Zendo difficulties

Hello ! Today i decided to go to my local zendo again. I stopped 1 year ago because it was too difficult : i spent most of the 1h30 of zazen struggling with anxiety, which i dont have at all when i practice alone. The session over, i was exhausted. Wanted to give it another try today : well, the same thing happened. Im sad about it cause on one hand i want to practice with others, but on the other hand when i do it it feels like pure masochism... I'm totally unable to let go or to relax and just spend the time fighting, even with relaxing ! It is strange because, again, it does not happen when i practice on my own. I don't know if i'm feeling trapped or stuck with the rituals and the long sitting times, but i feel it is too much struggle for nothing. In the end, i manage to do it, but at a price.

If you want a small description of what happens inside me when practicing in group : "damn i'm so anxious. Man you know it's just bullshit. Just let go. Ok follow your outbreath. Aaaaaaaah. Damn i feel like i'm falling what is that ! Oh my god i'm so tense again ! Relax man, just relax, it's nonsense. Why are you putting yourself through this ? Damn i feel so bad, i thought my practice was okay but i'm totally unable to relax. Ah there it goes, just let go. Damn i feel spaced out what is that" On, and on, and on, for the 1h30. When i'm alone none of this happens. Basically, non stop self consciousness and self bashing with stupid thoughts that i cannot control or stop. I don't even try to.

Any thoughts or advice ? I will of course continue practicing alone !

If you are not having an all out panic attack, then it sounds like an excellent opportunity for practice! Do they have other less formal times that you can go to practice, such as a weeknight sitting group or something? That might be a better way to ease yourself into it.

Gassho,
Steven

Nah, i'm not having a panic attack ; i sort of know this is just bullshit and let it pass, but i still can't relax and end up exhausted because my body is all tense and i suffer a lot. Their sittings are always the same : 40 mins zazen, 10 mins kihin, 40 mins zazen, chanting.

What is frustrating is that when i'm alone, again, zazen is so cool and relaxed compared to this !

I don't know if i should struggle again and again with this and keep on fighting, or just do something else with my time...

Gassho,

Ugrok

I know the feeling. The worst for me was allergy season when I spent the whole sit trying to keep breathing without distracting everyone around me with my constant sniffling sounds. Quiet sniffling can sound so LOUD in zazen. I think most of us get in the habit of putting on additional layers when we interact with other people. When others are watching, we feel like we have to watch how we present ourselves and worry about how we will be perceived.

I think that's why in the zendo, they encourage us beginners to face the wall. We're looking inward, not outward, but eventually that opens up and the distinction is dropped. Then we're all just sitting alone together in the reality of the situation. Usually though it's the same old worries, tensions, frustrations, anxieties, joys, hopes, depressions, suppressed coughs, quiet coughs, tilts, wobbles, and on and on. So, I don't think what you're feeling is unusual. I'm starting over again myself and feel much the same anxiety. So I just sit with it. Anxiously, at least until the label falls off the can and I realize there's no soup inside.

Also, I don't know the rules at your zendo, but the center I attended allowed folks to enter the zendo starting at the second sitting (immediately after kinhin) if they didn't feel up to the entire session. The long sits can definitely seem harder, especially if you go to sesshin; talk about being bored out of my mind (though that's somewhat the point. :) )

-Dan

Thanks for your kind words, it's -oh selfish me - good to hear that i'm not alone in that boat, ahah !

Nah, i don't think i can enter at the second sitting (i did not ask, though). Anyway, for me, the second sitting is easier than the first, for some mysterious reason. But indeed, it is long, especially since i practice in full lotus, which gives me no pain when practicing home for 20-30 minutes, but is becoming quite difficult beyond that point. Maybe i should experiment with other postures for the zendo, even if i don't like the feeling of those...

What i would love would be an "open" zendo, in which i could go whenever i wanted and practice freely - with others or not - instead of practicing at my own place. That would be great !

I can't help but feel some deep respect for people going into sesshin. I don't know if i could.

Personally, I was only (somewhat) comfortable in the long sessions when I sat seiza. I used the zafu rather than the bench, though, as I was too embarrassed to take one out (silly, right?) I definitely had issues with pain in the legs, as well as tension in the back and spasms in the muscles after the first 30 minutes or so, but it did get better with practice. Zazen isn't really relaxing or easy, but it's not really frustrating or hard, either; it just is what it is. Longer sittings seem harder, but can also help open up more space in time to get past the seeming into the essential. I wouldn't take what I say too seriously though, as I've essentially spent the last several years feigning a semblance of not paying attention.

- Dan

Hi Ugrok,

It seems to me you think too much when you are in a group and are very concerned of the whole experience. This creates anxiety and over thinking the whole thing.

I'm not an expert, but it could be useful if you go and sit zazen at a public space. And by that I mean to sit zazen while you are sitting at a coffee shop having coffee or sitting in a park bench. Just sit like anyone would do and do zazen. You'll be surrounded with people and you can see if it's regular people or the ones on the zendo who make you anxious.

See how you feel. If anxiety arises, just acknowledge but don't comment on it, just let it pass. It's hard, I know, but doable. You just have to be mindful of the experience dropping judgements.

I think that with practice and time, you'll eventually be able to get back to the group and kick everyone's arse... er... scratch that... you'll eventually be able to sit with them with no anxiety at all.

But that's just an idea.

Gassho,

Kyonin

Thanks for the advice, Kyonin !

Thing is, i do this all the time ! I sit in parks, i sit on benchs in the street, i even sit in churchs, i sit in my local library, etc... I love it and have no problem doing this as long as no one knows what i am doing and that i am free of stopping whenever i want. Thanks for pointing that out, it did not cross my mind. It seems to me that i put a lot of pressure on myself with sitting in the zendo, with experienced practicioners (i mean, it's ridiculous : i am even anxious hours before going to the zendo !). Maybe because i think i HAVE TO DO IT RIGHT since we're in a zendo, we cannot leave, people around me know how to do it right, things have to be done right... It's a lot of pressure, now that i think about it. The only fact that i cannot get up and leave if i want to is quite difficult to accept. I know that, in my life, a lot of pressure and anxiety comes from the fear of not being capable of doing stuff and being badly judged as a consequence of this ; i was like this in school when i was a kid. Don't know if i should force myself to go through this or not. I love sitting zazen and i would love to be able to do it "normally" with other people. I'm at a point in my day to day, alone practice, where i feel the need to stop just doing this for myself and do it with others.

Thanks for the idea.

Gassho,

Ugrok

Ugrok,

Social anxiety is very common and about 8% of the population has it. There is variability in the degree of impairment it causes. Zazen has helped quite a bit in addressing my own difficulties with social anxiety. :)

Gassho, Jishin

Hi Jishin,

Yeah, i know about that. I don't think i have "social anxiety". I practice aikido a lot, i have friends, i don't fear people at all - i love most of the people i meet. It's really about certain situations more than people, i guess. In general, situations in which i feel i have to do right, and in which i feel kind of "stuck" or forced to do stuff right without any choice. Of course, it has to do with how the people here look at me, but only in certain situations. When i mess up completely in aikido, in front of everyone, i just laugh like everyone else and have no problem with that. For some reason, it seems i cannot have that perspective in the zendo ! It all seems so serious and rigid... It reminds me of another situation which is giving talks (i have to do that often in my work). Except that when giving talks, i feel anxious, but it fades away as soon as i begin speaking ; and i love doing it. While doing zazen with others, i'm just stuck with my own created and irrational anxiety and can't do anything with it. But oh well, i did not die, and i think i'll try to keep sitting with it in the zendo and see where it leads.

Have you ever tried sitting the Zazenkai live with the webcam on, or on one of the Google+ meetups that TL members have? Maybe that would be an in-between thing, not alone yet not physically in a group? Just wondering.

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"damn i'm so anxious. Man you know it's just bullshit. Just let go. Ok follow your outbreath. Aaaaaaaah. Damn i feel like i'm falling what is that ! Oh my god i'm so tense again ! Relax man, just relax, it's nonsense. Why are you putting yourself through this ? Damn i feel so bad, i thought my practice was okay but i'm totally unable to relax. Ah there it goes, just let go. Damn i feel spaced out what is that" ... people around me know how to do it right, things have to be done right... It's a lot of pressure

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Hi Ugrok,

Well, this is your Koan. Where does this anxiety lie (or whatever it is) as you describe, and who imposes such on you?? (My too simple answer: Mostly between your ears, and you do. YOU are exhausting yourself!). A lot of thoughts and judgments above of your own making. That does not mean that the sensations you are feeling are not terrible and real to you, and that does not mean that there is not some condition which is causing them. It simply means that, from a Buddhist perspective, we try to recognize all these thoughts and emotions as a kind of "mind theatre", and not buy into them.

Here is some information on the "Mind Theatre" and our "Nurturing Seeds" Practice to try to replant these seeds of thoughts and emotions with more healthful ones.

RECOMMENDED DAILY Nurturing Seeds PRACTICE
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...Seeds-PRACTICE

Now, that being said, anxiety is very real (I am not sure that is what you are describing but believe me, I know first hand, and struggled for years with shyness in groups and other kinds of anxiety. Not so much now, thanks in large part to this wonderful Zen Path). We have had some threads before about folks wrestling with anxiety, which may be a bit different, but the advice applies too (I will post part at the bottom of this message, just change the subject to what you are feeling and same advice applies, whatever it is that is causing tension and exhaustion in the face of the Zendo procedures and ritual) ... A Message for All Folks: DO get some help if seriously interfering with life from a professional in overcoming social or other anxiety, depression or other conditions like it, which help can go hand-in-hand with your Shikantaza Practice.

As I describe below: (1) Feeling something negative and, (2), pouring gasoline on the situation by flogging yourself for feeling that, are not the same. Just Sit As What Is.

Gassho, Jundo

PS

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What i would love would be an "open" zendo, in which i could go whenever i wanted and practice freely - with others or not - instead of practicing at my own place. That would be great !

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Well, I believe that when you came to Treeleaf you might have found such a place! :p

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(THE FOLLOWING IS ABOUT "PANIC DISORDER", BUT APPLIES TO EQUIVALENT SITUATIONS TOO)

I would say that if a "panic attack" happens once in awhile, and is not (however unpleasant) severely threatening or interfering with your life, you may wish to just let it pass as you describe. As you wrote:

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I'm sitting there, letting it do it's thing, being curious and gentle with myself, and it.... wanes after about 5 minutes. Amazing. My heard it still racing, the adrenaline is still shaking me, but my head is wrapped around 'it.' I get back up, reset the timer, and sit back down. I get up after my 30, a little shaken, and resume my day as normal.

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If it happens during a sitting, we sit with it ... breathe through it ... or break off the sitting if too much. All of that is Shikantaza.

We all suffer episodes of panic from time to time. Your being in a life transition now is a time of great stress, insecurity and worry. However, if the panic is to the point of being seriously interfering with life, you may wish to seek professional attention for it. Below is what I usually say:

...


Even if not persistent and disabling "panic attacks" like some of the folks here, almost all of us can speak of times of fear and anxiety and cold sweat ... sometimes great anxiety and "what if's" flooding the head. That is natural, human, hard wired into our animal brains.

As some have said above, when feeling panic, just feel panic. Let it be, it is just what is in that moment.

Try to recall, if you can in the heat of things, that it is merely the staging of mind created theatre that is happening in that moment ... a show on a theatre stage your head is writing ... and just feel panic if panic there is. When in panic, be a Panic-Buddha. When in Panic ... Just Panic Panic Panic!

There is a difference between (1) feeling panic, just letting the panic move through you, accepting that that is how one feels in that moment, and (2) feeling panic, and then adding self-loathing, "wish it were not so" thoughts, resistance, "this is the way it will always be, no escape from this black hole" thoughts, and the like on top of the panic. The latter are extraneous, more fuel poured on the fire. Remove the resistance and the fire itself may lose much of its heat.

If you just accept that your heart is beating 200 beats a minute ... and just allow that fact, relax into it ... good chance the beats will slow down.

As in Ai-ki-do (my wife's a practitioner) ... sometimes we conquer by yielding and letting an attack move past, not by directly resisting head on.

Anyway, that is how I seek to experience the little "theatre scenes" of fear ... and all the other "junk in the attic" of the head like glumness, depression, anger, worry and the like that naturally arise in any human mind. These too shall pass ... open the grip of thoughts and emotions in the head, and they will fall away.

(I do not wish to contradict any expert advice by true specialists on Panic disorders, however. So, do what they advice first.) But the following is my typical response to someone sitting Zazen together with some other issues requiring outside counseling or medication ...

Our emphasis here is on Shikantaza ... which may be said to be "being one" with what ails one, although not necessarily a cure for what ails one. HOWEVER, that "being one" with life ... can relieve much suffering in life. It is a strange thing ... we do not sit Shikantaza to be "better" or to make life "other than as it is" ...

... Yet, in the very stillness of letting life be "as is it" and embracing all of life ... and in dropping the hard borders and divisions between our "self" and the world ... this practice does thereby leave almost all people better ... and often does work an effective cure (or is one helpful part of the cure) ... from depression, stress, addiction, compulsive disorders, eating disorders, anger issues, self loathing ... you name it.

We do emphasize mindfulness of our thoughts and emotions ... but not as a form of meditation. However, our Zazen is the radical non-doing of Shikantaza, and the "mind theatre" and tricks and games of the human mind is something that naturally we also become better able to recognize and avoid from sitting.

... I suspect that Shikantaza ... in its quietness, in the total stillness and acceptance ... would be something helpful with what you describe ...

Zazen is -NOT- a cure for many things ... it will not fix a bad tooth (just allow you to be present with the toothache ... you had better see a dentist, not a Zen teacher), cure cancer (although it may have some healthful effects and make one more attune to the process of chemotherapy and/or dying), etc. Zen practice will not cure your acne on your face, or fix your flat tire. All it will do is let one "be at one, and whole" ... TRULY ONE ... with one's pimples and punctured wheel, accepting and embracing of each, WHOLLY WHOLE with/as each one. There are many psychological problems or psycho/medical problems such as alcoholism that may require other therapies, although Zen can be part of a 12-Step program or such (a few Zen teachers in America with a drinking problem had to seek outside help). My feeling is that some things are probably best handled by medical, psychological or psychiatric treatment, not Zen teachers.

My feeling is that receiving outside treatment, medication AND "just sitting" can all work together.

Walking this path long enough ... we will also come to places where there is NO FEAR at all, no one to be afraid and no object of fear. There is a realm beyond any possible place to fall or be lost. If anyone has been walking this path long enough, they will have some familiarity with such Fearless Place. Have no doubt.

Of course, that does not mean that, in this life, we will always be free of fear for it is hardwired into our little brains. If I see a hungry tiger in my path, I may break into a sweat and run for the hills!

But a funny thing that can result is an experience of feeling fear ... while being totally free of any fear ... ALL AT ONCE. Fear and fearlessness, as one. Most folks who have been on this Zen road for awhile will have an understanding of what I mean by that.

Gassho, J

Thanks, Jundo !

I agree with what you wrote here. I suffered from anxiety a long time and not so much nowadays, thanks to zazen and therapy, and i know and read a lot about those issues. What you are saying is spot on in my opinion. But even if things are far better than what they were a few years ago there are situations which are still problematic. This is also why i want to go and confront them, to see what happens.

What is really funny is that when the anxiety is strong, like it was yesterday in the zendo, we really get caught in it ; but there were a few times where i could just see that "hey man, you're not practicing right now, you're just letting yourself being led by your thoughts / emotions !" and i could return for a very brief moment to spacious awareness. But i got caught again and again in thought / emotion. It seems that the stronger the emotion, the harder it is to see it as just a mind play. The stronger the emotion, the stronger we believe in it ! And you also feel it in your body in not so nice ways, so it's really hard to acknowledge that this is just a play. So maybe it is, indeed, a great opportunity to practice and also to learn to be ok with difficult body sensations. But at the same time i can't help but feel a bit disappointed about myself, i really thought it would be easier to return to the zendo since nowadays i tend to do good in situations that were difficult in the past, and, well, it is not easy. It's also surprising to see that zazen is great when alone, and a bit of a little torture with others. So conditioned !

Thanks Nindo for the suggestion, i should try that, but often the hours don't match !

Thank you Jundo, for that lovely post. I could not agree more.

I have always had difficulty with my beliefs about "belonging" - whether it was among colleagues, new friends, or school. I am perceived as very friendly and outgoing, but always beneath the surface was the idea that I was being judged on how I looked, dressed, spoke, and behaved. In my experience, this comes up much more strongly than usual in the Sangha, because we are placed in a situation of extended silence. We have a tendency, I think, to distract ourselves from each other in regular social situations. There is a kind of intimacy in collective sitting that is very confronting - and also very healing.

I am in a foreign country on exchange at the moment, and practicing with the local group here was very frightening for me. Every Zendo has little idiosyncrasies so you are inevitably going to do something improperly. Ugrok, I felt very similar to you sitting there in a brand new city, with people I had met only minutes ago! I could feel my thumbs jamming together and my back attempting to knot itself into a pretzel. I nearly laughed out loud when I realized that I was creating little imaginary puppets of these poor people in my head, attributing to them all sorts of judgments about me that they likely did not have. It is hilarious when we become aware that what we believe others think about us is almost always wrong.

I would urge you to let go of your idea of being too caught up in this stress to sit properly. My rule is that as long as I am sitting properly and have made an honest vow to return my mind to my breath if I find it attaching itself too strongly to the ideas floating by, then I have practiced. There is absolutely something to be learned when we sit in a state of anxiety and struggle the whole time not to wander away with our thoughts.

And the group I am sitting with now? I feel perfectly comfortable practicing Oryoki with them (which really is the true test of intimacy). There's nothing like a bunch of people quietly watching you eat to break down the barriers we seem to have erected in our societies.

I have every faith that your sitting in the Zendo will become less anxious and you will start to miss the discomfort!

Bows and bows,

Yahantei

Thank you very much. Those words are really helpful.

Gassho,

Ugrok

hi Ugrok :) I also suggest the g+ zazen or zazenkai,it's a great way to get comfortable sitting with others. since I'm new to zazen g+ sitting has allowed me to learn by watching/participating and I think because I'm in my own home I'm able to settle down quicker and actually practice as opposed to wrestling with my newbie fears. you could come to the 530am sitting with me and a few others - I bet you would totally relax once you saw my dog and cat trying to crash my sitting.:p

gassho,nandi

Well, i live in France, so i don't know what the time would be here (5 30 am is defintely too early for me, ahahah, i'm a slacker), but it sounds like a good idea indeed !

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Originally Posted by Ugrok

Well, i live in France, so i don't know what the time would be here (5 30 am is defintely too early for me, ahahah, i'm a slacker), but it sounds like a good idea indeed !

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If it is truly important to you, you will get up at 5:30. If not, please stay in bed.

Gassho, J

Indeed.

Anyway, problem solved : i think this zazen happens at 11:30 AM to 12PM, for me, which is perfect ! I'll try to come tomorrow if i manage to make it work. Thanks again.

So many wise things have been said here.

Just to clear something up: Are you really sitting 1.5 hours without any breaks or kinhin in between? If not that may be part of the reason for your distress. Try and take a short break or something similar. That's what I would do. I haven't heard anyone advise that you should sit strictly for that long at a time.

If you can do it that's fine. I was just personally a little alarmed by it.

Be well and god sitting

Gassho
Aske

No, there is a kinhin in the middle!

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Originally Posted by Jundo

If it is truly important to you, you will get up at 5:30. If not, please stay in bed.

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Why do Zen Priests have to be so reasonable about the importance of sitting!? A fellow practitioner at my local Zendo asked a visiting Italian nun how one finds the time to practice every day.

She replied, deadpan, "How do you find the time to eat three times a day?"

How indeed.

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Originally Posted by Yahantei

Why do Zen Priests have to be so reasonable about the importance of sitting!? A fellow practitioner at my local Zendo asked a visiting Italian nun how one finds the time to practice every day.

She replied, deadpan, "How do you find the time to eat three times a day?"

How indeed.

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Hello Yahantel,

Thanks for your reply. =) Also, I was wondering if you could head over to our Greetings by New Folks thread and introduce yourself. This way we can make that human connection. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Ok, well, as a stubborn guy, i went again tonight. Things were a bit better, but still, it's very hard for me to practice "properly". All the guys and girls around end zazen saying stuff like "wow the energy was great tonight" and "i feel so replenished" ; well, honestly, i just feel like shit, an exhausted one even, ahahah. I even got to the point of doubting if i should practice zazen. Which is stupid cause i practiced every day on my own for the last 3 or 4 years without a problem.

Still there were moments when i could stop fighting. But there were also moments where i thought i was about to die or disappear. A strange thing happened : at the end of the second zazen, i was "letting go", and all of a sudden i almost jumped, i felt like an electric shock from the bottom of my spine to the stop, as if someone scared me suddenly, but no one did, of course. But i said "oh well" and it passed.

All this zendo experience show me that i'm not in as a good mental shape as i thought i was. Frankly, there were times when i thought "damn i did not know i was so fearful and depressed", but at the same time, i was also able to just be with that, sit with that, not fight that, so i'll take this as a "mid success". I am resolved to practice in the zendo until i can be at ease. I want to be at ease in life, so i won't stop going to the zendo til i am okay with it. Don't know if it's the good attitude but that's my plan.

Go for it! - but please take care of yourself, too.
gassho1

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Originally Posted by Ugrok

Ok, well, as a stubborn guy, i went again tonight. Things were a bit better, but still, it's very hard for me to practice "properly". All the guys and girls around end zazen saying stuff like "wow the energy was great tonight" and "i feel so replenished" ; well, honestly, i just feel like shit, an exhausted one even, ahahah. I even got to the point of doubting if i should practice zazen. Which is stupid cause i practiced every day on my own for the last 3 or 4 years without a problem.

Still there were moments when i could stop fighting. But there were also moments where i thought i was about to die or disappear. A strange thing happened : at the end of the second zazen, i was "letting go", and all of a sudden i almost jumped, i felt like an electric shock from the bottom of my spine to the stop, as if someone scared me suddenly, but no one did, of course. But i said "oh well" and it passed.

All this zendo experience show me that i'm not in as a good mental shape as i thought i was. Frankly, there were times when i thought "damn i did not know i was so fearful and depressed", but at the same time, i was also able to just be with that, sit with that, not fight that, so i'll take this as a "mid success". I am resolved to practice in the zendo until i can be at ease. I want to be at ease in life, so i won't stop going to the zendo til i am okay with it. Don't know if it's the good attitude but that's my plan.

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Reminds me of my experience learning to drive. I was 16. The instructor took me out in the practice car and, eventually, onto the 10-lane I-95 in Florida ...

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4044/...64e8589b_m.jpg

I was so stressed, worried, gripping the wheel white knuckled. I almost gave up the idea of learning to drive all together.

Then, it took awhile, but I suddenly relaxed and just drove ... alert but not with tension, eyes open watching everything and all things yet with ease. Driving, balanced. Going forward with no place to go, just driving to drive.

Sure, driving down I-95 is still being on the cutting edge of life and death sometimes (literally!) and there have been some close calls and major blow outs out there from time to time (literally ... I have had my share of close calls) ...

Yet, I just drive drive drive, no problem.

Same for me in learning to ride roller coasters, parachute or handle doctors visits and various life emergencies ... just drive drive drive no problem. Balance, open and at ease, alert and ready for whatever comes, yet listening to the tunes on the radio.

Apparently I once said ... I am a very simple headed fellow. I just sit, and such is all the world.

"Energy" great or not ... even feeling "replenished" or not ... this Practice is not really about that. Such is the way to be Replenished with nothing to fill, the "Energy" of a gas tank that is always Full beyond full or empty. :p

Gassho, Jundo

Okay, tonight in the zendo was at the same time worse and better. Worse : my first zazen began quietly, with a bit of the usual anxiety, but all of a sudden i began to HATE everything. Just pure hate coming out of who knows what. I hated being here, i hated the noise, i hated the people, i hated my life, i hated the bell that was not ringing, i hated time not passing, i hated it ALL. I don't think i've ever felt so much hate in my life. It was quite difficult because for a moment i wondered if i was not some kind of sociopath, ahahah. Again this is something that never happened to me while practicing alone. But oh well, it passed and left a more quietous space in which i wondered how i could hate such a beautiful sound as the rain falling on the windows. Was quite interesting in a way to see that i could be in such a place.

Second zazen was more relaxed and filled with smiling faces made of the drippings of the badly painted white wall. It was better, kind of, even if a bit disturbing. At least i had a bit of fun.

Maybe one day all will be "normal", i hope. I still end up quite tired.

Hi Ugrok,

I've had this problem in some local Zen groups. I think the problem is that such groups don't have a positive, relaxed, welcoming atmosphere. New people don't feel welcome and thus you feel self-conscious. That's a problem with the sangha.

When I visit such danghas it feels like one of those parties where you don't anyone, conversation is forced and awkward and you just sit in the corner drinking something.

People underestimate the importance of a healthy, functional sangha. A sangha can have lots of meditation, ritual and such but if the people don't really get along with each other, it's very hollow and empty.

I'm fortunate to have come across a couple, healthy sanghas (Zen and Pure Land) and I can say it makes a big difference.

My personal opinion: keep looking around. Even if you can only visit such a sangha once a year, it is still worth it.

Ugrok, yea just the rain falling on the windows is a beautiful place to be.

Kind regards. /\

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Originally Posted by Ugrok

Okay, tonight in the zendo was at the same time worse and better. Worse : my first zazen began quietly, with a bit of the usual anxiety, but all of a sudden i began to HATE everything. Just pure hate coming out of who knows what. I hated being here, i hated the noise, i hated the people, i hated my life, i hated the bell that was not ringing, i hated time not passing, i hated it ALL. I don't think i've ever felt so much hate in my life. It was quite difficult because for a moment i wondered if i was not some kind of sociopath, ahahah. Again this is something that never happened to me while practicing alone. But oh well, it passed and left a more quietous space in which i wondered how i could hate such a beautiful sound as the rain falling on the windows. Was quite interesting in a way to see that i could be in such a place.

Second zazen was more relaxed and filled with smiling faces made of the drippings of the badly painted white wall. It was better, kind of, even if a bit disturbing. At least i had a bit of fun.

Maybe one day all will be "normal", i hope. I still end up quite tired.

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If this kind of extreme emotional reaction just happens once in awhile ... and MOST IMPORTANTLY! so long as you do not act on the hate and punch out the Teacher or shoot up the Sangha with a semi-automatic ... it is nothing to be concerned about. More of the mind theatre at work, and which you seem to be prone to experience for some reason in these settings. Just recognize the theatre scene as theatre, and let it pass away.

The quiet after the storm which seems to have followed seems much better to me.

Did you read this wonderful article on Zazen?

http://hazymoon.com/articles/the-art-of-zazen/

Gassho, J

Thanks Jundo ! Yes, it is "fleeting", and i totally see it and so am able not to act on it. Still a bit scary though. But it did lead to one "insight" : there really is no point in trying to "fix" stuff during zazen. I clearly saw that, for example, "trying" to relax is just stupid : you relax, but then it gets tense again, then you relax it again... What's the point ? That's tiring for nothing. Better is to let things go their way, which takes trust, but in the end is more... relaxing. I kind of found the point in which you just let things do their things without really caring if it's good or not.
But isn't it dangerous if we begin to think like that in life ? It's as if on one hand, we know we don't have control on stuff, but on the other hand, if we care about the world we should try to do stuff in it. Can we do without "trying to do" ?

Damn i'm all entangled again !

PS : i read the article. It's great !

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ugrok

Thanks Jundo ! Yes, it is "fleeting", and i totally see it and so am able not to act on it. Still a bit scary though. But it did lead to one "insight" : there really is no point in trying to "fix" stuff during zazen. I clearly saw that, for example, "trying" to relax is just stupid : you relax, but then it gets tense again, then you relax it again... What's the point ? That's tiring for nothing. Better is to let things go their way, which takes trust, but in the end is more... relaxing. I kind of found the point in which you just let things do their things without really caring if it's good or not.

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Good. Nothing is more Relaxing than to give up fighting and struggling with the world ... including giving up the fight and struggle to relax! [scared]

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But isn't it dangerous if we begin to think like that in life ? It's as if on one hand, we know we don't have control on stuff, but on the other hand, if we care about the world we should try to do stuff in it. Can we do without "trying to do" ?

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I often say that Zen Practice allows us to live and see life two ways at once, as one ... like seeing one way out of the left eye, one way out of the right eye, with both combined as one the Clear Vision of a Buddha Eye.

We drop all judgments, goals and need to fix while ... simultaneously in another part of ourself ... we have the judgments we need to live in life, the goals worthy of working for, and fix the bad stuff about us and the world in need of fixing. We give up the fight and fight on at once!

One can come to experience life both these ways At Once As One. How? Practice!

Gassho, J

One thing I've noticed is that when I worry less about whether I'm doing things right, I'm more effective at what I'm doing. I don't know if you've ever tried juggling, but once you've found the knack, the juggling almost takes care of itself. Sometimes, though, I start to think "wow, I'm getting good at this"; that's the moment when the balls come crashing down. This practice is like that; I fall down, over and over, then find the rhythm again of effortless efforts. Eventually, even the falling down and returning becomes its own kind of rhythm and the effort of returning to the effortless itself becomes effortless. Then I think "wow, this is effortless" and well, you know what happens...

The art of successful failure is to let every stumble be the shifting of weight that leads naturally to the next step. Every breath out flows naturally to the next breath in. Zazen is just this.

-Dan
Sat (and stumbled) today

Quote:

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Originally Posted by delphizealot

One thing I've noticed is that when I worry less about whether I'm doing things right, I'm more effective at what I'm doing. I don't know if you've ever tried juggling, but once you've found the knack, the juggling almost takes care of itself. Sometimes, though, I start to think "wow, I'm getting good at this"; that's the moment when the balls come crashing down. This practice is like that; I fall down, over and over, then find the rhythm again of effortless efforts. Eventually, even the falling down and returning becomes its own kind of rhythm and the effort of returning to the effortless itself becomes effortless. Then I think "wow, this is effortless" and well, you know what happens...

The art of successful failure is to let every stumble be the shifting of weight that leads naturally to the next step. Every breath out flows naturally to the next breath in. Zazen is just this.

-Dan
Sat (and stumbled) today

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gassho2

Yes, many folks compare arts such as juggling to Zazen, and many other arts where one just relaxes, settles in and lets it flow.

Did you see this fellow walk across a tightrope across the Chicago skyline yesterday, blindfolded. Zazen. And he keeps a whole conversation going through it too! (I love when he looks down and comments, "Gee, that's a long way down!" [scared] )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHLLYIUbfB8

Gassho, J

Crazy. :) Sometimes I feel like Wile E Coyote, who runs off the cliff after the roadrunner and doesn't even realize there's no longer any ground underneath his feet...until he looks down.

Attachment 2142
Zazen is like tightrope walking, only there's not even a tightrope. :nightmare:

-Dan
Sat (and looked down!) today

Quote:

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Originally Posted by delphizealot

The art of successful failure is to let every stumble be the shifting of weight that leads naturally to the next step. Every breath out flows naturally to the next breath in. Zazen is just this.

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YES!

Gassho
Lisa
sat today

Ugrok, thanks so much for following on with your efforts and sharing your experience here. Working with the tough stuff, that's it. There are likely others like me, who don't have the courage and words to bring out the tough stuff.

_/\_ Shinzan

Well, you're welcome... I'm kinda torn apart, because i begin to fear going to the zendo tomorrow. I mean, i know that i will struggle and feel bad, and i begin to question myself about it seriously : why go there if it is to feel bad ? Life is short ! Basically, my mind is making up excuses to not go, and at the same time i don't know what to do, follow that instinct or not... I could do positive things during that time, in which i feel good, like going to my aikido class. Don't know what i will choose.

Gassho
Ugrok,
Sat today with a hangover

Ugrok,

As someone who has struggled with anxiety of many types, I can relate to all of your posts. And when I began to sit zazen I had days like you describe where I go around in circles. All I can say is that over time much of that has fallen away, but it is never easy.

In one of your posts you mention that you can't leave when sitting zazen with the group. May I ask why not? If I was told I could not leave that would certainly make me feel trapped and my monkey brain would go crazy. Are you sure it is not allowed? I wouldn't suggest that you leave every time a thought comes to your mind, but is it possible that the only one saying you cannot leave is you? And forgive me if I missed you describing this in detail.

In any case, sit when you can for as long as you feel able. To do otherwise can be counterproductive, at least I think so.

Gassho,
Dosho

Sat today

Actually, nobody ever told me that i could not stand up and leave... But when i sit there, i just cannot see me doing this, ahah ! I'm a bit stupid with this... I don't allow myself to do it.

Thank you for pointing that out.

Gassho,

Ugrok
Sat today

I can relate as I have sat with repetitive anxieties emerging uncontrollably. I once called them “intrusive thoughts” because they were uninvited and I wished for them to go away. In a sense, my resistance gave them some degree of authority. Labeling them “intrusive” did not really help either. I then ran across some writing sponsored by Suzuki or Uchiyama that said (paraphrasing here from memory) the negative thoughts that keep emerging during zazen are getting worn down over time. This concept spoke to me because I realized the significance of consistently and repetitively experiencing the thoughts and then returning to zazen the best I could, especially when the thoughts eventually got “worn down” and left and this was affirmed. If the issue is biologically driven like social anxiety disorder or something similar then I think that’s an altogether different problem/solution that often requires additional assistance.

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Originally Posted by Jamen

I can relate as I have sat with repetitive anxieties emerging uncontrollably. I once called them “intrusive thoughts” because they were uninvited and I wished for them to go away. In a sense, my resistance gave them some degree of authority. Labeling them “intrusive” did not really help either. I then ran across some writing sponsored by Suzuki or Uchiyama that said (paraphrasing here from memory) the negative thoughts that keep emerging during zazen are getting worn down over time. This concept spoke to me because I realized the significance of consistently and repetitively experiencing the thoughts and then returning to zazen the best I could, especially when the thoughts eventually got “worn down” and left and this was affirmed. If the issue is biologically driven like social anxiety disorder or something similar then I think that’s an altogether different problem/solution that often requires additional assistance.

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Hello,

Sitting with whatever comes and goes is relatively easy for me. Off the cushion is another story. When I can't go with the flow because of very bothersome intrusive thoughts I try to pick a worthless word such as Coca Cola, Cowabanga, Chilax, or (pick your favorite worthless word) and replace the thought with such words. Although the thoughts still arise, the negative emotions associated with the thought go away. In due time so does the thought. This technique works even better for me when I repeat the worthless word in my mind when I am not having intrusive thoughts so that my mind associates the worthless word as neither good or bad. Some folks like to pick worthless words like No! or repeat stuff like Gate Gate, Paragate, Parasamgate, Bod...

That's my practice and I am sticking to it. :)

Gassho, Jishin

#SatToday

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jishin

Hello,

Sitting with whatever comes and goes is relatively easy for me. Off the cushion is another story. When I can't go with the flow because of very bothersome intrusive thoughts I try to pick a worthless word such as Coca Cola, Cowabanga, Chilax, or (pick your favorite worthless word) and replace the thought with such words. Although the thoughts still arise, the negative emotions associated with the thought go away. In due time so does the thought. This technique works even better for me when I repeat the worthless word in my mind when I am not having intrusive thoughts so that my mind associates the worthless word as neither good or bad. Some folks like to pick worthless words like No! or repeat stuff like Gate Gate, Paragate, Parasamgate, Bod...

That's my practice and I am sticking to it. :)

Gassho, Jishin

#SatToday

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I have to agree with you there. The real challenge for me is also off the mat. I have never tried the word technique myself but I might have to give it a shot. When I'm feeling some irritability rise I usually go to my breath almost involuntarily at times...but other times there is a delay and I have to catch myself and assert focused breathing. The question is how long do I entertain the irritable feeling before I bring my mind back to the body with my breath.