My Cancer Ango - 8 - What's A "Real" Zen Retreat?

Hi All,

Thank you again for all the continued good feelings and wisdom. Doctors seem to think that I have a few more years around this whirl of Samsara. I need some months to get back to full energy, and some parts are gone for good. Alas, such is precisely Samsara.

Here is my latest talk from the hospital bed. Recently, several Zen Organizations such as the American Zen Teachers Association and the Soto Zen Buddhist Association have been cracking down on the road to Priesthood as recognized and approved by those Organizations, imposing requirements for a certain flavor of "formal" residential retreat lasting many weeks or months at a stretch, in order to qualify for those organizations. In general, I support it. The only problem, however, is the kind of community I serve. I know excellent priests and priest candidates who could never get away for weeks and months because, well, for example, some are severely disabled and it is just a physical hardship or impossibility. There are the poor, including minority candidates (not all minority candidates are poor, of course, but many are), the struggling parent of a special needs kid who could (and would love to) get away but cannot abandon her kid's need for daily contact, the medical practitioner who can't leave his cancer patients (I am glad that my own doctor did not go off on some Retreat)!

I was told to go shout up a tree. (Without breaching any confidences, so I can only speak in very general terms), I was told that a "real" retreat has to look like this, where one learns how to tie fancy knots and do fancy dance moves reciting fancy foreign or antique words rarely fully understood ...

http://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/imag...n/zuioji_4.jpg

... or this ...

https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1511...460a03b0_b.jpg

... or this, where people drive up in their BMW's, sit Zazen and do some Yoga, eat some Tofu and "get away" ...

https://photos.tpn.to/fn/oo/mh/nf/653x490.jpg

I support ALL those kinds of Retreats if they ring someone's bell. Further, people should experience all that if they can. Don't think I am saying that one size fits all.

But (and here is the Koan): What of those folks who cannot "get away" from the Truth right here, there and everywhere, and just "What" is there to get away from? How about the victims of illness who face the questions of Life and Death and Impermanence while actually facing death, the Kannon who explores self-sacrifice and giving in service to the sick child, the victim of violence who overcame violence? (I will tell you more about these people in the coming days). Of course, just having such experiences in life is not enough, but should be combined with Zen Training, our Teachings (Zazen and Dogen for Soto folks), facing Birth and Death, Impermanence, Suffering (in contrast to the mere pain I presently well know), Aging and Sickness and Emptiness as all such. One can study Dogen at the child's bedside or in the mountains, learn the true meaning of "greed anger ignorance" as the source of one's past abuse or by being in the aggressive kind of environment that books like "Eat Sleep Sit" describe ....

http://www.kyotojournal.org/reviews/a-year-at-eiheiji/

One can recite the Heart Sutra while in front of an Altar made of Gold, or while digging through earthquake rubble with one's hands looking for signs of one's missing daughter.

Then, one is Training to be an excellent Zen Priest, and one is walking the Real Road. Each Sits their own "Real" Retreat.

How about if we made a little tiny room for ALL such wonderful priests and teachers, both the traditional, the mainstream Western and the "hands on the world" types. All can be excellent, caring, ethical Zen Priests.

Anyway, it is Visiting Hours here in the Cancer Ward, so please pull up a chair for a few minutes and let's chat ... I hope I make you smile too ...

https://youtu.be/zxib84IAVIw

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

Hi Jundo,

It’s very good to hear you’ll be around for many years to come! :)

We need many questions and teachings!

I see “Retreats” can help facilitate our practice with less distractions, and help beginners like me have a more direct relationship with the Teacher and sangha.
But our motivation shouldn’t be for escaping from anything, but rather to cultivate gratitude to be on an environment that will help our practice.
We may realize that in nature we are even more connected with an infinity of life forms, so I we are thinking from escaping from anything, like crowed of people, we will realize that other beings hanging around too!

For formalities, I guess, it’s the middle path right?? Keep it formal as a retreat without loosing the direction on either way.

Gassho,

Moy


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Sorry for my broken grammar, :(

English not my first language,

Gassho

Moy


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All life is our temple
Gassho

Even from your bed, a lovely teaching ... thank you my dear Jundo. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

This really hits on some of the angst I see from some Zen teachers that Zen in the United States is an exercise in "white privilege" and a playground for the well off who can afford to spend so much time at retreats and the like. It's amazing how attached to forms people who are practicing not being attached to forms can be. I think Jundo may be on to something here. I have to confess, I did "check him out" before I joined, but as I watch through the videos and read through the posts I don't regret that I did.

Gassho
Jason

Sat Today

Hi,

Zen is evolving. 10 years ago an online sangha was more controversial. Jundo’s teacher got dharma transmission despite being viewed as non conventional by some. I don’t think we have to placate anyone. This is the future and its happening right now. If it’s not fully accepted it will soon be. How could it not? We no longer live in caves. Tradition is important but we are now tradition. We have our own and others will follow. I am tired of the feeling that we have to prove anything anymore. I think that if and when the priests in training get transmission not only will they be capable but they will also have a following of students to pass down the tree of knowledge.

My pissed off 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

thanks Jundo. Your story about these people made me smile..
i am afraid they would not accept master Ikkyu too:

My Retirement from Nioi-an with a Poem for Yoso

After ten days in this temple, my mind is spinning—
The “red thread of passion” is very strong in my loins,
if you wish to locate me another day,
Look in the fish stall, the sake shop or the brothel!


gassho2
coos
std

gassho2

Gassho
Meishin
Sat today lah

Who are these people attacking our way and why should we care? What we do is what we do and Jishin is right, we have nothing to prove to anyone.

It doesn’t matter what the AZTA or SZBA or Soto-shu says about this real life practice. The only effect those organizations have on my real life is the effect they have on my teacher, and beyond that they are completely insignificant. The SZBA has as much influence on me as the school board of Muncie, Indiana.

Gassho, Zenmei (sat)


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Treeleaf, has allowed me to join a sangha, practice with others, learn, taught me self discipline to follow commitments. I could not possibly attend a long retreat, i am the only medic here on this little island. So without Treeleaf and it's openness I would be adrift.
These organisations that criticise this approach would in effect be turning their backs on potential wonderful priests because of physical, geographical or service obstacles. I do not recall a teaching instructing such actions?
Go Treeleaf.....thank you Jundo.

Wonderful to hear you after your little lay down in hospital


Gassho
Richard
Sat today

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Great to hear your voice getting stronger.

I agree with Jishin...why should we placate anyone. I also agree with Jason about privilege, which is being talked about more and more. What you are doing on Treeleaf, making Zen accessible to so many of us, is incredible. It's changed my life. The priests here training exactly where they are in their life circumstances, whatever they are, are an inspiration.

Thank you Jundo.

Gassho
Lucy
ST/LAH

gassho2

Gassho
Byōkan
sat + lah

Its hard for me to say why, but watching this has brought me a lot of joy today.

Love to all beings,

Simon
Sat.


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gassho2
I am glad you are recouvering well.
Thank you.

Gassho
Marcus
SatToday

Hi Jundo, I think it goes without saying that we all agree with you regarding the AZTA and SZBA.

Right now - watching the video - I just want to respectfully and caringly say 'Please Slow Down.' :)

Perhaps we can get too tied up altogether with the notion of what constitutes a retreat? We all know in our hearts when our lives involve the essence of
a spiritual retreat - which really emphasises focus - not necessarily retreat from the external world. Maybe focus on helping others - or single minded focus on simply surviving if we are ill or caught up in a mentally challenging situation. Everything that flows into our lives flows out in a positive way if we choose to use it to
learn and develop our spiritual practice.

I agree with Jishin - and as much as I respect/appreciate tradition I'd like to radicalize more - starting with a robeless Zen .... but what do I know?

gassho2

Willow

ST

...just to add, my Ango and Jukai experiences have definitely helped me cope with some very difficult situations caring for patients up here. Without Treeleaf I am pretty sure I could have wilted over these last weeks.
So..... Thank you again for making this practice available to us scattered folk

I understand why some might dislike TL as It is a non-traditional sangha. People don’t like change.

Now, I think TL is a fantastic idea, to bring the teachings to all being in all directions is something I am sure the Buddha would approve of.

My only problem for my personally, I feel the Dharma should have a face to face component in some way. As someone who wants to deeps my practise and potentially in the future become an Unsui, I feel I would like to meet face-to-face with the teacher at times during my studies.

As always, a balance must be struck. The old ways much adapt and the new must remember the old. Perhaps ad this sangha develops, monks/unsui/senior laity can organise sitting groups and retreats to strengthen the bonds between ours.

Deeps bows to those in needs,

Simon
Sat


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Thank you Jundo.

Sat with you and will keep on sitting with you. Your smile makes me happy :)

Gassho,

Kyonin

Thanks Jundo. Nice to hear you.

No us and them now
Sitting silently in space
Seabirds returning

SAT today


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Thank you, Jundo.

As the Kalama Sutta says, go with what works, not by tradition/books/gurus/hearsay etc. Go with what does good and benefits people and the world.
_/\_
sattoday

The biggest lesson I have received from TreeLeaf is the statement "All of Life is our Temple". It is from TreeLeaf that I really learned that Zen is everyday, is every moment. It changed my perspective. I don't need to "retreat". I need to embrace it all. Sure, there are times when it is good to sit extra long and engage in a more intensive, immersive period but we do that here as the recent Rohatsu demonstrated. Plus TreeLeaf doesn't exclude going to a brick&mortar temple if one chooses. I can't speak for the quality of the training our Unsui receive but Jundo and they all appear to be very diligent and motivated people so I have no reason to doubt.

Just my 2cents

Good to see you getting your strength back Jundo.

gassho2
Warren
Sat today

Nice to see you Jundo.

Gassho,

Shugen

Sattoday/LAH


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Others have already put forth my thoughts, likely better than I. So I will just add

Jundo I find your talks unlike anything else I have encountered in that I am both highly entertained and extremely inspired at the same time. :)

There is an expression here in the Western US: If you are green you are growing, if you are ripe you are rotting. When people, or organizations, get too ripe they calcify and start to rot.

I find Zen more really alive here at Treeleaf - and I think that is because Treeleaf is still growing. And growing in new and important ways. It is robust and moving forward. It feels to me like some of these organizations want to keep things as they are. They feel Zen is all figured out and needs to stay in its little box.

I am still in the process of seeing the beauty of traditional forms and procedures. The bowing and the specifics of movement. I have come to appreciate the ritual. But again, to me, Zen starts to whither and die when it becomes all about the structure, the forms, the procedures.

I am very thankful for Treeleaf.

Gassho, Allan

SaT-LaH

Jundo, what a gift we received today as you visited with us from your hospital bed, sharing what is really an Ango retreat. I have to say there were tears in my eyes seeing you and hearing you talk. It really demonstrates how life is always changing and our conditions impermanent. That is not a negative observation for it was just days ago we could see in Mina' s writing's how worried she was. Such a wonderful change. Don't fret about loosing parts. It is wonderful how the body works around such things. Thank you for reaffirming that we are observing Ango and carrying out our retreats in the manner that is wholly correct within our individual circumstances. I remember when I was young and went to church with friends and they were about to take communion. When I got up to follow them I was informed I could not do that because I was not baptized in their church. Ah structure and tradition with no account as to what is within ones heart.

SAT TODAY

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jishin

Hi,

Zen is evolving. 10 years ago an online sangha was more controversial. Jundo’s teacher got dharma transmission despite being viewed as non conventional by some. I don’t think we have to placate anyone. This is the future and its happening right now. If it’s not fully accepted it will soon be. How could it not? We no longer live in caves. Tradition is important but we are now tradition. We have our own and others will follow. I am tired of the feeling that we have to prove anything anymore. I think that if and when the priests in training get transmission not only will they be capable but they will also have a following of students to pass down the tree of knowledge.

My pissed off 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

---

I treasure your "pissed offs," one of my own canaries in the coal mine.

Gassho, J

STLah

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lorax

Jundo, what a gift we received today as you visited with us from your hospital bed, sharing what is really an Ango retreat. I have to say there were tears in my eyes seeing you and hearing you talk. It really demonstrates how life is always changing and our conditions impermanent. That is not a negative observation for it was just days ago we could see in Mina' s writing's how worried she was. Such a wonderful change. Don't fret about loosing parts. It is wonderful how the body works around such things. Thank you for reaffirming that we are observing Ango and carrying out our retreats in the manner that is wholly correct within our individual circumstances. I remember when I was young and went to church with friends and they were about to take communion. When I got up to follow them I was informed I could not do that because I was not baptized in their church. Ah structure and tradition with no account as to what is within ones heart.

SAT TODAY

---

Thanks to everyone for helpful words.

I would particularly like to thank Shozan, whom a Texas hurricane prevented me from meeting a few months ago (I fled to Jishin's house!), but whom I meet each day. This guy, a volcano expert in his past life, has taught me more about getting through all life's eruptions, including health stuff, than about anyone I can name.

Gassho, J

STLAH

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Richard

Treeleaf, has allowed me to join a sangha, practice with others, learn, taught me self discipline to follow commitments. I could not possibly attend a long retreat, i am the only medic here on this little island. So without Treeleaf and it's openness I would be adrift.
These organisations that criticise this approach would in effect be turning their backs on potential wonderful priests because of physical, geographical or service obstacles. I do not recall a teaching instructing such actions?
Go Treeleaf.....thank you Jundo.

Wonderful to hear you after your little lay down in hospital


Gassho
Richard
Sat today

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---

One of the folks from the "mainstream" wrote me (not about you, but about my doctor example), that folks in the medical profession take vacations all the time for weddings and conferences and such. I said that that is not always so ...

In case you are wondering, one example of "new rules" is the following ...

Quote:

---

The standards in this document define the minimum level of proficiency required for full membership in the --- Association (A). These standards are in addition to the previously established requirements for membership, which are:
1) Ordination and dharma transmission in a recognized .... Zen lineage (with ceremonies conducted in-person and according to the tradition of the lineage);
2) Submission of an application and registration fee;
3) Payment of annual dues;
4) Agreement to abide by and be held accountable to the ----A Ethics Statement;
5) Submission of an Ethics Statement to which the member agrees to abide and be held accountable, and which meets the criteria listed in the ----A Ethics Statement.


....

[Definition]
Formal Practice Intensive: A period of residential practice and training that meets criteria for a formal practice intensive as established by an --- A training committee. This would be a 3-week to 90-day period that involves a 24-hour schedule of continuous practice.


Training: At least one 90-day formal practice intensive that meets the criteria established by the ---A training committee. Priests-in-training who demonstrate an inability to fulfill the 90 day requirement may alternately complete four three-week formal practice intensives that also meet the criteria established by the -----A training committee.

---

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Why is it important to be recognised by the American Zen thingy peoples? Surely the more important organisation is Soto-shu? Unless... dum, dum, DUM! Jundo is a big faker!!!!

Simon
Sat?


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Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Professsor

Why is it important to be recognised by the American Zen thingy peoples? Surely the more important organisation is Soto-shu? Unless... dum, dum, DUM! Jundo is a big faker!!!!

Simon
Sat?


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---

Oh boy.

Maybe half of respected American Zen priests are recognized by Soto-shu, the rest don't care. Nishijima was a Soto-shu Priest, and his Teacher Niwa Zenji was the "Pope" of Soto-shu and Abbot of Dogen's Temple Eiheiji. But Nishijima was a critic of Soto-shu, and felt that they had lost their way in not emphasizing Zazen enough, not bringing things out into the world, and an overemphasis on training young men to inherit their father's temple to continue "funeral culture" and the performance of lucrative ancestor ceremonies. Soto shu did not care, as Nishijima was a mosquito on their rump.

I had my Ordination registered with Soto shu, but Dharma Transmission is between Teacher and Student. I would not seek any approval from Soto shu, nor need any, and in some way I am sure that my having a Zazen group in Japan violates their rules. No sweat. Further, They don't care, as I am another mosquito on their rump.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jundo

Oh boy.

Maybe half of respected American Zen priests are recognized by Soto-shu, the rest don't care. Nishijima was a Soto-shu Priest, and his Teacher Niwa Zenji was the "Pope" of Soto-shu and Abbot of Dogen's Temple Eiheiji. But Nishijima was a critic of Soto-shu, and felt that they had lost their way in not emphasizing Zazen enough, not bringing things out into the world, and an overemphasis on training young men to inherit their father's temple to continue "funeral culture" and the performance of lucrative ancestor ceremonies. Soto shu did not care, as Nishijima was a mosquito on their rump.

I had my Ordination registered with Soto shu, but Dharma Transmission is between Teacher and Student. I would not seek any approval from Soto shu, nor need any, and in some way I am sure that my having a Zazen group in Japan violates their rules. No sweat. Further, They don't care, as I am another mosquito on their rump.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

---

Haha! You and Nishijima sound like my sort of people. Please continue to be the fly in the soto-shu ointment. Teach for the heart, not for the wallet!

Simon
Sat/Lah


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Jundo,

Glad to see they did take the spunk out of you alongside the tumor. Thank you for the talk and thank everyone else for the discussion it has spawned.

Like others I was apprehensive at first when researching you. But getting to know you through the videos has alleviated that.

Retreats are impractical for most lay practitioners and being able to become a zen priest should not be dependent on the genetic lottery ( location of birth, skin color, health issues, etc.). Suffering does not discriminate and the desire to end suffering is all that should matter.

Let them call us what they like, it is them who suffers when fighting changing times.

Jim
Satlah


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Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jishin

Hi,

Zen is evolving. 10 years ago an online sangha was more controversial. Jundo’s teacher got dharma transmission despite being viewed as non conventional by some. I don’t think we have to placate anyone. This is the future and its happening right now. If it’s not fully accepted it will soon be. How could it not? We no longer live in caves. Tradition is important but we are now tradition. We have our own and others will follow. I am tired of the feeling that we have to prove anything anymore. I think that if and when the priests in training get transmission not only will they be capable but they will also have a following of students to pass down the tree of knowledge.

My pissed off 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

---

Everyone here has said great things better than I can, but no-one has summed up my feelings better than Jishin. I'm not pissed off at these people though, only in as far as they are pissing you off Jundo, I've already said in a different thread that I couldn't care less about them and you shouldn't either. You have enough testimonials here to know that you have changed the lives of so many of us and not just us but countless people by encouraging us to go out into the world and try to do something for others, rather than sitting around on our bums talking about it. Not forgetting of course that we DO sit on our bums, quite a lot, in between times :D
The Dharma will always be the Dharma, but the world in which it is taught and learnt is changing fast. Looking at how the methods of transmitting it have changed in 2000 plus years, it's a little crazy to think that things will always stay as they are now because of a bunch of people want it that way.
As far as I'm concerned, Treeleaf is the shape of things to come, right out there in front and others are going to follow.

Great to see you so well Jundo, fighting fit almost! And I'm a little intrigued by your cuddly friend - he/she looks like a famous old beloved UK puppet character called Sweep but probably only I remember that. :crushed:

Deepest of bows
Frankie
satwithyoualltoday/lah

I remember Sooty and Sweep. You are not alone!

S.
Sat


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Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Professsor

I remember Sooty and Sweep. You are not alone!

S.
Sat


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---

[claps]
Gassho
Frankie
satwithyoualltoday/lah

Dear Jundo

It is so lovely to see you getting stronger and to join your Ango in your hospital bed.

I am grateful for all of your efforts on our behalf yet also feel that just being here and practicing is enough without it needing to be ratified by any external organisation. Undoubtedly you are looking further ahead to a time when Treeleaf priests may want to be involved in developing western Zen but I think this will happen anyway. At some point, the old guard will drop away and new folk will look at Treeleaf and realise what kind of a place it is, and what kind of practitioners it produces. At this point, and with the foundation of some newer online sanghas, they will come knocking at our door and ask us to be a part of things, asking us how we manage to engage in meaningful retreat as homeowners, teachers, parents, carers, disabled folk, shift workers and everything else in between. As the 21st century progresses, ignoring the fact that online sangha enables Zen to reach more and more genuine students and insisting that our way is not in line with traditions that have themselves been subject to change, gets ever harder.

We need to focus on being genuine at what we do and engaging with other sanghas, exchanging ideas and teachings, turning up at sesshins and behaving impeccably as students and guests, helping our communities and leaving a trail of flowers where we walk.

Sure a little push from time to time doesn't hurt but not even the gods can stop change from coming.

Anyway, I hope you ate your lunch. Roshis don't get well on an empty stomach! :p

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

Treeleaf has given me the teaching to live a whole new life. Even now, sitting here eating my butternut squash soup for supper, these simple but precious moments have become more alive, thanks to the teachings here. I've also overcome a lot of obstacles, and done things I probably never would have had the courage to do if it weren't for this place.

I agree with Jishin's pissed off two cents. Whether these guys like it or not, Treeleaf is here, and we will continue to practice and live as all of life as our temple.

Sometimes I've found Gandhi's quiet resistance is the only way to deal with such folks and their dogmatic views.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kokuu

Anyway, I hope you ate your lunch. Roshis don't get well on an empty stomach! :p

---

He’s not a Roshi, he’s a very naughty boy!

Simon
Sat.


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The reference to "BMW driving priest" may be a little inspired by this satire film, one of the funniest Japanese films made in the period, called "The Funeral" by the late Itami Jizo. Recommended to all. It makes fun of the whole funeral culture, including a priest who shows up in a Rolls Royce. Actually, it is just satire, and temples are being abandoned right and left because they have no economic basis as parishioners move away. Now, there is competition from priests dispatched from corporate funeral companies too. However, some temples can still be very lucrative if having a large and generous parishioner base.

Warning: Brief Nudity. Priest and Rolls appears about 25 seconds in.

https://vimeo.com/180933694

Gassho, J

SatTOdayLAH

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Professsor

He’s not a Roshi, he’s a very naughty boy!

Simon
Sat.


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---

But I am a ROSHI! I AM I AM I AM!!! [sensei]

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...Roshi-Ceremony

And that entitles me to wear a funny hat and, with $1, get a small coffee at Burger King. [whopper]

Gassho, J
STLAH

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jundo

But I am a ROSHI! I AM I AM I AM!!! [sensei]

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...Roshi-Ceremony

And that entitles me to wear a funny hat and, with $1, get a small coffee at Burger King. [whopper]

Gassho, J
STLAH

---

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3_kKAeh6qyc

I see my Monty Python reference may have missed its mark [emoji38]

Simon
Sat



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Thank you Jundo

Gassho Kyotai
ST

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That's the Jundo I know! Welcome back. Dinner looked great (not).

Always good to sit with you teacher, learn from you, laugh with you, may it continue.

A Gassho with Joy
Doshin
st/lah

Thank you Jundo, well said.
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
my study and practice with you and the sangha has been very meaningful for me : Ango, Jukai, receiving a Dharma name and most of all, applying the teachings in everyday life. What is offered here is as valuable and real as any Zen Monastery that I have been to.

Gassho,
Jyúkatsu
sat today

Thanks, I like it when people speak their mind and are considered annoying by some other people. I have often experienced that that means that you should open your ears and shut down your prejudices because there might be something interesting going on.

Be well soon!

Gassho,
Stefan

SatToday

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Professsor

I see my Monty Python reference may have missed its mark [emoji38]

Simon
Sat

---

I got it. [morehappy]

Gassho
Byōkan
sat + lah

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byokan

I got it. [morehappy]

Gassho
Byōkan
sat + lah

---

Me too! :D

Gassho
Lucy
ST/LAH

Thank you Jundo. gassho2

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/LAH

I loved this! Good to see you.

Gassho, sat today, lah

Great to see you on form again Jundo.

I tried a home retreat once and managed 2 nights and three days in a shed at the bottom of the garden.
To be able to do 90 days is a joke if you are less priviledged in movements or have work or a family. Even a week is tricky and the costs can be really high.
So maybe setting up a way to deliver such an experience we can share can be a New Year's resolution?

I can only say that Treeleaf has changed my life for the better and that the kindness and love shared here has only gotten stronger over the years.
I am with Jundo, Jishin, Frankie and all of you on this.

Gassho
Heisok
S2D/ LAH

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This whole thing just sounds like a lot of middle-aged white guys (and some women) wanting to keep things Just Exactly the Way They Think They Should Be. Don't get me wrong; I'm a middle-aged white guy, as is Jundo, but (AFAIK) he doesn't have the BMW (nor do I).

As others have said, what does it matter? Is it important that there be equivalency between some upper-middle class Zen association and the rest of those who practice?

Part of their motivation could be the fact that they see people in Treeleaf, or others who follow former punk rockers (no disrespect to Brad; I think what he does is great), or Zen teachers with tattoos, and think that the safe little world they have created for themselves is under attack from the great unwashed.

Is it just a #MZGA thing? (Make Zen Great Again)

Ten years I've been hanging around Treeleaf, and there seems to be more honesty here than in a lot of other groups of people.

Gassho,

Kirk

Taken some time before watching the recording but so good to see you recovering. Being still relatively new to formal buddhist practice and the dharma, how these folk think they want to run "American Zen" with their rules, regulations and by the look of things outright discrimination is beyond me. What gives them the right in the first place ? Why does there need to be so much clamour to join thir club(s)? For that's what they look like to me, no different from the country club or golf club (boys especially in the UK!!). It reminds me a the Karate organisations in the UK, paper tigers, grabbing grades as quickly as possible to gravitate to positions of power, their lack of experience and knowledge diluting what the claim to protect. I walked away from my martial arts association, as I was being pressured to take my 4th dan but knew there were some katas I did not know and felt it would have been false of me to have taken that grading (which I was fully prepared for), so just walked away from the politics. And this is all this is politics.

Treeleaf proves that Zen (Soto whatever) can be all inclusive and open to all and that to me speaks volumes and because of my location and language barriers I would not be practicing if Jundo and Treeleaf had not been there. If these folks in the US want to play their power games all well and good but at the end of the day, places like Treeleaf can survive and grow without them. And to be honest these Associations by the sound of it would have me running in the opposite direction in the first place.

Rock the boat Jundo. Sometimes these people need to hear some hard facts and face reality (both sides) and not be so petty as to muzzle people like to with veiled threats.

My 2d - a currency popular when Sooty and Sweep were my heros!

STMIZ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jundo

One of the folks from the "mainstream" wrote me (not about you, but about my doctor example), that folks in the medical profession take vacations all the time for weddings and conferences and such. I said that that is not always so ...

In case you are wondering, one example of "new rules" is the following ...

This would be a 3-week to 90-day period that involves a 24-hour schedule of continuous practice.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

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Do 80 hour weeks in pediatric residencies count? Sesshin’s got nothing on the pediatric intensive care unit!

Gassho
Sat

Spooky.

Jundo I hope you don't mind me posting the rest of the article you quote above. Spooky as I was only just reading it again this morning and it was one of the many things that drew me to Treeleaf 16months ago. I would imagine there may be a few newer folk here who may not have seen it but I think it sits nicely with the Cancer Ango threads. And I believe it speaks volumes for what you and the Unsui are doing here.

http://sweepingzen.com/eight-ways-gu...-zen-buddhism/

Humble apologizes if this is a little presumptuous.[monk]

SZIZTM