DUMBEST TOPIC THREAD EVER

OK, this is the most remedial question ever!!! unfortunately, i couldn't find the answer so easily, so here goes....

how does one sit?!

i'm lame about my sitting consistencey...and i tend to "do my own thing" frequently. but, i'm finding that i want to solidify HOW and WHY right now...so.....

i cant accomplish full lotus, but i can do half...which leg goes on top? which on bottom? nishijima says left on top on youtube...many others say left on bottom....what is correct? why? what is the significance?

same with hands.....and what's with the different hand positions? holding/making the egg, etc... WTF?

i've committed to joining treeleaf, taking the online jukai, etc....but, i need some basic instruction on how "we' are doing things.

jundo, help me out bro!

I sit with the left leg on top....when I sit cross-legged, which I haven't done for awhile. When I return to cross-legged sitting, I'll sit mostly with left on top in HL, but for longer sits or multiple sits, I switch.

Chet

Hi mahakalaugh,

Welcome.

Here's something you might find helpful: http://blog.beliefnet.com/treeleafzen/2 ... fo-30.html.

I'm sure Jundo can provide you with more links and info.

"We're all beginners here." :D

Gassho,

James.

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Originally Posted by mahakalaugh

OK, this is the most remedial question ever!!! unfortunately, i couldn't find the answer so easily, so here goes....

how does one sit?!

i'm lame about my sitting consistencey...and i tend to "do my own thing" frequently. but, i'm finding that i want to solidify HOW and WHY right now...so.....

i cant accomplish full lotus, but i can do half...which leg goes on top? which on bottom? nishijima says left on top on youtube...many others say left on bottom....what is correct? why? what is the significance?

same with hands.....and what's with the different hand positions? holding/making the egg, etc... WTF?

i've committed to joining treeleaf, taking the online jukai, etc....but, i need some basic instruction on how "we' are doing things.

jundo, help me out bro!

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Hi James,

Actually, this is one of the most important topics ever ... and one in which I have been a little remiss.

Truly, if there is one area when an "online Zendo" has its limits ... this is it. Helping people with sitting position and posture. I have tried to work with cameras and (often due to the computer screen or a cheap convex camera lens) ... the result is deceiving.

The best course is to get to an "in the flesh" Zen group a few times (or any Buddhist group if a Zen group is not available) or a Yoga instructor (but bring your Zafu, as Yoga folks usually sit flat on the floor or on tiny cushions) and get some help on finding posture. We just had a thread on this topic (which links to other threads related to it) ... please have a look at each ...

viewtopic.php?p=29375#p29375

Also, the video talk which Fr. James mentioned, and the others around it in the "beginner's" series ...

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Here's something you might find helpful: http://blog.beliefnet.com/treeleafzen/2 ... fo-30.html.

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I do recommend the Burmese for beginners, and the Half-Lotus if one can manage (chair only if medically necessary ... Seiza bench, the jury is still out) ...

Now, I have been remiss in writing up some instructions for sitting posture, instead pointing folks to some other good explanations online. Here is a very good one from Zen Mountain Center ... (and do not neglect the importance of getting one's knees flat on the ground ... using some pillows underneath the knees temporarily until one can) ...

http://www.mro.org/zmm/teachings/meditation.php

The only real difference I have from those ZMC instructions is that I encourage "focusing on the breath" as a temporary (or sometime) means to build the ability to develop focus or calm the mind's racing thoughts (even the Zen Mountain page says that "focusing on the breath" is not yet "Skikantaza" if you read closely). After the mind attains a certain ability to relax, focus, calm and sit still, I teach sitting with a mind "open and spacious, focused on all objects and no particular object, while letting thoughts drift from mind." Focused on everything and nothing in particular. Silent and illuminating.

Nor do I teach a style of Shikantaza focused on the Hara (tanden), as recommended in the Zen Mountain Center instructions. More on that topic here, and the slight difference in approach among Shikantaza teachers about where to place one's attention.

viewtopic.php?p=23389#p23389

But as to posture, however, very good directions on the Zen Mountain page.

Gassho, Jundo

thanks all. i'll check out those links.

chet,

do you generally use that little bench thingy? i think that seems most comfortable. but, although i know we shouldn't be attached to things like particulars in method, it seems like a lot of teachers/"masters" find deep significance in such. which leg goes on top/bottom, likewise w/ the hands, sitting full-lotus, half-lotus if necessary....these seem prerequisite for "proper" sitting. i try not to obsess over minutiae, but i do want to honor this tradition and do it "right". trying to hit a baseball while holding the bat w/ my left hand on top of my right would make things extremely difficult and awkward...you know? maybe a bad analogy, but maybe not - that's why i initially asked about the how and the WHY.

-tim

It's your path, but I can tell you I wasted precious time in my own practice life obsessing about perfect posture. I've come to know experientially it really doesn't matter all that much, at least within a certain range of postures.

I definitely believe one needs to sit upright, and agree that the most stable sitting posture is a "tripod" with the knees and butt serving as the points of the tripod. But how exactly one arranges one's legs I think is a minor detail.

I have the ability to sit in full lotus and did so for a while. I was able to get away with it even though my lotus wasn't exactly stable--my top leg would often start sliding down my thigh. But the first time I did a sesshin, I got a rude awakening. Sitting in full lotus period after period left me in incredible pain. I felt very unbalanced and I spend most of that first sesshin just toughing it through the pain.

Very quickly after that, as a survival mechanism, I began sitting in Burmese. I've never looked back. I find it more stable and balanced for me than half lotus. I can sit in Burmese for over an hour, multiple hours if I briefly stretch every 30 minutes to an hour. That's all the Buddha ever taught about posture, that we find a posture that is stable and comfortable enough that we can hold it through long periods of zazen. I doubt the Buddha worried over the esoteric meaning of how his legs were folded and focused more on finding a posture that would allow him to maintain his vow of continuous sitting until he was awakened.

I personally find it difficult, if not impossible, to sit in a chair. But see, I've never been much of a chair-sitter anyway; I like to sit in the floor with my legs folded. I'll pull my legs up under me sitting at a restaurant if the bench is big enough. I find the posture of sitting in a chair to feel unstable and unbalanced. I really do believe in the importance of holding one's spine upright and being supported by one's butt and knees / legs at equidistant points from one another. But other than that, I think stuff about full lotus being better than Burmese is just superstition and dogma.

I also find it hard to sit with my hands in anything other than cosmic mudra. I don't know why it is that it seems to help the mind focus, but it certainly seems to for me.

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Originally Posted by mahakalaugh

thanks all. i'll check out those links.

chet,

do you generally use that little bench thingy? i think that seems most comfortable. but, although i know we shouldn't be attached to things like particulars in method, it seems like a lot of teachers/"masters" find deep significance in such. which leg goes on top/bottom, likewise w/ the hands, sitting full-lotus, half-lotus if necessary....these seem prerequisite for "proper" sitting. i try not to obsess over minutiae, but i do want to honor this tradition and do it "right". trying to hit a baseball while holding the bat w/ my left hand on top of my right would make things extremely difficult and awkward...you know? maybe a bad analogy, but maybe not - that's why i initially asked about the how and the WHY.

-tim

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Huh. Makes me wonder why you asked, since you seem to already have a very solid opinion on what correct posture is.

If you want to be a posture-Nazi, you'll find a whole lot of support amongst the many spiritual athletes in our fine tradition. If you see a correlation between obsession on posture and tendency toward awake-ness, let me know. I certainly haven't seen it.

I think the tendency toward posture fascism is just a weird quirk of the Japanese. That said, the obsession with 'doing it right' can really get in the way. In my own case, I really went off the reservation with my posture those first four years - mostly with leg-on-top choice... I'd attain certain mental states with one leg up, then I'd have to see if those same states would happen with the other leg up. And whether those states would come if the clothes dryer was or wasn't running. Or if I sat in a certain place every time, I'd force myself to sit in different places... and at different times. It got REALLY OCD in a bad, bad way.

I would say it was this craziness that toppled my practice the first time. Maybe it's my own mental make-up, but this practice really brings out stuff you may not be aware of - in my case, the OCD-ness was really a huge symptom of insecurity - an insecurity I'd never thought about or realized I'd had. I was also doing all this sitting in combination with vegetarianism, which had taken a very large toll on my health. Mind you, this is AFTER having a very profound kensho experience (which just goes to show how 'necessary but not sufficient' these sorts of experiences are).

Lastly, welcome to Soto Zen and to Treeleaf Sangha.

Chet

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Originally Posted by Stephanie

That's all the Buddha ever taught about posture, that we find a posture that is stable and comfortable enough that we can hold it through long periods of zazen. I doubt the Buddha worried over the esoteric meaning of how his legs were folded and focused more on finding a posture that would allow him to maintain his vow of continuous sitting until he was awakened.

... I really do believe in the importance of holding one's spine upright and being supported by one's butt and knees / legs at equidistant points from one another. But other than that, I think stuff about full lotus being better than Burmese is just superstition and dogma.

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I have come to agree with Stephanie over the years. I mix my sitting among Burmese (most of the time) Half Lotus (lots of the time) and Full Lotus (about once a week, and perhaps more to "honor Tradition" and "stay in shape" than any other reason).

Living in Japan for about 20 years, I have sometimes spoken of the Japanese fixation on "Kata" (and about some other misconceptions about Shikantaza) ... Japanese culture can be a bit rigid and incessant on the one "right" way to do any action, be it to pour a cup of tea (this is a cultural aspect of the traditional arts) or crossing the street, and about pushing oneself to conform to that 'One Way or the Highway' ... called a "Kata" (if anyone has martial arts experience). Read more here ...

viewtopic.php?p=12161#p12161

That being said, all forms of Shikantaza (really, all forms of meditation) have an "object of meditation", a place to focus or place the mind to build concentration and quiet the thoughts (hopefully to pass through "object" and "subject"). Different teachers will recommend different things ... focusing on the posture, on keeping the spine straight, focusing on the Hara (Tanden) or on following the breath. Often the intent is to build a very "one-pointed" state of mind. That's fine (many ways up the mountain).

But I believe that the true fruits of Shikantaza (and the related practice of "Silent Illumination") are beyond that ...

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Well, I believe that the true fruits of sitting are not merely tasted by "one pointed sitting", be it on a Mantra, Koan, breathing , the 'Hara', or "keeping the mind focused on the posture". Oh, yes, that will certainly bring about "softening and losing the sense of self", but the result can become a little that "one has to be in the posture (or counting breaths, or reciting the Mantra, etc.), on the Zafu, to 'get there'"....

But the most precious fruits of our Practice are to sit with "what is", life, circumstances "just as they are" which are not apart from us ... and just are us and us them and just are. This aids us in bringing the "lessons" of Zazen off the Zafu into our lives. I find this comes more easily from sitting with "open spacious mind, eyes not closed, fully present with one's surroundings yet focused on everything and nothing-in-particular, dropping the judgments, letting thoughts come and go, finding again and again the quiet space between etc." And as well, that ALSO brings about "softening and losing the sense of self". But by not limiting focus to the posture, it is easier to be "at one" with the whole world and all of flowering life, and to bring it off the Zafu ... which I believe was Dogen's and most other Zen teacher's main point.

+++

That open stillness is our "object of concentration".

Does that make it clear?

If folks are having problems settling down (and need an anchor to hold them down), I encourage them to count or focus on the breath for awhile ... but eventually get back to open, spacious, non-judgmental sitting.

Look, I am just the coach and trainer. Different pitching coaches teach subtly different ways, but its all BASEBALL!

://www.treeleaf.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=18864#p18864">viewtopic.php?p=1886 4#p18864

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As to the Left/Right bias, people lean different ways on this issue (pun within a pun!). Here is a thread on the topic ...which I summarize as follows:

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In the "introduction to Zazen"... Sawaki Roshi [ states that] " ... . First you should know the difference between two ways of sitting: Gômaza, the "posture that subdues demons", and kichijôza, the "auspicious posture". Even in old texts, there is quite some confusion about the two postures. In short, the right side represents the ascending, active (yang) aspect. The left side represents the descending, passive (yin) aspect. When the right foot rests on the left thigh, that represents the ascending activity that subdues the demons (gômaza). When the left foot rests on the right thigh, that is a descending, passive activity which is auspicious (kichijôza).

...

Personally, I think the who thing is a bunch of hogwash, based upon bits of ancient Chinese medicine and ideas of Ki, Yin Yang, traditional "left side/right side" ideas and superstitions, and the prejudice of of "right" handed folks against the "sinister" left. It is a quaint idea, nothing more.

Several respected older Western Zen teachers were discussing the article recently, and don't see the difference between left and right. I usually favor the right, as I am right handed. It feels strange for to place the hands, for example, with the left hand on the bottom. However, I do not see any magic property in sitting one way or the other. If something feels strange about one side or the other, it is the same strangeness of a left hander trying to play tennis with a right handed grip and visa versa.

viewtopic.php?p=16689#p16689

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Now all that being said, I am reading another book right now, by a Rolfing teacher on the posture of Zazen, that emphasizes the importance of posture. On the other hand, the book really goes off the wall on some of its interpretations of the posture ... Some good tips, but also many pseudo-scientific claims such as the effect of the posture on our "life force" "energy fields" and whatnot.

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Synopsis: When it comes to meditation practices, the body is as important as the mind - a fact that may come as a surprise to the many people who regard meditation as a strictly mental activity. But, as Will Johnson shows, the physical aspect of the practice is far too often underemphasized. The alert-yet-relaxed sitting posture that is the common denominator of so many meditative techniques is a wonderful aid for clearing the mind and opening the heart, but it also works to activate the natural healing energies of both body and mind. The author offers guidance and exercises for working with the posture of meditation and advice on how to carry its benefits on into all the rest of life.
http://www.amazon.com/Posture-Meditatio ... 1570622329

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So, several schools of thought (and no thought) on this.

Gassho, J

thanks all.

chet,

i have to admit that your insight is dead-on...it is likely a troublesome OCD / insecurity thing. thanks for seeing that and pointing it out.
thankfully, it hasn't stifled my practice...i'm officially "letting it go" - probably easier said than done, but i'll do my best... if i had more cliches to insert ad nauseum i would...sorry..i ran out of 'em.

thanks again,
tim

Regarding left/right, etc. ...

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Originally Posted by Jundo

Personally, I think the who thing is a bunch of hogwash, based upon bits of ancient Chinese medicine and ideas of Ki, Yin Yang, traditional "left side/right side" ideas and superstitions, and the prejudice of of "right" handed folks against the "sinister" left. It is a quaint idea, nothing more.

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I'm just going to point out that alternative experiences exist. Call me New Age and throw me a crystal, but experience yin/yang-type feelings of differences in "energy flows". I have tried doing Zen left-over-right in the past and based on that empirical evidence I believe I get better openness/spaciousness when I'm left-over-right. Perhaps I generate all that. It works for me.

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Originally Posted by scott

Regarding left/right, etc. ...

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Originally Posted by Jundo

Personally, I think the who thing is a bunch of hogwash, based upon bits of ancient Chinese medicine and ideas of Ki, Yin Yang, traditional "left side/right side" ideas and superstitions, and the prejudice of of "right" handed folks against the "sinister" left. It is a quaint idea, nothing more.

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I'm just going to point out that alternative experiences exist. Call me New Age and throw me a crystal, but experience yin/yang-type feelings of differences in "energy flows". I have tried doing Zen left-over-right in the past and based on that empirical evidence I believe I get better openness/spaciousness when I'm left-over-right. Perhaps I generate all that. It works for me.

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What kind of space do you get when you're taking a crap? Or picking your nose?

There's nothing magical about zazen. It's not about chakras or energy or any of that. The posture is just a convenient way in which to assemble your body so that it doesn't require that much maintenance.

I've had good experiences with Chinese Medicine - so I don't mean to discount it, but right, left - it doesn't really matter.

Chet

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

What kind of space do you get when you're taking a crap? Or picking your nose?

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Taking a crap, I usually keep both legs on the floor ... side by side. I tried left over right leg, and right over left, and it does not work so good.

As to nose picking ... I usually begin right finger, right nostral, then right finger, left nostral.

In all seriousness, when I first moved to Japan, I used to see lots of these ... explanations for crap taking. Kata ... the Way ...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/8/125...e7607ce03b.jpg

Of course, understandable, when you remember that traditional Japanese WC are of the Turkish variety ... so you sometimes see these too ... for the benefit of foreigners new to Japan ...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2146/...679ea3be8e.jpg

http://www.babeled.com/wp-content/up...structions.jpg

including an anime version ... well worth careful study ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zL9pgK87Rw[/video]]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zL9pgK87Rw

And, of course, the LATEST Japanese Robo-Toilet requires a university degree, and a whole film explanation, to operate ... explained here in detail (worth watching.. These are actually quite common in houses here ... we have an early1990's model ...) ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WY-AYha28A[/video]]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WY-AYha28A


It's All Sacred!

Gassho, J

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

What kind of space do you get when you're taking a crap? Or picking your nose?

There's nothing magical about zazen. It's not about chakras or energy or any of that. The posture is just a convenient way in which to assemble your body so that it doesn't require that much maintenance.

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Zazen is zazen, but you are you, and conditions surrounding your shikantaza contribute to it differently. You cook food, and sleep with a blanket. Why? Why does Soto face the wall? It's all the same, right? In this case, you assert that left/right has no effect. Other people say it does, for them. Is your sweeping statement based on experience or theory? My personal empirical evidence does not agree, and thousands of years of practitioners have experienced differences. Do you think they were all fools? Maybe you should reconsider making casual generalizations. OK, I'm done, I just wanted to push back on people saying "it's all hooey".

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Originally Posted by scott

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

What kind of space do you get when you're taking a crap? Or picking your nose?

There's nothing magical about zazen. It's not about chakras or energy or any of that. The posture is just a convenient way in which to assemble your body so that it doesn't require that much maintenance.

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Zazen is zazen, but you are you, and conditions surrounding your shikantaza contribute to it differently.

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It's not about the content of the experience, it's about the ground of the experience, which does not change. If zazen was about maintaining the content of an experience, it would be conditioned, and therefore completely unreliable. In many of the teachings it is maintained that one should not judge his or her practice. Why do you think this is?

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You cook food, and sleep with a blanket.

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As a wise man once said, 'Not always so.'

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Why? Why does Soto face the wall? It's all the same, right?

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It's arbitrary. Honestly. I rarely face a wall when I sit because I rarely have a wall free for it. Also, again - not always so.

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In this case, you assert that left/right has no effect. Other people say it does, for them. Is your sweeping statement based on experience or theory?

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Experience. Also, I did not say it had no effect - I'm maintaining that whether it has an effect or not is inconsequential - since shikantaza is not about the attainment of any particular mental state.

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My personal empirical evidence does not agree, and thousands of years of practitioners have experienced differences. Do you think they were all fools? Maybe you should reconsider making casual generalizations. OK, I'm done, I just wanted to push back on people saying "it's all hooey".

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It's all hooey. Even wise people can have foolish ideas, and you do yourself no favors by honoring the foolishness and the wisdom without any discrimination.

Honor the ancestors, but do not honor stupidity or rigid and unhelpful thinking. To do so is the death of a religion in the guise of the preservation of the religion.

Have you heard the old story about the blind man and the lamp? An old blind man was walking narrow mountain roads at night. Because he had been blind for many years, he depended on memory and his other senses to navigate the roads. One night, he came upon a group of other travelers, startling them slightly as he walked from out of the darkness into the range of their lamps. Before leaving them, the group of travelers insisted that the blind man take a lamp before he go. He said, "I am blind! A lamp is useless to me." One of the group of travelers responded, "Although you cannot see the light, other travelers on the road will see the light and they will not bump into you in the night." Seeing the logic of the argument, the blind man thanked the group for the lamp and continued on his way, fairly confident that he would not run into anyone anymore on these narrow mountain roads. Several hours later, he and another lone traveler ran into one another hard enough that they both fell on the ground. The blind man raised his lamp and said, "You idiot! Why did you run into me? Couldn't you see my lamp?" "Old man," said the other traveler, "Your lamp has gone out."

This is the danger of navigating by a light you cannot see yourself.

Chet

I also wanted to add this:

I used to be very adamant about maintaining at least half-lotus posture. However, after many years of neglecting my zazen practice and concurrently doing a lot of heavy weightlifting, when I would attempt zazen in half-lotus, my left knee wouldn't touch the ground. My ex-girlfriend pointed this out and said, "You're not even sitting half-lotus correctly, you know." She sat seiza because after many years of mountain biking and triathlons, she'd done some pretty major damage to her knees and couldn't sit cross-legged anymore without some pretty severe after-effects. I was somewhat critical of her use of seiza form for zazen, but I changed my mind and acknowledged that my form was pretty bad after the years of neglect. I also wanted to 'jump-start' my practice and sit longer periods, so I also adopted seiza - but I decided to get a bench instead of trying to do seiza with a Zafu between my legs - as I am taller and quite a bit heavier than she was.

The point is, I only adopted seiza after realizing my attachment to cross-legged sitting was an egoic attachment by which I judged her and others. I also had to admit that sitting seiza would have been much better than the years of very infrequent sitting that I'd been doing up to then (after a very intense period of four years where I sat zazen in half-lotus DAILY).

Now Jundo is encouraging me to take up cross-legged sitting again. I'm deferring to his wisdom in this because he's my teacher. I have had more than a year to 'kick his tires' and at this point, I trust him. It's also a very stern message to my ego that its concerns are not relevant in Soto Zen practice. I'm sure that if sitting cross-legged were to damage my knees or cause such terrible after effects, he would relent because I don't think that he's really a posture-Nazi - I suspect that he just wants to ensure that my avoidance of the traditional form is really due to necessity and not laziness or egoic preference.

Chet

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Originally Posted by disastermouse

It's all hooey. Even wise people can have foolish ideas, and you do yourself no favors by honoring the foolishness and the wisdom without any discrimination.

Honor the ancestors, but do not honor stupidity or rigid and unhelpful thinking. To do so is the death of a religion in the guise of the preservation of the religion.

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One may be skeptical about some things (I am about many claims which lack evidence) ... but one should not be completely closed minded, and should be respectful. Someday, people in the 23rd century will look back on us and chuckle at many of our quaint beliefs ("Oh, Sally, do you know that folks back in 2010 still believed in gravity!?")

Most of the Zen and Buddhist teachers of the past ... Dogen among them, in centuries passed ... believed in "energy flows" and such (the belief in ki/chi, chakra and such is still common throughout Asia, and not without some acceptance in some parts of the medical community). Dreams, soothsaying, spirits ... you name it, all found in Zen Buddhism throughout its history.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

So, yes, I am skeptical about claims regarding phenomena about which there is little evidence. Criticize, question, discount or argue against what may be untrue. But do not be closed minded, insulting and too self-sure of your own positions.

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I'm sure that if sitting cross-legged were to damage my knees or cause such terrible after effects, he would relent because I don't think that he's really a posture-Nazi - I suspect that he just wants to ensure that my avoidance of the traditional form is really due to necessity and not laziness or egoic preference.

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That's right.

Gassho, J

I used to think it was high time we took the instructions off of shampoo bottles!
("For God's sake, how stupid are people anyway!?!")
Now I realize it's always new to someone.
If it continues to bother me then the problem lies between my ears, not on the bottle....
(I like to lather, rinse and repeat, personally.)

There are no stupid questions or "dumb threads".
And yet, there are stupid questions and dumb threads.
When questions become stupid or threads become dumb, it's probably better to go somewhere else for a while.
(Maybe sit down on something soft and stare at a wall?)

A woman who has worked for me for 9 years (and who is the godmother to my youngest son) lost her father last night.
She doesn't need instructions on how to feel right now.
I don't need instructions on how to have compassion for her suffering.
And yet, brushing up on my social skills by searching the internet for "grief counseling" might be a good idea before I see her next.

I'm going to take a shower now and wash my hair. Maybe I'll read that damn bottle again...

Gassho,
-K2

I can't sit with my hands in the cosmic mudra anymore; I have a tremor, and my hands shake too much if I do that. I have to put my hands on my thighs. Oh, and I sit on a stool too. I guess my sitting's not kosher...

glad to see my post took on a life of its own...you guys are funny.

so, i'm sitting burmese w/ my right leg "under" my left...same w/ the hands. right now i'm using a folded up blanket w/ some towls inside as a zafu (lots of travel for work and i need to pack light - oh yeah, i don't own any "proper" zen accoutrements either). i think it's working out pretty well b/c zazen is still as mundane and boring as ever.

k2,
how did that hair washing go? is your method exactly like the instructions on the bottle? i'm sure it works great for you either way... i know my hair gets clean w/ my method, but it's nice to know that i could consult the "experts" any time i like - even if don't end up taking their advice.

-tim