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I sit in the mornings for 15 minutes and stare at the wall. It does however just feel like I am just spending 15 mins sitting quietly while I carry on my normal thoughts. I then go about my day not feeling any difference than a day I do not sit.
So am I doing something wrong or is this it???
Sat today
Hello,Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewH
You are new to this, so may not realize that Zazen is not simply sitting around. It is not just sitting there, having thoughts, twiddling the thumbs.
Please read this, and it will show you the subtle nature of this, and what needs to be in sitting.
WHAT's OFTEN MISSING in SHIKANTAZA EXPLANATIONS ....
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...A-EXPLANATIONS
It is vastly different from just sitting around like a bump on a log.
For, in Shikantaza, one sits with a trust deep in the bones that this sitting is a Buddha sitting, not one more thing to do, nothing lacking, no other place one can be, the sitting as all the universe sitting, with radical equanimity that all that is is just as it is.
Sit, let thoughts come, but do not grab on, do not get tangled in long trains of thought, do not stir them up. Just let them come and let them go like passing clouds. Sit in radical equanimity, but with conviction that Zazen is complete, with no other place to be in that moment, nothing more in need of doing.
If you feel that Zazen is missing something, then it is missing something. If you feel that Zazen is complete as Zazen, and that it hits the spot, then Zazen hits the spot. The reason is that Zazen is just Zazen, like life and the world are just life and the world. All the judging, rating, feeling something missing is done between your ears. You are looking for pay-offs, when the greatest pay-off is no longer to feel need for there is no sense of lack.
Gassho, J
STLah
There is no good zazen nor is there any bad zazen; it's just Your Zazen ! [monk]
合掌
stlah
Yes, this is vitally important too! How often we live in a world of constantly rating and judging "good vs. bad," so how to "rate" a practice which involves our dropping the constant judging of "good vs. bad"??Quote:
Originally Posted by Shokai
Gassho, JQuote:
Right Zazen and Wrong Zazen
[A]llowing things to just be the way they are, no judging, not resisting, being with the flow, allowing 'happy' days to be happy and 'sad' days to be sad, all while dropping all idea of 'happy' and 'sad', whether really enjoying or really not enjoying ... fully dropping away any and all thought of doing Zazen 'right' or doing it 'wrong' ... THIS IS DOING IT RIGHT. And when you are doing it right, it will usually feel like you are doing it right, for there is no resistance, and a great sense of balance, insight and brilliance..
Fighting things, wishing things were some other way that how they are, judging, resisting, going against the grain and the flow, wishing 'sad' days were happy or 'happy' days were happier ... filled with a sense of self bumping up against all the other 'selfs', with a mind held by thoughts of doing Zazen 'right' or doing it 'wrong' ... THIS IS DOING ZAZEN WRONG. And when you are doing it wrong, it will usually feel like you are doing it wrong, for there is resistance, and a sense of imbalance, cloudiness, greyness.
But as well, even at those times when Zazen feels 'wrong', when there is resistance or imbalance ... it is still 'right', still 'Zazen', still just what it is. IT CANNOT BE WRONG. This last point is vital to understanding.
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...nd-Wrong-Zazen
STLah
Thank you both very helpful
Gassho
Sat
In rereading the link you posted Jundo, I am a bit confused. We are not to seek anything, yet you mention things like "nurture these feeling", and certain ways of thinking about zazen. Wouldn't this be seeking them, in a way? How are we to nurture feelings, when we arent supposed to feel anything in zazen?
Gassho
John
STLah
Nurture the feeling of nothing more to nurture, nothing lacking.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnS
Where in heck did you get the idea that we are not supposed to feel anything in Zazen? That's not true! Perhaps we could say that we do not get swept away by extreme emotions (especially negative or harmful emotions, like anger), which also sitting in a calm and still place too that is the core of emotions.
Gassho, J
STLah
Whenever I sit zazen, after I get up (slowly!), I silently say to myself, "That was the content of my zazen."
108 bows of gratitude to Sawaki Roshi and Uchiyama Roshi for this perspective.
Max
I would like to add that the following sentences from Dogen Zenji's Bendowa fascicle help me whenever this very question starts popping up in my head. Maybe it can be a source of motivation for someone else:
And, thank you Jundo for your answer. Your explanation is really a helpful one and this "radical equanimity" idea really seems like a vital point to realizing the essential nature of Zazen. Sometimes, I feel that I am connected with this radical equanimity to an extent; and other times, when my mind is quite scattered or when I'm just conquered by some kind of expectation, I recall this phrase. Most of the time it helps but again, sometimes, my sitting turns into almost a kind of object-focused meditation, or even sometimes my mind quickly turns this phrase into a mantra. I keep repeating "Radical equanimity", "There's no bad zazen", "No other place I can be"... And neither contemplating about equanimity nor repeating the word equanimity can be a form of equanimity, let alone radical equanimity. So I wonder if there's anything that you can recommend. Thanks a lot.Quote:
"Zazen, even if it is only one human being sitting for one moment, thus enters into mystical cooperation with all dharmas, and completely penetrates all times; and it, therefore, performs, within the limitless universe, the eternal work of the Buddha’s guiding influence in the past, future, and present. For everyone, it is completely the same practice and the same experience."
Gassho, Doğukan.
Sat.
Just radically accept with equanimity that sometimes you struggle to feel equanimity, and do not feel equanimity. Equanimity about no equanimity.Quote:
I keep repeating "Radical equanimity", "There's no bad zazen", "No other place I can be"... And neither contemplating about equanimity nor repeating the word equanimity can be a form of equanimity, let alone radical equanimity. So I wonder if there's anything that you can recommend. Thanks a lot.
(By the way, your short "mantra" practice is interesting, and is acceptable for a few minutes, or on very stormy days, to settle a bit. It is like following the breath for some minutes. Then, after reciting or following the breath, I encourage folks to sit in open awareness if they can.)
Gassho, J
STLah
gassho2Quote:
Originally Posted by Jundo
Doğukan,
Sat.
The mind is habituated to achieving, acquiring, grasping anything and everything. When your center becomes stronger you may notice the joy of doing nothing. Until then keep practicingQuote:
Originally Posted by AndrewH
https://media0.giphy.com/media/hpFTV...8pEX/giphy.gif
Sat/lah
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Since we have been talking about Muho on other threads I think this fits here nicely. . .
https://youtu.be/QEYGdFiUVaw
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Wow his look is intense like that of a tiger yet calm and serene, very striking. As for the message, I agree. The more time I put into the practice, the more deluded I realize I am:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Gregor
Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH
Lovely! So, makes one wonder why Muho and the Antaiji folks sit their sesshin for 50 minutes a sit, 15 hours a day, if "good for nothing, nothing to attain"? Hmmm. It is a Koan. Muho is also Rinzai trained, and is a tough guy with a taste for very hard sitting (you should hear his stories about being in the Rinzai monastery, and having to defecate on the Zafu because not allowed to move, and pity the people sitting next to you when that happens! [scared] Then, they can't even wash up afterwards.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregor
I like to say that, sometimes, one must sit very very long, and very very hard, all to realize the real meaning of this "good for nothing, nothing to attain." It is something like climbing a great mountain, not to get to the top, but for the climb itself, every step of the way its own summit!
On the other hand, sitting a very short time, any place, is also the summit, and the whole mountain, "good for nothing, nothing to attain."
Many years ago, Muho saw a video of me sitting Zazen by the side of a busy highway, sitting in my car for a few minutes. I had to explain to him that one can sit anywhere, not only in the Lotus Posture, and that the busy highway is quiet when the heart is quiet. So, we have a little bit of a different in approach about where and when, and for how long, is always necessary for this "good for nothing, nothing to attain." I think that, recently, he has come to realize this a little more, so Treeleaf had a good effect on Muho too.
Sometimes sit long, sometimes sit short, sometimes sit hard, sometimes sit soft ... always sit beyond time and measure.
One can defecate on the Zafu, sit for 15 hours, or sit quietly in a car by the busy highway ... all "good for nothing, nothing to attain."
Gassho, J
STLah
Defecate on the zafu? That’s extreme. Like fraternity hazing. That type of militaristic training sitting 15 hours a day is not for me and not necessary imo
https://media1.giphy.com/media/gH35f...j75n/giphy.gif
Sat/lah
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I am sure that military guys in foxholes have been their countless times too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich
I went to find the story. It is from an interview. He was at Tofukuji, a Rinzai monastery ...
~~~~~~~~~~~~
In Tofukuji, you get up before 3am. Then you do sutra chanting from 3am-4am. Then breakfast at 4.30am. Then there’s zazen and the first dokusan meeting with the roshi. You do zazen until the sun rises, in the winter it’s longer than the summer. After sunrise, you clean the whole temple precincts. That can take two hours, because it’s huge.
Then you do takuhatsu [mendicancy] until 10am. Then it’s lunch. After lunch, the newest monks do toilet cleaning, while the older monks can take a nap. From 1am there is samu or, if the roshi has guests, you have to cater for them. Dinner is around 4.30pm and then around 5pm, there is zazen again until 9pm.
Officially, at 9pm, you lie down and sleep but that is only a show. You lie down for a minute or two, then get out of the futon. You take your cushion and then sit outside under the hondo roof facing the garden until 10pm. Then the oldest monk leaves. Then, every five minutes, the next in the hierarchy can leave. In my time, there was around 11 monks, so it took one hour until I could go to bed – so 11pm. That means you only have four hours to sleep.
Also, you have to memorise the sutras for chanting. In the first few months. The sutra-chanting is done in a ridiculously fast way – like a machine gun. It sounds like gurgling. So you try to imitate these sounds. And they say, hey you’re not chanting fast enough. They are also quite free-wheeling with slapping you in the face. Or sometimes they will punch you, if you get the chanting wrong. Basically, you have to stay up after 11pm and use a flashlight to memorise the sutras. But if you only have four hours to sleep, even if you stay up until midnight, the next morning it’s all gone. Your brain doesn’t absorb anything in that situation.
For any mistake, if your slippers are not straight by a millimetre, you get punched for that. Also, you can’t go to the toilet without permission. And if things are busy, or your senpai is in a bad mood, he says no. Then you have to eat this ridiculous amount of stuff. These three bowls filled with rice and three bowls of soup. The lowest one in the hierarchy has to eat all the leftover rice, and the second lowest has to drink all the leftover soup. In the beginning, I had to eat all the rice, which was a lot. And in the summer, I drank all the soup. I was lucky it was that way round. If it’s the opposite, you have to eat all this rice in the heat and drink all this liquid when it’s cold.
When you have to eat all the left-overs, you have to go to the toilet quite frequently and sooner or later you’d get diarrhoea. Each time you have to ask your senpai for permission. If you’re not allowed to go to the toilet, you have no choice but to shit in your pants. But then it’s not, “oh please go take a shower and change your clothes!”. You have to somehow escape behind the hondo and dispose your pants and wash yourself at night in the pond. Ofuro [bath] is only every two weeks. And ofuro for the monks at the bottom of the ladder means you have to wash the backs of your senpai. They enter the ofuro for 10 to 15 minutes, they finish, look at their watch and say, oh there’s no more time, get out. So you don’t even have your ofuro.
This means that when you go for takuhatsu, and it’s the rush hour, you enter a train and it’s normally like a sardine can. But because we were stinking so much, we would enter a train and have more than enough space to stand.
[Interviewer]: Like a blast radius?
Muho: Exactly. We didn’t notice it any more. You’re always in this stink. I only have respect for the roshi meeting us during dokusan.
Then in zazen you are always sleeping because you’re so tired. Everything is so surreal that you pass out the minute the bell strikes. But there’s always one person patrolling with a stick. And when you sleep, you get hammered on. Usually, it’s four strikes in the summer, and eight in the winter. Half on each shoulder. People take pride in how many of these sticks they can break. In sesshin, it could be five or six sticks they break.
For the people that get beaten it means that after a while, the shoulders swell up and the skin breaks and you start to bleed. When you bleed, it means they don’t hit you on the shoulders anymore, they hit you in the belly. You sit facing the room and the guy is hitting you in the belly like he’s playing baseball.
At first, I thought this can’t be real. It was like some crazy movie. But after six months, I was still alive – surprised but happy to be alive. It was an experience that was completely new to me because I was always a melancholic depressive when I was young. I was like, why did my mother have me? How much less suffering would it have been if she had aborted me when I was born?
After six months at that place, I realised it is actually a miracle that I am still alive. Wow it is great; there’s the sun out there and I can breath. I have to ask my senpai each day if I can take a pee but, at the end of the day, I can even take a pee here. Isn’t that wonderful?
https://antaiji.org/en/essays/1-13/
Oh because of my age I would get an afternoon nap. That’s cool. Where do i sign up ? Lol
Sat/lah
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Sorry, that probably refers to Ordination age, i.e., seniority by Ordination time. You would still be at the bottom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich
By the way, I know you have an interest in Korean Zen. Korean Rinzai sesshin are about as intense. They go for a week without sleeping ...
Gassho, JQuote:
During yongmaeng chôngjin, the monks in meditation hall do not sleep for seven
straight days, breaking from their practice only for meals. They even skip the
dinner ritual in the main Buddha hall so as to devote themselves completely to their
meditation. In this intensive period, the monks face one another in two separate
rows down the middle of the meditation hall, rather than facing away as they
usually do. ... Otherwise the meditation sessions take place pretty much as
always, with fifty-minute sitting periods followed by ten minutes of walking. But if
the succentor feels people are tiring, he might quicken the pace to twenty-five
minutes sitting followed by five minutes walking, walk for longer periods, or try
any number of other stratagems to keep his charges vibrant (or at least awake).
Other than its obvious interminableness, the major difference between
yongmaeng chôngjin and regular meditation periods is that the large warning stick
(changgun chukpi) is in use constantly throughout each sitting period....
If the drowsy monk does not react to the guard's presence, the guard taps
him on the shoulder with the stick and gives him one round of blows.
As grueling as yongmaeng chôngjin might seem to the uninitiated, its purpose is
not to torture the monks. Rather it provides an incredibly intense, but still carefully
controlled, environment in which to meditate. The hope is that several days of
sleeplessness will apply enough pressure on the meditators that they will be able to
have a genuine breakthrough into their meditation topics, or hwadu ("critical
phrase" [of a Koan, such as "MU"]). Just before yongmaeng chôngjin begins, the Son master tries to impress
upon the meditators that the only way they will be able to survive the week is to
remain concentrated at all times on their hwadu and to arouse the sensation of
doubt. From my own experience, the sheer enormity of the task of remaining
awake for seven straight days was enough to frighten me into focussing on the
hwadu, as if I were clinging to it for dear life. The instant the mind wavers, you are
bludgeoned by bone-numbing fatigue, so the only hope you have of getting through
the week is to maintain your concentration.
... I remember several times being
totally confused as to whether the guard carrying the stick was actually
hitting me, or whether I was dreaming the whole thing. During walking
meditation I might as well have been walking in space, so ungrounded
and amorphous did I feel. I was not alone in that. During one walking
session, one of the other monks fell asleep while rounding the corner of
the room and walked straight through one of the wood-and-paper doors
along the side of the hall. He was rudely awakened as he toppled onto the
wooden veranda outside. At the end of the retreat when we were finally
allowed to sleep, I collapsed at my seat, utterly exhausted. Although we
were supposed to awaken at three in the morning to begin anew our reg- ular meditation schedule, I could not be roused. The monks left me laid out on my cushion and sat and walked around me. It was not until just
before the late-morning meditation period began at eight that I finally
awoke. Fortunately, in subsequent retreats my practice had matured to the point where I could maintain extended periods of concentration on
the hwadu. Then it really was quite remarkable how effective—even al- most refreshing, in a bizarre sort of way—such intensive practice could
be.
https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/buswell-experience.pdf
STLah
Maybe that’s in Korea. The American version is watered down with 6 hours sleep and the stick is voluntary. But usually welcomed
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I find that the Buddha pointed towards the middle way for a reason. From my own perspective, extremes aren't what the Buddha taught, and having to defecate on a zafu after sitting for 15 hours with almost nothing else to do sounds extreme. That's not to say that I am against retreats with many hours of sitting, I am sure that the zazen that is good for nothing sinks even further into your marrow, but one must be able to go to the bathroom if needed, since we are humans after allgassho2
Gassho, Tomás
Sat
This discussion reminds me of why I found The Three Pillars of Zen to be such a turn off. Different strokes for different folks but I don’t feel that this sort of intensity is necessary.
I agree there is benefits to sitting long but pooping on the Zafu? [toomuch]
gassho2
Tairin
Sat today and lah
From what I understand from reading the long multipart memoir on the Antaiji website, "In my Teacher's House", those extreme experiences as the Rinzai monestary were part of his "searching" days. Now it seems he is talking about coming full circle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tairin
I know the Zazen sessions as Antaiji seem extreme to us but definetly a middleway in relation to Zafu pooping or extreme astecism (think emaciated Buddha).
Hopefully I can share a more informed opinion about their style of practice once the snow melts and I make it up the mountain to Pioneer Valley Zendo for a Zazenkai. 1/2 a day I think I am up for. A five day Sesshien there, not likely. ;)
Gassho,
Greg
STlah
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Personally, I get carried away with my posting. I love my Sangha and what it has done for me--my last post of the day. Too many words. Treeleaf has taught me a tradition starting in China, carried out in Japan with master Dogen. I have been reading master Hongzhi who brought in Yin Yang and taught others to let the self drop away. I am grateful that after 7 years something makes some sense. Let us practice acceptance. That's what I am trying to do. Perhaps, the Buddha saw loving kindness and advised I find ways to make myself a more loving and kind person.
Gassho
sat/lah
Good thread!. Foxholes can be calming too, even if that's hard to believe.
I'd have to say,the older I get the more I see that zazen is koan, and words are a poor seconds for emotion .
Thankyou jundo for this way of method acts. It seems to be working ��
Leah
SatToday
Happy lunar new year!
So,I just realised this is like "buddha-way is not difficult, it merely needs you to not pick-and-choose", mirror mind sutra.
Gassho,
SatToday,
LaH.
Muho's story reminds me a bit of some of the more old school martial arts teachers I've encountered. I'm a zen newbie, but have been around Japan and have seen similar approaches in arts and business. Training karate here in Japan 25 years ago my teacher would sometimes have us do some rather stupid things (injuries resulted), and recall our common calligraphy teacher, who was around 80 at the time, ex-WWII pilot, telling the karate teacher he was missing the point of practice and doing a disservice to the students. More reasons why I appreciate Jundo.
Gassho,
Chris
sat
... Just don't ask me to teach you either Karate or calligraphy! [monk]Quote:
More reasons why I appreciate Jundo.
Gassho, J
STLah
I get a better beating on the zafu than I ever did in the karate dojo, so thank you!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jundo
Gassho,
Chris
Hi Andrew,Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewH
Please do not worry about making progress or seeing changes. Just sit and keep letting go of thoughts (as described in "opening the hand of thought" book). The moment you notice you are thinking, let go of the thought train and continue to just sit. That's all there is to it. The changes will come. Just have faith.
Also in a way there's nothing to change. There is nothing wrong about how we are. Nothing to be fixed. The "change" (if any) is to come to the understanding that nothing needs to change about us.
The attitude towards the practice is less of "self improvement" and more of an "offering to all beings". Something we do to benefit all beings. As our bodhisattva vows say, we vow to free all beings. Even though you may not understand it now, please do the practice as an offering to all beings.
It is okay even if you approach it as a "self-improvement" for now. Just continue to sit and have faith it works. It will all be fine
Gassho,
Sam
STLah
Boy, Sam, your expressing is very nice, and you (truly) have changed and improved in your understanding since the old days, years ago, when we used to wrestle about this! gassho2 Lovely!Quote:
Originally Posted by shikantazen
But, of course, even though Zazen is not about "self-improvement," we do as we can not to fall into or wallow in things like anger, excess desire, jealousy and the like. We wish to live gently, as we can. And as we sit, in equanimity and not clinging to thoughts and emotions, a certain "illumination" of wisdom does begin to shine through this chaotic world ...
... which is a definite change and improvement in how we see things! :encouragement:
Gassho, Jundo
STLah
Thanks Jundo. I agree, I spent a lot of time not understanding how to practice. For me "change" started happening with two things. Starting to work with a teacher and sitting sesshins. I think these are very important. I sat daily for 3-4 years but nothing seemed to happen till I started sitting those multi day sesshins and started working with a teacher.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jundo
By change, I can see I am able to deal with my anger much better, am more kinder and have more presence during the day. Above all, being able to do the practice more for practice's sake rather than expecting any benefit.
Gassho,
Sam
STLah
I sit almost everyday for at least 1/2 hour with someone. Have done for years. Sam talks about working with a teacher. Not sure in South Dakota! My wife might drive me to Sioux Falls to work with Zen teachers who come from Minneapolis each moth or two. Not to sure this would help Shikantaze. I've relied on videos, comments on the Forum. That's what I will continue to do. What do you think Jundo?
Gassho
sat/ lah
Sit where you can, sit many places, but always sit right where you are in this moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tai Shi
Gassho, J
STLah
Have you read 'Eat, Sleep, Sit'? It's an account of what goes on in Eihei-Ji from the perspective of a Novice monk, and it's really not far off the kind of things Muho experienced in the Rinzai temple. Beatings, being worked so hard and fed so little you barely function, no washing for weeks on end, wetting yourself, being made to sit in Seiza for hours as punishment for dropping a chopstick and so on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregor
I don't think these situations are related to Buddhism or part of 'learning our traditions' in any way, rather, in my view the people carrying out this kind of institutionalised hazing are absolutely not being kind, empathetic or caring to their victims. This goes against what I feel is a core part of our attitude and approach to life.
I suspect this stuff is a function of what happens when you have a large group of young men and give some of them responsibility (or, power) over another subsection of young men. Simply because it was done to them, they continue it. This is a cycle that can be broken..
I don't think it's necessary at all. I would even go further and say that it's against what we (as a group) should stand for, and such practice in our temples should be stopped. The people who behave like this, or promote this kind of thing should be removed from our tradition and prevented from continuing this 'legacy' entirely. The abbot at the time was Rempo Niwa, who transmitted Nishijima Roshi (so, this stuff is directly in the Treeleaf lineage) and I feel the abbot is ultimately responsible for what happens to the novice monks at his temple. There is no way he didn't know this was going on. How can we reconcile this?
Gassho,
./sat+lah
Neil
It is Japanese 'Samurai' culture, not limited to the monastery, and happens with high school baseball teams and new company employees sometimes, even elementary schools.Quote:
Originally Posted by houst0n
https://savvytokyo.com/bullying-japanese-schools/
Actually, my understanding is that the situation, even in the monasteries, has changed quite a bit since the 70s and 80s, which has even led the 'old school, old timers,' to be heard complaining about how "soft and needing of pampering is this generation.' As you may have seen, we even have a monk friend in a Japanese monastery who recently got in trouble for being too hard in scolding someone verbally in the monastery.
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...l=1#post297559
All I can say that it is not unlike college fraternity/army boot camp thinking. When Niwa Zenji was head of the monastery in the 70s, raised as he was before WWII, it was more acceptable than now. Different times. Niwa himself was a very soft individual, described as flowerlike (his pen name as a poet and painter was actually "plum flower"), and Nishijima described a very grandmotherly personality, so I do not think that Niwa was personally that kind of "samurai."
Gassho, J
STLah