Zen Sports: Martial Arts

[Ekai]

Just wondering if there are any judokas here or other martial arts practitioners. If so, how has zazen helped your training? Do you find both practices overlap? Does it help to gain a deeper understanding of your practices?

I definitely feel zazen helps with my Judo. In Judo, you have to feel in order to do the techniques correctly. To feel, means many hours, weeks, and years of practice to develop. But it also requires to only do Judo when you are doing Judo. You have to be one with the technique versus thinking about it. All your being must in the Dojo without your mind elsewhere. It is doing and non-doing. You also have to commit to your techniques. You can't half asked a throw lol. If you don't commit, you'll either get hurt or hurt your Uki (partner).

I also find that Judo helps me with my zazen. I understand (a little) more about zazen. Movement practices helps me to see how zazen works on the zafu and off into the "real" world. Plus, the Japanese culture in both Judo and zazen allows me to appreciate the traditions and history. The connection between the two definitely makes it easier on my mind. With zazen, it takes commitment, time, humbleness, and practice being at oneness. I learn these both by sitting on the zafu and practicing my ogoshi (hip throw).

Gassho,
Ekai

SAT

[Onrin]

I used to practice Judo (at UW Madison, later renamed the UW budo club) among other arts, but that was long before I began practicing zen. However I agree they can be mutually beneficial, as it can with any physical practice.

For me the benefit comes mainly in keeping perspective on not getting wrapped up in achieving something at the expense of my health and that of others. in Judo that might mean not turning randori into a competition, being a good training partner, tapping not snapping etc...
Gassho,
Chris

[Ekai]

For me the benefit comes mainly in keeping perspective on not getting wrapped up in achieving something at the expense of my health and that of others. in Judo that might mean not turning randori into a competition, being a good training partner, tapping not snapping etc...
Gassho,
Chris

I totally agree. It's about helping others as well and watching the mind to make sure to don't get caught up in the desire of winning at the expense of hurting others. It also helps me to be aware of my body and limitations. I used to go really hard no matter how I felt or what injury I had. Well, of course injury is a great lesson and I learned the hard way by overtraining and hurting my shoulder. Now I bring more awareness into my body and stop when things don't feel right or modify training if I have injury. It's humbling but in a good way. Another lesson in impermanence. Every is always changing and that includes our bodies. As I get older, I must adapt to. stay healthy and to continue training.

BTW, I live an hour south of Madison, WI.

Gassho,
Ekai

SAT

[Onrin]

Indeed, most of my job as a exercise coach is helping people to really come to grips that they do better adjusting their exercise and hobbies to their state today, and forget about what they could do 10 years ago or 10 days ago. Because they could throw the football over those mountains over there has no bearing on today ;)
WI seems to have had a good judo scene for many decades. The legendary Donn Draeger started out near Milwaukee. Like him, now I'm in Japan, and pretty close to where he lived.

[Heitou]

I don't practice judo, but I do practice Aikido and Ryu Te (formerly Ryu Kyu Kempo) from Master Oyata. We usually sit zazen for 5 or 10 mins before starting so for me they go together. It does help you be more aware of your body and I'm always more relaxed after and that helps me concentrate on what I'm doing. From what I understand Zen has been a part of Japanese Martial Arts for hundreds of years,, even Samurai studied Zen. I also practice Tai Chi.

Gassho
Heitou
SatToday

[Ekai]

I don't practice judo, but I do practice Aikido and Ryu Te (formerly Ryu Kyu Kempo) from Master Oyata. We usually sit zazen for 5 or 10 mins before starting so for me they go together. It does help you be more aware of your body and I'm always more relaxed after and that helps me concentrate on what I'm doing. From what I understand Zen has been a part of Japanese Martial Arts for hundreds of years,, even Samurai studied Zen. I also practice Tai Chi.

Gassho
Heitou
SatToday

They teach Aikido at my martial arts school. I did try it for a bit but then chose Judo instead. Aikido is a beautiful martial art. Challenging but effective as well. I mostly do a Korean art, KiMudo. The Judo and Aikido are add-ons at my martial arts School. But taking a Japanese martial art greatly improved my Kimudo and Zazen practice. I like how the Japanese arts is more about harmony in your techniques. You can take the harmony with you outside the Dojo.

Gassho,
Ekai

SAT

[yuridayananda]

I practiced martial arts for many years and that ultimately brought me to Buddhism then Zen. In the past it was Hapkido and today it is Brazilian jiu-jitsu. I still find easier to be in the moment when someone is trying to choke me than sitting alone with my thoughts.
Gassho,
Yuri

[Heiso]

I used to practice BJJ and now just practice judo. I think I'd agree Kurisu in that my zen practice possibly helps me not become too attached to outcomes such as trying to 'win' every round of randori, be the best student, or becoming wrapped up in trying to execute the perfect technique.

I'd also challenge anyone to not be fully in the moment when practicing newaza or BJJ!

Gassho,

Heiso

StLah

[Ekai]

I used to practice BJJ and now just practice judo. I think I'd agree Kurisu in that my zen practice possibly helps me not become too attached to outcomes such as trying to 'win' every round of randori, be the best student, or becoming wrapped up in trying to execute the perfect technique.

I'd also challenge anyone to not be fully in the moment when practicing newaza or BJJ!

Gassho,

Heiso

StLah

I agree there! If you are not in the moment, the technique fails or you will get hurt. Or tapped out lol.

Gassho,
Ekai

SAT

[Ekai]

I practiced martial arts for many years and that ultimately brought me to Buddhism then Zen. In the past it was Hapkido and today it is Brazilian jiu-jitsu. I still find easier to be in the moment when someone is trying to choke me than sitting alone with my thoughts.
Gassho,
Yuri

It seems martial arts brings many people to Zen.

And yes, it is easier being in the moment in the midst of a choke and not be freaked out about it lol.

Gassho,
Ekai

SAT

[yuridayananda]

It seems martial arts brings many people to Zen.

And yes, it is easier being in the moment in the midst of a choke and not be freaked out about it lol.

Gassho,
Ekai

SAT

Hi Ekai, I risk to say that I found Zen in the martial arts, before I knew what it was. The empty mind feeling was something that causes me pleasure, relief. Today I learned that it is wrong "to get" something out of it but perhaps I am just a better fighter than meditator. Sometimes during a fight I feel the time to stop, while I see the other fighter thinking. As you said, I feel where the pressure is and where to take the opponent. Out of the mat is my problem, I do Zazen because my mind is very unbalanced if I am not in war. Shame on me, but that's who I am now.

[Seiga]

For me, I chose the path of kendo. I can't say which came first - the interest in Zen or in Kendo. But I feel a kind of Zen spirit in kendo. There is no before, no after. There is only this moment and the decision I make now. In the best case, with mushin. And there is, in the depth of kendo, no opposition. Even in combat, my opponent is and remains constantly connected to me. I am him and he is me.

Gasshō
Seiga

[Fredrik]

For me, I chose the path of kendo. I can't say which came first - the interest in Zen or in Kendo. But I feel a kind of Zen spirit in kendo. There is no before, no after. There is only this moment and the decision I make now. In the best case, with mushin. And there is, in the depth of kendo, no opposition. Even in combat, my opponent is and remains constantly connected to me. I am him and he is me.

Gasshō
Seiga

As a fellow kendo practitioner I totally agree.

We also usually sit zazen before and after practice. The length usually varies depending on who is leading the training.

Gasshō,
Fredrik

SatToday

[Onrin]

There has been a reappraising of zen's supposed connection to martial arts by various MA scholars, and the consensus is there never really was much of one, formally. Some concepts were borrowed perhaps, and definitely can be complementary.

Unrelated, but since beginning to practice zen I've become less interested in studying MA again formally. I figure 30 years spent on MA practice is enough, I'm likely never going to have to fight anyone, and it was not doing my body any favors anymore. Zen, for me, gets at things in a richer, deeper way. But I can only say that I suppose because of all the good MA teachers and partners I've had that have helped me along the way and see there are many more things to learn.
Gassho,
Chris

[Heiso]

There has been a reappraising of zen's supposed connection to martial arts by various MA scholars, and the consensus is there never really was much of one, formally. Some concepts were borrowed perhaps, and definitely can be complementary.

Unrelated, but since beginning to practice zen I've become less interested in studying MA again formally. I figure 30 years spent on MA practice is enough, I'm likely never going to have to fight anyone, and it was not doing my body any favors anymore. Zen, for me, gets at things in a richer, deeper way. But I can only say that I suppose because of all the good MA teachers and partners I've had that have helped me along the way and see there are many more things to learn.
Gassho,
Chris

When I got interested in Buddhism it was my background in Japanese MA initially drew me to zen. But I think I quickly realised the link between the two was a bit of a myth. I'm wondering how much longer I'll continue with judo and maybe switching to Qigong/Taichi, I've no real interest in competition, but then my sensei is 84 and still on the mats!

Gassho,

Heiso

StLah

[Jundo]

When I got interested in Buddhism it was my background in Japanese MA initially drew me to zen. But I think I quickly realised the link between the two was a bit of a myth. I'm wondering how much longer I'll continue with judo and maybe switching to Qigong/Taichi, I've no real interest in competition, but then my sensei is 84 and still on the mats!

Gassho,

Heiso

StLah

I like to say that almost any action ... martial arts, flower arranging, tea ceremony, tennis, football, bowling, changing the oil for the car, diaper changing, photocopying ... can be made an art, and Shikantaza, with the right mindset of action in bodymind, free of goals, letting the moment perfectly be that moment, etc. etc.

Yes, the history of the connection between Zen, Samurai and martial arts may be a bit romanticized and misunderstood (below is an article on the topic, and I am now reading a book by the same scholar), but on the other (empty) hand, any martial art can be Shikantaza in motion. I have discussed this many times with my wife, Mina, who is a 4th Dan blackbelt in Aikido. Her Aikido, even though the art of Aikido was not particularly based on Zen teachings overtly, is a form of Zazen in motion for her.

https://apjjf.org/2016/17/Benesch.html

By the way, if it is okay, I am changing the name of the thread to Zen Sports: Martial Arts, as the discussion includes many martial arts.

Gassho, Jundo

STLAH
Sorry to run long

[Ekai]

When I got interested in Buddhism it was my background in Japanese MA initially drew me to zen. But I think I quickly realised the link between the two was a bit of a myth. I'm wondering how much longer I'll continue with judo and maybe switching to Qigong/Taichi, I've no real interest in competition, but then my sensei is 84 and still on the mats!

Gassho,

Heiso

StLah

I don't compete in Judo either. Too many injuries. I am single mom and need to take care of myself to care of my son. I am in a Korean martial art too but most of my injuries have been from judo. But I still love Judo and all that it teaches. That is great your sensei still teaches at 84!

Also, most martial artists I know are not Buddhists. Even the instructors. So that validates the point of the link between the two are exaggerated. For me however, I discovered the two simultaneously. Now they work together hand in hand.

Gassho,
Ekai

SAT

[Ekai]

By the way, if it is okay, I am changing the name of the thread to Zen Sports: Martial Arts, as the discussion includes many martial arts.

Gassho, Jundo

STLAH
Sorry to run long

Thank you! That is a great idea.

Gassho,
Ekai

SAT

[Heiso]

I like to say that almost any action ... martial arts, flower arranging, tea ceremony, tennis, football, bowling, changing the oil for the car, diaper changing, photocopying ... can be made an art, and Shikantaza, with the right mindset of action in bodymind, free of goals, letting the moment perfectly be that moment, etc. etc.

Yes, the history of the connection between Zen, Samurai and martial arts may be a bit romanticized and misunderstood (below is an article on the topic, and I am now reading a book by the same scholar), but on the other (empty) hand, any martial art can be Shikantaza in motion. I have discussed this many times with my wife, Mina, who is a 4th Dan blackbelt in Aikido. Her Aikido, even though the art of Aikido was not particularly based on Zen teachings overtly, is a form of Zazen in motion for her.

https://apjjf.org/2016/17/Benesch.html

By the way, if it is okay, I am changing the name of the thread to Zen Sports: Martial Arts, as the discussion includes many martial arts.

Gassho, Jundo

STLAH
Sorry to run long

Yes, the practice of martial arts can be a beautiful harmonisation (or dropping away) of body-mind, particularly when working with a partner in randori or sparring. As I mentioned in my previous post, I challenge anyone to not be fully alive and present in the moment as someone (possibly a very good friend) tries to strangle you! My reference to myth was very much in the spirit of that article and how swordmanship, zen and bushido were supposedly intertwined.

Gassho,

Heiso

StLah

[Seiga]

I like to say that almost any action ... martial arts, flower arranging, tea ceremony, tennis, football, bowling, changing the oil for the car, diaper changing, photocopying ... can be made an art, and Shikantaza, with the right mindset of action in bodymind, free of goals, letting the moment perfectly be that moment, etc. etc.

Yes, the history of the connection between Zen, Samurai and martial arts may be a bit romanticized and misunderstood (below is an article on the topic, and I am now reading a book by the same scholar), but on the other (empty) hand, any martial art can be Shikantaza in motion. I have discussed this many times with my wife, Mina, who is a 4th Dan blackbelt in Aikido. Her Aikido, even though the art of Aikido was not particularly based on Zen teachings overtly, is a form of Zazen in motion for her.

https://apjjf.org/2016/17/Benesch.html

By the way, if it is okay, I am changing the name of the thread to Zen Sports: Martial Arts, as the discussion includes many martial arts.

Gassho, Jundo

STLAH
Sorry to run long

If anything taught me to live in the moment, it was changing nappies late at night. :-)

Gasshō
Seiga

SatToday

[CS]

Good morning (at least from Alabama) This is my first post here at Treeleaf, and it's nice to find a place where I might find some serious martial arts practitioners who sit zazen!

My two cents:
I've trained in martial arts since I was 9 (it was 1983, so you can figure my age [happy]). I have a 4th degree black belt in Isshinryu Karate-Do, and a black belt in Tang Soo Do and TKD.
As a young man training in Isshinryu (once I reached the "adult" class at about 13 or 14 years of age), we always sat zazen for a few minutes at the end of each class. My sensei gave no instructions other than to "think not thinking" and attain Mushin. Interestingly enough, I heard about mushin - or "no-mind" - in every karate class, so I expected it to be common to all Zen practice, only to discover it was a word seldom, if ever, used by most Zen teachers in America.

So, YES, Zen and the link between Japanese/Okinawan martial arts might be a bit romanticized, but it was also very much a part of my training, and I have a feeling it's the same for most practitioners of the various styles of Karate within Japan. But it's more like the way we pray before every meal here in the Deep South of the US. You do it all the time, but you don't really pay attention to the words, or (in some cases) really care about it. It's just something you "do" as part of your tradition.

Now, interestingly enough, once I began training in Korean martial arts, I actually found it to be more "Zen", if you like. Which might just be the grandmaster that I train under, I don't know, but "mudo" (Korean equivalent of Japanese "budo"), is emphasized more there than in the Japanese/Okinawan traditions I trained under before (including kyokushinkai). I've wondered about this lately, but it could be because the Seon (Zen) form of Buddhism in Korea is essentially the only traditional form of Buddhism practiced in Korea (there are, of course, newer "traditions" such as Won Buddhism, but that's for another thread).

[Gareth]

My main martial art has been boxing. It is not something that I would start now, and it has tormented me a bit, but I have been going to the same club for over 10 years. Before that, I was into other martial arts. With big gloves, and with sparring pausing a little after a clean punch, it is really rare that someone is hurt. Still, and apologies for going over three, it sometimes does not feel like something a Buddhist should do.

Gassho,
Gareth

Sat today, Lah

[ZenKen]

I practiced Shotokan Karate for about 13 years before my dojo closed down a decade ago. I still miss it (clinging, I know, but it's true), and I hope to find a replacement dojo when we move house in the next couple of years. I think I came to zen and MA at about the same time, and we also sat zazen for a few minutes at the end of every session - and also, if we hurt someone during sparring, protocol dictated we immediately sat seiza with our backs to our opponent until they were recovered. I found the state of mind while practising kata to be exactly the same to that of zazen.

Sorry to run long
Gassho
ZenKen/Anna