PDA

View Full Version : Dropping off body and mind



Ryumon
01-15-2021, 06:34 PM
"We are living in the mountains together with all other beings, and the mountains are our body, but this body is not the self. The body is there but it is not our self. This is dropping off body and mind. Dropping off body and mind does not mean this person's body and mind disappear; they're still there, functioning as part of interdependent origination, living together with all beings. Only the misidentification of body and mind as self has dropped away. "

― Shohaku Okumura, The Mountains and Waters Sutra



Gassho,

Kirk

Sat

Risho
01-15-2021, 06:51 PM
That book is really, really good

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

Kyōsen
01-15-2021, 08:20 PM
I really appreciate this explanation. It's something I wondered about but never thought to ask, so thank you for spontaneously sharing this gassho1

Gassho
Kyōsen
Sat|LAH

Inshin
01-16-2021, 11:09 AM
Just starting on my Dogen exploration but I have a feeling that The Mountains and Waters Sutra will remain my favourite of Master's writings. I've just finished Shohaku Okumura commentary and really, really like his style.

Gassho
Sat

Tomás Sard
01-16-2021, 11:19 AM
So clear, yet so subtle to experiencegassho2

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

Ryumon
01-16-2021, 11:20 AM
Just starting on my Dogen exploration but I have a feeling that The Mountains and Waters Sutra will remain my favourite of Master's writings. I've just finished Shohaku Okumura commentary and really, really like his style.

Gassho
Sat

Agreed, but it's clear how little you can get from the original text after reading that commentary. There are so many allusions that need to be explained. I find that this one is a lot more opaque than, say, the Genjokoan.

Gasso,

Kirk

sat

Getchi
01-25-2021, 03:04 PM
Agreed, but it's clear how little you can get from the original text after reading that commentary. There are so many allusions that need to be explained. I find that this one is a lot more opaque than, say, the Genjokoan.

Gasso,

Kirk

sat

You are so correct, in my humble opinion.

LaH
SatToday.

-Geoff.

Hoko
02-02-2021, 05:51 AM
I just started Okamura's book.
I am reading it side by side with Brad Warner's translation from Don't be a Jerk.
His version is called "The Beer and Doritos Sutra". [emoji23]
It's quite an interesting contrast.

Gassho,
Hōkō

SatToday and LAH

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

Risho
02-02-2021, 11:17 AM
I just started Okamura's book.
I am reading it side by side with Brad Warner's translation from Don't be a Jerk.
His version is called "The Beer and Doritos Sutra". [emoji23]
It's quite an interesting contrast.

Gassho,
Hōkō

SatToday and LAH

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

hahahahaha I liked that - to be fair he apologized for calling it that lol

If mountains walk, and Doritos walk, perhaps Cool Ranch Doritos do a bit of a jog :D

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

Risho
02-02-2021, 11:37 AM
Agreed, but it's clear how little you can get from the original text after reading that commentary. There are so many allusions that need to be explained. I find that this one is a lot more opaque than, say, the Genjokoan.

Gasso,

Kirk

sat

I agree with you - I read Okumura's commentary in iBooks, and I need to get the hardcopy because I'm old school with books and when it comes to Dogen I should have known better and just gotten the physical book so I could reference and note, etc. I need to read a book like this over and over; there's a lot covered, and I don't understand all of it; it's weird with some zen books like this; I have to read them, despite not really getting it all, and then come back a while later, after having practiced and studied other stuff and just let my mind process the thing, and I get a little more. With Dogen, some of it will probably never all make sense, and the original is nuts; without this book (like many of the contemporary Dogen Books) I'd have no idea what Dogen's getting at without them. hahahahah

Then, and I know Jundo makes this comment in his book (The Zen Master's Dance - available at fine retailers everywhere ) that Dogen quite possibly didn't always know what he was riffing on even though it was true! And that sounds crazy but I think we all do that, especially when we explain something we've done for a long, long time (not just with sitting but also in things like describing coding or podcasting or whatever it is we do; I think when humans get into something that we elevate it to something much, much deeper and that original thing like coding becomes almost secondary to the overall process that we take part in when we do that thing - I mean that may be "walking"). I really like Dogen even though I don't always know what he's riffing on. And it frustrates me - I've put down Shobogenzo so many times because I hate not getting something - but then I just have to stop for a while and then pick it back up when I'm ready; it's almost like reading Shobogenzo is practice itself - lol

I think what really made me love Dogen was the Tenzo Kyokun because it is so applicable to my life in the corporate world. I mean ever since I listened to Jundo's videos and read the ("How to Cook Your Life") it was immediately applicable and I try to take that attitude into my daily life. That really hits; I love it. It taught me to make meaning out of things; that even in a job in the corporate world we can play the role of a tenzo and make it a practice place. That means a lot to me because I want my life to mean something; when I was a child, I used to think I had to do my "passion" but, with zen, I've learned that is incorrect: that is like in Genjokoan when Dogen talks about delusion taking your self to meet things, but enlightenment allowing things to come to you (wildly paraphrasing and too lazy to look up the line lol).

In reality - I don't know that you find your passion - with me, it was my passion finding me. It wasn't until I developed proficiency in something - that I allowed that in (to cook me in a way) that it transformed me, and I realized I really enjoyed doing this. And that thing I enjoy doing really isn't that important, but it allows me to express myself. And it isn't one thing either - I just think that's how passions come; they develop in me over time, after I make an effort practicing them. That's a lot like zazen and this way too - at first you just stumble around but, as Suzuki Roshi says in Zen Mind Beginner's Mind, zen is like walking in a fog; at first it's just foggy but after a while you are wet. At that point, there's no going back - you're in the zen now! :D And I think it's like that in any endeavor we partake in - at least it is for me.

When you approach your life and work like a tenzo, you are letting things meet you, and you aren't afraid. You walk like a Bodhisattva (without fear as it says in the Heart Sutra) because no matter where you are you are home - you make it home by allowing everything you meet to --- actually to realize that everything you meet is part of you, that you need to take care of it, that that paperwork or whatever it is you see as passionless or meaningless is you and your life, and you take care of it. That whole attitude makes life worth living, and it also makes a world of difference for everyone around you because when you see someone who cares about what they do fully, that's really something.

This one I'm not as in love with yet - but I feel like a child who has tasted a fine wine - and I won't really get it until I've cooked a bit longer if that makes any sense.

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

PS apologies for going over - it's been a long day for this tenzo and I'm rambling. hahahahah

Jundo
02-02-2021, 11:43 AM
At Kirk's suggestion, I was just working on adding a modern translation of Tenzo Kyokun to my new new book, The Zen Master Dances On ...

Gassho, J

STLah

Risho
02-02-2021, 03:51 PM
At Kirk's suggestion, I was just working on adding a modern translation of Tenzo Kyokun to my new new book, The Zen Master Dances On ...

Gassho, J

STLah


Take my money now [claps] gassho2

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

Jundo
02-02-2021, 03:56 PM
Take my money now [claps] gassho2

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

Since Uchiyama Roshi did such an amazing job explaining the original, I may try to update it a bit, to inspire working people not cooking in a monastery. The cook will probably be a hotel chef (Kirk suggested a cruise ship or submarine, but I like hotel), cooking for the guests, checking the inventory ... but all the same passages and lessons otherwise.

We'll see what happens.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Heisoku
02-06-2021, 10:31 AM
I really enjoyed this quote and the book.
What is amazing is the similar articulation in Karen Barad’s Meeting the Universe Halfway.

Not only in the thinking of entanglement and connection but in the language - and through Karin Murris - bodymind.
There is something of a realisation of all these through posthumanist thought that is permeating education at the moment.
The thing is it seems like an arduous and tortuous path when one can just sit! Each unto their own.
It’s a beautiful Saturday morning and the air is full of birdsong.
Gassho
Heisoku


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hoko
02-17-2021, 10:44 PM
Because of this thread I purchased Shohaku Okumura's book and I am so glad that I did!
I am about halfway through but so far it's a fantastic read.

There is a magnificent section where he draws a parallel between:
1) Dependent co-arising as discussed in the Suttanipatta
2) Linji's (Rinzai) explanation of the Four Procedures
3) Nagarjuna's logical discussion of subject/object negating one another and
4) Dogen's poetry in Sansuikyo

Absolutely brilliant.

Very grateful for this thread.

Gassho,
Hoko

SatToday and LAH