Special reading - eight types of enlightenment

[Jundo]

Hi Ho,

Continuing this special series of "readings that will help in understanding Zen readings" ...

This is something that I introduced here once before, but is well worth re-reading and understanding by all of us.

The topic is a very clear list of "Eight Types of Enlightenment" as typically found in various forms of Buddhism over its history and currently, meaning the very different and often totally inconsistent (although sometimes overlapping) visions that various schools of Buddhism propose as the ultimate "goal" at the end of the Buddha's rainbow. Different strands of Buddhism really do have very unique ideas on this whole "Enlightenment" whatever, and anyone studying Buddhism can become tangled up in the many ways that teachers of various schools, in different books and teachings, often are proposing radically different goals and different ways to get there. Even within the Zen Schools, or even contained in the vision of a single teacher, the ideas often get mixed & matched and stuck together. Thus, it is important for students to be able to recognize where a teacher's teachings are coming from and pointing to (and neither/both coming & going), and some ability to see each of these separate, sometimes tangled threads.

Please download and read the following [PDF]:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zXzzhE5yFNLNHNh80sjiayFBlcX5ywlp/view?usp=sharing

The list is from a book called "The New Buddhism" by David Brazier (a book primarily on the theme of Buddhism as a model for engaged, socially conscious action ... but which also touches on other subjects such as this). What is also interesting is that Mr Brazier seems --not-- to be a Zen Practitioner (I believe he is currently a Pure Land student), and thus offers some criticisms of what he sees as the "Zen" concept(s) of Enlightenment. This will give us a chance to talk about those as well, although (of course, being from within the Zen tradition) I do not think many of his criticisms of "Zen enlightenment" are accurate. Naturally, he seems to propose a "Pure Land" concept of Enlightenment as the best.

Despite that, I really think you will find it informative, and helpful to your practice and understanding of Buddhist books and teachings.

As always, I emphasize ... different ways up the mountain for different mountaineers and, anyway, ultimately 'what mountain?' (though, as you may see, not everyone throughout Buddhist history might agree with that!)

Gassho, Jundo

[Tai Shi]

Over three years I questioned often, sometimes interjecting personal feelings and or histories, and now I am not an old timer but young and learning breath every time I sit, or to shift slightly, or to move my head to take pressure off while I sit. And I don’t question so much acceptance is the answer. Sit and more sit to this 66 year old youngster. Thanks to all who have taught me to sit still and yet be comfortable, to maintain some brand of humility. I don’t know everything and Usri and folks yes Lay members with years and years sitting have taught me to sit quietly and to sit.

Tai Shi
sat today
Gassho


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[MyoHo]

Thanks Jundo. Let's go to work with this and see what it will bring.

Gassho

MyoHo

[Jishin]

4919

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_ , LAH

[Shinshi]

Wow, a thread first started in 2009. Took a long time for the first response. :)

Gassho, Shinshi

#SaT #LaH

[Jakuden]

Wow, a thread first started in 2009. Took a long time for the first response. :)

Gassho, Shinshi

#SaT #LaH

I was thinking the same thing, Lol! I’m game, it looks like an interesting read!
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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[Jishin]

http://instant-enlightenment.com

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_ , LAH

[Jundo]

http://instant-enlightenment.com

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_ , LAH

gassho1

[Mitka]

Thank you, the article was very informative. I was expected the Ox-Herding Pictures but got a conceptual history of the idea of enlightenment in Buddhism instead. The author sure had a lot of negative things to say about Zen social ethics. I suppose he was being thorough. Anyways, it was a good read and I have a clearer sense of what the different tradtiions mean by enlightenment.

As for what I mean by enlightment... well, I will trust in my sitting. :D

gassho2

Matthew
Sattoday

[Shokai]

Thank you Jundo and Sekishi, wonderful to sit with all of you, Have a great week.

gassho, Shokai

stlah

[SNPII]

Hi Ho,

Continuing this special series of "readings that will help in understanding Zen readings" ...

This is something that I introduced here once before, but is well worth re-reading and understanding by all of us.

The topic is a very clear list of "Eight Types of Enlightenment" as typically found in various forms of Buddhism over its history and currently, meaning the very different and often totally inconsistent (although sometimes overlapping) visions that various schools of Buddhism propose as the ultimate "goal" at the end of the Buddha's rainbow. Different strands of Buddhism really do have very unique ideas on this whole "Enlightenment" whatever, and anyone studying Buddhism can become tangled up in the many ways that teachers of various schools, in different books and teachings, often are proposing radically different goals and different ways to get there. Even within the Zen Schools, or even contained in the vision of a single teacher, the ideas often get mixed & matched and stuck together. Thus, it is important for students to be able to recognize where a teacher's teachings are coming from and pointing to (and neither/both coming & going), and some ability to see each of these separate, sometimes tangled threads.

Please download and read the following [PDF]:

http://jundotreeleaf.googlepages.com/TypesofEnlightenment.pdf

The list is from a book called "The New Buddhism" by David Brazier (a book primarily on the theme of Buddhism as a model for engaged, socially conscious action ... but which also touches on other subjects such as this). What is also interesting is that Mr Brazier seems --not-- to be a Zen Practitioner (I believe he is currently a Pure Land student), and thus offers some criticisms of what he sees as the "Zen" concept(s) of Enlightenment. This will give us a chance to talk about those as well, although (of course, being from within the Zen tradition) I do not think many of his criticisms of "Zen enlightenment" are accurate. Naturally, he seems to propose a "Pure Land" concept of Enlightenment as the best.

Despite that, I really think you will find it informative, and helpful to your practice and understanding of Buddhist books and teachings.

As always, I emphasize ... different ways up the mountain for different mountaineers and, anyway, ultimately 'what mountain?' (though, as you may see, not everyone throughout Buddhist history might agree with that!)

Gassho, Jundo

I am often curious as to the different Buddhas over time? I see that this article here talks about Shakyamuni Buddha. I am more familiar with Gautama "Sid" Buddha? What are some of the more profound differences?

[Mp]

I am often curious as to the different Buddhas over time? I see that this article here talks about Shakyamuni Buddha. I am more familiar with Gautama "Sid" Buddha? What are some of the more profound differences?Shakyamuni Buddha is Gautama Buddha and Gautama Buddha is Shakyamuni Buddha. =)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_Buddha

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Jundo]

I see that this article here talks about Shakyamuni Buddha. I am more familiar with Gautama "Sid" Buddha? What are some of the more profound differences?

That is the same person. Shakyamuni means "sage of the Shakya tribe." The historical Buddha, believed to have lived some 2500 years ago. The Buddha's name, before his renunciation, was Siddhartha Gautama. Siddhartha seems to mean something like "finding what is sought." Gautama means something like "dispelling darkness."

Mahayana Buddhism also has countless other Buddhas, in every hair tip and grain of sand, as well as various bodies and emanations of Buddhas, and the Dharmakaya Buddha which is the Absolute beyond distinctions. These Buddhas stand for the deep interpenetration and sacredness of all things.

In a nutshell.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[SNPII]

Thanks All! I was talking to another monk I regularly converse with and he informed me the same thing. I missed the boat on that one for sure! So many names! I think I'll stick with Gautama and Sid. lol

Sattodaytwice
Shane

[Kokuu]

Hi all

This was very interesting and asked a few questions I have myself about enlightenment as it was proposed in early Buddhism.

One thing I disagree with David Brazier about (and I have commented about this on articles he has written for Buddhist journals) is the setting up of Zen as self-powered against the Pure Land faith in other power (specifically the power of Amida Buddha).

Whereas we do have a self, this self is entirely contigent on the 10 000 things. As the body and self drop away in zazen, what self is their left to be self-powered? Rather we let the 10 000 things flow through us.

Master Dogen is very clear about this point in Genjokoan:

"To carry yourself forward and experience myriad things is delusion. That myriad things come forth and experience themselves is awakening."

and:

"To study the buddha way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of realization remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly."

To suggest that Zen is purely self-powered completely misrepresents and misunderstands the tradition in my opinion.

When it comes to types of enlightenment, each of the eight theories seem to be one model of what is believed to be happening based on the notions of rebirth, karma and cosmology of the particular Buddhism in question. It is interesting to argue over them but in the end we can only find our way through practice, which is exactly what Dogen teaches. If you want to pray to Amida Buddha, go do that. If vipassana is your path, that is fine too. Our way is the practice enlightenment of shikantaza zazen and carrying forth the 10 000 things on and off the cushion.

As always, my understanding is that of a novice and should not be taken as definitive or reliable.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Jishin]

Hi,

You got enlightened. Now what?

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Kokuu]

You got enlightened. Now what?

Chop wood, carry water.

[Jishin]

Sounds good to me.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Mp]

Chop wood, carry water.Yuppers ... Chop wood, carry water before enlightenment; chop wood, carry water after enlightenment. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Kokuu]

Yuppers ... Chop wood, carry water before enlightenment; chop wood, carry water after enlightenment. =)

This may be why we attract so many Canadians! [morehappy]

[Mp]

This may be why we attract so many Canadians! [morehappy]You got that right ...eh!!! LOL=)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Shokai]

Although we do have a few spots where you look a little silly carrying your water bucket, eh

gassho, shokai

stlah

[Jishin]

51125113

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

There is no "enlightenment." Nobody to be enlightened either.

But if there was no realization and being enlightened, then what would be the point of Buddhist Practice and our being here? Turn of the lights, let's all go home. (A Koan) [monk]

Master Dogen's vision is "Practice-Enlightenment." A sample from my new book, whose manuscript I am just finishing ...

----------

It is said in the Soto tradition that Dogen [while still a young Tendai monk] became possessed of a great question regarding a core doctrine of the Tendai school: if, as it is taught there, all human beings are endowed with Buddha Nature and already possessed of enlightenment by birth, what need is there for any of us to nonetheless seek enlightenment by engaging in spiritual practice? This question arises in the Tendai concept of “Original Enlightenment,” which asserts that all sentient beings are already enlightened by original nature and, thus, any idea of working toward and achieving enlightenment by pursuing practices is flawed. It is this question which, it is said, caused Dogen to leave Mt. Hiei and seek other Teachers. From his later writings, we know that Dogen eventually came to the conclusion that, although we are originally “without flaw,” just as he had learned, we must nonetheless engage in ongoing Practice and polishing to constantly let that inherent flawlessness shine through. This became the cornerstone of Dogen’s emphasis on “Practice-Enlightenment” and “Continuous Practice.” ...



Zazen is not only about when we are seated on the sitting cushion. Dogen spoke of “Practice-Enlightenment” or “Continuous Practice,” which manifests enlightenment again and again. The meaning is very simple: the jewel of our Buddha Nature is always shining and flawless, but we must constantly polish it through our present actions free of excess desire, anger, divided thinking, and like mental states that cloud the mind and manifest unwholesomeness, in order to manifest that shine. The world is always just the world, but if we choose to fill it and our life with dissatisfaction, anger, jealousy, resentments, and like pollutants, then this world and life take on those tints. On the other hand, if we bring gentleness and peace into our hearts, then our life is colored with those thoughts and the world becomes a bit nicer. It is up to us in each thought, word, and action we take in life in each moment. We bring Buddha to life, here and now, in the way we live here and now.


Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Tairin]

The world is always just the world, but if we choose to fill it and our life with dissatisfaction, anger, jealousy, resentments, and like pollutants, then this world and life take on those tints. On the other hand, if we bring gentleness and peace into our hearts, then our life is colored with those thoughts and the world becomes a bit nicer. It is up to us in each thought, word, and action we take in life in each moment. We bring Buddha to life, here and now, in the way we live here and now.

Thank you for this. I came mostly to this same conclusion today while walking home for work. For reasons I don’t understand I’ve been in a bit of a mental funk for the past week. There’s no reason for it. As I was walking home I was stewing about stuff and I was finding myself getting angry. As I felt the anger rising I said to myself “I don’t want to feel this way any more, I want to be happy”. It was at that point that I realized the tint (to use Jundo’s word above) that anger was putting on my view of the day. I paused in my steps, looked around and tried to see the beauty of the world around me.

gassho2
Tairin
Sat today & LAH

[Tai Shi]

I left sitting, wondering if there was a Buddha. I had been searching for Buddha since summer 1971 when I began to read Herman Hesse. These readings brought me to Allen Watts and a book The Gospel According to Zen. There was the famaous Zen Mind, Beginner Mind, and I own a copy dating from 1975, so came lots of reading, but no practice. In 2011, or so, I began simple practices bassed on the few things I knew, then people questioned me on Facebook, and I began searching in earnest when I found Treeleaf Zendo. So, Jundo is this another history? Lately I've looked to teachings from childhood, but only I could make the choice to sit, sitting so the important teachings of my mother and father are not incompatible with Shikantaza, just sitting, in stillness of morning. Thus, my childhood memories intersect with breath I pass on to my daughter, that my father has passed on to me. For me, Buddha is breath sitting, and childhood simplicity.

Tai Shi
st today/lah
Gassho

[Jundo]

For me, Buddha is breath sitting, and childhood simplicity.



gassho1

[Hōkan]

The Google Site from the first post is missing. Any other sources for the document?

Sat

[Kaishin]

I searched a bit in vain (hopefully Jundo still has a copy stashed somewhere...), but did incidentally discover that the same author has published a translation of Genjokoan along with quite a bit of background material--there's a video interview with the author about it here as well. Not sure if it's of worth here:

https://www.windhorsepublications.com/product/the-dark-side-of-the-mirror-forgetting-the-self-in-dogens-genjo-koan-paperback/

-satToday

[Jundo]

I searched a bit in vain (hopefully Jundo still has a copy stashed somewhere...), but did incidentally discover that the same author has published a translation of Genjokoan along with quite a bit of background material--there's a video interview with the author about it here as well. Not sure if it's of worth here:

https://www.windhorsepublications.com/product/the-dark-side-of-the-mirror-forgetting-the-self-in-dogens-genjo-koan-paperback/

-satToday

I cannot recommend his book on Genjo Koan at all. Few books that I say that about. It is truly a quite tangled and very personal take by the author, coming from a Pure Land perspective that, I think, really obscures what Dogen was about there.

As to the old link to the top document, it should be fixed now. Here it is. If you have trouble to view and download, please let me know.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KGIENWKnsej4U1aNdB936FDeiVTTZLBm/view?usp=sharing

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Hōkan]

Thank you

Today I sat for the first time in the Free Sitting Room.

[Meian]

Thank you

Today I sat for the first time in the Free Sitting Room.Hello Hokan,

Great to know you were able to use the Free Sitting Room!

The Free Sitting Room -- or FSR, as we often call it -- is available to you any time, day or night.

The SSR, or Scheduled Sitting Room, is used for meetings, scheduled sittings, and other events that are listed in Treeleaf's calendar (found at the top left of the forum menu and here: https://www.treeleaf.org/now/#calendar)

In case it's useful.

Gassho, meian st lh

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Tai Shi]

I used the Free sitting room this afternoon because I had not sat in a few days and I needed to sit because I was reminded of grateful and good children.
Gassho
sat/ lah
Tai Shi


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Kaishin]

I cannot recommend his book on Genjo Koan at all. Few books that I say that about. It is truly a quite tangled and very personal take by the author, coming from a Pure Land perspective that, I think, really obscures what Dogen was about there.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Good to know! Although admittedly "Dogen from a Pure Land perspective" has piqued my curiosity... :p

-satToday

[Gareth]

Thanks for posting this. It was interesting, despite his quite different perspective - he is very funny in places.

Gassho,
Gareth

Sat today

[Timchenko_Oleg]

There is no "enlightenment." Nobody to be enlightened either.

But if there was no realization and being enlightened, then what would be the point of Buddhist Practice and our being here? Turn of the lights, let's all go home. (A Koan) [monk]

Master Dogen's vision is "Practice-Enlightenment." A sample from my new book, whose manuscript I am just finishing ...

----------

It is said in the Soto tradition that Dogen [while still a young Tendai monk] became possessed of a great question regarding a core doctrine of the Tendai school: if, as it is taught there, all human beings are endowed with Buddha Nature and already possessed of enlightenment by birth, what need is there for any of us to nonetheless seek enlightenment by engaging in spiritual practice? This question arises in the Tendai concept of “Original Enlightenment,” which asserts that all sentient beings are already enlightened by original nature and, thus, any idea of working toward and achieving enlightenment by pursuing practices is flawed. It is this question which, it is said, caused Dogen to leave Mt. Hiei and seek other Teachers. From his later writings, we know that Dogen eventually came to the conclusion that, although we are originally “without flaw,” just as he had learned, we must nonetheless engage in ongoing Practice and polishing to constantly let that inherent flawlessness shine through. This became the cornerstone of Dogen’s emphasis on “Practice-Enlightenment” and “Continuous Practice.” ...



Zazen is not only about when we are seated on the sitting cushion. Dogen spoke of “Practice-Enlightenment” or “Continuous Practice,” which manifests enlightenment again and again. The meaning is very simple: the jewel of our Buddha Nature is always shining and flawless, but we must constantly polish it through our present actions free of excess desire, anger, divided thinking, and like mental states that cloud the mind and manifest unwholesomeness, in order to manifest that shine. The world is always just the world, but if we choose to fill it and our life with dissatisfaction, anger, jealousy, resentments, and like pollutants, then this world and life take on those tints. On the other hand, if we bring gentleness and peace into our hearts, then our life is colored with those thoughts and the world becomes a bit nicer. It is up to us in each thought, word, and action we take in life in each moment. We bring Buddha to life, here and now, in the way we live here and now.


Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

gassho1

[Tobiishi]

There's 30 minutes of my life I won't get back.

I believe Mr. Brazier's use of the phrase "...typically skillful Buddhist manoeuvre..." sums up his philosophy (at the time of this writing, anyway,) and prompted me to look him up on Amazon so I could make a mental note of books not to buy. I'll have to sit an extra few minutes tonight to get the taste out of my brain.

Kodo Tobiishi sat today, lent a hand
Gassho

[Tai Do]

Just found this thread and became very interested in what are these eight types of enlightenment. I couldn’t found the text, though; what I found on Google Books doesn’t allow to read past the fiesta pages of the chapter on them. Does anybody have a list of them or know were I can read more about?
Gassho,
Mateus
Satlah

[Jundo]

Just found this thread and became very interested in what are these eight types of enlightenment. I couldn’t found the text, though; what I found on Google Books doesn’t allow to read past the fiesta pages of the chapter on them. Does anybody have a list of them or know were I can read more about?
Gassho,
Mateus
Satlah

I repaired the link in the OP, Mateus.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

[Tai Do]

Thanks, Jundo!
Gassho,
Mateus
Satlah

[Hōzan]

Thank you - interesting read! :)
I have read parts of it so far and feel he is missing a crucial point (?): even though you have different descriptions of enlightenment, it doesn't mean that there are different types of enlightenment.
Ask a bunch of people to describe 'spring' and you'll get many different answers, as you will when trying to describe the ultimate/ direct experience with concepts.

Michael
gassho2 stlh

[Tai Do]

I agree with Michael that different accounts of Enlightenment are not the same as different types of Enlightenment; they are different ways of describing that which cannot be described.

I also found the text kind of leaning towards Pure Land views (not that they are bad, being a Nembutsu practitioner myself). But he seems to leave aside the fact that many more philosophical accounts of Pure Land seems to view Amida as our Buddha-nature and the Pure Land as the Pure Mind.

Also, the author seems to view non-duality as the same as monism. But in the Sandokai we chant every Monthly Zazenkai we are presented with non-duality as “not one (monism), not two (dualism). Furthermore, non-duality is not opposite of affirmation of the reality of each phenomena (I remember here of the Dharma Talk Jundo gave about dharma position, hoi).

The author seems to view nirvana as the causal result of dependent origination. But, if I’m not wrong, dependent origination presents the causality of dhukka, not nirvana. The earliest pali texts, if I’m not again wrong, present Nirvana as unconditioned; so, clearly not the result of causality and in plain agreement teachings such Buddha-nature, original Enlightenment and practice-realization.

This has other implications as the author believes non-duality goes against causality. No Buddhist text I know, especially not a Thich Nhat Hahn’s one, defends that interbeing or interflow is the opposite of causality. One can defend a common Source for all phenomena without discarding causality — Western philosophers have done this for millennia and so have Eastern ones. So we can say that Emptiness or Buddha-nature pervades everything without denying causality.

On the other hand, his presentation makes clear the different flavors and presentations of Buddhist Enlightenment.

Gassho,
Mateus
Satlah

[Jundo]

I agree with Michael that different accounts of Enlightenment are not the same as different types of Enlightenment; they are different ways of describing that which cannot be described.

I also found the text kind of leaning towards Pure Land views (not that they are bad, being a Nembutsu practitioner myself). But he seems to leave aside the fact that many more philosophical accounts of Pure Land seems to view Amida as our Buddha-nature and the Pure Land as the Pure Mind.

Also, the author seems to view non-duality as the same as monism. But in the Sandokai we chant every Monthly Zazenkai we are presented with non-duality as “not one (monism), not two (dualism). Furthermore, non-duality is not opposite of affirmation of the reality of each phenomena (I remember here of the Dharma Talk Jundo gave about dharma position, hoi).

The author seems to view nirvana as the causal result of dependent origination. But, if I’m not wrong, dependent origination presents the causality of dhukka, not nirvana. The earliest pali texts, if I’m not again wrong, present Nirvana as unconditioned; so, clearly not the result of causality and in plain agreement teachings such Buddha-nature, original Enlightenment and practice-realization.

This has other implications as the author believes non-duality goes against causality. No Buddhist text I know, especially not a Thich Nhat Hahn’s one, defends that interbeing or interflow is the opposite of causality. One can defend a common Source for all phenomena without discarding causality — Western philosophers have done this for millennia and so have Eastern ones. So we can say that Emptiness or Buddha-nature pervades everything without denying causality.

On the other hand, his presentation makes clear the different flavors and presentations of Buddhist Enlightenment.

Gassho,
Mateus
Satlah

Thank you. I enjoyed reading these insights, Mat. gassho2

Gassho, J

stlah

[Seiko]

David Brazier's interest in Zen seems to be linked to his work in UK as a psychotherapist. He founded and leads The Amida Order - http://www.amidashu.org/

I have nothing much to say about enlightenment. I have my internal dialogue a million times a day, trying to make the right choices, it keeps me busy.

Seiko
stlah

[Tai Do]

Thank you for the resource, Seiko.
Gassho,
Tai Do (Mateus)
Satlah

[Kaitan]

Interesting thread, indeed, talking about enlightenment seems soooo ambiguous since language is already the use of abstractions subject to particular interpretations, regardless of the conventional definitions. And so what I understand so far is that enlightenment tries to explain something that cannot be explained in words, but you have to say something. Reminds me a book from Katagiri Roshi that goes like that.

Sorry for running long and rambling

Gasshō

SatToday

Bernal

[Kaitan]

I came back to this text a read it all this afternoon. I like the broad description of the different Buddhist schools of thought. As mentioned here in the comments he is bias towards Pure Land. Nevertheless, enjoyed reading a critical view of Zen Buddhism, knowing he hasn't been in direct contact with it. I noticed that he might have discarded the figure of bodhisattva in Chinese Buddhism, am I right? Again, it's always enriching for me to hear different points of view.

Gasshō

stlah

Bernal