'The ZEN of EVERYTHING! Podcast' ... Episode 11 ....

Episode 11: The Dokusan Room is Kinda Baloney

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Jundo and Kirk pop some overly idealized and mythical images of the Dokusan room, the place where teacher tests students and students test teacher. What goes on can be romanticized and overemphasized, misused and misunderstood (especially by modern westerners), yet boundless wonder happens too.

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Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

Great show!

Gassho Kyotai
ST

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

very good stuff!

gassho

rish
-stlah

I've just started listening to these starting with this one. I think my countdown is down to number 7 now. Terrific stuff. They reassured me that I'm travellin' ok.
Gassho
Anna

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Originally Posted by Anna

I've just started listening to these starting with this one. I think my countdown is down to number 7 now. Terrific stuff. They reassured me that I'm travellin' ok.
Gassho
Anna

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anna,

i was going to PM you, but i have a hard time with PMs sometimes. maybe only noticeable to me.

want to thank you for being who you are, for being a pioneer of sorts. (in my opinion)

you often post things that i think, or wish i could say, but don't know how to. (i mean, i literally don't know how to.) then i see one of your posts and think, hey, i was thinking the same thing (only not in word form) -- and there anna said it! then sometimes i piggyback off your post because your post helps me to "translate" my own non-word ideas into words. i wish i could explain what that is like, having thoughts that are non-words that i can't express because i can't type them. but, you sometimes speak my brain for me :)

that gives me the courage to speak what i think and experience because you sometimes pave the way with your words.

for what it's worth -- for me, you are definitely travellin' ok. i am very grateful for your presence here at TreeLeaf. you help give me a voice, too.

keep being your awesome self :)

and yes -- the Zen of Everything does the same for me -- lets me know that i am okay as well, and it also gives me words to speak my experiences.

gassho
kim
st lh

I love these podcasts. I listen to them driving down the road to work. Today, just as Jundo was talking about how we deal with flat tires, somebody inexplicably started driving off the road on the grass, and kicked up lots of dust and pebbles all over my windshield. I had to laugh, maybe I wouldn't have been so bemused had I not been listening.

I just had Dokusan with Jundo, and if anyone is considering doing so I would encourage them to try. I was more intimidated by Skype than the Dokusan.

But, none of that is what I wanted to talk about. Something came up in this podcast about the "Old Zen Guys" ( having just read D. T. Suzuki's work, there are a few Nuns in there too) that I wanted to talk about. These tales and stories about sudden enlightenment etc. after a few words from a Master can be inspiring, but also frustrating if we indulge in some kind of romanticized way of how Zen should be experienced. That was pretty well covered in this podcast. What I would like to point out is that these stories that come to us are stories that have been passed down, and I think we can safely say, a good deal of it by oral traditions. Things like this survive the test of time for a reason. Whether we choose to take them literally or not, in my opinion they are in themselves means of teaching, they are stories deliberately preserved for the express purpose of illustrating a point or teaching. It doesn't even matter if they actually happened. We can kind of get the essence of what is going on when we come to some understandings of what was going on in the minds of these people and the reason we still know about them now, is because they are the topic of ongoing illustration. Even when we look at the life story of Buddha, there's no telling if it all actually happened that way, but that's besides the POINT of us knowing the life story of Buddha. That story is the story of all of us on some level. On the other hand just because our life isn't EXACTLY like Buddha or Hui Neng, it doesn't mean we are off the path we are meant to walk.

Gassho
Ishin
Sat/lah

No one's life is exactly like the Buddha or Hui Neng, especially the Buddha and Hui Neng! hahhahh

I think from one perspective I really like the koans and stories because they are a great ideal, and they are fun, but we have to be very careful to not get focused on this ideal. At the end of the day, these were just practitioners with all the human failings and fears we have. They just got idealized in stories so they could inspire future generations of practitioners.

I think it's the focus on that ideal that causes us to act with certain ways because we think that's what a "Buddhist" would do. But that's wrong.

This podcast is really good btw.

Gassho

Rish
-stlah

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Originally Posted by Risho

No one's life is exactly like the Buddha or Hui Neng, especially the Buddha and Hui Neng! hahhahh

I think from one perspective I really like the koans and stories because they are a great ideal, and they are fun, but we have to be very careful to not get focused on this ideal. At the end of the day, these were just practitioners with all the human failings and fears we have. They just got idealized in stories so they could inspire future generations of practitioners.

I think it's the focus on that ideal that causes us to act with certain ways because we think that's what a "Buddhist" would do. But that's wrong.

This podcast is really good btw.

Gassho

Rish
-stlah

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Right! I think Gudo Roshi admonished against running about trying to pretend to be a bunch of ancient Chinese people. It's not about what Risho can do to become more "Buddhist", it's what can Buddhism can do to help Risho become more Risho, and yet.. not! ;)

Gassho
Ishin
Sat/lah

Yes right right! And I bet you if you we new Gautama or Dogen or Huineng today, we wouldn't fully agree with them, and that's good. It isn't about being right, its' about each of us living what we discover to be real and honest. This is all Jundo, but its' the same as that story with Hui Neng. I used to think Hui Neng was right when he said - what mirror? what dust? etc

He wasn't it was part of the picture. We each have our own "right" way of practice and living our lives. I'm not saying that their isn't a right or wrong, and it's not willy nilly. It's certainly not like that - but there is a nuance. Gutei's "one finger zen", Ishin's "emoji" zen. hahahah You know what I mean - although my practice isn't for me, it's for you, i have to find my true practice that is not going to be Dogen's practice. So the great teachers I feel were just trying to point us back to ourselves so we find out for ourself.

Gassho

Rish
-stlah

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Originally Posted by allwhowander

anna,

i was going to PM you, but i have a hard time with PMs sometimes. maybe only noticeable to me.

want to thank you for being who you are, for being a pioneer of sorts. (in my opinion)

you often post things that i think, or wish i could say, but don't know how to. (i mean, i literally don't know how to.) then i see one of your posts and think, hey, i was thinking the same thing (only not in word form) -- and there anna said it! then sometimes i piggyback off your post because your post helps me to "translate" my own non-word ideas into words. i wish i could explain what that is like, having thoughts that are non-words that i can't express because i can't type them. but, you sometimes speak my brain for me :)

that gives me the courage to speak what i think and experience because you sometimes pave the way with your words.

for what it's worth -- for me, you are definitely travellin' ok. i am very grateful for your presence here at TreeLeaf. you help give me a voice, too.

keep being your awesome self :)

and yes -- the Zen of Everything does the same for me -- lets me know that i am okay as well, and it also gives me words to speak my experiences.

gassho
kim
st lh

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Gassho
Anna
st

Another great eposide! Thank you Jundo and Kirk.
Oh and I love our Dokusan room :)

Gassho
Washin
sattoday

So the other day I realized I had not heard the last couple of Zen of Everything podcasts and wanted to catch up. Not knowing the topics I felt a craving for ice cream that I wanted to enjoy while listening. I eat ice cream about 2 or 3 times a year. Not really a big ice cream fan. But I felt I wanted coffee ice cream. I think the last time I had coffee ice cream was when I was about 12 years old. So I sit back with my coffee ice cream and Kirk starts talking about coffee ice cream.

Gassho
STlah
James

Excellent episode! Thank you, Jundo. I've recently come across koan practice for the first time along my Buddhist journey as a part of a Buddhist lay ministry program that I'm currently doing and our group was discussing the fact that these instantaneous moments of enlightenment don't pass the smell test; however, at the end of the day, this really isn't the point. As I read more koans, I'm beginning to understand the fact that awakening can happen in the midst of doing anything really--in other words, any human experience at any point time has the potential to can create a moment of awakening if we're open to it. This said, it becomes much more about letting life happen naturally than being attached to an awakening that arose from one particular moment in time or one particular spark/"ah-ha" moment.

Grateful to have listened to this episode as it has coincided with many thoughts floating around in my mind lately.

Gassho,
Steven
STLah