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Just a quick question.
I heard Brad Warner say that Dogen didn't believe in any form of Reincarnation or Rebirth....
...isn't that like a Christian not believing in the Resurrection?
It renders Buddhism useless as there are no future consequences or explanations for current circumstances?
Thanks,
Tony...
Hi Tony,
First, Dogen most assuredly did believe in some form of post-mortem rebirth, as most Buddhists of the 13th Century (and many Traditional Buddhists today) did. His writings in Shobogenzo and elsewhere have enough references to traditional views of Karma, that there is little doubt. On the other hand, Zen has always had an emphasis on what is in this moment, and so the emphasis on later lives was always rather ambiguous.
I am a skeptic on very mechanical views of rebirth or, better said, it is not vital to my Practice. As I usually say ...
Frankly, it is not so important to me if Dogen, most folks for 2000 years and the Buddha himself believed in literal views of post-mortem rebirth. They could all be wrong on some things, although the teachings they were right about are more than enough.Quote:
My attitude, and that of many other Buddhist teachers, is that ...
If there are future lives, heavens and hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.
And if there are no future lives, no heavens or hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.
Thus I do not much care if, in the next life, that "gentle way, avoiding harm" will buy me a ticket to heaven and keep me out of hell ... but I know for a fact that it will go far to do so in this life, today, where I see people create all manner of "heavens and hells" for themselves and those around them by their harmful words, thoughts and acts in this life.
And if there is a "heaven and hell" in the next life, or other effects of Karma now ... well, my actions now have effects then too, and might be the ticket to heaven or good rebirth.
In other words, whatever the case ... today, now ... live in a gentle way, avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way) ... seeking to avoid harm now and in the future too.
I believe in future consequences, even if just in this life. As I said above, I see people make hells for themselves ... and for those around them ... in this life through their greed, anger and ignorance. Potential future hells aside, that is enough too.
Gassho, Jundo
Tony
Would you practice any differently if there is or isn't rebirth?
In my experience, Zen doesn't really devote much time to worrying about karmic causes or results in other lifetimes. Things arise, things fall away. If you do the same thing again and again you are likely to get the same result but that's about as far as it goes. Plenty to see to in the present moment without fixating on hypotheticals.
Gassho
Andy
Thanks Jundo, that's reassuring!
Kokuu, interesting question.
I'm not sure. I can't see how I would not be concerned re karmic consequences?? I am creating my future in every second. This implies a huge responsibility to both my future wellbeing and those of others.
Are you not concerned about how your current actions may affect others if not yourself?
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Yes, of course. But following the precepts seems the best way of living whether or not there is rebirth.Quote:
Are you not concerned about how your current actions may affect others if not yourself?
Gassho
Andy
I guess I'm a believer :-) A mental continuum makes most sense to me in terms of why good things happen to bad people and the suffering children experience. Consequently I have developed an healthy concern for future lives in much the same way as I have a concern for who I may be in the future of this life.
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Hello,
Am blessed in birth/rebirth every moment. A finger-snap takes 65 moments.
If you'd like to know every moment of a day snap your fingers 98,463,077 times in row.
There's only 6,400,099,980 moments a day. Can't waste One.^^
Gassho,
Myosha
YOL....um... I have no idea. It's nice to wake up in the morning though.
Gassho, Entai
The future is a complete fabrication of your mind. What you do right now is most important and precepts make a lot of sense as a guide if you need guidance. I think rebirth and reincarnation is an explanation of something unknowable because we can't stand not knowing.
Kind regards. /\
Excellent Rich.
Thank you
Taigu
Wonderful point Rich! =)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich
To me rebirth and reincarnation mean nothing if I am not living right here right now. =)
Gassho
Shingen
Maybe I am not in the right path, but when I am experiencing an important lost or I am sharing the personal catastrophe of someone, to know about the dependant origination and transmigration give me some extra peace (I guess at the end is a faith topic). That not means that I don´t keep my training or that don´t fight when is needed (like samurais) but to know that there is another chance after it, give me an additional shelter against the death (maybe like samurais, again :-D).
Gassho
Senryu
Yes, that would be one explanation as to why children and other seeming innocents suffer. So would saying it is "God's Mysterious Plan" or simply that it is the ways of nature or simple "wrong place, wrong time" bad luck. I am open to all possibilities ... and whatever the case, let us work right here and now to build a world where fewer children and innocents suffer!Quote:
Originally Posted by dharmasponge
By the way, remember that in traditional Buddhism, "rebirth" was not looked at as a positive thing, but something to be ESCAPED! Even a "good rebirth" was not the point, and was considered a kind of honey trap. Buddha sought to get off the wheel of birth-death completely!
Our way also allows us a Viewless View in which there are no "separate children" to suffer, nothing lacking and nothing to be fixed from that start. Nonetheless, that "Viewless View" do not also prevent us from simultaneously working right here and now to fix what needs fixing, helping the children (whether like a dream of not). So, get moving and lend a hand!
Here is an old thread on basic Karma (part of our "'BIG' Questions" series) ... It contains this, a view of Karmic Causation that leaves me skeptical: Did all those innocent people carry some debt from past lives?
I tend to think that so many people were swept up in the Tsunami because, there days, so many millions of people are living close to the short ... an unprecedented number in history. If one is going to build one's home next to a volcano, then one should not be surprised when once in awhile the volcano erupts! So too with many aspects of life.Quote:
[O]n the question of why "bad things happen to good people" and such ... one Buddhist view has always been "because of their 'bad' past Karma". For example, this explanation of why so many folks died in the great Tsunami a few years ago ...
To Ananda Guruge, former Sri Lankan ambassador to the United States who teaches at the Buddhist-affiliated University of the West in Rosemead, the Buddhist doctrine of karmic law, not random chance, determines who lives and dies in any disaster. The region suffered collective bad karma, he says, perhaps prompted by oppression, unjust war or other negative actions that invited the calamity.
In Sri Lanka and Thailand, both majority Buddhist countries hit by the tsunami, people tend to believe that those who perished were paying the price of accumulated demerits in this life or past ones, Guruge said, while the survivors were reaping rewards.
“Buddhist doctrine makes people responsible for their own fate,” said Guruge, whose own family in Sri Lanka largely survived. ...
But he said such doctrines of cause and effect provide solace by empowering people to take corrective action. By doing good deeds, he said, people can improve their own futures and transfer their merits to deceased loved ones to help bring them a better rebirth.
http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jan...al/me-beliefs8
However, another Buddhist view is that there is a perspective by which we can drop all thought of birth, death, Tsunami and victims, suffering and such. By that view, there are no "bad things" to happen to "good people" ... and no "people, for all is empty! This is a view that I often teach when asked about these questions.
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...VI-%28Karma%29
We had another thread yesterday that touched on children who suffer, many of whom manifest a tremendous Wisdom toward their condition ...
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post129624
I am rather skeptical in my beliefs and the flavor of Buddhism I offer here at Treeleaf, but there is no need to feel that one's own ways or practice or understanding are superior (or inferior) to another. Many Buddhists enter and walk the Path through images of heavens, hells, literal rebirth and views of Karma and the like. Many Christians and others speak of heaven and hell. It may be so (and the skeptic's suppositions may be wrong) and, even more importantly, such "superstitious" Beliefs may be the Path and Doorway right for such person. To each their own Path.
Gassho, Jundo
PS - I very much care for these three poems on life-and-death by Kosho Uchiyama Roshi (of "Opening The Hand of Thought", the heir of Kodo Sawaki Roshi). Uchiyama Roshi lived with tuberculosis for over 50 years, and finally succumbed to the disease, so faced all head on. These poems were written by Uchiyama when he was in his 70's ... are the very same non-perspective on life-and-death discussed in this Thread ...
Life-and-Death
Water isn't formed by being ladled into a bucket
Simply the water of the whole Universe has been ladled into a bucket
The water does not disappear because it has been scattered over the ground
It is only that the water of the whole Universe has been emptied into the whole Universe
Life is not born because a person is born
The life of the whole Universe has been ladled into the hardened "idea" called "I"
Life does not disappear because a person dies
Simply, the life of the whole Universe has been poured out of this hardened "idea" of "I" back into the universe
Just Live, Just Die
The Reality prior to the division into two
Thinking it to be so, or not thinking it to be so
Believing it to be so, or not believing it to be so
Existence-nonexistence, life-death
Truth-falsehood, delusion-enlightenment
Self-others, happiness-unhappiness
We live and die within the profundity of Reality
Whatever we encounter is buddha-life
This present Reality is buddha-life
Just living, just dying---within no life or death
Samadhi of the Treasury of the Radiant Light
Though poor, never poor
Though sick, never sick,
Though aging, never aging
Though dying, never dying
Reality prior to division---
Herein lies unlimited depth
Thanks Jundo and everyone.
I see Re- birth/incarnation as the minds continuum projecting another 'form'....swept along of course by dependent origination. Lots of conceptual wording I know, but that's the only way I know how to describe my understanding.
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I honestly don't know first hand. It's possible to string stuff together but, like Rich says, it is a fabrication. Being born in a moment to moment way is an actual experience, like being born into another trip to the fridge, or being born as a defensive me-thing, but nothing is really being born, it's just confusion and tightening. i don't know. Gassho Daizan
... the Alaya Vijnana idea that Ive been looking into is a working theory, but it feels shoehorned, like there was gap and someone created an entity to fill it. It doesn't feel natural or elegant.. IMHO.
Being born every moment is no more valid though really. The description doesn't correspond with our experience. Our experience is of a continuous stream of awareness. It may not be but that's how it appears. My point being that you have no first hand experience of being born moment to moment.
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Hi Dharmasponge. To be honest I don't experience a continuous stream either. By being born moment to moment.. I just mean that if I am walking down the street, there is just footfall and traffic sound, and no "me". But if someone walks up and says "Hey Fathead!", suddenly "I" am born opposite him.Quote:
Originally Posted by dharmasponge
Gassho
Daizan
Impressive :-)
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Being called a fathead does make an impression, but practice goes on.. :D Gassho
Where does the birth come from, you or him?
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Both at the same time. I wouldn't turn it into a theory, it's just an everyday experience, but sure, both appear. Gassho
Not wanting to stir the pot....here are interesting videos from Ajahn Brahm:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htQ12Z2MV0Q
Thank you all for some of the lovely posting in this thread.
Bows
I'm a skeptic that life exists at all after we die. I've seen firsthand how the threat and fear of a hellish afterlife is an easy way to feed fear into the hearts and minds of people. With that being said, I've had several things happen in my life that are unexplainable, seem to almost be, dare I say, supernatural. None of this affects my practice though. As others have already said, we practice here and now, this is where we are, this is all that exists.
Gassho,
Joyo
Lovely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joyo
If there is no more after we die ... there is life right here. This is all that exists.
If there is something after we die ... such is right here too. This is all that exists.
We can't loose! :)
I will say that I find it amazing that, against all the seeming odds that cosmic events would have turned out differently (even one left turn when we needed a right) you and I ended up born in this life now. One little furry ancestor who got eaten before reproducing ... one meteor strike in the wrong place or time ... one great-grandma who never met great-grandpa and fell in love ... and seemingly we should not be here. Our being here is very much madly ridiculous!
And, since the madly ridiculous happened once ... why not again? Such happening would be just more madly ridiculous! :encouragement:
Gassho, J
I agree ... wonderful Joyo. =)Quote:
Originally Posted by Joyo
Gassho
Shingen
The question of rebirth.. this idea of a linear continuity, it is a red herring. It is only a problem for "me" .. Dwelling on it is like being a dog chasing a stick, instead of a tiger keeping its eyes on the person who threw it..... if that makes sense. And an agnostic view is not the same as "don't know", it still just dwelling on the stick.
This probably makes no sense.. better just go paint, words get annoying. [dizzy]. Gassho Daizan
What evidence is there that mind cases though. One thought gives rise to another ad infinitum. Unless you're a materialist...then I'll see you at the bar, mines a Guinness! 😆
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Just re-reading that beautiful poem by Kosho Uchiyama Rosh that Jundo posted. For me the heart of the matter is all there. Just live and die... "Herein lies unlimited depth".Quote:
Originally Posted by dharmasponge
I'll still meet you at the bar though.. and have a cranberry and soda.. gassho2
This idea of me or 10000 ideas of me all disintegrates to some kind of perception or consciousness which is unchanging and eternal. Would drink a Guinness to that😊
Kind regards. /\
Probably not. But three might.
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I think this conversation died, never to be revived. [toomuch]
Gassho, J
Or reborn? .........sorry! 😊
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'but three might'
3 would completely dissolve the original question. 😎😵😄😊😉
Kind regards. /\
Hey everyone, guess I'll chip in and revive it haha. I have no idea what happens "after death." Rebirth would make sense to me (but that doesn't really mean much lol), mainly just by observing things as they are. Seasons pass and return, the sun rises, sets and rises again. Waves fall back into the sea only to crescendo in a reprise. Paints an astounding picture without any inherent endings or beginnings. Yet, in a way we've never seen the same sun twice. The sun we see is different each day, and so are we.
We can see that when something dies it dissolves, never truly having left what it is dissolving into. Perhaps the same molecules will come together again someday, forming a whole new configuration of the skandhas. Perhaps they merely spread out across land and space. Either way, all that we are never departs, only changes. Just as it's changing now.
Gassho, Content John
Hello,
stay clear of materialism, eternalism and nihilism. Open and open again.
Don't worry too much about ultimate questions but ask yourself how much in love you might be with your own views and the capacity of your own intellect.
Gassho,
Hans Chudo Mongen
If we don't create Buddhism, rebirth or reincarnation with our minds then Buddha, rebirth and reincarnation are never a problem. A cat meows, dog barks, a rooster crows. Humans do…? The homeless lady across the street is hungry, I give her a dollar. My neighbor is sick and can't go to the grocery store, I go shopping for her. I stink, I take a shower so I don't offend those around me. :)
Gassho, Jishin
Thank you!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich
Gassho,
Risho
Hey Hans I really like this. What should we do with Buddhism? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans
Gassho
C
Isn't there some kind of rebirth in every moment. Nothing ever stays the same, no birth, no death, but every moment we are born just to die again. So I could see rebirth in this way, and the karma that follows from earlier moments. uhm... but rebirth in the literal sense seems pretty hard to believe in. And also, if there's nothing there to be reborn when the fictional ego dies, what does?
Returning every moment we can
It's not that we don't exist, it's just that most of our thinking about that existence is all wrong. You are the universe. I used to think of the universe as god, but now it seems easier to explain it in terms of energy. So energy is always changing, and maybe we think of it as being reborn.
Kind regards. /\
Just before Rikyu took his own life he said, "When I have this sword there is no Buddha and no Patriarchs." He meant that when we have the sword of big mind, there is no dualistic world. The only thing which exists is this spirit. This kind of imperturbable spirit was always present in Rikyu's tea ceremony. He never did anything in just a dualistic way; he was ready to die in each moment. In ceremony after ceremony he died, and he renewed himself. This is the spirit of the tea ceremony. This is how we bow.
I just got to think about this passage in 'zen mind beginners mind'.
Personally, I do have faith in rebirth. I also think that karma is a more useful concept when applied to one's own behavior and consequences but can be very destructive and limiting when applied to someone ELSE'S situation. We maybe should not try to assign or ascertain or link another person's misfortune to karma. I find that it can harden one's heart if misused.
Regarding rebirth, though - it certainly isn't something about which to be contentious. As the others have said, if rebirth is reflective of the true state of things, the best thing one can do is allow his or her own clarity to emerge and to behave kindly. If rebirth isn't the reflection of the true state of things, the best thing one can do is to allow one's own clarity to emerge and to behave kindly. Clarity and kindness are powerful medicine either way, right?
Zen master who was asked by a student, “Master, what happens after death?” He said, “I don’t know,” and the student quizzically replied, “but master you should know.” The Zen master said, “Yes, but I’m not a dead master.” :)
Gassho, Jishin
Someone asked me to state clearly my own views on Rebirth, feeling that I am being too fuzzy. Well, here goes, but first two old Zen stories ...
I believe that we are all of Reality in the most intimate sense, and that so long as the world goes on so do we in the most intimate sense. It is much as a single small leaf of a tree** might perceive that it is the Great Tree on which it grows in the most intimate sense and, when the day comes for that leaf to fall, another leaf comes with the Spring. However, truly so long as the Tree goes on, our lives go on beyond the little leaf. We, as single leaves, are the Tree, each branch, root and bark and all their growth. And the Tree is but the Forest, the Forest wholly the Mountains and on and on. In Ignorance, we think that we are a separate leaf, and the tree is "out there" apart from us ... human beings who see our small subjective "self" and the "not self" world. Through Zazen, the Thusness of our Treeness is realized. Leaves come and go but, so long as the Tree grows on, there is truly no loss and no coming or going.Quote:
One day Master Zengen went with his teacher Master Dogo to visit a house where someone had recently died to express their condolences. When they were alone, Master Zengen patted the coffin and said to Master Dogo, “Is he alive or dead?”
Master Dogo said, “I will not say alive or dead.”
Master Zengen said, “Why won’t you say?”
Master Dogo said, “I will never say. I will never say.”
Another famous Zen story, not a Koan but something to it ...
A young man asked Gasan what happened after death.
“I do not know,” said Gasan.
“But you are a Zen Master!” exclaimed the young man.
“Yes,” replied Gasan, “but I am not a dead Zen master”.
Here is a picture. I might see a Tree without leaves. But can you show me where are the leaves but not the Tree? Try.
So, how can you show me where you are but not this living world? You are every tree, every forest, the mountains and rivers, the planets and stars. You are all such in motion. You are whatever gardener or wind blown seed planted this Tree too.
But let us turn from nature to machine ...
The Buddha taught that we are the world come together in a particular, most unusual set of circumstances resulting in our being born ... "Karmic" and environmental effects coming together, much as a particular set of grooves on a record and a needle cause one sound to be heard when played, a different set of grooves cause a different song to be heard. We are Reality playing a certain song which is our song.
I do not believe it purely chance that, against all the seeming odds that cosmic events would have turned out differently (even one left turn when we needed a right) you and I ended up born in this life now. One little furry ancestor who got eaten before reproducing ... one meteor strike in the wrong place or time ... one great-grandma who never met great-grandpa and fell in love ... and seemingly we should not be here. Our being here is very much madly ridiculous! I do not believe it primarily chance that we find ourselves in a universe with all the seeming conditions necessary for us to be here at all ... with forces and physical properties neither too strong nor too weak to have forestalled intelligent life. In fact, countless properties and paths of physics, chemistry, stellar and planetary development, biology and genetics and myriad other factors were sufficient to allow our births (sufficient when, seemingly, with one small tweak or untimely turn, such universal properties could easily have been otherwise). We are here because the history of the world, all that was needed, ran right to the doorstep of our birth.
The fact of our births seems so unlikely and (when viewed from any place in time before the happening) so highly improbable given all the seemingly endless opportunities for us to have not been born that, to my eyes, the dice are obviously loaded and a game is certainly afoot! The Tree is bound to bear leaves by its chemistry and biology such that, any leaf born upon it should not be too surprised. Nonetheless, the Tree did not have to be such a tree at all, we did not have to be these particular leaves at all ... in fact, we seemingly did not need to --be-- at all. Yet, here we are against all odds! The song-of-our-life did not simply appear burned into the CD without some harmonious composer with a sense of music ... plus the fine cut of the laser beam! Thus, I sense that there is a designing or controlling hand ... call such "God" or "Physical Principle", "Buddha" or "Big Bang Bubbling" or "Bob the Builder", for the name is not so important ... (something beyond easy understanding for our small human minds, much as ants would be hard pressed to understand the workings of the 747 they crawl upon ... but perhaps not beyond all our understanding, as we human beings are still smarter than ants!) ... that set up circumstances so conducive to life.
(Someday soon, I promise you, science will find the telltale traces of this mechanism and its running. In fact, we already are, and are already starting to see the patterns in the incredible "coming together" of factors. It is all around us. We can understand this 747!)
I believe that our being here, against all odds, is very much madly ridiculous! And, since the madly ridiculous happened once ... why not again? Such happening would be just more madly ridiculous! When the record is played again, with the same grooves, will not the same music play again? When the computer game ends and is restarted, will not the characters return to do somewhat different things in somewhat different ways? I am certain that someday our lives will be found to have been so, like characters popping in and out of some Grand Game (In fact, how would Mario feel if ... suddenly conscious ... he were to reflect on "how did I get here"? We would point to the Wii machine and Nintendo headquarters! We would point out to him that he is the the machine and the programming, and each in turn just him being played!). WE ARE MARIO! :encouragement:
I believe that how we play this game is vitally important. We make heavens and hells in this world by our actions ... of love and generosity, or hate and violence. Let us play this game well! Let's get it right before the quarters run out!
Is the Buddha's view of Karma like the programming to the game, the rules and restrictions which determine which characters appear in which settings, with which circumstances and abilities? Well, something has placed us in a certain setting of life, amid given circumstances with certain abilities. Was it just chance that we popped up so? It seems more likely that some pre-existing factors determined the parameters of our lives than that we just popped up here without some "pre-programming" to make it so. Thereupon, our actions now as characters in the game (Karmic Causes) determine the future course of the game and the future of our own character, perhaps including the next time our character re-emerges in the game after death when the next quarter is put in the slot (Karmic Effects).
It would not be totally unimaginable if, like Mario, we re-began the climb every time life knocked us down or out ... asking "how many lives remaining?"
That is my view. Frankly, I do not see it as so far removed from the Buddha's view some 2,500 years ago. Being a man of Ancient India, he spoke in terms of views of rebirth existing before his time. He was a man of his culture professing beliefs ... some wide and some narrow ... of his Iron Age world and societal assumptions and superstitions. I would expect that, if Buddha were expressing his Teachings today, he might instead use examples of computers and video games, modern physics and DNA. And so for the other Buddhist Teachers of the past who always spoke referencing the culture, technology and social beliefs of their times.
Anyway, that is my take.
Gassho, J
PS - ** Yes, for folks wondering, there is connection here to the origin of the "Treeleaf" name, as well as the fact that all our Sangha members are one, coming together like leaves on many distant branches joined together.
Thank you Jundo.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/24/yvy6ejaj.jpg
I love the video game Donkey Kong! I used to play all the time when I was a kid. :)
Gassho, Jishin
What happen's now? That's a better question.
Thank you all for a very nice thread on a very important topic. My two cents;
I am an agnostic atheist. To me dharma is something to be utilized now and not a tool to alter some hypothetical future existence which may or may not be there. This have been said before by others and I'm just voicing my consent on that.
What I say next is not meant to offend anyone. I suspect this might be a sensitive issue since it's so fundamental for some people’s take on Buddhism. But I've chosen Treeleaf precisely because I think the vibe here is right for me to talk about stuff like this and not feel guilty for "disturbing the peace" or whatever.
Simply saying "the world and the cosmos is miraculously complex and wonderful!" is in my view not a good reason to believe anything and is not a valid argument to be as proof for any claim. All is does is reaffirm the fact that as of yet we have very little idea of what is actually doing on. It is merely an articulation of our ignorance regarding our own situation. The cavemen felt the same way when they saw a solar eclipse. That does not proof that a god ate the sun. It simply proves that we don't really know.
I'm all for the mundane principle of cause and effect. I see that at work daily. That traditional take on karma as a transcendent cosmic thing makes no sense to me at all. Maybe I haven't looked hard enough on here but it seems the implications following such a cosmic phenomenon are being overlooked.
What proof is there backing up this grand claim regarding the way your life, everybody else's life and indeed the entirety of the universe supposedly functions? If you want to have a rational discussion arguments that amount to things like "I feel it in my gut" or "I'd really wish it to be so" do not count. I can't give you (- rhetorical you. Not a specific person.) any credit for that and I hope you understand why.
Okay. Let's go with it. Let's say we're part of some cosmic game. Whether cosmic karma is the rules of the game or not it's still pretty cruel. I am made to suffer just by being here. We are then slaves of some cosmic Matrix or being. I do not wish to be a slave; to be owned or played with. I’m just here and trying to roll with life as it is. There are tribes in Africa who have never heard of the Precepts and others elsewhere who chose not take them up. Does this mean that by the rules of the game they deserve to suffer? One cannot inherit immoral actions. It is the equivalent of convicting me of a crime my distant ancestor committed. There's no way I could possibly have prevented it.
Just so with past lives. I am not involved with them and I do not remember them. How can you state that punishing me for something I did not do and could not possibly have prevented is okay? I cannot take you morally serious. It seems karma requires literal rebirth itself to be true in order to work out. In Buddhism there are no true “self” or soul. For the system to work it also requires some metaphysical repository where my moral records are stored and carried over. It must somehow be distinct from both the body and the mind since these stop at death. Can you prove that and if so how does it work? Who or what sets up the judging criteria for the morality of actions? Do we have objective moral values all of a sudden? How come they're set like that? Who gave whatever it is rights over my future existence that's still not really “me” according to Buddhism?
In conclusion: Following the reasoning of the traditional karma-doctrine as I see it is likely to lead to dark places that make no sense.
Also WAY too much thinking and missing of the point. But! It can never hurt to think an opinion properly through before deciding to adopt it or not.
Anyway. Each to his own. My big elephant in the room at Treeleaf has left.
Now the grumpy guy will go sit. Gassho all!
Hello,
I am not a proponent of traditional ways of presenting Karma and re-birth as some of you might know. What does strike me as interesting however is how very seldom I come across anyone who has actually deeply analysed traditional Buddhist karma models before dismissing them with modern intellectual glee.
How many of those criticising Karma can refer to sources in the Nikayas, how many have read and studied Vasubandhu's Abhidharmakosa and his Karma model?
Please don't get me wrong on this one, I'd personally (and I'm a nobody) much rather have people sit Zazen than to see them spend their time to discuss ancient philosophical "how many angels can dance on a pin" type of questions which can't be proven empirically anyhow, but what I am highlighting is the fact that with most modern Buddhist practitioners, the criticisms are often based on very superficial encounters with the actual source material. And that smacks of arrogance once in a while.
Vaibhashika views are not Madhymaka views are not Yogacara views are not necessarily Dogen's views. :) Do we need all these fancy words and all the historical hair splitting?
IMHO, no :) Shikantaza is complete in itself, but we should intimately know something before we criticise it openly.
Gassho,
Hans Chudo Mongen
Thank you for this thread everyone. I personally do believe in reincarnation, but not in the conventional sense. I have decided not to get into it, because pondering it is really just a distraction to the work at hand. Right now we are here. I agree that viewing rebirth may be comforting to some in the sense that maybe we are "immortal", but for me I think I will side with Buddha's original premise that the cycle of rebirth is something to be passed over. If you want to be reborn, have you passed over it? Or are you still attached to a reason to be here or anywhere. Happy to be HERE. That is enough.
Gassho
C
Hi Aske,Quote:
Originally Posted by Aske
I disagree a little bit about the structure I pointed out because I believe that, in keeping with scientific method, it consists of a set of propositions about which real evidence is obtainable and ... more vitally ... which have predictive power and may be testable.
First, as to the evidence, researchers in astro-physics, chemistry, biology (including genetics, physiology and neurology), atomic and sub-atomic physics and a great array of other fields will continue to uncover ... without a single exception ... a long and consistent string of properties and apparent "happenstances" in each of their fields which will have little to link them and no seeming necessity to have occurred in just such ways except ... without a single exception ... each was a necessary prior condition to life, intelligent life and our particular lives in the universe. From the structure of the Periodic Table to the strengths of the fundamental forces of the universe to the balances found in the planetary climate to the workings of genetics, there are endless factors which seemingly (1) could easily have been otherwise (2) need not have been how they are, yet (3) are just how they are, which happens to be the way we would need them to be for us to be sitting here arguing the question. The reason I say "without a single exception" is merely because, if there were even "a single exception" we would not be here to note the fact. Because we are here to note the fact, there cannot be a single exception.
Second, we will be able to make predictions about the properties of theorized, yet not yet discovered, properties of the universe based on nothing more than that the existence of such an yet unknown property (with very specific and narrow characteristics about it) would be necessary to our lives. Suppose, for example, there were an as yet undiscovered theoretical "Particle X" or "Force Y", with very specific properties, the existence of which is seemingly indispensable in order to allow intelligent life in the universe. Perhaps it is a Particle or Force that otherwise seems unnecessary to exist, and let us assume that the universe would be able to get on just fine in its absence. Let us further assume that, even if it did exist, it could easily have a wide range of characteristics, strengths and other properties most of which would prevent (by not being just as we need) our human existence. However, based on little more than our own existence as human beings, we will be able to predict the existence of such particles and forces with specific properties and, amazingly, such particles and forces of just such properties will be found upon search. Again and again, the universe will show itself to be just the way needed for life like ours even though, again and again, there will appear no need for it to have been so at all.
Third, a set of coincidences may just be coincidence. On the other hand, sometimes a set of coincidence proves to have a cause that make them no "coincidence" after all. In fact, the more strange and unlikely a set of coincidences, the more likely that they are not as coincidental as it seems. Imagine that one goes into a shady casino run by a fellow named "Rocko", and notices that the roulette wheel comes up 1000 times in a row on the very specific numbers and combinations of numbers that Rocko has bet for himself. Rocko wins spin after spin after spin then, moving over to the Blackjack table, he wins every single deal of cards there too. Well, it could just be a line of coincidences (after all, some numbers need to come up, so why not those?). However, at a certain point and looking at the overall situation, I would start to suppose that magnets in the roulette wheel and loaded decks were a more likely explanation. It could just be chance, but it could also just as easily (in fact, much more easily after a certain point) be a cheat. Sure enough, on a search, I might discover just such a mechanism.
Well, how much more amazing is our human birth, the equivalent of winning every single turn of the wheel and hand of cards (without one exception) needed for our births, at every crossroads of history and natural events for 13.7 Billion years? While it may all be chance and "just the way the ball bounced", a better explanation is the equivalent of "cosmic magnets and loaded biological decks". There may be a mechanism to explain why the ball bounced so strangely and, if there is a mechanism, it may be theorized about, tested for and perhaps discovered (much as we have done for countless previously unknown mechanisms which science has found).
What I am proposing is, perhaps, the first set of "religious" claims about the original of mankind and our connection to the universe which might actually be testable and explainable, not to mention seem (unlike a lot of the fantasy that appears in religious myth and dogma) to actually describe how the world really seems to work.
Gassho, J
Someone wrote me for my "best take" on why ... if the universe is so specially hospitable for our lives as I describe ... we still live in a world of wars, cancer and other diseases, children born with all manner of defects and the like.
Traditionally, Buddhists might argue that children born with defects were just "paying the price" for some Karmic debt from a prior life. Christians might suppose that there was some mysterious "God's Plan" at work.
Either of those could be the reason. Or, it could all just be what happens, random nature and bad luck. But I offer a fourth proposition, and furthermore, it is a proposition very much in keeping with both modern scientific discoveries and traditional Buddhist views of causation and freedom of human action.
I believe that our lives manifested in the universe because some mechanism has guided the events and properties of physics, chemistry, biology and all the rest in the direction necessary for life, intelligent life and maybe our very human lives (as evidenced by human life arising as the outcome of an amazing series of prior circumstances and seeming happenstances). It is possible that there are certain laws, mechanisms, physical properties, restrictions and the like which guided universal events into just such a direction (as evidenced by us sitting here discussing the matter despite/as the seemingly hyper-unlikely outcome).
As anyone who has a garden or farm field is well aware, various very restrictive factors of biology such as seed structure, soil and weather restrict what will grow in the garden and when. One cannot get apples from tomato seeds. Tomatoes grow, not by random chance, but because a gardener or farmer (a mechanism) place tomato seeds onto the ground and water is added. If one plants tomato seeds, tends and waters, it is no surprise at all that tomatoes, and not apples, will appear in the garden a few weeks later precisely where the seeds were placed. The growing of the tomatoes is not a totally random event, but an event brought about by the gardener's choices and the nature of the seeds.
Nonetheless, though the growth of tomatoes themselves proves to be a determined outcome given that tomato seeds were planted and tended, still, the actual tomatoes which appear ... big and little, round or strangely shaped, healthy or deformed, tasty or bitter etc. ... demonstrate a great deal of randomness and variety within the parameters. The universe seems to grow things based on a shotgun process, by which some of the growth of the garden will run very wild. Despite the gardener's best efforts, nature does not always turn out "perfect" crops each time and, unfortunately, I believe that something similar happens with children in the womb too. Likewise with our human bodily cells which grow and divide according to very restricted and mechanical principles, yet with sufficient freedom to have the potential to sometimes run amuck as cancer. Nature sometimes "miscopies" a chromosome, hits a dead end or runs wild.
Turning from nature to machines again ...
Assuming that there are limiting laws and mechanisms which somehow made our human births somehow more than pure dumb luck, nonetheless, there is also found amazing freedom of behavior and randomness of outcome within the confines of those limitations. In other words, something may have led to our births as "loaded dice", but once born we choose and act with a degree of free will and autonomy. To return to MARIO: The parameters of the game are written in the program ... what the characters can and cannot do is subject to various restrictions, and when the characters will appear in the game may also be part of the program. However, once a character appears in the game, there is a surprising amount of freedom and flexibility to what MARIO and the other characters can do, the directions they may head, the "choices" they can make. If anyone has every played an urban simulation game called "Simcity", the parameters within the programming are very narrow and restrictive about how the game is played. However, within the confines of those restrictions, countless choices and patterns are possible in designing one's unique city ...
http://macworld.idg.se/polopoly_fs/1...3751990918.jpghttp://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...LL._SX466_.png
Again, if such a mechanism exists in such way, I think that someday soon we may be able to test for it. The code underlying our "Simcity" will not always be hidden from sight.
War, violence and the harms we do to each other within this "video game we call 'this life'" are also matters of free choice, just as some games ... within certain parameters ... allow all manner of violence, greed and mayhem (as anyone who has ever played an unfortunate game like "Grand Theft Auto" can experience).
http://gsking.weebly.com/uploads/2/4...486932.jpg?421
So, as the Buddha taught ... I think the world is bound by causation, yet simultaneously very free. And, thus, we find ourselves in this world with freedom enough to make a violent and greedy mess of things should we wish.
Are my propositions silly? Well, no more silly than what one might find in the Tibetan Book of the Dead or Book of Genesis. But, in contrast, I feel that what I describe is so much closer to how the world can be seen and experienced to work with our own eyes, and the propositions may even be testable and demonstrable.
Gassho, J
Hi Aske, just want to mention that there are human repositories like the genes and mind-body habits and reflexes which for better or worse control us. But the good news is that with practice a certain presence can be developed to enable us to change if change is required. And I'm still working on that - the practice and the change.
Kind regards. /\
Awesome teaching! Many thanks for using the tree and its leaves to help clarify this. Helps me to see the path through the woods gassho1
After further thought, I am going to edit this and give my take on birth and death...please remember that this is only my opinion.
I believe that karma fits in to the "birth" and "death" of us in each moment. I am not the same as I was yesterday, and I will not be the same as I am today tomorrow - therefore I am "born" and "die" in each moment.
My actions before my new "birth" (this moment) can affect this moment, and can also affect me after my "death" (the end of this moment). For example - if I choose to rob a blind man, then karma may very well catch up with me and affect my "re-birth" in another moment - or many moments for that matter (how about 15-20 in the slammer!). Or, let's say I choose to abuse drugs - this could very well have a lasting affect on my future "re-births", and cause my "karma" to be "bad". The opposite, I believe, can be true for the good choices we make.
As far as what happens to the "self" when the body finally gives in -whether from old age, accident, or disease - is something I do not know, nor do I believe any of us knows. So, with this in mind, I choose to live in this moment and not dwell on that which I do not know.
Gassho,
Tim
Nice, Tim
Hi Tim,Quote:
Originally Posted by TimF
This is my way of seeing too.
But I would like to point out one kind of "rebirth" and "reaping of Karmic effects after the 'body finally gives in" that we might learn to see even if skeptical of many views of "rebirth".
Go back to the tree and leaves ...
Pick one to represent yourself. Now show me where where is your particular leaf but not the Tree? Try.
You cannot. (You may point to parts of the tree that seem not to be the leaf, but you cannot point to your leaf without pointing to the tree). That is because, while you are you (leaf is leaf), the tree is also what you are in the most intimate sense (leaf is tree). You are 100% tree. And so are all the other leaves, the bark, the sap and wood and roots. In the Mahayana Buddhist view of interpenetration and mutual-identity, you are the tree in the most intimate sense ... all the rest is tree in the most intimate sense ... and ultimately since all is tree, all is you too in the most intimate sense.
But we "human being" leaves have some special properties, making us very special leaves with some amazing abilities: First, we are sentient beings who are conscious and self-aware (in fact, we are 'self-aware' in a way by which our brains tend to divide our self-identity as being separate and independent from the "not me rest of the tree". We think there are basically two subject/object categories in the world: "me" and "everything else." Much of Zen Practice is to re-unite ourselves mentally with the "just who we are all along" tree and all it contains which we falsely think is somehow "not me, apart, out there and kinda scary").
Next, our actions impact the tree and all it contains ... in some ways right to the root (modern physics tells us that our every movement and action has some impact and force which reaches ... however subtly ... right to the farthest reaches of the cosmos, much like tugging on one corner of an ordinary bed sheet will cause some change ... however subtly ... at the far reaches, so it is even light years away). But our actions most directly and strongly impact all the neighboring leaves that share one's branch. Let us look at our planet and society as "our branch" filled with all the other "human leaves" with which we share this world. The violence we do can scar and maim our "branch" of society and the fellow humans with which we share it, the pollution and excess consumption driven by greed can damage or destroy our planet, the bow to which we cling for life. Likewise, love and caring can make a better society, and nurturing of this planet can make a more healthful environment for the future ... much like watering and nurturing our corner of the tree. Our actions ... whether of greed, anger and ignorance or of generosity, peace, moderation and wholeness ... have effects that may last well after our little leafs (you and me) seem to tumble from the branch when (in your words) "this body finally gives in".
That is all true.
But now recall that you are the tree in the most intimate sense, as well as all the other leaves in the most intimate sense. You are even the little leaf which will come to "take your place" on the branch when spring comes, and you are so in the most intimate sense. It is Tree and so are you and you are it. (To emphasize: I do not mean simply that "we all share a common branch or are parts of the same tree with other parts. Rather I mean that, from one beautiful perspective, they are you and you just that.).
Thus, in such way, it can be said that your good and bad actions in this life will impact and be felt as the "you" who will appear on the branch in the future, long after this "leaf" you are now drifts to the ground. You actions will also impact all the other leaves of the branch, and they are you too (and you they). Your actions now are bound to be felt in your future lives on this planet!
BY THE WAY, let me explain what is going on with these posts in this thread by me (especially for folks who may be wondering where all this is coming from):
I have been interested for a long time in seeing if any aspects of traditional Buddhist views of "rebirth" can be salvaged and re-expressed in ways perfectly compatible with the views and methods of modern science. I believe some can, as I am trying to present here. Although many aspects of traditional interpretations of rebirth are hard to salvage (often even silly) and seem to me nothing more than fantasy and creative religious imaginings, there are perspectives by which we can see that ... like the leaves on the tree ... you and I "continue on" with the totality which we are, share self-identity with all other things in the cosmos, and our actions have effects which impact all of it ... including the "future us's" which will someday spring from its branches. I do not think it necessary to "throw out the Baby Buddha with the bathwater" on the subject of "post-mortem rebirth".
Furthermore, most of the ideas I present are NOT original to me, even though I am speaking in modern terms of "video games" and such. In fact, they are based on Teachings of Mahayana Buddhism which have been for centuries and remain vital to Zen Buddhism, including our Dogen ... the Teachings of "Hua-yen" or the "Flower Garland".
Such Teachings of Interpenetration and Mutual Identity were at the heart of Master Dogen's worldview, such as in his Teaching of the One Bright Pearl ...Quote:
The teaching [of the Hua-yen School] maintains the interdependence and equality of all appearance, the ‘teaching of totality’. Appearances may be in different states, but they are necessarily interdependent in constituting the universe of phenomena, and in equally manifesting the Buddha-illumination of enlightenment.
...
The basic idea of the Avatamsaka [Flower Garland] Sutra is the unity of the absolute and the relative: All in One, One in All. The All melts into a single whole. There are no divisions in the totality of reality ... the cosmos viewed as holy, as "one bright pearl," the universal reality of the Buddha."
...
When Fazang [one of the principle Teachers of the school] first lectured on the Flower Garland Sutra ...he used metaphors such as Indra’s Net of Jewels and the Golden Lion. ....
A frequently cited expression of this vision of reality is the simile of Indra’s Net from the Avatamsaka Sutra, which was further elaborated by the Huayan teachers. The whole universe is seen as a multidimensional net. At every point where the strands of the net meet, jewels are set. Each jewel reflects the light reflected in the jewels around it, and each of those jewels in turn reflects the light from all the jewels around them, and so on, forever. In this way, each jewel, or each particular entity or event, including each person, ultimately reflects and expresses the radiance of the entire universe. All of totality can be seen in each of its parts.
Fazang [further] llustrated the Huayan teachings for Empress Wu by constructing a hall of mirrors, placing mirrors on the ceiling, floor, four walls, and four corners of a room. In the center he placed a Buddha image with a lamp next to it. Standing in this room, the empress could see that the reflection in any one mirror clearly reflected the reflections from all of the other mirrors, including the specific reflection of the Buddha image in each one. This fully demonstrated the unobstructed interpenetration of the particular and the totality, with each one contained in all, and with all contained in each one. Moreover, it showed the nonobstructed interpenetration of each particular mirror with each of the others.
Gassho, JQuote:
All the universe is one bright pearl—we do not speak of two pearls or three pearls. The whole body is one right Dharma eye. The whole body is the Real body. The whole body is One Expression. The whole body is light. The whole body is Mind in its totality. When it is the whole body, the whole body knows no hindrance. Everywhere is perfectly round, turning over, rolling smoothly. ....
Thus, though its face seems to keep on changing, turning, and stopping, it is one bright pearl. Knowing that one bright pearl is indeed like this—that is one bright pearl. The colorations and configurations of one bright pearl are encountered in this manner. When it is thus, there is no reason to worry that you are not one bright pearl because in confusion you think, “I am not the pearl.” Worrying and doubting, grasping and rejection, action and inaction are all but temporary views of small measure. Moreover, this is only one bright pearl appearing as small-scale notions.
Should we not cherish such infinite colorations and brilliance? Each of the many facets of its radiant variegations are the quality of the entire universe—who can take them away? There is no one casting a tile in the marketplace. Do not trouble yourself about not falling into or not being blind to the cause and effect of mundane existence. Being essentially unobscured from first to last, one bright pearl is the original face and the enlightened eye.
http://dharmafield.org/resources/tex...-bright-pearl/
On origins, I find that one is actually perfectly capable of holding both positions if one discards the notion that 'random chance' and 'not random chance' are mutually exclusive positions. They are, indeed - or at least can be - complementary views.
It might be interesting to examine the reasons why one feels the need to grasp too tightly to either of these views.
Chet
Hi Universal Lottery Winners!
I was asked if I believe in Darwin's Theory of Evolution and "Survival of the Fittest" since I also posit that somehow the "dice may be loaded" to explain the "hyper-lucky" happenstance of each of us being born.
The answer is that, yes, I am a Darwinian ... but I do not believe that such is the only way to look at things, or a complete description of what is going on.
You know, one could imagine scenarios in which there is the appearance of random process in what is actually a fully or highly determined system. For example, a movie of dice rolling looks exactly like dice rolling to someone who does not realize they are watching a film. A computer program and a bit of animation could create the appearance of dice rolling randomly even though the program fully determined the outcome and sequence of each roll. The magnetized roulette wheel at Rocko's Casino looks highly random, although it is anything but. Nature may have ways (as yet unknown, although that does not mean that they cannot someday be known) to guide processes down certain directions over others.
As I said, I personally believe that life in the universe is a lovely combination of necessity and freedom. I can think of several possible means or explanations for how Darwin's system could be right, yet our existence as who we are also something of a foregone conclusion. (That does not mean that any of these means and explanations are, in fact, what is going on. However, each is possible and, I would wager, eventually a mechanism in some way similar will someday be discovered).
One is that the universe functions like some kind of computer program or natural process that wholly or partially guides evolution in certain directions, or wholly or partially limits potential outcomes.
Another is something that Buddhists have been teaching so for 2500 years: Namely, that our experience of the world is wholly or partly like a dream or illusion of the mind in which more is possible that we know. In fact, life may be something like a "movie" or "video game" that we are all characters in, although we do not realize so.
Another possibility is that the universe (or universes in a multiverse, as Buddhists have describe for millenia) is so incredibly vast that truly almost anything is possible. Because almost anything is possible in such a universe, when the particular circumstances and necessary factors come up to create your life then you experience it. For example, imagine that there was a playerpiano that hit every combination of notes randomly without any limitation. Eventually, given sufficient time, the piano would happen to play perfectly Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata" just by hit and miss. In like fashion, one might suppose that when the universe finally got around to your notes by hit and miss, "you" got played. You are like the "Moonlight Sonata", ringing out when your times has finally happened to come. (I actually do not care for this explanation, as it seems to explain better why there might be endless copies of Jundo in this poor universe popping up in various times and places, than why there is this particular Jundo ... the one Jundo this Jundo needs to be Jundo now ... in this particular time and place that I need to be me.)
Anyway, my point is not that any of the foregoing are going to prove to be true, but merely that there could be many ways in which Evolution would appear to work, yet things are not all quite what they seem. There may be an additional, complementary mechanism at work which we may also someday discover working parallel to Evolution. I very much doubt that it will be much like the traditional image of "Karma", but it may yet exist to explain how our human lives seemingly beat all the odds to be here.
As the Diamond Sutra reminds us ...
So you should view this fleeting world --
A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream,
A flash of lightening in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
Gassho, J
PS - Just for reference, to show that much of this kind of argument fits well with traditional Buddhist views ...
Quote:
Nagarjuna (1st-2nd cent. CE), one of the founding “fathers” of Mahayana Buddhism, in his Mahaprajńaparamitopadesa, gives the following explanation for the usefulness of the dream-simile:
“A) There is no reality in a dream, and yet, while one dreams, one believes in the reality of the things
one sees in the dream. After one has woken up one recognizes the falseness of the dream and laughs at
oneself. Just so a man who is plunged into the dreamy state which results from his fettered [egocentric]
existence, has a belief in things which do not exist. But when he has found the Path, then, at
the moment of enlightenment, he understands that there is no reality in them and he laughs at himself.
“B) A dreamer, by the force of his dream, sees a thing where there is nothing. Just so, a man, by the
force of the dreamy state which results from ignorance, believes in the existence of all sorts of things
which do not exist, such as “I” and “mine,” male and female, etc..
C) In a dream one rejoices although
there is nothing enjoyable, one is angry although there is nothing to annoy, one is frightened although
there is nothing to frighten. So do the beings with regard to the things of the world.”[7]
The Buddha's emphasis on Karma/Rebirth was itself his attempt at a system (although largely inherited from earlier Indian beliefs prevalent during his age) to explain the happenstance of being born in the circumstances we are. Karma seeks to explain the happenstance of human birth despite the odds (and why things work out the way they do). I do not personally believe in many of the overly literal ancient systems of Karma, but as I have said, feel that certainly something is afoot. The Buddha spoke of the blind turtle ...
Gassho, A Fellow Winner in Life's CasinoQuote:
The story behind this reference is found in the parable of the blind turtle, which appears in the [Lotus Sutra and] Āgama Sutra. A blind turtle, whose life span is immeasurable kalpas, lives at the bottom of the sea. Once every one hundred years, it rises to the surface. There is only one log floating in the sea with a suitable hollow in it. Since the turtle is blind and the log is tossed about by the wind and waves, the likelihood of the turtle reaching the log is extremely remote. It is even rarer, says Shakyamuni, to be born a human being; having succeeded in doing so, one should use the opportunity to master the four noble truths and attain deliverance.
Thank you very much for that Jundo. Lots to ponder there. I'm so glad and grateful that we can discuss stuff like this in a fruitful manner!
Much respect and Gassho
A very interesting thread.
Gassho, Kantai
Hello,
One Pearl / One Way: It all begins with an irritant.^^
Gassho,
Myosha
This thread is great! Again, the use of a tree to help provide a visual (both in sight and mind) to explain how we are one (and show how karma can affect beyond the body finally giving in) sits perfectly in me.
Gassho,
Tim
There are a lot of reasons the Buddha may have propounded a faith in rebirth and karma. I tend to dismiss the ones based on the supposition that he was merely devising a system of morality regardless of truth. I can't think of a single instance (admittedly, my reading of scripture is far from comprehensive) where he knowingly lied. Whatever the truth of rebirth is, I think we can be fairly sure that the Buddha himself had a very firm faith or belief in its veracity. I also have a hard time believing that he simply kept the beliefs of his time because he shows a pattern of discarding practices and views that he felt were demonstrably wrong regardless of how conventionally held to they were at the time.
Hi there,
interesting thread - thanks for your comprehensive input Jundo.
Gassho
Willow
Excellent thread. I don't have any beliefs about what happens when we die. I don't know and don't really think about it all that much. I am trying to focus on my moment to moment experience. That being said, I am not at a very advanced stage in my development in this area. When I am completely honest with myself, I find that I am still at the Woody Allen stage (i.e., I'd prefer to achieve immortality by not dying). :)
Gassho,
Rick
I have been searching for this a few days ago... where does it come from? Who thought it up and what is it based on? Just out of curiosity... Isn't there just now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Myosha
For the rest, I don't know, and loving it :)
Gassho
Vincent
Hello,
Chapter 26, Dogen Zenji, Shobogenzo.
A Fun Fact! Now.
Master has an awesome sense of humor.
Gassho,
Myosha
I for one tend to live as if rebirth/reincarnation were true, without the belief that they are. Maybe there is nothing after this life, maybe there is. Whatever happens, I believe that our lives/deaths are infinitely more complex, and subtle, than any of us really begin to understand and causation/rebirth/karma are a way for us to begin to comprehend that infinite interdependence. The energy of life has to go somewhere, even if all I do is feed worms with a decaying body, isn't that in some small way a part of life after I die? Personally, I think that there is more to it, but that none of us are capable of understanding it, so I practice my life as if the historic teachings on rebirth are true. It can't hurt me, and it can only make things better. It is a simple faith in the Dharma, that the teachings are true in their essence, even if all of the mechanics are not fully explainable.
Gassho, Neika
Hello,
Did I just see Super Mario 3D world in a Zen forum?
Now I want to buy a Wii U.
Gassho,
Chet
Hi,
When I first started exploring Buddhist teachings and practice, some of the first areas I sought to understand were kamma and rebirth.
As was suggested with all the teachings, I explore them by seeing if they hold up to my experience of reality (I have never held with the idea of blind faith without scrutiny)
For me the explanation that was taught very clearly is to be found in the Pali Canon (Culakammavibhanga Sutts; III 202-6)
My understanding from this is that the situation you will reborn into is random, regardless of positive/negative actions in previous lives. However, the 'mind' you bring forward into that life and situation will be moulded by those previous actions.
At no point do I see reference to being born physically challenged or in bad circumstances as a result of kamma.
Terms such as being reborn to sickliness or ugliness are clearly defined as:
'....wherever he is reborn he is sickly. This is the way,student, that leads to sickliness, namely, one is given to injuring beings with the hand,with a clod, with a stick, or with a knife'
'....wherever he is reborn he is ugly. This is the way, student, that leads to ugliness, namely, one is of angry and irritable character'
As to holding the whole concept to scrutiny, I have. Without a long discourse explaining all my exploration of this, my own experience shows me that babies are born with character traits (often very different to their parents). Consciousness cannot be bound to a physical form which completely renews over ten years (look at a picture of yourself when you were seven!). Issues such as behaviour found in all sentient beings (migration etc) as yet unexplained satisfactorily by science other than to define it as instinct and consider it a closed matter. Personal experience, for example, I witnessed my baby niece becoming terrified the first time she saw someone unrealing a hose and it 'snaked' around on the grass. It seems she had gained this apparent fear of a snake from somewhere. And much much more..
In a broader aspect, I find it very interesting to see that Buddhist concepts are being confirmed by discoveries in fields such as quantum physics.
However, I've done much of this exploration of the 'big' concepts early on in my experience of Buddhism and , satisfied with what I've found, I don't feel the need to keep digging over them. As I learn new things, I just do what was taught and weigh them up against my own experience, then move on and try to concentrate on practice.
I feel very fortunate in that I've so far been able to continue without carrying doubts over the teachings of the Buddha. I'm not one for posting much but I hope my take may be of some interest :)
Gassho,
Rich
Wonderful, Rich. I liken the future to an imaginary friend or fable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich
Gassho,
Joyo
There is a saying that goes like this:
"If I have one leg in the past and one leg in the future then I'm pissing all over myself." :)
Gassho, Jishin
If you got one leg