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Onkai
03-18-2021, 02:47 PM
The April issue of Harper's magazine has an article about the dangers of meditation. I can't find the article online, but it cited studies that showed that even just 40 minutes a day can trigger psychological disturbances, including sleep disturbances, depression and psychotic symptoms, even for people who had no previous symptoms. The studies included Zen meditation, but it wasn't clear if only rinzai was studied, or also Soto. It did include practices similar to ours, though.

My mental health is fragile, but zazen doesn't cause me any added psychological disturbances. It gives me better insight. I think it's important to be aware of these studies, though. I wondered if anyone else has come across this article.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/lah

Sorry for going over three lines

Onkai
03-18-2021, 02:53 PM
I found the article online: https://harpers.org/archive/2021/04/lost-in-thought-psychological-risks-of-meditation/

Sorry I didn't have it before.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/lah

Jishin
03-18-2021, 03:08 PM
Interesting article. My clinical opinion as a psychiatrist is that meditation does carry certain risks just like anything else.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

Ugrok
03-18-2021, 03:48 PM
Don't want to read it cause it will make me scared of zazen, which is a great relief for me nowadays, but : does it deal specifically about shikantaza or is it about other forms of meditation ? Because well, if sitting doing nothing is dangerous, then yeah, as Jishin says, it's the same as saying : "life can be dangerous"... No shit sherlock !

Gassho,
Uggy,
Sat today

Jishin
03-18-2021, 04:06 PM
Water is lethal in sufficient quantities.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

Horin
03-18-2021, 06:11 PM
Well, I think we face things during zazen that we often suppress in daily life. These unconscious things arise and may trigger ppl. But also, we learn this way to process these things in my opinion.

Gassho

Horin
Stlah

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aprapti
03-18-2021, 08:19 PM
thank you Onkai!
at last i found a reason to quit sitting.. [wave]

gassho2

aprapti

sat (as you know :) )

Kaisho
03-18-2021, 08:42 PM
The article seems a little misleading because she had preexisting conditions.

Also, the instructor may have not made the right call on her behalf or urged her to contact her professionals.

Gassho
Kaisho (Chelsea)
Sat

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Inshin
03-18-2021, 09:06 PM
Thank you Onkai for sharing. I think that may be one of the reasons why Jundo constantly warns against chasing various meditative states and experiences. From my personal experience I used to do a lot of focused, concentrated mindfulness of breathing by myself, helping myself with books only. It triggered a deep trauma I wasn't even aware I had. I got scared and went for therapy that helped with trauma. I find Shikantaza safe, mainly thanks to Jundo's teachings.
There has been recently an increased interest in Dogchen practice, and Thogal in particular. A secret meditation on light and sight that when not practiced correctly can cause psychiatric disorders. Apparently there are quite a few charlatans on Internet who teach it.

Sorry for going over 3 sentences.
Gassho
Sat

Seibu
03-18-2021, 09:17 PM
Well, I think we face things during zazen that we often suppress in daily life. These unconscious things arise and may trigger ppl. But also, we learn this way to process these things in my opinion.

Gassho

Horin
Stlah

Enviado desde mi BLA-L29 mediante Tapatalk

gassho2

Gassho,
Seibu
Sattoday/lah

Bearshirt Buddhist
03-18-2021, 09:58 PM
Bear in mind, after so much media hype for mindfulness a backlash is almost inevitable. I suspect this is more about selling magazines than anything. Bottom line for me is my zen practice has made my life much much better. May not be the right thing for everyone but certainly no cause to chuck meditation if you find it helpful. Be guided by your own experience, I would say.

Gassho
Theo
Sat today

Jundo
03-18-2021, 11:06 PM
Shikantaza is generally such a soft, gentle way of sitting and accepting life, that it should be about as dangerous as a warm bath.

Most of the reports of problems are with very intense meditation styles, such as the intense, silent vipassana style of Mahashi Sayadaw, maybe even the long silent retreats of Goenka (as in the article), intense Koan introspection in the Rinzai or mixed Soto-Rinzai forms where they really push, extreme mental visualization techniques as the Tibetans sometimes pursue, etc.

Also, it is possible that, if someone has a pre-existing psychological condition, the silence of sitting can be difficult. Memories of a past trauma can resurface, or thoughts and feelings of depression can come to the fore because we are no longer distracting ourselves with other diversions. Likewise for someone prone to "panic" just by the quiet. I have heard of a case where a person sitting Shikantaza began to "hear voices" in their head, but it was due to their existing schizophrenia. They should only have been engaged in the practice under medical supervision. Persons with pre-existing psychological conditions should only engage in Zazen or other meditation with permission and supervision by a doctor or mental health professional.

In the rare case where some difficulty arises in Zazen, such as a panic attack, or a memory or emotion that is too much to handle ... STOP! Take a break, try again later. If the problem persists, discuss with your doctor. Talk to me or your other teacher too. It is very rare, but there are people in such a fragile or extreme psychological state that Zazen would not be for them.

Otherwise, Shikantaza should be like a warm bubble bath which, itself, can be dangerous once in awhile if we are not careful. (Of course, Shikantaza is a bath in which water and tub, bather and bubbles and rubber ducky, are one. [monk] )

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

JimInBC
03-19-2021, 12:06 AM
The article raises some good points, though it seems to working more to push emotional buttons than present a rational case.

I know the trauma community is very cautious of meditation. And meditation has been shown to trigger depression and anxiety in some cases. But in what percent of practioners? Is it only in practioners with pre-existing conditions? Is it only specific meditation practices? (The couple cases I ran into personally were young guys who did intensive 10-day retreats without having a long-term daily practice under their belt.) Most of the research on meditation is pro-meditation researchers trying to prove the value of meditation.

What one would hope to see is research, and based on those findings the norm becoming that meditation books and websites and centres and retreats provide a warning about contraindications for meditating.

It's certainly fine to have religious beliefs (what Jundo calls superstitions, but I find that word too dismissive) - rebirth, god, soul, Buddha Nature, leprechauns - but when it comes to assessing the risks and benefits of a practice, ultimately the only thing that will matter is what the research shows. Maybe it will support our beliefs about meditation. Maybe it will disprove them.

But following the science, even if it contradicts traditions or our own anecdotal experience, seems to me part of the Modernist Buddhism Jundo advocates.

In the absence of research, I think one can only be a bit cautious about recommending meditation if unsure of someone's mental health challenges, under the general heading of "first do no harm."

Gassho, Jim
ST/LaH

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Jundo
03-19-2021, 01:13 AM
The article raises some good points, though it seems to working more to push emotional buttons than present a rational case.

I know the trauma community is very cautious of meditation. And meditation has been shown to trigger depression and anxiety in some cases. But in what percent of practioners? Is it only in practioners with pre-existing conditions? Is it only specific meditation practices? (The couple cases I ran into personally were young guys who did intensive 10-day retreats without having a long-term daily practice under their belt.) Most of the research on meditation is pro-meditation researchers trying to prove the value of meditation.



I so much agree. Much of the research that exists tends to be biased. Also, as in the article, it mixes up all kinds of meditation, especially the more intense kinds with the very low intensity kinds like Shikantaza. As long as all this meditation research keeps on mixing and matching disparate kinds of practice, it is fairly useless.

I can only speak by anecdote, but in 20 years of teaching, I have never had anyone come to me with a serious crisis. If there are reports of negative thoughts and emotions arising in Zazen, which happens sometimes, I quickly make sure that the person is receiving counseling from a mental health professional, and make sure that the counselor thinks that continuing Zazen is a good thing. In some cases, the Zazen actually was a first step for the person to deal with an issue that they had been repressing for years, but first realized when the quiet of Zazen caused it to arise. However, I have never personally encountered a situation where Shikantaza triggered a serious condition in anyone, not any more than a warm bath, a walk in the woods or appreciating the peace of a quiet garden might do so for somebody.

In fact, the walk in the woods can cause a sprained ankle, and the garden may potentially result in a bee sting. [gassholook]

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Sorry to run long.

Onkai
03-19-2021, 02:08 AM
Thank you, Jundo and everyone who responded. The article went against my experience, but I think awareness of differing views and discussion of controversy is healthy. I hope I wasn't being unskillful in how I presented the article, as I agree that this is a gentle practice.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/lah

Jundo
03-19-2021, 02:19 AM
Thank you, Jundo and everyone who responded. The article went against my experience, but I think awareness of differing views and discussion of controversy is healthy. I hope I wasn't being unskillful in how I presented the article, as I agree that this is a gentle practice.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/lah

No, it is important to discuss! People need to be aware!

Alas, anything can cause harm including bicycles, step stools, baths, traveling with heavy luggage, cooking with an oven, so we all need to be careful and aware about anything including Zazen.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

JimInBC
03-19-2021, 02:31 AM
Thank you, Jundo and everyone who responded. The article went against my experience, but I think awareness of differing views and discussion of controversy is healthy. I hope I wasn't being unskillful in how I presented the article, as I agree that this is a gentle practice.

Gassho,

Onkai

Sat/lah
I was very glad you brought this up. I think there is far too little discussion of this in the Buddhist world. My suspicion is when the research is done they'll find it is usually a combination of a more intense meditation practice combined with a pre-existing condition.

And in my experience there are too few teachers like Jundo who will say things like

They should only have been engaged in the practice under medical supervision. Persons with pre-existing psychological conditions should only engage in Zazen or other meditation with permission and supervision by a doctor or mental health professional.

Gassho, Jim
ST/LaH


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Seiko
03-19-2021, 08:17 AM
I have seen abstracts from a study done as part of a doctorate, which paint a similar picture. Apologies but my needle is difficult to locate again in the haystack of the internet .

I committed to memory what I felt were the significant findings:
Mindfulness meditation of up to 30 minutes per day had positive results. More than 30 minutes per day, saw negative effects increase proportionately.

It was specifcally about mindfulness - not shikantaza.

In Gassho
Seiko
stlah

Risho
03-19-2021, 12:02 PM
I think we all come to practice for a reason - sometimes a deep need that we aren't even sure of, but we are here to get something. We want peace of mind or whatever it is. We want to escape. But this practice very quickly shows you your mind; so if you are stressed at the moment, you will see that with vivid clarity especially once your mind calms down. I think we are so used to chasing distractions to avoid what really troubles us (spoiler alert: death :) ).

I think the brilliance of zen practice is that it is low intensity as Jundo said so we don't get exposed to that prematurely. Also, it is not just a separate practice to get something. It's about giving something, and it comes with an entire framework of gratitude: zazen, precepts, the other practices (chanting, study, our lives through the lens of zazen) that are all big thank yous to everything. "Dropping likes and dislikes", "Faith in Mind". Accepting but, more than that, grateful for all of it... all of it

I think holding an attitude of gratitude in our hearts is zazen and that is a key ingredient to counter the existential horrors that we aren't necessarily used to thinking about. At the same time, mental illness is no small thing and anyone should seek professional help for that; more importantly, it is not a lack of character or sign of weakness. Sometimes we get diabetes, sometimes we get mental illness; we don't get to choose our "hobbies", but we should never feel guilty or "less than" because of any of this.

Anyhoo, that's it - happy friday

gassho

Risho
-stlah

PS apologies for wordiness and tangents lol - post morning zazen and your posts have inspired me

Onkai
03-20-2021, 03:48 PM
I think holding an attitude of gratitude in our hearts is zazen and that is a key ingredient to counter the existential horrors that we aren't necessarily used to thinking about. At the same time, mental illness is no small thing and anyone should seek professional help for that; more importantly, it is not a lack of character or sign of weakness. Sometimes we get diabetes, sometimes we get mental illness; we don't get to choose our "hobbies", but we should never feel guilty or "less than" because of any of this.


Thank you, Risho. I appreciate how welcoming and inclusive this community is. Jundo has also been sensitive to the need for care for mental health issues while accepting people as they are.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat

Guish
03-21-2021, 07:07 AM
Thank you for this article. Over the last 5 years, I have ran workshops on breathing techniques and meditation to People with suicidal tendencies, anxiety patients, Corporate and PTSD patients. However, they were accompagnied by mental health specialists and meditation and breathing did help. There are extreme meditation techniques which can destabilize anyone. However, I believe the real problem is people viewing meditation as a solution while I view it as a mirror which shows things as they are. Anything in moderation, right?

Gassho,
Sat today,
Geerish.

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Meredith
03-21-2021, 10:07 PM
I seem to remember an article in Yoga Journal years ago that also warned of the dangers of meditation. If I remember correctly, those with the worst outcomes were those who were new to meditation and were trauma survivors.

I can remember when I was new to zazen, it sometimes felt like a physical act to detangle myself from my thoughts. With experience, of course, it's much easier for me to just watch thoughts come and go! I can easily imagine someone who had experienced trauma, new to meditation, deeply ensnared in whatever storyline going on in their head, feeling trapped on the cushion, and for whatever reason not realizing it's okay to stop. Perhaps it's the type of meditation, perhaps they're attempting meditation on their own with no supervision, perhaps poor instruction? Lots of possibilities.

Gassho,
Meredith
ST

Shade
03-22-2021, 06:51 PM
I'm glad you brought this up, Onkai. It is important that a sangha discuss such matters with patience, understanding and compassion.

I would like to add that we should be cautious when generalizing all negative religious/spiritual/meditative experiences as being tied to preexisting conditions or previous trauma. I say this for two reasons, one being that we don't want to stigmatize someone's experience and cause an individual to hesitate to share their experience.

The second reason is that meditative practices can elicit a wide range of experiences. I say this less as someone who has had a variety of experiences on the cushion, but more from the perspective of someone who has a background in religious studies. For some, the experience of psychological dissolution (by this I mean a drop of water merging with ocean in which the "I" is extinguished) can be terrifying. I realize that for most practitioners these experiences can be small, incremental and enlightening (:p), but they can cause distress in others.

I think that Jundo is right with his comparison to Zazen and a warm bath. Some of the worst instances of negative reactions/psychosis related to meditation practice often involve novice practitioners who engage in prolonged and intensive periods of practice. Which, in my belief, could cause any healthy, rational being to have a negative experience.

Thank you all for your posts.

Gassho,

Shade

ST

Shoki
03-23-2021, 03:09 PM
In the first story in the article where the woman was told once she started, she should not leave was a red flag for me. If Jundo started this year's Rohatsu with the warning that you better not to leave once started, I would decline and most likely leave Treeleaf. So I'm not sure how that is relatable to Treeleaf.

As others have said, this article relies on a lot of emotional hair raising stories so to make a point. If I have two mixed drinks, I will most likely get sick and regret it. So should this serve as a warning for everyone else, to be careful of having two drinks? Maybe.

Cannabis is now legally prescribed for anxiety in many US states but I know people who won't use it because it causes anxiety. I can't relate to anything in this article as the worst thing I ever experienced during zazen is maybe a little restlessness.

Gassho
stlah
Shoki

Jishin
03-23-2021, 04:19 PM
In the first story in the article where the woman was told once she started, she should not leave was a red flag for me. If Jundo started this year's Rohatsu with the warning that you better not to leave once started, I would decline and most likely leave Treeleaf. So I'm not sure how that is relatable to Treeleaf.

As others have said, this article relies on a lot of emotional hair raising stories so to make a point. If I have two mixed drinks, I will most likely get sick and regret it. So should this serve as a warning for everyone else, to be careful of having two drinks? Maybe.

Cannabis is now legally prescribed for anxiety in many US states but I know people who won't use it because it causes anxiety. I can't relate to anything in this article as the worst thing I ever experienced during zazen is maybe a little restlessness.

Gassho
stlah
Shoki

Cannabis is a federal offense. It is illegal in the USA with very few exceptions. It is federally illegal for recreational purposes in all 50 states.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

Jundo
03-24-2021, 12:28 AM
I would like to add that we should be cautious when generalizing all negative religious/spiritual/meditative experiences as being tied to preexisting conditions or previous trauma. I say this for two reasons, one being that we don't want to stigmatize someone's experience and cause an individual to hesitate to share their experience.

The second reason is that meditative practices can elicit a wide range of experiences. I say this less as someone who has had a variety of experiences on the cushion, but more from the perspective of someone who has a background in religious studies. For some, the experience of psychological dissolution (by this I mean a drop of water merging with ocean in which the "I" is extinguished) can be terrifying. I realize that for most practitioners these experiences can be small, incremental and enlightening (:p), but they can cause distress in others.

Thank you, and you raise good points. As to the first point, you are correct, and there is no stigma meant or implied in any way for someone who has a medical/psychological condition or who has been a victim of trauma. I just don't know how to describe such situations without using those terms however, but no stigma was implied.

As to the second, what you say is true. However, if the person is cautioned to take a break or stop if they feel more disquiet or difficulty than they feel that they can handle, and to discuss it with their Zen teacher, then it should not be a serious event. I have had a relatively small number of people come to me sometimes who find the quiet or loss of "self" disturbing, but after we discuss it, they either go back later because it was just a passing moment, or they decide that Zazen is not for them. While there may be someone who is truly terrorized, I would imagine that it is rare. In fact, I would imagine that someone would be much more terrorized in their feelings by, for example, getting on a roller coaster at an amusement park heading for that first big drop, hearing a strange "bump in the night" in their house at midnight, or imagining "worst case scenarios" when going to a doctor's office for a test. Many things in life can cause fear. In fact, Zazen is a practice which helps us reduce fear in meeting those other situations in life (at least for me, as I could never set foot on a roller coaster until I began to practice Zazen, and likewise for my state of mind when I undergo medical tests! :) However, for a "Bump in the night," I still get under the bed, and send my wife out with a baseball bat. :eek:)

Sorry to run long in my words.

Gassho, J

STLah

Shoki
03-24-2021, 01:11 AM
Cannabis is a federal offense. It is illegal in the USA with very few exceptions. It is federally illegal for recreational purposes in all 50 states.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

Jishin,
Yes, that's correct. It is illegal on the federal level. My state voted in favor of legalization in November and I can easily obtain it medically by telling my doctor I have anxiety (I have not, will not). The governor and the attorney general have advised all police departments to cease arrests for under 6 ounces as no further cases will be prosecuted. So I doubt the Feds are going to start making arrests.

But I'm not sure what this has to do with anything as this is all besides the point. I was just using anecdotal examples of how meditation, alcohol and cannabis get different reactions from different people.

Please, let's not get off track by starting a thing about the merits/benefits of weed. I'm not qualified and really not interested in the subject.

Sorry for being so verbose.

Gassho
STlah
Shoki

Shade
03-24-2021, 01:13 AM
Thank you, and you raise good points. As to the first point, you are correct, and there is no stigma meant or implied in any way for someone who has a medical/psychological condition or who has been a victim of trauma. I just don't know how to describe such situations without using those terms however, but no stigma was implied.

As to the second, what you say is true. However, if the person is cautioned to take a break or stop if they feel more disquiet or difficulty than they feel that they can handle, and to discuss it with their Zen teacher, then it should not be a serious event. I have had a relatively small number of people come to me sometimes who find the quiet or loss of "self" disturbing, but after we discuss it, they either go back later because it was just a passing moment, or they decide that Zazen is not for them. While there may be someone who is truly terrorized, I would imagine that it is rare. In fact, I would imagine that someone would be much more terrorized in their feelings by, for example, getting on a roller coaster at an amusement park heading for that first big drop, hearing a strange "bump in the night" in their house at midnight, or imagining "worst case scenarios" when going to a doctor's office for a test. Many things in life can cause fear. In fact, Zazen is a practice which helps us reduce fear in meeting those other situations in life (at least for me, as I could never set foot on a roller coaster until I began to practice Zazen, and likewise for my state of mind when I undergo medical tests! :) However, for a "Bump in the night," I still get under the bed, and send my wife out with a baseball bat. :eek:)

Sorry to run long in my words.

Gassho, J

STLah

You make some good points, Jundo. You are right in your assertion that we are more likely to find stress and anxiety provoking episodes off the cushion. I have experienced firsthand how this practice can help us to confront and accept much of what we experience in life.

I also like your emphasis on the importance of speaking with a Zen teacher if such experiences occur. Having a supportive Sangha is important, and for this reason I am thankful to have found Treeleaf! gassho1

Regarding the everyday terrors, I also experience awful situations in life. Specifically, spiders. I don't like spiders, and I don't know if there is enough timeless Zazen to change my opinion on that (although I hope there is!). As a result, I rely on my wife to rid the house of all unwanted arachnids. :nightmare:

Gassho,

Shade

ST

Jundo
03-24-2021, 01:59 AM
Regarding the everyday terrors, I also experience awful situations in life. Specifically, spiders. I don't like spiders, and I don't know if there is enough timeless Zazen to change my opinion on that (although I hope there is!). As a result, I rely on my wife to rid the house of all unwanted arachnids. :nightmare:


More than once, I have had a spider crawl across me during Zazen. I either keep sitting, and let it go on its way, or offer it a little assistance to go on its way ... with a Gassho. [gassholook]

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=7044&d=1616551214

7044

Gassho, J

STLah

Jakuden
03-24-2021, 02:25 AM
Several weeks ago during a Zazenkai I was beset by mosquitoes... they must have come in on the firewood! I felt like the Dalai Lama in the mosquito video. Like him, I got bit once and then was swatting afterwards, Zazen or no, I am allergic and swell up like a balloon from them...

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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Jundo
03-24-2021, 02:31 AM
Several weeks ago during a Zazenkai I was beset by mosquitoes... they must have come in on the firewood! I felt like the Dalai Lama in the mosquito video. Like him, I got bit once and then was swatting afterwards, Zazen or no, I am allergic and swell up like a balloon from them...

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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Yes, for medical reasons, if one has to swat ... just swat.

https://youtu.be/W083nSzx1Rc

Gassho, J

STLah

Jishin
03-24-2021, 12:13 PM
Jishin,
Yes, that's correct. It is illegal on the federal level. My state voted in favor of legalization in November and I can easily obtain it medically by telling my doctor I have anxiety (I have not, will not). The governor and the attorney general have advised all police departments to cease arrests for under 6 ounces as no further cases will be prosecuted. So I doubt the Feds are going to start making arrests.

But I'm not sure what this has to do with anything as this is all besides the point. I was just using anecdotal examples of how meditation, alcohol and cannabis get different reactions from different people.

Please, let's not get off track by starting a thing about the merits/benefits of weed. I'm not qualified and really not interested in the subject.

Sorry for being so verbose.

Gassho
STlah
Shoki

I am just pointing out that smoking marijuana is illegal at the federal level recreationally 100 percent of the time and most of the time for medicinal purposes. Doctors don't write prescriptions for marijuana as the DEA classifies cannabis as a schedule one controlled substance that has very high potential for abuse. In some states doctors write recommendation letters staying that it may benefit a patient and with this recommendation a patient can purchase it without breaking local laws (federal laws are still broken).


Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

Shinshou
03-24-2021, 03:24 PM
The only anxiety or "psychological disturbances" I've experienced during zazen were during my first 6-9 months when my mind was trying to get me interested in my thoughts while sitting. It would suggest the most awful ideas, violent images, and self-deprecating beliefs. It was disturbing, but as I let them go, they would abate. However, my mind became more insidious and would move on to how wonderful I was doing and what a great person I was. It was just trying to get me involved. The frequency of these has lessened, and these days my thoughts are mostly banal - lunch, clothes, a spot on the wall. Occasionally, a violent image will pop up. I think my mind is just prodding me to see if it can regain its foothold. I can certainly see how some people may not react to that type of thing in a psychologically healthy way.

Shinshou (Daniel)
Sat Today

omom
03-25-2021, 07:03 AM
Interesting article.
Thank you all for your posts.gassho1

Gassho
Sat

gaurdianaq
03-25-2021, 01:35 PM
Interesting read, I read something similar to this before about someone who had an experience like this at a Vipassana retreat, I'm definitely hesitant of anything that takes things to an extreme/prevents you from leaving on the premise that you need to tough it out to get the full benefit. Sometimes that's the case, other times you end up in a hospital.

There are also some interesting points about how different people will react to something, going back to the subject of Marijuana (it's 100% legal in Canada now) my experience with it was very different than my sisters or my step mothers. For my sister it provides a fair bit of anxiety relief, my step mother it caused her to panic, and for me it was just... weird, not worth it. I'd imagine for some people intense meditation can be super beneficial, for someone else it might trigger a negative reaction.

I also feel like the term meditation gets thrown around really casually, I don't think sitting Shikantaza is the same as trying to enter some deep jhanic state or something.

Apologies for going over!
gassho1
Evan,
Sat today

Tomás Sard
03-25-2021, 02:12 PM
It only makes sense that it does, at least in some forms of practice. We know that trauma is "stored" in the body (i.e. as Bessel van der kolk's book points out, "The body keeps the score"). The thing is that a lot of forms in regards to meditation present a very "goal-oriented" practice. I feel like shikantaza should be quite safe for most people.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

Koki
03-25-2021, 08:17 PM
Understanding...
Too many words can be dangerous too.

Gassho
Koki
Satoday

Tai Shi
03-26-2021, 12:36 PM
I don't believe this writing for it is only hearsay. This article relies on too few studies. The work of The Stress Reduction Clinic, hard science by the associates of Jon Kabot-Zinn shows a different conclusion with statistics and thousaqnds of hours of personal testamony, research, and case studies which fly in the face of this dangerous material and shows otherwise with emperical evedence. There is no real research here. These people may have ulteriorer motives among which are to sell magazines. I suspect they have not looked at the Spirit Rock Center, the San Francisco Zen Center or the thousands of meditation halls throughout the USA and Europe. There is no hard science but sensationalism to gain money and further a cause of meadicore reporting without firm evedence, for this is only for the sake of their own reputations.I suspect if you look deeply here you will find no fact only conjecture bassed only one unrelated case of psychyosis without attention to any meditation nor any zazen.
Gassho
sat/ lah
Tai Shi

bad_buddha_007
03-28-2021, 09:27 PM
Water is lethal in sufficient quantities.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

Dihydrogen monoxide can be really dangerous - “Its basis is the highly reactive hydroxyl radical, a species shown to mutate DNA, denature proteins, disrupt cell membranes, and chemically alter critical neurotransmitters.”
- http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html

Gassho,
Gareth

Sat today

Jundo
03-28-2021, 11:07 PM
Dihydrogen monoxide can be really dangerous - “Its basis is the highly reactive hydroxyl radical, a species shown to mutate DNA, denature proteins, disrupt cell membranes, and chemically alter critical neurotransmitters.”
- http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html

Gassho,
Gareth

Sat today

It is also known that the Buddha ingested dihydrogen monoxide every day, and it definitely was a contributing factor to his enlightenment. :buddha:

Gassho, J

STLah

PS - It is important to add, for those who have watery eyes, that this was a joke about .... water, which does all those things naturally in the body and they are good things. Yes, it is all wet.