Yep, me too. :)
Gassho, J
SatTodayLah
Printable View
Many thanks for the cloud reference and seeing through them at some point in practice. I cannot say I see through them completely quite yet, but I do have an appreciation now as to the clouds and crystal clear blue luminescent sky co existing! It brings joy!
Sat2daymanyX's
In Sincerity
Shane
I've been sitting regularly (missing a few days) for a month now, and I'm finding I still have a bit of trouble with breathing. I reviewed the Sit-a-Long about breath (here) to help me but I think I could use a tiny bit more advice.
I keep catching myself taking such shallow breaths that I'm barely breathing at all. Ideally I should just let those breaths be short, but honestly it feels like I'd just stop breathing entirely. My body doesn't really appreciate that, so I start intentionally taking very deep breaths. Maybe it's the rush of oxygen, or endorphins or something, but it just feels so much better to breathe very deeply and slowly, but that unfortunately takes a bit of intention. Any specific advice here?
Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today
As far as I can tell, yes! I try to envision a rope pulling my head up directly above and the rest of my body following suit, then relaxing the rest of my body as if it were "hanging" off of my now-straightened spine. I of course also do the rocking back and forth to make sure that "up" is actually up. Once in awhile I notice I am slouching a little and correct it, but it never feels like a major adjustment. Even then, I could be doing something a little wrong, like leaning forward or back unintentionally or my spine not actually really being straight despite it feeling like it is.
Gassho
Kenny
Sat Today
Hmmm. I would just say to be breathing from the diaphram all through Zazen. It is natural that, as one relaxes, the breaths become slower and lighter. Sometimes it seems that I might breathe less than twice a minutes.
However, are you actually then gasping for breath, and feel like you are holding your breath in a pool? Or is it only that you suddenly focus on your breath and panic or become obsessed with it a bit? If the latter, it is just your mind. If the former, it is actually a physical breath issue.
Just relax and breathe. Normal, natural breathing. You do it all day, sitting or standing, so what is different now? There should be nothing different about breathing in Zazen and just breathing while sitting, so I am not sure what could be causing this. It should be the same as breathing while on the sofa or breathing on the bus.
Gassho, Jundo
SatTodayLAH
Hmmm, hard to say then. It might be that, as if one sloaches it can interfer with the abdomen.
Maybe try and experiment and keep an eye on your shoulders. Once you move from side to side to find your alignment, roll your shoulders back, dropping your shoulder blades. This can help straighten the spine, but also open the chest. Give it a try and see if it helps with the breathe.
This again is not the normal procedure, but jist rather a test to see if your situation is related to posture. =)
Gassho
Shingen
Sat/LAH
The sensation I get is that my body is becoming so calm and still that my lungs are unfortunately following suit and trying to be as still as possible. There's no gasping for breath, more of just a feeling of "hey, doofus, you stopped breathing, I need air". Perhaps I'm being too intentional in becoming calm so it's causing my body to act unnaturally, but at some kind of subconscious level, because I'm definitely not intentionally trying to take shallow breaths. I will try out your suggestions and report back after a few days. Thanks for the help!
Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today
Yes, just sit like you are on the bus watching the scenery out the window. Nothing strange should happen to the breath.
Gassho, J
STLAH
Kenny! Thanks for bringing this up! I often have the same experience when sitting. My respirations seem to become so calm I am almost startled and wondering if I'm getting enough oxygen.
I work in healthcare and monitor things like this on a regular basis. I have not counted my own respirations while meditating as it is a very innacurate thing to do and would defeat the purpose of sitting.
Sat2day
In Sincerity
Shane
I have never heard of anyone becoming so slow in breathing during Shikantaza as to actually become oxygen deprived, let alone pass out or do some damage. There may be Indian and other forms of intense meditation where something like that could happen, but Shikantaza is so ordinary and gentle ... I can't imagine. The body would really let you know ... by gasping, by headache or light headedness, feeling like fainting ... if you truly were becoming oxygen deprived. You should just be breathing like you are sitting on the bus looking out the window at passing scenery, i.e., normally.
It is sounding to me most likely that you guys are just latching on to this and maybe talking yourself into it. However, if there really are some physical symptoms of oxygen deprivation, that is a different story.
The only other thing I can think of (and I am reaching here) is someone who suffers from sleep apnea. That should be checked by a doctor if you think it a possibility. I am finding some small amount of discussion online of that (and, in fact, meditation seems to be commonly used as a treatment for apnea, although I do not know a lot about it). This fellow is discussing what seems to be an intense form of Kundalini meditation ...
In the case of anything like that, talk to your doctor! However, Shikantaza is very far from any kind of intense meditation like that.Quote:
The other cause is called “central,” in which the cessation of breathing is caused because the brain doesn’t to send the message to breathe. As far as I know, when the oxygen-carbon dioxide balance gets bad enough, the brain eventually restarts the breathing. Talk to your doctor.
I had been meditating for years with no difficulties even though having both obstructive and central sleep apnea, fortunately mild. I had never heard of kundalini in either the Shaivist or Thelemite forms, so when its physical symptoms started while in meditation one day, I was startled and stopped the process. Once started, Kundalini never stops, and sometimes takes years to complete because it seems to involve a complete rebuilding of the autonomic nervous system.
...
My doctor was of no help. He sent me to a specialist who refused to listen to my symptoms, and to another who simply dismissed them. Eventually two doctors diagnosed it as atrial fibrillation, but it was anomalous because the shaking happened only when I was asleep, and by the time I awoke enough to start a recording device the shaking stopped. I could stop the shaking by taking 20 deep breaths, by massaging my carotid artery (not a good idea, because it could dislodge plaque which might cause a stroke) or by taking a deep breath and “bearing down” this latter is a known technique called the Valsalva maneuver.
The symptoms have abated over time, and their severity has lessened to a moderate shaking which no longer upsets me. It happens now about three times a week. My current doctors insist that it’s not atrial fib, but have given me no other diagnosis. Otherwise I’m fine. I meditate now only while sitting up so that my relaxed jaw does not obstruct my airways. And yoga Nidra? Forget it!
So, if you snore, and especially if you stop breathing while you sleep, I suggest that you be most careful in your meditations, and do not attempt yoga Nidra.
https://tedmacgillivray.com/2012/09/...eally-careful/
Gassho, J
STLAH
Yes, in Shikantaza we are not searching for something or chasing a curtain state or mind or being.
Calmness is not the only condition that can arise in zazen, other conditions can arise as well. However, in zazen all is whole and complete regardless of what condition maybe present. One state of mind or being is not better or worse then the other. Being open and accpeting of all conditions of life allows allow for moments of kensho to arise naturally. =)
Gassho
Shingen
Sat/LAH
Shingen: I sat a few times now, and I am definitely seeing benefits from lowering the shoulders and pushing them back slightly, and even more if I intentionally stick out my chest a little bit. I still take very shallow breaths when I'm not paying attention, but I never get the sensation that I'm running out of air. Thanks for the tip!
Jundo:
That actually sounds pretty sensible to me, so I'm wondering why it's the case! I am still a bit perplexed by the shallow breaths, so I guess I'm relaxing just a bit too much? I can try focusing on my breath a bit more, or "everything and nothing in particular" / "the clear blue sky", which might bring me just enough "presence" to keep my breath a bit more natural and not so shallow. I'll sit on that a bit longer, it could be that I'm just overthinking the shallow breathing and it's not actually getting in the way of anything.Quote:
It is sounding to me most likely that you guys are just latching on to this and maybe talking yourself into it.
Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today
Hey Kenny,
Excellent, I am happy to hear it is providing some help. As Jundo has also mentioned, just find a nice balance of being present with the breath and the posture. Try not to focus too much, but just enough so that you can stay engaged and find that natural place. Keep at it. =)
Gassho
Shingen
Sat/LAH
I have severe Cerebral Palsy. My. body moves almost constantly. However, when I focus on my breath my body becomes still without me trying. If I try to be still, my body starts to move. If I move while doing zazen in my wheelchair I just notice it and gently return my focus to the breath.
Okay all, I haven't posted a lot in tree leaf lately because I have truly been focusing on the hinderances and my other studies and practices.
I have now reached the fourth week of my hinderance practice where I am to focus at least one meditation for the next 7 days on: restlessness, anxiety and worry. The opposite being focus and stillness.
I am reviewing beginner's teaching #11 about the breath and not focusing on it during meditation to sit Zazen. I feel I am now open to getting a little deeper with Shikantaza Zazen now, but still find difficulty in the "just sit" aspect. I am familiar with the Samatha and vipassana meditations and less with appasati and even less with Zazen (other than what I'm learning in here).
Can any of you share your journey about transitioning into Shikantaza Zazen as described in number 11 and the like?
Sat2daymaysitagain
In Sincerity
Shane
Hi Shane,
Shikantaza is not a breath practice (apart from allowing the breath to be deep and natural). It is also a radical allowing of things as they are. One does not beat "restlessness, anxiety and worry" be trying to sweep them away, but rather by radically pay em no nevermind, not being bothered by any condition of life. I posted something else about this to explain ...
We are always trying to "fix" life. The cause of the "restlessness, anxiety and worry" is precisely our dissatisfaction with the state of things, need to fix or resistance to how things are. I am not proposing to wallow in "restlessness, anxiety and worry." Rather, the radical dropping of need to fix ... including to fix anything including some passing "restlessness, anxiety and worry" ... is precisely the contentment that is the cure for "restlessness, anxiety and worry". Rather counter-intuitive, but it works.Quote:
In most forms of Zazen or meditation, there is good and bad, successful and not successful sitting. In Shikantaza, it is impossible by definition to have any bad or unsuccessful sitting. Simply sitting is, ipso facto, success. Good or bad, successful or unsuccessful judgments are washed away in automatic "Good Sitting which is Successful Just By Sitting" (one possible way to translate the meaning of the word "Shikantaza" right there). Unlike most forms of meditation, that means that even those sometime days of angry, confused, cloudy, wallowing in emotions sitting is "good, successful sitting."
However (now the wondrous twist, the tricky catch!), when one truly lets each and every sitting be itself, good and successful just by being itself, there is thus something transcendent of anger, confusion, cloudiness and wallowing simply by letting "anger, confusion, clouds and wallowing" (and all conditions of life) just be "anger, confusion, clouds and wallowing" (and all conditions of life as they are). As strange as it sounds, one is thus "free" of anger, confusion, clouds and wallowing even in the continued presence of anger, confusion, clouds and wallowing, as much as in their absence too. The "anger, confusion, cloudiness and wallowing" is completely transformed in Wisdom and Clarity by our non-resistance and equanimity about even our passing feelings of resistance and lack of equanimity. So long as one is sitting, with the act of sitting as all that is demanded of the act of sitting, this is the universe in fruition.
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...-in-Shikantaza
I am not sure what a "hindrance practice" is. Shikantaza is our "no hindrances even in a world of hindrances" practice.
Gassho, Jundo
SatTodayLAH
I know that you sometimes feel like a broken record, Jundo, but sometimes rereading the "Jundo Classics" will cause something to click in a way it never has before, despite having read it the same way for years. Thanks for your persistence, and patience. :)
Gassho, sat today, lah
Hello all!
I seem to be having some troubles with using ‘Hangouts’. I’m not sure this is the correct thread to be posting this question in, but here goes.
I’ve been a member for a little while now, and manage to attend Zazenkai with my regular sangha often, but in the times in which I cannot attend, or make the drive to temple, I sit by the altar in our home. I wish to sit with this community when doing so, but have troubles with hangouts. I have noticed that there seems to be two sitting schedules on the site, one says Mon-Sunday sittings, and the other is a list that says “Zazen” with... and whoever the respective person is, I’m assuming leading the zazenkai. That being said, I’ve tried sittings from either list, and cannot see, nor hear if I’m in the right place, no bells, and either a blank screen or just myself on screen. I’ve checked the settings of the app on my phone, and it should be working properly, but this still keeps happening. Perhaps someone could help me determine what I’m doing wrong? Thank you so much.
Gassho
合掌
DB
Hello DB,
Are you checking out our Calendar? They have all the sittings and times ... here it is: https://www.treeleaf.org/now/#calendar
If this is not the case and oyu have checked it out, can you PM me and I will help you out. =)
Gassho
Shingen
Sat/LAH
Hiya Shingen,
I have tried sitting with groups from that link as well as the other one that has a green heading, but each to no avail. I’ll try again today at four, and if that doesn’t work I’ll let you know.
Thank you very much.
Gassho
合掌
DB
Hiya Troy,
Yeah, I’ve been trying to sit with any group sitting really for some time, but neither my phone nor computer are working. I don’t think I’ve tried using Chrome on my computer, but I’ll give that a shot first today, and see what happens.
Gassho
合掌
DB
Shingen,
My name is Dale, and here’s the link. :)
https://plus.google.com/113895207268648791993
Called into work? Geezzzz ... don't they know zazen always comes first? LOL =)
No worries, keep at it and let me know what happens. If you and I need to do a test run to make sure all the bells are working, we can do that too. Keep me posted. =)
Gassho
Shingen
Sat/LAH
Jundo, have you considered creating some playlists on YouTube? Would make going from talk to talk a whole lot easer. Other than that nitpicking, this has been fantastic, thank you so much!
edit: Here is a playlist in the meantime if anyone would like it https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...dOg9CsUuYSCtDZ
Thank you for the suggestion.
I would like folks to read the accompanying text explanations for each video, however, and I think that the playlist by itself only gives the video talk without the accompanying written explanation. So, we have this list ...
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...-Begin-Here%21
Gassho, Jundo
STLah
Still having a heck of a time navigating this forum- still, like a blind squirrel, I am occasionally finding the nut! Please forgive me if I post in the wrong place until I get this figured out.
I am up to video 6 of the Intro series. Must stop to comment! These are truly wonderful lessons!!!!! Uniquely so for me. I was one of Fr. Pat Hawk's students in the Zen Desert Sangha in AZ for several years before he passed. I entered that relationship and training on an inner calling but no experience with zen at all. And Roshi's style was indescribably hands-off and yet laser clear in dokusan as I discovered the challenges of zazen. I read many many books, but it was two years in, when in utter frustration, I brought them all in a paper sack to the zendo and donated them. He said, "Good! Now we can begin." Not because I had read enough, but because I saw the futility of intellectualizing and was ready to experience.
All that frustration, and giving up on habitual intellectualizing were for me, a necessary part of the learning how to just sit. Obviously not for everyone, but yes, for me. Your clear and generously well prepared videos complete the picture and clarify the soto tradition more fully. I believe the Diamond Sangha lineage in which I began is somewhat different, though not greatly.
I believe I have stepped in to a manageable new kind of practice here- doing this online. I have not been able to find a "compatible" zen master. I was trained out of all the ideological stuff, the guided meditations, the concepts, the dogmas, and I never found another teacher who could teach with so few words as my skillful first zen master. Perhaps many of us have a hard time finding another teacher if we lose our first one.
I am old enough now that travels and retreat/sesshins are difficult. So I thank you for these wonderful lessons, in which I have learned much already in just 6 video lessons, even after several years of active practice. Once I figure out to navigate this complex forum and website, I'll be up and running and trying to find out how to do a live sit. Now I will proceed with the beginners lessons. And beginning my daily sits at home. My goodness, I have lived long enough to be able to do this! Imagine that.
Gassho
MMorr
You are in JUST the right place. Always so. :)
If you need some help to find your way around the halls and closets of our little electric monastery ...
FEELING LOST AROUND THE COMMUNITY? Contact our "SANGHA BUDDHIES"
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...ANGHA-BUDDHIES
Gassho, J
SatTodayLAH
I found this thread this morning after yoga class. There has been difficulties with my practice in zazen. I am attending a kundalini yoga class that's run by my friend Jitendradas. The aim is to help me not master yoga, but to help me be determined to wake up in the morning and exercise. I am hoping I will learn in Shikantaza what do do about falling asleep all the time this year.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The 6th video has been a real mind-opener because it was something I didn't quite understand. In my mind and daily life both sides of the same coin clashed sometimes because I didn't know how to unify them. Your insightful video also reminded me of a part of Mumon's verse found below the koan Pai Chang's Fox:
Not falling, not evading--
two faces of the same die.
Not evading, not falling--
a thousand mistakes, ten thousand mistakes.
Quoted from The Gateless Barrier (Robert Aitken)
Thank you for sharing.
Gassho
Kakedashi
SatToday
Just watched first video for beginners. The best explanation/demonstration of what meditation is all about that I have ever heard.
Thank You.
Thank you so much for this teaching series! I'm on either 5 or 6 and find them both informative and also rather entertaining! Well thought out and the message sticks! I look forward to learning with you all and sitting together!
Just finished the Beginner’s Series. I’ve sat everyday since I joined Treeleaf in January, but not everyday I’ve watched and read the series (sometimes I forgot, sometimes I was in a hurry so just sat).
Thank you for this, Jundo. I second Landrew: it is the best explanation of zazen I’ve encountered.
Gassho,
Mateus
Sat today
Hello all! I do have a question about my home "Zendo."
I do not have a room I can dedicate fully to my Zen practice. I kind of just use a small area in a corner of my den. Unfortunately it is a bit messy in there as we haven't been able to find good places yet to get everything unpacked and cleaned up, so this makes for even less space. When I walk around the contour of the room, does this even include walking around the contour left by the current cluttered state of the room?
Also, a question about my zafu. My zafu doesn't have its own place where it stays. For now I keep it under my altar table so my cat can't lay on it or puke on it. I also hope this will keep the dog from peeing on it if the dog is misbehaving. That said, will this be ok, or will I have to adjust that? I tend to either sit in front of my altar or I move the zafu to a blank wall and then sit. Are there any suggestions for how I could do this in a more proper way, taking my situation into account?
Hey Victor,
When you walk around the clutter, when you walk around the contour of the tiny room, you are walking around the universe. We practice in all areas of life, whether big or small, it is all good practice. =)
As for the zafu, life can brings ups and downs; accidents and the like ... even to our zafus. But we do try our best to take care and maintain them as best we can. Where ever you sit, that is the place for your zafu. In time you will have a dedicated place, but if in the meantime you need to move it about to care for it ... that is all good. =)
Gassho
Shingen
Sat/LAH