Zazen of the Body or Zazen of the Mind?

[Jundo]

Is Zazen of the mind or of the body?

Zazen is the mind which is just the body, the body which is thoroughly the mind, the bodymind which is the whole universe moving, the whole universe which is moving the mindbody ... my body which is moving your mind, all minds which move my body ... just moving moving moving ... sitting sitting sitting.

That answers the question.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Ryumon]

It's not the mind, it's not the body; it's the flag.

Gassho,

Ryūmon

sat

[Kotei]

Zazen contains the mind and the body.
Sitting and moving, silence and singing.
The universe breathing.

Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

[Inshin]

So is everything consciousness only and matter, the way we perceive it, an illusion?

Gassho
Sat

[Jundo]

So is everything consciousness only and matter, the way we perceive it, an illusion?

Gassho
Sat

Zen folks generally leave such questions be. Folks bandy about such words as "consciousness" so easily in Eastern religions when, like "God" or "Buddha" and the like, it is really best to leave such be without trying to stuff it into a little idea box between our ears. Do you know what "God" is? Even "Buddha." Do you what what is some "Cosmic Consciousness"? Do you even know what the universe, or all reality is, and can hold it in the stupid space inside your skull? Foolish humans have no more chance of defining these things than an ant could define the aerodynamics and engineering of a 787 whose wing it was crawling across.

So, best not to define ... and best to drop all names, images and categories, as well as concepts of these things as some outside "object" apart from ourselves (whereby "Consciousness" or "God" etc. is a thing like a table in our room that we can just move about and hold separate from us) ...

... and then maybe by doing so, just maybe, one actually gets as close as one can (so close as there never was any separation to start with!) to what "God" or "Consciousness" or "Buddha" or "Universe" or "Reality" might be feebly trying to capture. It is like trying to define something that is best just tasted and bowed to. Rather than trying to name the "ocean," and to hold the entire "ocean" as an idea in your head ... best to jump in, get all wet and merge with the waters, for we are waters of these waters.

No, I personally don't believe that "matter" is an illusion or, better said, "matter" is a word used by scientists to refer to some phenomenon that seems real enough, atoms and molecules, tables and Inshins. I assume that I am not just dreaming you. HOWEVER, much about the world that we are experiencing is an interpretation that is happening between the ears, and so has much about it that is substantially like a dream much MUCH more than we realize, and is not really "there" without our making a self-created interpretation of phenomena in our heads. For example, you see a "table" but there are no "tables" apart from the name and function that human beings have assigned to some atoms of a certain shape that serve as "a raised flat surface to put things on." However, since human beings all share this convention (and countless others) and the resulting common language, we all are mutually convinced that there are tables, as well as ham sandwiches, Picasso paintings and cell phones because certain groups of atoms do certain things, and hold certain meaning for us, for which we assign them a name and summarizing image. A baby is not born knowing why some lump is a "ham sandwich," my cat does not see a "Picasso painting of a guitar," and Dogen (if he travelled through time until today) would probably see some glowy rectangular shape but not a "cell phone" until it was explained to him. Like that. Inshin is just a bunch of atoms until, low and behold, some of those atoms made a brain that stuck a name and identity on itself! [gassholook]

Sorry to run long.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tairin]

gassho2

Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Juki]

I always imagined it was zazen of the bodylessness and zazen of the mindlessness (and not in the sense of carelessness, more in the sense of forgetfulness). Zazen of no body and no mind. That always seemed to be dropping away., but, then again, I'm a notoriously poor student.

Gassho,
Juki

sat today and lah

[Koki]

And why would it matter?
Mud in the pond, let it go, let it settle.

[Jundo]

Zen folks generally leave such questions be. Folks bandy about such words as "consciousness" so easily in Eastern religions when, like "God" or "Buddha" and the like, it is really best to leave such be without trying to stuff it into a little idea box between our ears. ...

As I am prone to do, I made a whole essay about this ... about why words are trouble makers ... :p

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?18927-A-Picture-of-the-Ocean

Gassho, J

STLah

[Rob Parisien]

gassho2

rob
st