Zafu to chair transition

[EricR]

I know this might seem trivial, but as the condition of my back and knees continue to deteriorate,
I'm considering going to a chair for zazen.
Any advice? I've been on the zafu since '10.

[Koushi]

Hi Eric,

From my experience, the only real advice I can give is to sit closer to the edge of the chair, if possible, rather than leaning back or slumping in it, to help maintain good posture as you would on the zafu. Having a chair that's more ergonomic helps as well, especially if you have any type of back condition.

However, if need arises that you require sitting all the way back or in a more reclined position, that's OK too, we sit how we need to sit—even if that means reclining.

I'll leave the rest to others who I'm sure have much better advice than this :)

Gassho,
Koushi
STLaH

[EricR]

Thank you very much! gassho2

[Kokuu]

From my experience, the only real advice I can give is to sit closer to the edge of the chair, if possible, rather than leaning back or slumping in it, to help maintain good posture as you would on the zafu. Having a chair that's more ergonomic helps as well, especially if you have any type of back condition.

Good advice from Koushi.

I rarely sit in a chair to practice but have to modify my sitting in other ways to work around physical illness. For me, the most important thing is for your Zazen posture not to strain your body or cause you any more than mild discomfort at times.

Since you have been sitting on a zafu for over a decade, it may well feel odd at first to be sitting in a new position, but it sounds necessary and our minds adjust pretty quickly for the most part.

One final thing is that most of the pictures we see of people meditating are in traditional zafu-based postures. However, sitting on a chair and even laying down if necessary, is equally valid for people whose body cannot sit comfortably on a cushion. It is in no way a reflection of your practice.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Nengei]

For the change you describe, I suggest trying a firm chair and putting your zafu on it. This will allow you to rest comfortably with your feet flat on the floor, your knees slightly extended, your pelvis slightly tilted forward (like sitting on the floor), and your back away from the back of the chair. From the waist up, it is like sitting on the floor. I learned to sit this way at a monastery and it has served me well when I am unable to sit in an on-the-floor position. Seats of chairs often tilt backwards, and somehow the back position never works out very well for zazen.

Gassho,
Nengei
Sat today. LAH.

[Jundo]

Our Guide to Basic Sitting (PDF) has a section with recommendations on chair sitting, and please have a look.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N7VMqfb1nG19gQBagt5DBLIwBu4oAaCS/view?usp=sharing

As always, if a posture feels balanced, stable and comfortable, allowing one to sit for long periods while forgetting the body, "payin' the body no nevermind" :encouragement:, then it is most likely a good posture. You know your body best.

Very good advice from others above: It is best to sit upright, not slump, with the breathing natural, deep and unrestricted, the head upright, with the back neither slumping nor too rigidly upright. Best is "upright but relaxed." Feet should rest nicely on the floor. Generally, unless there is real medical need, we do not lean on the back of the chair, and sit on the forward half of the chair (although the Zafu may sometimes be placed between your back and the back of the chair for a little support).

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

PS - Even Buddha had back problems (true, according to old Sutta descriptions) and sometimes sat in a chair ...


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/078_Cave_12%2C_Buddha_sitting_with_Legs_Down_%2834 022971291%29.jpg/320px-078_Cave_12%2C_Buddha_sitting_with_Legs_Down_%2834 022971291%29.jpg

[EricR]

You all are awesome! Thank you for the replies. I tried sitting in a chair for this evening's session and it was...different. It will take some getting used to for sure, but it's good to know I have something in common with the Buddha! [morehappy]

I'm going to incorporate it slowly but I'm also going to order a taller zafu for floor sitting to see if that helps.
(sorry to run long)

[Jundo]

You all are awesome! Thank you for the replies. I tried sitting in a chair for this evening's session and it was...different. It will take some getting used to for sure, but it's good to know I have something in common with the Buddha! [morehappy]

I'm going to incorporate it slowly but I'm also going to order a taller zafu for floor sitting to see if that helps.
(sorry to run long)

Are you a big guy? Then a big Zafu can help. If you are going to do a cross-legged posture, however, like the Half Lotus or Burmese, you need to get those knees resting nicely on the ground, giving nice support. Sit on the front half of the Zafu, spine just slightly forward of the central point, with the Zafu becoming a wedge under you. It is explained in the guide I linked to above. Also consider Seiza with a Seiza Bench, a largely western innovation that is quite balanced, stable and comfortable for many folks.

By the way ... Eric ... since you have been a member here for awhile now, would you do me a favor? Would you mind to sign a human first name to your posts, and sign "sattoday" or the like to indicate that you sat within the past day? It helps keep things a little more human and focused on practice around here. Thanks.

"SatToday"
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12995-SatToday-Make-sure-you-have-sat-before-joining-in-forum-chat%21

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[EricR]

Are you a big guy? Then a big Zafu can help. If you are going to do a cross-legged posture, however, like the Half Lotus or Burmese, you need to get those knees resting nicely on the ground, giving nice support. Sit on the front half of the Zafu, spine just slightly forward of the central point, with the Zafu becoming a wedge under you. It is explained in the guide I linked to above. Also consider Seiza with a Seiza Bench, a largely western innovation that is quite balance, stable and comfortable for many folks.

By the way ... Eric ... since you have been a member here for awhile now, would you do me a favor? Would you mind to sign a human first name to your posts, and sign "sattoday" or the like to indicate that you sat within the past day? It helps keep things a little more human and focused on practice around here. Thanks.

"SatToday"
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12995-SatToday-Make-sure-you-have-sat-before-joining-in-forum-chat%21

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

I am a big guy. The flexibility is still there, but the knees have started to complain quite loudly. I really appreciate the help and links, they are a tremendous resource and a great reminder of some of habits I've let slide away in the past few years.

"SatToday"

Gassho, Eric

[Ryumon]

I switch between a zafu and a chair or stool. One thing that is helpful is to have a sitting surface that tilts forward a bit. This helps keep you from slumping, and keeps the spine dynamic.

I used to take a piece of wood and put it under two legs of a four-legged stool, enough to give it a slight tilt.

A seat like this is even better, because the height is adjustable and it’s not rigid:

https://en.aeris.de/products/aeris-muvman-wollmischung-select-schwarz


Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

[Onrin]

Unsolicited advice, I know, so forgive in advance, but in most cases I've found (working as a trainer) something can be done to improve back and knee health.
I've had a person with knee and hip replacements, and history of spinal surgery seek help in wanting to get back sitting zazen, and indeed he got there. As well as be able to walk better etc...That said, I don't know your situation at all, but would be happy to suggest resources if you are interested.
Gassho,
Chris

[Ryumon]

I just saw that Tricycle magazine is holding an online workshop about sitting and posture. I’ve read the book by the person who is giving the workshops; it’s good, though there is some room for criticism. You’ll find discussions of the book if you search the forum.

https://tricycle.org/postureofmeditation/

Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

[EricR]

Thank you both! It's been recommended that at least one, but probably both knees be replaced as well as back surgery. I'm just not ready to go down that path yet.

Gassho,
Eric
SatToday

[Meian]

Thank you both! It's been recommended that at least one, but probably both knees be replaced as well as back surgery. I'm just not ready to go down that path yet.

Gassho,
Eric
SatTodayHi Eric,

My father is in a similar situation as you are -- not with zazen, but he has no cartilage remaining in his knees (bone on bone), and degenerative disk disease in his spine. He is a "prime candidate" for knee replacement, but has decided not to pursue for now. We have a "special chair" in our home that we reserve for him, easier to manage sitting and standing.

Personally, I have not used a zafu in a few years due to worsening joint problems and inflammatory arthritis. I generally do recline or sit on a firm chair with a hard back. Due to scoliosis I am unable to 'sit up straight' without significant pain and breathing problems, so I do sit back -- but that's me.

It can take some time to determine what postures and sitting surfaces work best -- and it's possible to have different sitting arrangements for different days, or if some days are more painful than others. I think we each must find what allows us to sit with minimal discomfort in the case of illness and disability, and what also will not make our conditions worse.

This is only my experience and what I've learned here from others over time -- I am no expert.

My apologies for many sentences. [emoji120]

Gassho
st

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[houst0n]

I've seen some older folks using these sorts of things https://www.walmart.com/ip/DRAGONN-by-VIVO-Ergonomic-Adjustable-Kneeling-Chair-for-Home-Office-Black-DN-CH-K01B/872760341 -- and I definitely plan to try them out when my knees finally have had enough. As Jundo says, a higher zafu makes a big difference if the problem is with your hips :}

Gassho,
Sat
Neil

[Ryumon]

I've seen some older folks using these sorts of things https://www.walmart.com/ip/DRAGONN-by-VIVO-Ergonomic-Adjustable-Kneeling-Chair-for-Home-Office-Black-DN-CH-K01B/872760341 -- and I definitely plan to try them out when my knees finally have had enough. As Jundo says, a higher zafu makes a big difference if the problem is with your hips :}

Gassho,
Sat
Neil

Be very careful with those knee chairs. I had one for many years. They’re great if you know how to sit in them; if not, you slouch easily. Also, they have to be the right size fit your body; the one in the photo looks too small for the person sitting in it.

I had one like this and used it for more than ten years, it was my work chair, I literally wore out the cushions. They were too expensive to replace.

https://www.design-mkt.com/94434-duo-balance-lounge-chair-by-peter-opsvik-for-stokke-kneeling-chair.html

It had the advantage of allowing you to be in your knees, and also lean back. If you can sit correctly, they’re great.


Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

[Jundo]

I just saw that Tricycle magazine is holding an online workshop about sitting and posture. I’ve read the book by the person who is giving the workshops; it’s good, though there is some room for criticism. You’ll find discussions of the book if you search the forum.

https://tricycle.org/postureofmeditation/

Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

Oh, Will Johnson's book, the "Posture of Meditation" is very much recommended in this Sangha. You can read my review here:

Book Recommendation: - THE POSTURE OF MEDITATION
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6913-Book-Recommendation-THE-POSTURE-OF-MEDITATION&highlight=posture+johnson

It is all about finding the balanced, stable, comfortable posture(s) (because they change with time) right for your own body, while knowing your own body.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[michaelw]

Eric just going through the same process as sitting seiza on my custom tall bench is putting too much pressure on my left knee. I started cycling again but couldn't possibly be a link?
I tried going back to a sideways zafu but that didn't work. One thing I have seen but not tried is a sturdy belt round the centre of a zafu to make it taller and hopefully not give that sinking feeling as the filling moves while sitting.
Other than that a zafu on a chair works as it gives me support to get my spine straight(er) from my natural hunched position.

gassho
M

sat