, an upside-down flag is an international sign of distress. I think they are using the symbol correctly in this case.

As for the pledge of allegiance, it is not devoid of an oppressive history. And the Star Spangled Banner? Well, it glorifies bloody war, as many national anthems do, and also condones slavery:

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion,
A home and a country, should leave us no more?
Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps' pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave,
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

You want symbols? Look at the police dressed like Terminators, attacking non-violent protestors. Tell the dead black people about "justice, equality, and freedom." The people who wrap themselves in flags today are the same ones who have been lynching black people for centuries and claim to be the true patriots. They are the neo-Nazis who are armed to the teeth, with a desire to annihilate the entire black race:

Far-Right Extremists Are Hoping to Turn the George Floyd Protests Into a New Civil War

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/p...-new-civil-war

Just saying...

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

More to my comment above, I would like to refocus this discussion ...

One thing that is strange about a Zen Sangha is that we have to somehow leap beyond all the complex debate and "right and wrong" of this world. So, maybe some discussion of what's going on, and who is "right and wrong" would belong in an ordinary discussion on the internet, but maybe we have to look beyond a bit. So, I might suggest that we have to keep somehow focused on seeing something transcendent of all this.

It is tough for me too, I am not sure how to do that always. Maybe we have to place ourselves beyond the normal discussion. Am I wrong in that?

For me, I say that all people deserve a safe and healthy life AND peace and non-violence, and I don't say much more than that.

It's weird. One can very concerned about the oppressed and social injustice. One can be very concerned about non-violence. Yet. as Zen folks, our way is not to chat about it so much. Maybe more important is to just bow and do.

Gassho, J

STLah

I honestly don't know how to respond to what's happening. It's bad enough that we have a pandemic, that the United States has a white supremacist as president, but watching the past few days as peaceful protestors have been beaten and gassed is incredibly painful. Just two examples that I saw videos of this morning: one was a 9-year old girl in Seattle who got maced, another was an elderly man with a cane, who looked like he was waiting for a bus, got pushed to the ground by police. The levels of violence from the police, condoned by the president, are inexcusable. It's beyond a level of non-violent insurrection. There are only so many times people can be beaten.

At the same time, I can't help but think that all this is the result of delusion, but you can't cut through the pain and anger to get to that point because so many black people have suffered for so long. And because the police in the US have gotten so incredibly violent that they do this with impunity; just look at how many videos there are now of police beating and killing black people.

Yet in some cities, the mayors and the chiefs of police have taken a different tack, and have joined the demonstrators, and there is no violence, only a shared sense of purpose.

If you haven't yet heard this speech, this man is a true bodhisattva (though I think his message would be a bit better without the Kill Your Masters on his t-shirt.)

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/m...rence-1007816/

Just an aside: many people have pointed out many times just how white zen is - at least in the US - and I really wonder what we're doing wrong.

Gassho,

Kirk

Sat

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kirkmc

I honestly don't know how to respond to what's happening. It's bad enough that we have a pandemic, that the United States has a white supremacist as president, but watching the past few days as peaceful protestors have been beaten and gassed is incredibly painful. Just two examples that I saw videos of this morning: one was a 9-year old girl in Seattle who got maced, another was an elderly man with a cane, who looked like he was waiting for a bus, got pushed to the ground by police. The levels of violence from the police, condoned by the president, are inexcusable. It's beyond a level of non-violent insurrection. There are only so many times people can be beaten.

At the same time, I can't help but think that all this is the result of delusion, but you can't cut through the pain and anger to get to that point because so many black people have suffered for so long. And because the police in the US have gotten so incredibly violent that they do this with impunity; just look at how many videos there are now of police beating and killing black people.

Yet in some cities, the mayors and the chiefs of police have taken a different tack, and have joined the demonstrators, and there is no violence, only a shared sense of purpose.

If you haven't yet heard this speech, this man is a true bodhisattva (though I think his message would be a bit better without the Kill Your Masters on his t-shirt.)

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/m...rence-1007816/

Just an aside: many people have pointed out many times just how white zen is - at least in the US - and I really wonder what we're doing wrong.

Gassho,

Kirk

Sat

---

I think that we need to keep the discussion simpler. All pain, violence, abuse is bad whoever is doing so. Everyone deserves to live in safety and peace, in a safe neighborhood and without being scared.

I think that Zen folks can only offer that, trying to keep everyone's eyes on higher ends.

Gassho, J

STLah

https://mobile.twitter.com/tkerssen/...653385225?s=20

National guard firing on people on their porches on their own property. Clearly a violation of constitutional rights.

Gassho, Jason
Sat today


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They seem to have the autopsy results and say it's not death caused by the officer.. but health issues of George Floyd ... I feel it's like a bad joke

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2...mbined-health/

Gassho
Ben

Slah

Enviado desde mi PLK-L01 mediante Tapatalk

Constitutional rights should be protected, excessive force should not be used by officials, those who do violence should be prosecuted. Good police officers should not be considered the same as those who do wrong. All victims of violence are recalled in our hearts. Peaceful protests should be honored, trouble makers should be condemned.

The system needs to be fixed, social injustices need to be remedied, violence in anger should be avoided.

Now, let us sit.

Gassho, J

STLah

Hi Rev. Jundo.

Thank you for your calming words. I have been listenning to all of your beginers practice talks since i joined the sangha a couple of months ago, (just studying in the background gassho1)

I needed some reminders in my practice, and they really helped. Very specifically i liked your explanation around accepting situations as they are, whilst at the same time doing all we can to improve the situations we are subject to. These views are not in conflict from my understanding, and indeed they seem to me to be the essence of the middle way, being neither driven by resistance or acceptance.

So, today i fully support your directive that, " Constitutional right should be protected, excessive force should not be used by officials, those who do violence should be prosecuted. Good police officers should not be considered the same as those who do wrong. All victims of violence are recalled in our hearts. Peaceful protests should be honored, trouble makers should be condemned.

The system needs to be fixed, social injustices need to be remedied, violence in anger should be avoided.

Now, let us sit.

Metta, b, (sorry, i have edited this post to say that i have sat today.)

Thank you all for this thread.

gassho1

Gassho

That's powerful. Thank you Jundo and all contributing to this thread gassho2

Gassho
Washin
st-lah

Thank you for this thread and the sharing of everyone's thoughts.

I fear that until we as a whole can realize that we are all the same, interconnected, and all want and need basic human rights the outrage will continue.

I hope that we can show, teach, and reinforce the fact that we are all the same and all interconnected so that we can move beyond the us vs them mentality.

Gassho

Colby

Sat today

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It's always nice when my daily reading dovetails with one of your teachings, Jundo. Today, this:

"Buddhism is not about getting enlightened -- it's about being kind. If I have a chance at the time of my death to take an accounting of what I've done, I won't be asking how enlightened I've become, I'll be asking how much I've shown kindness to others.

This is how the Buddha began, who set out walking the earth not in quest of enlightenment but in search of a means to end the suffering he saw all about him. If I ever hope to realize a generous, loving, merciful, nonviolent human society, I too must carry on the daily practice of generosity, love, mercy and nonviolence that the Buddha set in motion. This is the practical and ordinary work of the bodhisattva."

Lin Jensen, from "Together Under One Roof, Making a Home of the Buddha's Household

Gassho,
Juki

sat today/lah

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jundo

Constitutional rights should be protected, excessive force should not be used by officials, those who do violence should be prosecuted. Good police officers should not be considered the same as those who do wrong. All victims of violence are recalled in our hearts. Peaceful protests should be honored, trouble makers should be condemned.

The system needs to be fixed, social injustices need to be remedied, violence in anger should be avoided.

Now, let us sit.

Gassho, J

STLah

---

gassho2
Krista
st/lah

gassho2

Thanks to all for the insights.

Doshin
St

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Juki

"Buddhism is not about getting enlightened -- it's about being kind. If I have a chance at the time of my death to take an accounting of what I've done, I won't be asking how enlightened I've become, I'll be asking how much I've shown kindness to others.

---

Oh, sorry, I did not know that enlightenment and kindness were mutually exclusive! :) Maybe better said that kindness is a facet of the same one jewel. :buddha:

Gassho, J

STLah

Good point, Jundo

Gassho
Sat today, lah

I have no Buddhist wisdom to offer. Only my experience with police. My father was the director of a police training school academy during the 1960s and 1970s in a US city that had major social and racial upheaval. We had riots, burning, looting, the whole thing. I knew many of his fellow police officers and back then most of them were just regular, normal guys who happened to be policemen. I never heard any race hatred from them. This was a time and place when if you were racist you didn't hide it. You let it be known loud and proud. This, by the way was not the South.

We would have lively discussions on subjects like harassment of hippies, racial profiling, illegal search and seizure, violent subduing of unruly arrestees, clubbing protestors, etc. He was strictly against all of this. As far as he was concerned the police had to obey the law too. Bottom line in regard to today; You can arrest a hostile suspect without them dying. Later when the old guard began to fade away they were replaced by a younger breed who, let's just say, look and act more like these cops under criticism today. I had a couple of frightening encounters with wild-eyed, hostile, aggressive cops in the 1980s myself. I don't know how or why this change in police culture happened.

I agree that not all police are bad and they do have a hard and dangerous job. I am not anti-police. I knew policemen who did massive amounts of charity work with sick children, animal rescue and adoption, etc. But are the good cops complicit in all this? The cop in Minneapolis had 18 complaints filed against him. Didn't one supervisor, a fellow officer or somebody in authority say; we have to do something about this guy? Is there a code of silence? Do they just look the other way?

The system is stacked against minorities. Statistics repeatedly prove this. Too many police departments are just rotten from top to bottom. This is why people don't trust or respect them. My grandfather used to say that one of the reasons the Mafia got entrenched in his neighborhood was because the police were so crooked and brutal to the immigrants that when they were wronged they had to turn to the Mafia for justice. Is that where we're headed?

Gassho
STlah
James

Police should be good and honest. I think most still are, some are not. They should treat citizens with respect and gentle words as much as possible, citizens should treat police with respect and gentle words as much as possible. Excess force should not be used, bad apples should be removed from the force. Those who use excess force should be prosecuted. The system should not be stacked, we need to fix it. Nobody should be crooked and brutal.

Now that said ...

Let us sit.

After sitting, we can get up and start to fix things if we can.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Someone asked me my view whether violence is ever justified in Buddhism.

Various Buddhists will disagree, but I believe that it is sometimes justified if necessary to save life. That may include, for example, use of reasonable deadly force (emphasis on reasonable) as my friend, a police officer, needed to use once to rescue a child being held hostage, or the use of force if one has an intruder in one's home. Even so, we should avoid to act in anger even then, and we should condemn excess force by police or anyone. I think that some groups, such as the Rohingya in Burma, might be justified in some violence if necessary to defend their villages and members from being burned or killed in a pogrom, ethnic cleansing etc.

I think there has to be some clear connection, however, and no reasonable alternative. Thus, while some might argue that violence in the streets to overturn an unjust system is necessary to "save lives" because members of a minority group are dying of poverty in a situation that is like "ethnic cleansing," burning a Starbucks or throwing rocks at police does not seem directly connected to the goal, and it seems counter-productive and motivated by anger. There are reasonable alternatives, and peaceful action should be maintained unless unavoidable. Violence should only be a last resort.

This is just my view, I am not the last word on this for other Buddhists.

Gassho, J

STLah

Another story I found inspiring, and I hope others will too ...

While tensions between police and protesters boiled over in some cities, other officers joined the movement

Quote:

---

While some police departments have been accused of being heavy handed in their attempts to control protests that turned violent over the weekend, other departments have tried to reach out to protesters to share their grief and help convey their message of peace.

---

https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/asse...xlarge-169.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZTe0AZW...g&name=900x900

https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/asse...xlarge-169.jpg

More here ...

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/01/u...rnd/index.html

Gassho, J

STLah

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jundo

Another story I found inspiring, and I hope others will too ...

While tensions between police and protesters boiled over in some cities, other officers joined the movement



https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/asse...xlarge-169.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZTe0AZW...g&name=900x900

https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/asse...xlarge-169.jpg

More here ...

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/01/u...rnd/index.html

Gassho, J

STLah

---

my neighborhood was smashed overnight. i'm not exaggerating. not going to explain what i mean either. i am trying hard not to cry because i don't have time to right now.

but these photos -- this is like my city also.

thank you for these photos. this is the good in my city as well.

gassho, meian st briefly

Okay ..... i'm going to wade into this a bit and if it gets pulled, so be it.

Sorry – it's long. No way around it (for me). And no offense intended …..

First – I've studied anarchism a bit, and I agree (in theory) with some of its principles. In an ideal society, I think it has a chance of working. But I won't address everything I think about this ideology here because this is not a political forum, and I can't do so without some really salty language at this point. I intend no offense to anyone, but going from 3 months of quarantine to my city being razed and destroyed within 2 days is more than I can handle right now.

My city is highly diverse, and somewhat polarized. My city is also a Sanctuary City, which I love about it -- we are a sanctuary for immigrants and refugees, which I have advocated to preserve because I strongly believe in this. I don't believe in borders and boundaries that separate people, I don't believe in the concept of "illegal aliens" or "illegal immigrants." We live on one planet, we are one human race. That's my opinion and one of my core beliefs.

I say that as I hear the helicopters coming in again, and as I've been witnessing people fighting over who is to blame for this whole mess, calling other human beings "animals" "thugs" and much worse. Telling me and others that we need to get guns and .... you can fill in the blanks.

That is not my way, and never has been. Yes, I am very scared. Our neighborhoods have been destroyed. Businesses burned to the ground, looted. It is senseless to me. This has nothing to do with Floyd, nothing to do with Black Lives Matter. Why destroy your own community? People, families, elderly, children? Calling the military in? That makes NO sense. There is something else at work here, it's not about the protesters. They are addressing the systemic and institutionalized racism throughout the US and throughout our nation's history, and rightfully so. Attacking the police won't solve that, but the protesters themselves weren't doing that. (Not ours, anyway – our police are rather chill for all they got hit with.) Our police commissioner (an African American woman) addressed this, saying that the violence is hindering the work being done inside the system to improve community relations. If people are destroying the progress being made, and alienating their allies in the community -- what good does that do? It only feeds the racism and fuels the calls for a violent crackdown that we really don't want.

The calls for martial law, military occupation, all-out war in the streets are getting louder -- and we don't want that, at all. (People don't understand what they're asking for.) I don't want that for my kids. We respect the police. For the most part, our cops are okay, and yes, there is bad in every bunch. And yes I am speaking from a position of white privilege, and yes I try to use my white privilege to combat racism, bigotry, and prejudice in all of its forms, and to recognize when I am benefiting from systems built on these injustices. I have a long way to go, but I keep trying. Part of our family is Arab Muslim, our neighbors are Asian Muslim, and most of my medical team is Asian and African American. This violence is hurting all of us.

Sorry, I am not an anarchist. I respect those who are -- but right now, I am in deep fear for my family's safety, and have no good options. I don't want retaliation -- I want peace, mutual understanding, open communication, and healing. I want to know what the rioters want, what is making them do this. Can't stop the violence without understanding what their suffering is, why they are so angry -- or apathetic, or whatever they are. Happy, well-adjusted people don't throw Molotov cocktails at businesses and launch bricks at cops. Or maybe it's just me, but violence never crosses my mind.

I'm in solidarity with the protesters, AND I support the efforts of our law enforcement trying to protect our communities in this chaos and destruction.

Trying to push away the gnawing fear in my stomach of where we seem to be headed, while also weighing the very real worry of my family's safety and having no good or clear answers. I was worried before about the increasing crime and violence in my neighborhood. That was before the looting and the fire-bombing happened. This tells me these people (whoever they are) have no limits.

Shikantaza, nothing light or fluffy here ..... breathing and sitting in the middle of our undeclared war zone. I said what I said.

Gassho, meian st

Hi Meian,

When you come to our place, please try to put all the chaos outside down for a time. Do your best not to get tangled in so many ideas and emotions. Few words. Even silence sometimes, and a simple Gassho.

That does not mean that we don't care. Far from it! It means we care, and wish to see justice and peace, but the first step is to bring quiet to our own mind and peace to the heart. We "just witness" what is happening. I posted this earlier in the discussion, but this "bearing witness" has been taught by the great Bernie Glassman Roshi and others this way:

"In times of doubt, disbelief, and insecurity, the practice of bearing witness can be an important aspect of our awareness and presence.

Bearing witness can be defined as acknowledging that something exists or is true. From a Buddhist perspective ... to bear witness is to embrace both the joy and the suffering we encounter. Rather than simply observing the situation, we become the situation. We become intimate with whatever it is ... When we analyze and judge a situation, we normally come to it with all of our ideas and habitual beliefs. We are only able to see it through the lens of our conditioned thinking. But when we shift to the practice of bearing witness, we suspend our analytical thinking and move to a place of open awareness. This allows the witnessing presence to become one with whatever situation we encounter.

To bear witness, we need to set aside the focus on our own reactions and enter a place of stillness and receptivity. Bearing witness in the world, we are cultivating the same ground of open heart and mind that we practice in our [Zazen]" (Jules Shuzen Harris).

Why is this our way?

Perhaps, when the world is screaming, we answer with quiet. When the streets are burning, we respond with cooling waters. When there is hate, we bring caring and love. Like that.

So, let's us be simple. We want justice and we want peace.

Let us sit.

Gassho, J

STLah

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Meian

Okay ..... i'm going to wade into this a bit and if it gets pulled, so be it.

Sorry – it's long. No way around it (for me). And no offense intended …..

First – I've studied anarchism a bit, and I agree (in theory) with some of its principles. In an ideal society, I think it has a chance of working. But I won't address everything I think about this ideology here because this is not a political forum, and I can't do so without some really salty language at this point. I intend no offense to anyone, but going from 3 months of quarantine to my city being razed and destroyed within 2 days is more than I can handle right now.

My city is highly diverse, and somewhat polarized. My city is also a Sanctuary City, which I love about it -- we are a sanctuary for immigrants and refugees, which I have advocated to preserve because I strongly believe in this. I don't believe in borders and boundaries that separate people, I don't believe in the concept of "illegal aliens" or "illegal immigrants." We live on one planet, we are one human race. That's my opinion and one of my core beliefs.

I say that as I hear the helicopters coming in again, and as I've been witnessing people fighting over who is to blame for this whole mess, calling other human beings "animals" "thugs" and much worse. Telling me and others that we need to get guns and .... you can fill in the blanks.

That is not my way, and never has been. Yes, I am very scared. Our neighborhoods have been destroyed. Businesses burned to the ground, looted. It is senseless to me. This has nothing to do with Floyd, nothing to do with Black Lives Matter. Why destroy your own community? People, families, elderly, children? Calling the military in? That makes NO sense. There is something else at work here, it's not about the protesters. They are addressing the systemic and institutionalized racism throughout the US and throughout our nation's history, and rightfully so. Attacking the police won't solve that, but the protesters themselves weren't doing that. (Not ours, anyway – our police are rather chill for all they got hit with.) Our police commissioner (an African American woman) addressed this, saying that the violence is hindering the work being done inside the system to improve community relations. If people are destroying the progress being made, and alienating their allies in the community -- what good does that do? It only feeds the racism and fuels the calls for a violent crackdown that we really don't want.

The calls for martial law, military occupation, all-out war in the streets are getting louder -- and we don't want that, at all. (People don't understand what they're asking for.) I don't want that for my kids. We respect the police. For the most part, our cops are okay, and yes, there is bad in every bunch. And yes I am speaking from a position of white privilege, and yes I try to use my white privilege to combat racism, bigotry, and prejudice in all of its forms, and to recognize when I am benefiting from systems built on these injustices. I have a long way to go, but I keep trying. Part of our family is Arab Muslim, our neighbors are Asian Muslim, and most of my medical team is Asian and African American. This violence is hurting all of us.

Sorry, I am not an anarchist. I respect those who are -- but right now, I am in deep fear for my family's safety, and have no good options. I don't want retaliation -- I want peace, mutual understanding, open communication, and healing. I want to know what the rioters want, what is making them do this. Can't stop the violence without understanding what their suffering is, why they are so angry -- or apathetic, or whatever they are. Happy, well-adjusted people don't throw Molotov cocktails at businesses and launch bricks at cops. Or maybe it's just me, but violence never crosses my mind.

I'm in solidarity with the protesters, AND I support the efforts of our law enforcement trying to protect our communities in this chaos and destruction.

Trying to push away the gnawing fear in my stomach of where we seem to be headed, while also weighing the very real worry of my family's safety and having no good or clear answers. I was worried before about the increasing crime and violence in my neighborhood. That was before the looting and the fire-bombing happened. This tells me these people (whoever they are) have no limits.

Shikantaza, nothing light or fluffy here ..... breathing and sitting in the middle of our undeclared war zone. I said what I said.

Gassho, meian st

---

Meian, I am sorry you are living with this. Metta to you, your neighbors, your city, and all who are living with this violence. I hope peace will soon be restored so real work for justice can continue.
Gassho,
Krista
st/lah

We can have acceptance and work for change (non-acceptance) at the same time.

We can have stillness inside, yet get up and get moving actively for change at the same time.

Gassho, J

STLah

I woke today with the news that my hometown which is right next door to where I live now had uniformed policemen joining in solidarity with the protesters. This was greeted by people smashing police cars and setting them on fire. One step up, one step back. I saw the videos of this taking place on the very same streets that were burned and looted 52 years ago. The same streets where my father as a policeman had cinder blocks aimed for his head by arsonists on rooftops while he tried to save local merchants from having their businesses burned. The merchants moved out. Storefronts were left abandoned. Businesses and factories moved away. Residents left for the suburbs and homes were divided into apartments owned by out of town landlords who couldn't care less about anything but getting their money. Radical race baiters of all stripes riled people up with hate and fear. Border lines were drawn. My high school, once a jewel of education became a violent, dangerous nuthouse. The city has never really recovered.

This is the result of violence. This is the result of people refusing to believe that there are problems in the first place.

Gassho
STlah
James

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jundo

We can have acceptance and work for change (non-acceptance) at the same time.

We can have stillness inside, yet get up and get moving actively for change at the same time.

Gassho, J

STLah

---

Yes. Your teaching the last 5 years have helped me better understand.

Thank you

Doshin
Still learning, still sitting

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jundo

... maybe some discussion of what's going on, and who is "right and wrong" would belong in an ordinary discussion on the internet, but maybe we have to look beyond a bit. So, I might suggest that we have to keep somehow focused on seeing something transcendent of all this.

---

Amen (and emphasis mine)

gassho2
Kevin
ST

i understand, Jundo. Thank you.

gassho,
meian sat today.

I said too much for here so deleted it.

Sitting is best.

Be Safe, Be Well

Doshin
St

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jundo

We can have acceptance and work for change (non-acceptance) at the same time.

We can have stillness inside, yet get up and get moving actively for change at the same time.

Gassho, J

STLah

---

Gassho
Onka
ST

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This struck me today quite strongly in light of current events that we have been experiencing

Sat Today

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk

Edited to fix imghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...e3f04110b8.jpg

If folk want to take some positive practical action, or be better informed on some of the core issues at the heart of this crisis, a couple of people I follow on social media have published some useful links.

https://linktr.ee/curiouswithjvn
Jonathan Van Ness

https://angelatcarr.wordpress.com/20...o-as-a-writer/

Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday lah

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Meitou

If folk want to take some positive practical action, or be better informed on some of the core issues at the heart of this crisis, a couple of people I follow on social media have published some useful links.

https://linktr.ee/curiouswithjvn
Jonathan Van Ness

https://angelatcarr.wordpress.com/20...o-as-a-writer/

Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday lah

---

Brilliant Meitou!
Just what I need.

Gassho
Anne

~lahst~

A nice interview with an historian about why and how peaceful civil disobedience is often much more effective than violence ...

Quote:

---

Nonviolent resistance proves potent weapon

When Erica Chenoweth started her predoctoral fellowship at the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs in 2006, she believed in the strategic logic of armed resistance. She had studied terrorism, civil war, and major revolutions — Russian, French, Algerian, and American — and suspected that only violent force had achieved major social and political change. But then a workshop led her to consider proving that violent resistance was more successful than the nonviolent kind. Since the question had never been addressed systematically, she and colleague Maria J. Stephan began a research project.

For the next two years, Chenoweth and Stephan collected data on all violent and nonviolent campaigns from 1900 to 2006 that resulted in the overthrow of a government or in territorial liberation. They created a data set of 323 mass actions. Chenoweth analyzed nearly 160 variables related to success criteria, participant categories, state capacity, and more. The results turned her earlier paradigm on its head — in the aggregate, nonviolent civil resistance was far more effective in producing change.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/sto...%20behind%20it.

---

Gassho, J

STLah

Thank you for this Jundo. This really helped me articulate the value of non violence in this situation to many that believed the violence had justification.

Gassho

Colby

Sat today



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At first I thought it is not a Buddhist teaching, but she is speaking of the reasons for protest with non-violence.

Yes, there is language and there is anger (I would like to think it "righteous indignation" as the is opposed to the violence).

https://youtu.be/MYbXlUx97NI

Gassho, J

STLah

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jundo

A nice interview with an historian about why and how peaceful civil disobedience is often much more effective than violence

---

The thing is, the protesters aren't violent, for the most part. There are agitators, and, as I'm sure everyone has seen, plenty of police attacking people who are doing nothing at all.

The thing about civil disobedience is that it works when it has an effect on the economy (cf Rosa Parks; Apartheid; etc.). Currently, with 40 million unemployed, black people can't even go on a mass strike, and with so many businesses closed, their protests won't have any effect on the economy.

Actually, what is working now is the fact - sadly - that the authorities are perpetrating violence on essentially peaceful demonstrators. I don't think you can call actual demonstrations "civil disobedience" but they are having a very strong effect. The fact that everything is filmed means that it's easy to show all the police brutality, which is enhancing public support of the movement.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

Thanks for saying something Jundo. I wish that more Buddhist communities would speak out than those that already have.

Gassho,
Mac

We have witnessed so much tragedy these last few days. It is heartbreaking in so many ways. Thank you Jundo for your words and making this thread available for us to talk. Thank you to EVERYONE who has participated. We need more dialog like this. We can’t individually solve the problem of systemic racism, but we can certainly do something together that will make a difference. Anger is a tricky emotion. It can make us real dumb, but it can also energize us to drive change in a positive way. Our practice helps us with this. If you are white, please please [emoji1374] find a black leader that you trust. Listen to and help this person. Educate yourself. Donate your money. Sign petitions. Protest peacefully. There is so much we can do. Don’t feel like you have to do it all, but do something. It makes you feel better. I promise [emoji4] One of the gifts of right action is the hope of a better future. Don’t give others (not two) the power to take that away.

ST

Thank you, Troy. My sentiments exactly.

Gassho
Krissy
Sat


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While reading the first few entries of this post I saw a bold example of Us vs Them.
That is the problem.

Benidaka
I sat today.

I agree, Jundo, 100%.
Equality and Justice for all.

Gassho,
Benidaka
I sat today.

An inspiring way to meet anger with peace ...

Quote:

---

A peaceful protest in a small Montana resort town turned ugly Wednesday night when a visibly angry man confronted demonstrators, yelling at them while standing only inches away from their faces. In a video shared on social media, a man is seen yelling profanities at a group of demonstrators supporting Black Lives Matter ... the group starts chanting "peaceful!" to drown out his yelling.

In a powerful image shared by Samantha Francine, who is one of the protesters, Snowden, a tall white man, is seen looking down on a much smaller Francine while she looks up into his eyes, holding a poster that reads "Say Their Names." Francine, who is biracial, told CNN that in that heated moment with Snowden standing inches away from her face, she felt no fear. ... The 27-year-old protester said the words of her white father, who died 16 years ago, ran through her head: "No matter who the threat is, no matter what the threat is, you look them in the eye so that they know you're human."

https://us.cnn.com/2020/06/08/us/gir...rnd/index.html

---

https://youtu.be/DhRihk3N6ZQ


Gassho, J

STLah

Thank you Jundo and everyone else for your thoughtful comments and insight. I think it's very important we have these discussions.

I've been pondering the events and currently think that while I probably wouldn't protest violently and I'm aware that only a tiny minority have, I can't condemn or judge people for the way they react to centuries of institutional injustice.

I've been absolutely shocked by the way some police forces have reacted, it's been unbelievably disproportionate and shows a shocking lack of training or else terribly misguided tactics - I served in Northern Ireland in the late 90s/early 2000s and was involved with many violent riots. We would never have dreamed of behaving like that, mostly because we'd have been arrested ourselves. And while historically the British Army has perpetrated many wrongs in Northern Ireland which I won't try to excuse, they had at least learned how counter-productive violent tactics are.

With regards to how we react as Buddhists, it seems sanghas (and all individuals) need to proactively think about how we engage with racial bias and take active steps to overcome it and be more encouraging and supportive to people of colour. With this I think we need to do more than just sit in silence because it seems in this case sitting in silence is itself a political act.

I think the fact we're having this candid conversation is a great start and far better than many others (yeah, I'm looking at you Brad Warner), but there's plenty of work to be done. This isn't to criticise anyone here and is much directed at me as anyone else.

Gassho,

Heiso

StLah

I find I can’t feel I’m doing good and avoiding harm if I’m not doing something about racism. The best I can do now is work on myself. The Village Zendo has a list of resources on its website, and two books listed there are especially helpful to me in this regard:
My Grandmother’s Hands, On the trauma of racism, its effects on Black bodies, White bodies, and Police bodies, and how to heal.

https://smile.amazon.com/My-Grandmot...1218573&sr=8-1

and

A Race is a Nice Thing to Have, designed to help White people fully recognize and accept their racial identity, assume the proper responsibility for ending racism, and develop an understanding of how racism impacts their own racial group
.
https://titles.cognella.com/a-race-i...-9781516583263

or on Amazon:

https://smile.amazon.com/Race-Nice-T...s%2C483&sr=8-1

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/lah

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Onkai

I find I can’t feel I’m doing good and avoiding harm if I’m not doing something about racism. The best I can do now is work on myself.

---

Thank you Onkai.

gassho2
Tairin
Sat today and lah

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Onkai

I find I can’t feel I’m doing good and avoiding harm if I’m not doing something about racism. The best I can do now is work on myself. The Village Zendo has a list of resources on its website, and two books listed there are especially helpful to me in this regard:
My Grandmother’s Hands, On the trauma of racism, its effects on Black bodies, White bodies, and Police bodies, and how to heal.

https://smile.amazon.com/My-Grandmot...1218573&sr=8-1

and

A Race is a Nice Thing to Have, designed to help White people fully recognize and accept their racial identity, assume the proper responsibility for ending racism, and develop an understanding of how racism impacts their own racial group
.
https://titles.cognella.com/a-race-i...-9781516583263

or on Amazon:

https://smile.amazon.com/Race-Nice-T...s%2C483&sr=8-1

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/lah

---

Thank you for this Onkai
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday lah

So many insightful posts here!
I understand Onka's view and don't think she meant hate speach : it's has to do with the system and the institution of police. I was born in communist Poland ( Onka - your use of the word Comrade makes me boil inside :D joking) and remember the mistrust and rage towards the police brutality who tortured many people (killing freedom fighting priest J. Popiełuszko), my father had to hide many times from them. Now Poland has democracy and the police has changed too. I witnessed corruption in Indian police, and never really respected this institution until I moved to UK. Some of you may have different stories but I saw the human in police for the first time in UK and I genuinely belive that here they work to protect the people and to be of benefit to people. I can't imagine any other place where police would call a drunk troublemaker "Sir", spoke to him politely and offered him a lift home. When it comes to US - there are good police officers but the system has to change, because as it is now it doesn't benefit the officers (PTSD, etc) neither the society. And hopefully it will - every crisis is a catalyst for change. Let's pray it will be more peaceful and for the better of American people.
Gassho
Sat
Sorry for going over 3 sentences.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ania

So many insightful posts here!
I understand Onkai's view and don't think she meant hate speach : it's has to do with the system and the institution of police. I was born in communist Poland ( Onkai - your use of the word Comrade makes me boil inside :D joking) and remember the mistrust and rage towards the police brutality who tortured many people (killing freedom fighting priest J. Popiełuszko), my father had to hide many times from them. Now Poland has democracy and the police has changed too. I witnessed corruption in Indian police, and never really respected this institution until I moved to UK. Some of you may have different stories but I saw the human in police for the first time in UK and I genuinely belive that here they work to protect the people and to be of benefit to people. I can't imagine any other place where police would call a drunk troublemaker "Sir", spoke to him politely and offered him a lift home. When it comes to US - there are good police officers but the system has to change, because as it is now it doesn't benefit the officers (PTSD, etc) neither the society. And hopefully it will - every crisis is a catalyst for change. Let's pray it will be more peaceful and for the better of American people.
Gassho
Sat

---

Hi Ania, just wondering if you have confused Onkai with Onka. You would not be the first, though [emoji854]

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jakuden

Hi Ania, just wondering if you have confused Onkai with Onka. You would not be the first, though [emoji854]

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

---

My applogies to both

gassho2

Hi all

Wow, took some time to read all the posts, metta to all who have suffered because of these events. It's certainly a difficult topic, and probably emblematic of many of the current and likely future struggles for our societies. We are beings of emotion and action and social media seems to work on the most polarising parts of our brain!

When I took the vow, to save all sentient beings, there was no caveat, no 'but only if that sentient being is nice to me'. Of course, if someone breaks into my house and kills one of my kids, I might want to kill that person - at least I acknowledge I would feel that way. But maybe I would want to seek the path of healing instead. Maybe both views would play tug-of-war with me, but one thing I do know - when I sit, I sit as a Buddha, I sit as the whole universe, I sit [U]as that person[U], that cop who has killed unnecessarily, or the person who kills in retribution.

Things need to change, of course they do, but when we drop our vows we forget the reason we came to Dogen's zen.

Just my opinion but I have nothing but metta and empathy for all sides in this.

Gassho, satlah, Tokan

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by leon

When I took the vow, to save all sentient beings, there was no caveat, no 'but only if that sentient being is nice to me'. But maybe I would want to seek the path of healing instead.

---

Not for the topic of this thread, but Tokan your words here hit me right where I am at and speak exactly to what is keeping me going each day, in a particular longterm situation I'm dealing with.

Thank you for this reminder and this confirmation. [Gassho2]

Gassho, meian st lh


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