Split Thread: "Freedom of Art Expression" v. "No Politics" Rule at Treeleaf

[Jishin]

WARNING TO THE SENSITIVE: THREAD CONTAINS SOME GRAPHIC VIOLENT IMAGES!

JUNDO NOTE: Hmmm. Our "no politics" request vs. Freedom in Art Expression. Hmmm.

Please see discussion below regarding why I am asking that we not post pictures of particular candidates or national flags here, in this Sangha, especially today, whether with dogs and families or not. I also try to explain more here: (A Time for Coming Together, Looking Past "Ours" and "Yours" (https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?18284-A-Time-for-Coming-Together-Looking-Past-Ours-and-Yours))

I edited the photo (save for the dog), but it can be restored here. But let's not divide into cats and dogs.

UPDATE: After sitting with this for a day, I have decided to remove all pictures of particular political candidates, national flags and like symbols.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6897&d=1604792872
Beautiful dog named Champ. 6897

NOTE: PHOTO EDITED BY JUNDO TO REMOVE POLITICAL CANDIDATE AND HIS WIFE.

[Risho]

that is a beautiful dog!

gassho

risho
-stlah

[Tai Shi]

Nice people broad smiles, champion dog!
Gassho
sat: lah
Tai Shi


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Please note my change to a post above, focusing on the dog and not the politician. Happy to discuss.


JUNDO NOTE: Hmmm. Our "no politics" request vs. Freedom in Art Expression. Hmmm.

Well, Treeleaf is not a democracy, so ... dogs not politicians please.

If ya don't like it, get a lawyer and take it to the Supreme Court! gassho1

Beautiful dog named Champ. https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6893&d=1604792872

6893

Gassho, Jundo, Chief Art Critic

STLah

[Onka]

Champ is a beauty Jishin.
Growing up my family had 3 German Shepherds. Magnificent dogs. Old age took two of them, hip dysplasia eventually taking its toll on the third.
Gassho
Onka
Sat today

[Meitou]

Please note my change to a post above, focusing on the dog and not the politician. Happy to discuss.



Gassho, Jundo, Chief Art Critic

STLah

On a day when the entire world is talking about nothing else, this gets censored! There was no way anyone could reach out for support here during this really difficult time, and now there can't even be an acknowledgement of a world event that effects us all. What happened to all life being our temple?
I can't work with the art forum under these conditions, take me off admin please.
Meitou
Sattoday

[Onka]

On a day when the entire world is talking about nothing else, this gets censored! There was no way anyone could reach out for support here during this really difficult time, and now there can't even be an acknowledgement of a world event that effects us all. What happened to all life being our temple?
I can't work with the art forum under these conditions, take me off admin please.
Meitou
Sattoday

Gassho
Onka
ST

[Jishin]

Please note my change to a post above, focusing on the dog and not the politician. Happy to discuss.



Gassho, Jundo, Chief Art Critic

STLahSure. Let's discuss. I see a family portrait in the original with a beautiful German Shepherd dog as it's center piece. The photo also contains its owners who are happy to be posing with the dog. The photo is incomplete without the couple and no longer art (and a family portrait) without it. What do you see in the original that is objectionable?

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Jundo]

On a day when the entire world is talking about nothing else, this gets censored! There was no way anyone could reach out for support here during this really difficult time, and now there can't even be an acknowledgement of a world event that effects us all. What happened to all life being our temple?
I can't work with the art forum under these conditions, take me off admin please.
Meitou
Sattoday

Let me say that we can have a celebration of peace, transition and healing, but not about one candidate winning.

Would that be okay?

Folks (me too) are free to celebrate or be sad in their hearts because their candidate won or lost.

There are 1000 other places in life where one can go to celebrate or mourn one's political desires, but this one place is beyond that. A college friend of mine is quite political on facebook, was asking people to post songs summing up their feelings, and I posted a video of a sarcastic, popular song to sum up my feelings (let's just say it expressed my own, personal political views and the particular candidates I like and dislike). Another friend wrote this ...

This is a time for us to seek a way to heal. ... But not by those on the right, nor by those on the left... but by everybody on everybody. We are tasked with a serious charge now: to find a way to bring everybody back to the table so that we can have a meaningful conversation about what pragmatic compromise might look like. We must beat our swords into plowshares.

If you still wish to be removed, that is fine, Meitou. Or, since the picture was of the Biden family, I can post a picture of the other candidate and a cute animal to balance this one. Either is fine, let me know.

(sorry for running long)

Gassho, J

STLah

[Cooperix]

On a day when the entire world is talking about nothing else, this gets censored! There was no way anyone could reach out for support here during this really difficult time, and now there can't even be an acknowledgement of a world event that effects us all. What happened to all life being our temple?
I can't work with the art forum under these conditions, take me off admin please.
Meitou
Sattoday

Thank you Meitou. Sadly and with a heavy heart I join you in this decision.

Gassho, Anne
~st~

[Jishin]

Champ is a beauty Jishin.
Growing up my family had 3 German Shepherds. Magnificent dogs. Old age took two of them, hip dysplasia eventually taking its toll on the third.
Gassho
Onka
Sat todayWe have 3 German Shepherds and one comes to work with me everyday and sometimes serves as a therapy dog.

This is her:

JUNDO: Photo with Israeli Flag removed.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201108/33dc232a9f744d6fd1cde73c2bfc03db.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201108/103dc6794827e36f58f94bd80f82a439.jpg

[Jundo]

Thank you, Jishin,

I removed the one photo with two dogs, and an Israeli flag. Or, if you wish to restore it, I can just go ahead and post a picture of a Palestinian flag and some pets. It is your choice completely.

If our hosts wish to leave the arts center, they are welcome. The place can just stay open without hosts.

Again, we must step beyond right and left, my people and your people, my country and your country ... etc. Let's not be like cats and dogs,

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Jishin]

NOTE: Please avoid posting national flags in this way. I will remove any further examples.


Thank you, Jishin,

I removed the one photo with two dogs, and an Israeli flag. Or, if you wish to restore it, I can just go ahead and post a picture of a Palestinian flag and some pets. It is your choice completely.

If our hosts wish to leave the arts center, they are welcome. The place can just stay open without hosts.

Again, we must step beyond right and left, my people and your people, my country and your country ... etc. Let's not be like cats and dogs,

Gassho, Jundo

STLahHere are some recent family pictures. Please counter balance them with any that you feel necessary.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

NOTE: THREE PHOTOS REMOVED BY JUNDO DUE TO CENTRALLY FEATURED NATIONAL FLAGS

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201108/5d9838f28b398bfe4e54f94f5e59efb9.jpg

[Jishin]

Here is another nice family portrait. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201108/5308194fdce3c0b040edff15c8a64074.jpg

[Jundo]

Don't you have any lovely family photos without national flags, or pictures of dogs without candidates?

I won't delete them, but I will ask you to reflect on why you feel this is necessary here, in this place of all places, where we try to look past flags and peoples a little? Is it different from three photos posted to intentionally highlight a "MAGA" (Make America Great Again) hat?

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Jundo]

PS - If you wish to repost your photo of the Bidens, Jishin, and the first Israeli/American flag, please do, and maybe I was too rash to actually edit it. However, I would like to put a little note at the top of your post pointing people to this discussion.

[Jishin]

PS - If you wish to repost your photo of the Bidens, Jishin, and the first Israeli/American flag, please do, and maybe I was too rash to actually edit it. However, I would like to put a little note at the top of your post pointing people to this discussion.Thank you. Here is the picture of Champ.

I had to look up the meaning of "MAGA" hat. It means make America great again. I did not know it had a name. I am not sure where you saw a reference to that.

Regarding Champ, he is a beautiful dog and a German Shepherd. It makes me feel good that other people have dogs, specially breeds that I like. It is even better when I like the owner.

Regarding symbolism, you can not not teach and you can not not learn. Some of my pictures are teaching tools. That's all.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6893&d=1604792872

NOTE: PHOTO EDITED BY JUNDO TO REMOVE POLITICAL CANDIDATE AND HIS WIFE.

[Jundo]

Thank you. Here is the picture of Champ.

I had to look up the meaning of "MAGA" hat. It means make America great again. I did not know it had a name. I am not sure where you saw a reference to that.


Here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Make_America_Great_Again

[Jishin]

Here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Make_America_Great_AgainI may me misunderstanding things. I know that it is something that Trump says and some people like it and some don't. I did not know that it had an acronym "MAGA". Did any of my pictures make mention of it?

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Jundo]

I may me misunderstanding things. I know that it is something that Trump says and some people like it and some don't. I did not know that it had an acronym "MAGA". Did any of my pictures make mention of it?

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

I believe that the pictures of national flags and a winning political candidate (with dogs and family or not) were in the same ballpark, and I would feel the same about MAGA photos too.

NOTE: PHOTO WITH EXAMPLE MAGA HAT I POSTED NOW REMOVED

I kind of think this is a little cute though, being a definite cat fanatic myself. NO DOGS ALLOWED in the Cohen house! LOCK EM UP (on a leash)! [evil] ...

NOTE: PHOTO WITH EXAMPLE MAGA HAT I POSTED NOW REMOVED

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jishin]

I believe that the pictures of national flags and a winning political candidate (with dogs and family or not) were in the same ballpark, and I would feel the same about MAGA photos too.

NOTE: PHOTO WITH EXAMPLE MAGA HAT I POSTED NOW REMOVED

I kind of think this is a little cute though, being a definite cat fanatic myself (NO DOGS ALLOWED in the Cohen house! [evil]) ...

NOTE: PHOTO WITH EXAMPLE MAGA HAT I POSTED NOW REMOVED

Gassho, J

STLahThese pictures are great. Thank you for sharing.

I think you have a very difficult job in discerning benign from malignant photos from a political perspective and I would not want to be in your shoes.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Jundo]

These pictures are great. Thank you for sharing.

I think you have a very difficult job in discerning benign from malignant photos from a political perspective and I would not want to be in your shoes.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

No, it is not so hard. Please avoid pictures of candidates, political slogans and national flags.

Thank you.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Jishin]

No, it is not so hard. Please avoid pictures of candidates, political slogans and national flags.

Thank you.

Gassho, Jundo

STLahI have not posted any pictures of candidates, political slogans or national flags. I posted family portraits.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Jundo]

I have not posted any pictures of candidates, political slogans or national flags. I posted family portraits.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

Gee, I didn't know that you were Joe Biden's son, or that you only own Star of David clothing.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jishin]

Gee, I didn't know that you were Joe Biden's son, or that you only own Star of David clothing.

Gassho, J

STLahI wear Star of David and Buddha clothing everyday. I have even worn a Trump hat on occasion though I am not a republican. It's just a hat.

[emoji3]

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201108/0eaf3cb00963522649a4c1b999db9911.jpg

NOTE PICTURE OF HAT SUPPORTING POLITICAL CANDIDATE REMOVED. TATTOO IS HERE AS AN EXAMPLE.

[Jundo]

Well, no need to cover your tattoos. However, please no pictures of candidates, political slogans or national flags.

If you do, I will just take them down.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Jishin]

Well, no need to cover your tattoos. However, please no pictures of candidates, political slogans or national flags.

If you do, I will just take them down.

Gassho, Jundo

STLahThe message you have conveyed is clear. Treeleaf is a place for practice. Leave things that are not conducive to practice such as politics at the door. That said, I don't see how anything I posted goes against this.

Regarding taking things down, I trust your judgement.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Jundo]

gassho1

[Kotei]

Hello.
I totally get, why party politics shouldn't have a place in a Buddhist Sangha.
I totally get that seeing just a family portrait in these pictures and not party politics is practice, too.
I also understand where and why Jundo draws the line.
I also get that our curators and guides see the need to defend the freedom of art and am very sad about their decision.

In the context of the Art Circle, I am also seeing the Social Sculpture in all this.
Jishin has a quite striking way of expression (In German there is the word 'plakativ' for it, literally meaning 'like a poster').
I am seeing it in his animal on black background pictures, zen postings, tattoos and also in this teaching.

Imho Art is not mainly about beauty, but about the viewer relating to the work.
So this work shows the tension, the pressure around this theme and reflects on the relation of Sangha, Art, Politics.

It is just a family portrait. And yet, it is not.
There is the need to defend the freedom of art. And yet, it is not?
I would love to continue practicing Art with you, Meitou and Anne.

Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

[Tai Shi]

Sorry I don’t know the people above but the dog is a beautiful or should I say handsome specimen of a guard dog, German Shepherd bread. I understand that all dogs originated from a common simply wild brown dog and humans bred dogs of today.
Gassho
sat / lah
Tai Shi


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Meitou]

Kotei, thank you for your kind words, you, Jishin, Kokuu and all who have contributed here will always be practicing art, both with Anne and myself and without us, because the circle is formed.
I'll try to be brief. There seems to be a lack of definition here between what constitutes 'politics', and how it differs from 'party politics'.
No-one can escape politics as long as they are breathing. Politics govern our every waking - and sleeping - moment. Even to get to this forum - the devices we use, the internet provider, the search engines, the website hosts - all of these things are governed directly or indirectly by political decisions - and in the main part, the huge companies we all think of as homogenous and international, are at heart, American. Google, Microsoft, Apple, Amazon, Facebook etc.
For those of us who aren't straight white males, politics govern our basic rights, the amount of jurisdiction we have over our own bodies, how we are allowed to define our sexuality, who we can marry. Some of us have been fighting against those oppressions and for the rights of others since we could do joined up writing, politics before we knew the meaning of the word. Some of us can vote in our countries elections, some of us, including myself, cannot - that's politics.
On this forum we have threads that are engaging with ecology and the destruction of our environment - politics plays, and will continue to play, a major role in how that progresses. We have threads relating to how we engage with racism, and how we engage with those of us who aren't straight white males, even to the extent of revisiting our vows and discussing how we can be more aware and inclusive - thanks to politics.
I fully understand and support that this is not the place for party politics. But here's the rub. If someone came here, last week, today, tomorrow, and said Oh help I don't know who to vote for../ Jeez how could a Buddhist vote for../ I would ask you all to support.../ - yes, I agree, that is at best irrelevant and at worst divisive. Lots of other places to engage with those questions.
But if someone came here and said Oh I feel so anxious and confused about the upcoming elections/ I'm so worried about my kids future I can't practice/ I don't know how to practice amongst all this political turmoil/I'm so freaking angry right about what's going on right now I can't sit/ I don't know how to reconcile my vows with how I'm feeling about the political situation - people that's a whole different ball game. And not to provide space for people to reach out in that way is a failure. It's not fulfilling our vows to be compassionate, it isn't socially engaged Buddhism. But you know what, ok, because as I posted elsewhere, other Sanghas and every Dharma related publication that drops into my email box have had a lot of wonderful advice and support for those in need- and I know there have been people here in need of that.
But please Treeleaf, to deny just one small moment represented by one sweet and harmless photo, one small taste of the momentous events that are taking place right now, to deny that moment in an otherwise totally awful and utterly joyless year, that is more of a statement than the photo itself.( And I apologise wholeheartedly to all of those reading this for whom that photo represented an ocassion that has now made their year joyless.)
And as someone who isn't a straight, white male, I feel sad that even after the work we've done with introducing the women's and differently abled ancestors lineage, and that we are reading and applauding a book dedicated to lost female voices, that there is no place here to just briefly honour the historic, immense and for many, life changing, achievement of one woman yesterday, but perhaps I just did that, ha.
I can't speak for Anne, but I do know we share the same thoughts on much of what I've said, and I would suggest with the greatest respect, that this is a good time for us to step away from curating the Art Circle. As Jundo says, hosts aren't needed - art is like water, it flows through the cracks in everything and will always find a voice.
Gassho
Meitou
sat
Edit: ugh sorry for taking up so much space and time

[Jinyo]

Difficult discussion and I can see the point of view from both sides.

So - I'll try to answer from an art point of view. As a viewer we automatically put our own interpretations on images/works of art - symbols speak to us.
As a viewer belonging to an art forum I'm not primarily judging the image from a political point of view but I can see that prominent personalities/hats/flags etc
might be interpreted that way. But as long as there's not any really offensive image being posted surely the whole pageant of life should be allowed on an art forum?
We have this group to express our creativity on many levels - IMHO the calm acceptance of difference can only be polished amidst difference. As long as no one is proselytizing I'm happy
to be challenged, made to think and appreciate views different to my own as expressed through art.

I would be very sad if Ann and Meitou stand down,

gassho2

Will be sitting for remembrance Sunday here in the UK in a few hours

Sorry Meitou - your post coincided with mine. I really understand where you're coming from but feel there are two connected/but different issues and maybe we should repost to the main message board?

[Ryumon]

I'm late to this, having avoided the forum for the past two weeks because of my anxiety about the election.

I have mixed feelings about all this. On the one hand, if someone posted a photo that _they took_ of the Bidens, or of Trump, I might consider that art. Or if someone posted photos that had _artistic value_, taken by someone else, _and crediting the photographer_, that would be different. But here, the posting of photos just as sort of - pardon the expression - pissing on benches to make a point doesn't seem to belong in a forum entitled "Expressing creativity."

Yes, we are all political, and politics is everywhere, but I feel that there is a deliberate attempt to subvert the rules that have been made clear in the forum about leaving politics at the door. These are difficult times, and there is no point inflaming things that are outside the purview of these forums.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

[Meitou]

Difficult discussion and I can see the point of view from both sides.


Sorry Meitou - your post coincided with mine. I really understand where you're coming from but feel there are two connected/but different issues and maybe we should repost to the main message board?

I'm not interested in discussing it further to be honest, I just stated my point of view, which is no more valid than anyone else's. I'm not looking for validation, approval or anything else, I won't be changing my mind because this is something I've been thinking about for a long, long time. I don't want it to be an issue and the more people weigh in, the more diffused the topic becomes. I think a line should be drawn here, and that be an end to it.
As Jundo says, this isn't a democracy, he makes the rules and they have to be respected.
Gassho
Meitou
sattoday lah

[Jundo]

I'm not interested in discussing it further to be honest, I just stated my point of view, which is no more valid than anyone else's. I'm not looking for validation, approval or anything else, I won't be changing my mind because this is something I've been thinking about for a long, long time. I don't want it to be an issue and the more people weigh in, the more diffused the topic becomes. I think a line should be drawn here, and that be an end to it.
As Jundo says, this isn't a democracy, he makes the rules and they have to be respected.
Gassho
Meitou
sattoday lah

I will address your comments in a separate discussion.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?18285-A-Zen-Sangha-is-not-like-Other-Places

[Cooperix]

Every person who has, over the past few years, contributed to the Art Forum I bow in gratitude. There is so much wonderful creative energy in Treeleaf.
It has truly been a humbling and enjoyable experience hosting, along with Meitou this past year, these discussions.

But as Jundo has so succinctly pointed out we are dispensable and you can and will continue to post your wonderful work for all to enjoy whether we are here or not.

I am committed to art, it is my career and my passion. Please if you want to share a project with me please contact me. I am dedicated to encouraging creativity. From the beginning of my tenure, I wanted to make it clear that we are ALL creative creatures whether we make music, words, dance, photos, visual arts, cooking, gardens. And that is something to celebrate.

I am sorry that these 'political' differences seems to have caused bad feelings and hurt. This horrid year has left me raw and stressed and I have found my art practice has been a real respite place. As I long for a place of solace.

I truly have loved my time on the forum and am grateful to Jundo for his trust in me...

Keep making art!

Bowing in gratitude to you all!
Anne

~lahst~

[Meitou]

Every person who has, over the past few years, contributed to the Art Forum I bow in gratitude. There is so much wonderful creative energy in Treeleaf.
It has truly been a humbling and enjoyable experience hosting, along with Meitou this past year, these discussions.

But as Jundo has so succinctly pointed out we are dispensable and you can and will continue to post your wonderful work for all to enjoy whether we are here or not.

I am committed to art, it is my career and my passion. Please if you want to share a project with me please contact me. I am dedicated to encouraging creativity. From the beginning of my tenure, I wanted to make it clear that we are ALL creative creatures whether we make music, words, dance, photos, visual arts, cooking, gardens. And that is something to celebrate.

I am sorry that these 'political' differences seems to have caused bad feelings and hurt. This horrid year has left me raw and stressed and I have found my art practice has been a real respite place. As I long for a place of solace.

I truly have loved my time on the forum and am grateful to Jundo for his trust in me...

Keep making art!

Bowing in gratitude to you all!
Anne

~lahst~

I second that emotion!
Gassho
Meitou
sattoday lah

[Jakuden]

I'm late to this, having avoided the forum for the past two weeks because of my anxiety about the election.

I have mixed feelings about all this. On the one hand, if someone posted a photo that _they took_ of the Bidens, or of Trump, I might consider that art. Or if someone posted photos that had _artistic value_, taken by someone else, _and crediting the photographer_, that would be different. But here, the posting of photos just as sort of - pardon the expression - pissing on benches to make a point doesn't seem to belong in a forum entitled "Expressing creativity."

Yes, we are all political, and politics is everywhere, but I feel that there is a deliberate attempt to subvert the rules that have been made clear in the forum about leaving politics at the door. These are difficult times, and there is no point inflaming things that are outside the purview of these forums.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

Exactly, Kirk, we are not even supposed to repost photos in the "Random Photos" group--the photos are supposed to be original works there. I presume the original intent was to avoid it becoming Facebook at Treeleaf. Why was the reposted picture of a political figure in this thread so important to a Zen arts group? IMO, it wasn't--it was placed here to start conflict, and it did so, very effectively.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Jishin]

Exactly, Kirk, we are not even supposed to repost photos in the "Random Photos" group--the photos are supposed to be original works there. I presume the original intent was to avoid it becoming Facebook at Treeleaf. Why was the reposted picture of a political figure in this thread so important to a Zen arts group? IMO, it wasn't--it was placed here to start conflict, and it did so, very effectively.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatTodayYou are projecting as this is what your intent would have been. You are not a mind reader Jakuden.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Onka]

The real discussion should be about whether moccasin's are a shoe or a slipper.
Gassho
Onka
ST

[Jakuden]

You are projecting as this is what your intent would have been. You are not a mind reader Jakuden.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[emoji23] Ya got me there, yes the secret intent of my every post is to create conflict on the forum. I’ve been going about it all wrong!

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Jishin]

[emoji23] Ya got me there, yes the secret intent of my every post is to create conflict on the forum. I’ve been going about it all wrong!

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ProI think this picture says it best. What do you see? Whatever you see is wrong. We should proceed with this in mind.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201108/bdd220281e74073c7a02c4063725e7fb.jpg

[Jundo]

But as Jundo has so succinctly pointed out we are dispensable

I NEVER said anyone is dispensable and, quite the contrary, you have been doing amazing things here. It is just my policy not to chase people into Treeleaf, nor to chase after folks who wish to go. You are the one who said you are going.

However, sorry, while it is a fine line and I believe in art freedom, this was an end run by Jishin around the "no politics" rule of our Sangha, with a dog picture that "just happened," he never noticed, to have a political candidate sitting there.

After sitting with and sleeping on this overnight, I have decided to delete the picture as well as the national flag pictures and MAGA hat pictures. Sorry, Jishin. We leave support of particular candidates and national flags at the door here. Thank you.

Sorry to run long.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Jishin]

No problem Jundo, you have to do what you think is best for the Sangha. I had to look up the meaning of "end run" as per Wikipedia:

...In gridiron football, an end run is a running play in which the player carrying the ball tries to avoid being tackled by running outside the end (or flank) of the offensive line.[1] It is distinct from a dive, which is a run "up the middle", or an off-tackle run, which is a run through the inside gap created by the offensive tackle...

I think that we create the world with our minds and in this case a story has been created with many different interpretations.


Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Jundo]

I have deleted the photos of candidates, national flags as well as the MAGA hats posted by me.

I have kept the pictures of the rainbow flags because they actually contain both the Buddhist "rainbow flag" and the LGBT+ rainbow flag (which, by the way, are not the same flag. They just happen to both be rainbow flags, the former representing all the many flavors of Buddhism as the colors associated with the below meanings) In our Sangha, the LGBT+ rainbow flag is not considered a political statement as much as a statement of non-discriminatory social policy in keeping with our Vows, Precepts, Wisdom and Compassion. It is a fine line, but those flags of inclusivity ... not nationalism and separation ... are tolerated here.

About the Buddhist flag (there are actually some variations, and Japan has its own version a little different):


The flag was originally designed in 1885 by the Colombo Committee, in Colombo, Ceylon ... At the 1952 World Fellowship of Buddhists, the flag of Buddhists was adopted as the International Buddhist Flag. ... The flag's six vertical bands represent the six colors of the aura which Buddhists believe emanated from the body of the Buddha when he attained Enlightenment:[6][1]

Blue (Pāli and Sanskrit: nīla): The Spirit of Universal Compassion

Yellow (Pāli and Sanskrit: pīta): The Middle Way

Red (Pāli and Sanskrit: lohitaka): The Blessings of Practice – achievement, wisdom, virtue, fortune and dignity

White (Pāli: odāta; Sanskrit: avadāta): The Purity of Dhamma – leading to liberation, timeless

Orange (Pāli: mañjeṭṭha; Sanskrit: mañjiṣṭhā - alternatively scarlet): The Wisdom of the Buddha's teachings

The sixth vertical band, on the fly, is made up of a combination of the five other colors' rectangular bands, and represents a compound of said colors in the aura's spectrum. This new, compound color is referred to as the Truth of the Buddha's teaching or Pabbhassara ('essence of light').

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/Flag_of_Buddhism.svg/200px-Flag_of_Buddhism.svg.png

In Japan, there is a traditional Buddhist flag (五色幕—goshikimaku) which has different colors but is sometimes merged with the design of the international flag to represent international cooperation.[citation needed]
The Japanese Jōdo Shinshū replaces the orange stripe with pink.[citation needed]
In Tibet, the stripes' colors represent the different colors of Buddhist robes comprehensively united in one banner. Tibetan monastic robes are maroon, so the orange stripes in the original design are often replaced with maroon.[citation needed]
Tibetan Buddhists in Nepal replace the orange stripes with plum stripes.[citation needed]
Theravāda Buddhists in Myanmar replace orange with pink, the color of the robe of the country's bhikkhunīs.[citation needed]
Theravāda Buddhists in Thailand opt the usage of a yellow flag with a red dhammacakka; it is sometimes paired with the international Buddhist flag.[citation needed]
Soka Gakkai uses a tricolor of blue, yellow, and red.[7] It is often mistaken to the flag of Romania.

Japanese version:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/Japanese_Buddhist_flag.svg/120px-Japanese_Buddhist_flag.svg.png

Personally, I don't really believe that we need a "Buddhist Flag" because, although inclusive of Buddhists, perhaps still dividing from others. Hmmm.

Sorry to have written long.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Onka]

No problem Jundo, you have to do what you think is best for the Sangha. I had to look up the meaning of "end run" as per Wikipedia:

...In gridiron football, an end run is a running play in which the player carrying the ball tries to avoid being tackled by running outside the end (or flank) of the offensive line.[1] It is distinct from a dive, which is a run "up the middle", or an off-tackle run, which is a run through the inside gap created by the offensive tackle...

I think that we create the world with our minds and in this case a story has been created with many different interpretations.


Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

Not intending to derail things but the story I've created involves Green Bay winning the Superbowl. Alas I think that without Clay Matthews and with Aaron Rodgers getting older it will be some time before my story becomes a reality. #GoPackGo
In other news I'm still waiting for someone to commit to moccasin's being slippers or shoes...
Gassho
Onka
ST/tried to play the diffusing card.

[Jishin]

Not intending to derail things but the story I've created involves Green Bay winning the Superbowl. Alas I think that without Clay Matthews and with Aaron Rodgers getting older it will be some time before my story becomes a reality. #GoPackGo
In other news I'm still waiting for someone to commit to moccasin's being slippers or shoes...
Gassho
Onka
ST/tried to play the diffusing card.

I commit to shoes. :)

[Onka]

I have deleted the photos of candidates, national flags as well as the MAGA hats posted by me.

I have kept the pictures of the rainbow flags because they actually contain both the Buddhist "rainbow flag" and the LGBT+ rainbow flag (which, by the way, are not the same flag. They just happen to both be rainbow flags, the former representing all the many flavors of Buddhism as the colors associated with the below meanings) In our Sangha, the LGBT+ rainbow flag is not considered a political statement as much as a statement of non-discriminatory social policy in keeping with our Vows, Precepts, Wisdom and Compassion. It is a fine line, but those flags of inclusivity ... not nationalism and separation ... are tolerated here.

About the Buddhist flag (there are actually some variations, and Japan has its own version a little different):



Personally, I don't really believe that we need a "Buddhist Flag" because, although inclusive of Buddhists, perhaps still dividing from others. Hmmm.

Sorry to have written long.

Gassho, J

STLah

At risk of being banned again I have to say sorry Jundo but the rainbow flag is extremely political, as political and beyond social policy for many Queer folk as the black flag is for those of us not into party politics. Many have been murdered for it just as people have been murdered for the Star of David, Palestinian and Anarchist flags.
With respect
Gassho
Onka
ST
Not trying to cause trouble just clarifying.

[Jundo]

In other news I'm still waiting for someone to commit to moccasin's being slippers or shoes...


Onka, your asking the question is culturally appropriating.

(Actually, I am not opening a serious discussion of that, just make a little snide attempt at humor to lighten things). :)

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

At risk of being banned again I have to say sorry Jundo but the rainbow flag is extremely political, as political and beyond social policy for many Queer folk as the black flag is for those of us not into party politics. Many have been murdered for it just as people have been murdered for the Star of David, Palestinian and Anarchist flags.


I know that the LGBTQ+ rainbow flag is political and folks have struggled and died for it ... but I would still put it as primarily a symbol of unity, equality, coming together, human rights that places it in a category with, I feel, the "peace sign" flag, the Red Cross flag or the UN flag (some who are against world governance would disagree with me about the latter). The Israeli flag, Palestinian flag, Hammer & Sickle, Anarchist flags, US flag etc. are primarily politics and/or nationalism.

It is a fine line, but that is why the rainbow flag or Red Cross flag etc. would be okay here.

https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/p/peace005-1.jpg

Gassho, J

STLah

[Koushi]

The real discussion should be about whether moccasin's are a shoe or a slipper.
Gassho
Onka
ST

As a Native American might I provide the third option of “both”? Depending on which part of the country/landscape you’re in, it could be a more hard leather shoe type or soft sole slipperish type. gassho1:)

Gassho,
Jesse
ST

[Jishin]

I know that the LGBTQ+ rainbow flag is political and folks have struggled and died for it ... but I would still put it as primarily a symbol of unity, equality, coming together, human rights that places it in a category with, I feel, the "peace sign" flag, the Red Cross flag or the UN flag (some who are against world governance would disagree with me about the latter). The Israeli flag, Palestinian flag, Hammer & Sickle, Anarchist flags, US flag etc. are primarily politics and/or nationalism.

It is a fine line, but that is why the rainbow flag or Red Cross flag etc. would be okay here.

https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/p/peace005-1.jpg

Gassho, J

STLah

There are problems with symbols and its interpretations. Take the following images as an example:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201109/97506a91e8a1ff0a0b8095da5c935dfb.pnghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201109/a5bf515304c3afce8e6f449e389a9cc5.png

JUNDO: GRAPHIC HOLOCAUST IMAGEs REMOVED DUE TO REPORTS OF BEING TRIGGERING TO SOME MEMBERS

How should we interpret the Star of David?

Gassho, Jishin, STLah

[Jundo]

Yes.

We are about peace and against violence, discrimination, ethnic cleansing and genocide. That is from our Vows and Precepts, Ahimsa and such.

Did you doubt that, Jishin? Your pictures do not shock, for they are the very Samsara, sometimes so ugly, we are here to see through and live in peace within as best we can.

The Star of David on a camp uniform is not a flag, but the very symbol of "we are different, you are different" that flags represent. The Nazis sure loved their flags!

https://www.sbs.com.au/movies/sites/sbs.com.au.film/files/styles/body_image/public/triumph_1000.jpg?itok=s8AK_zkx&mtime=1471456424

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jishin]

Yes.

We are about peace and against violence, discrimination, ethnic cleansing and genocide. That is from our Vows and Precepts, Ahimsa and such.

Did you doubt that, Jishin? Your pictures do not shock, for they are the very Samsara, sometimes so ugly, we are here to see through and live in peace within as best we can.

The Star of David on a camp uniform is not a flag, but the very symbol of "we are different, you are different" that flags represent. The Nazi sure loved their flags!

https://www.sbs.com.au/movies/sites/sbs.com.au.film/files/styles/body_image/public/triumph_1000.jpg?itok=s8AK_zkx&mtime=1471456424

Gassho, J

STLah

The Israeli flag means a lot of things to different people. It is a place of comfort and peace for people to go to during time of suffering and this is why you see it everywhere. To minimize its importance in anyway or fashion is to deny millions relief from suffering. Ponder this: poof - no more flag. What now? Where do we put the millions of Jews in Israel or the millions of Jews world wide that now have no place to go?

I personally have an interest in the flag as I am an involuntary member of the tribe of Judah. This also makes me an Israeli Citizen the moment I set foot in Israel. The same goes for you. My great grandfather was murdered in Dachau and my great grandmother and grandmother have the middle name of “Sara” which was a gift from Hitler to more easily identify German Jews. My children would be murdered too in Hitler’s Germany and so would yours.

Regarding symbolism of the clothing that I wear, I don’t generally wear republican or democratic clothing. On occasion I wear gay friendly symbolism as my father was gay and we have several friends that are gay and we are supportive. Regarding Buddhist symbolism, well, my whole torso is a Buddha tattoo. My right arm, the one that can not be hidden well has a prominent Star of David which has served a reminder to honor my heritage. As I told you privately, I have also picked up more of an interest in Judaism and have been studying from a historical and intellectual perspective the roots of our people. Israel means “struggle with god” so Judaism is perfectly compatible with Soto Zen.

I wish you would be more respectful of the Israeli flag. It does not mean what you think it means.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Jundo]

Ponder this: poof - no more flag. What now? Where do we put the millions of Jews in Israel or the millions of Jews world wide that now have no place to go?

Who says I am not respectful of the Israeli flag? I lost relatives in the Holocaust too. I hope Jews have a place where they can go, Palestinians have a place where they can go. we all have a safe place where we can safely go. Please go plant a tree in Israel, protest the treatment of Palestinians if you wish, and raise as many flags as you wish. Who is stopping anyone from doing so?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/05/israeli-forces-leave-41-children-homeless-after-razing-palestinian-village-un-says

Just not in this Sangha, where we step beyond flags and borders, me vs. you, to know another kind of peace and union.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Jishin]

Who says I am not respectful of the Israeli flag? I lost relatives in the Holocaust too. I hope Jews have a place where they can go, Palestinians have a place where they can go. we all have a safe place where we can safely go. Please go plant a tree in Israel, protest the treatment of Palestinians if you wish, and raise as many flags as you wish. Who is stopping anyone from doing so?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/05/israeli-forces-leave-41-children-homeless-after-razing-palestinian-village-un-says

Just not in this Sangha, where we step beyond flags and borders, me vs. you, to know another kind of peace and union.

Gassho, Jundo

STLahSeveral photos that you took down had a symbol of an Israeli flag that I wear in my day to day activities. You have placed a higher value on some symbols than others (devaluated the Israeli flag) by chosing wich ones to take down.

Regarding the middle east history and solution: it's complicated and a work in progress but you certainly should not make things worse by taking away Israel (the Israeli flag).

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Jundo]

Several photos that you took down had a symbol of an Israeli flag that I wear in my day to day activities. You have placed a higher value on some symbols than others (devaluated the Israeli flag) by chosing wich ones to take down.

Regarding the middle east history and solution: it's complicated and a work in progress but you certainly should not make things worse by taking away Israel (the Israeli flag).

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

I did not take it away. The flag still is there, just not here. And, outside this Sangha and its pictures, you are free to wear and not wear what you wish.

Yes, I take down some symbols and not others, that is correct. Please post all the peace signs and rainbow flags that you wish (so long as they are not a national flag).

I left your wonderful son's "Shalom" shirt because "Shalom" = "Salam" = Peace.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jishin]

I did not take it away. The flag still is there, just not here. And, outside this Sangha and its pictures, you are free to wear and not wear what you wish.

Yes, I take down some symbols and not others, that is correct. Please post all the peace signs and rainbow flags that you wish (so long as they are not a national flag).

I left your wonderful son's "Shalom" shirt because "Shalom" = "Salam" = Peace.

Gassho, J

STLahOk. Here is some Shalom for you.

Time to go to bed.

!שלום

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201109/3fc68adcf6aef6b483701d3179b755f2.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201109/7868ebbd6af5fcac0a6f7e8ab1f03651.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201109/d10c28c78ef57f1c8b8abf6c88954b2f.jpg

[Jundo]

Lovely Shaloms, Jishim, and no problem with those at all. [gassholook]

But the Legend of Zelda shirt is not allowed, as the game openly supports the kingdom of Hyrule in its battle for liberation from Ganon, the evil warlord demon. Too political, not to mention discriminatory against evil warlord demons. Also, in the upper left corner of the shirt, a flag with the Hylean crest can clearly be seen surrounding a weapon of violence. In a Zendo, we are beyond Zelda.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcSH1Y91h9iZmTnsIlkrypCbIYQe2A_ cExsVFwlZkxjzZewlor1lY4D4eByZLIIT1rLcgjhjM_J86pEkM z4g9wfajvTTFAe36KIk8FY9&usqp=CAU&ec=45714079

Make Hyrule Great Again!

(just kidding) :p

Gassho, J

STLah

[gaurdianaq]

Lovely Shaloms, Jishim, and no problem with those at all. [gassholook]

But the Legend of Zelda shirt is not allowed, as the game openly supports the kingdom of Hyrule in its battle for liberation from Ganon, the evil warlord demon. Too political, not to mention discriminatory against evil warlord demons. Also, in the upper left corner of the shirt, a flag with the Hylean crest can clearly be seen surrounding a weapon of violence. In a Zendo, we are beyond Hyrule vs. Ganon.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcSH1Y91h9iZmTnsIlkrypCbIYQe2A_ cExsVFwlZkxjzZewlor1lY4D4eByZLIIT1rLcgjhjM_J86pEkM z4g9wfajvTTFAe36KIk8FY9&usqp=CAU&ec=45714079

Make Hyrule Great Again!

(just kidding) :p

Gassho, J

STLah

This post just brought me great joy.

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Jundo]

Here's a picture of my parrot and one of my cats. I call it, Bird out for a Walk.

https://i.imgur.com/OzQTW6P.jpg

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah

The picture of cat and bird will be allowed, Evan, as it does not express favoritism for either feline or fowl.

However, if the pink gloves + cat are some sneaky attempt to convey the "Pink Pussy" Hat message while giving the bird to hidden "hands" which control male dominated society, it will not be permitted.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/583078bc197aea0348039d7e/1487370373753-3N92RKLN31N0KA07BZXT/?content-type=image%2Fjpeg

(just jokin) :encouragement:

Gassho, J

STLah

[gaurdianaq]

The picture of cat and bird will be allowed, Evan, as it does not express favoritism for either feline or fowl.

However, if the pink gloves + cat are some sneaky attempt to convey the "Pink Pussy" Hat message while giving the bird to hidden "hands" which control male dominated society, it will not be permitted.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/583078bc197aea0348039d7e/1487370373753-3N92RKLN31N0KA07BZXT/?content-type=image%2Fjpeg

Gassho, J

STLah

I'll admit out of any interpretation for the random glove on the floor, that was not something I was expecting... And I'm trying to figure out if that was satire or not... I'll be honest I just wanted to lighten the mood with some animal pics...

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Jundo]

It was satire. :cool:

[gaurdianaq]

It was satire. :cool:

I'll be honest... you scared me XD I looked it up and saw that the Pussyhat movement was a real thing and I'm just thinking "Oh no someone tried to find deeper meaning from the mess in my room..."

I even remember considering making a joke saying "what could the pink glove mean!?!?!"

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Jundo]

;)gassho2

[Jinyo]

Just wanted to say thank you to Meitou and Anne for their input. The prompts have been stimulating and given focus. Perhaps we will all need to pitch in with ideas
and suggestions to keep the vibrancy in the group going. Thinking positive :)

Gassho

Jinyo

Sat today

[Ryumon]

I'm not going to participate in this forum any more. This has turned into a Facebook thread, with a number of people just wanting to shock, and I don't come to Treeleaf for that.

I'm also very sad that there are certain people here on Treeleaf who don't understand what right speech is.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

[Inshin]

I'm not going to participate in this forum any more. This has turned into a Facebook thread, with a number of people just wanting to shock, and I don't come to Treeleaf for that.

I'm also very sad that there are certain people here on Treeleaf who don't understand what right speech is.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

Exactly. I came here for Dogen, Dharma, zazen and a practice of un- identifying my true self.

Gassho
Sat

[Kokuu]

with a number of people just wanting to shock

Is it a number of people, or just one?

The Art Circle is supposed to be an expression of practice as is everywhere else on the forum and mostly is exactly that.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Risho]

Jishin - I think everyone agree pictures like those share a lesson we should never forget because each of us has the capability to do and become that, to transform our enemies into subhumans that we exert our revenge upon.

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Sekishi]

A gentle reminder for us all about what constitutes Right Speech:

1. Is it factual / true?
2. Is it helpful / beneficial?
3. Is it spoken with kindness and good-will? (with a positive intention for all involved)
4. Is it pleasant / endearing? (spoken in a way the other person can hear)
5. Is it timely? (this can be the toughest - the other four can be true, but sometimes now is just not the time to say it...)

But you don't have to take my word for it:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.058.than.html

Gassho,
Sekishi
#sat

[Kokuu]

Just to say that any post which seems provocative for the sake of it will be deleted unless Jundo overrules me, which he is free to do.

The guidance which Sekishi gives above is very helpful (gassho1) and reminder #1 does not overrule the other four.


Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Jishin]

Just to say that any post which seems provocative for the sake of it will be deleted unless Jundo overrules me, which he is free to do.

The guidance which Sekishi gives above is very helpful (gassho1) and reminder #1 does not overrule the other four.


Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

Hi Kokuu,

I may be misinterpreting you, but the post you deleted contained pictures of the Holocaust with a question posed to you as to why you felt that I wanted to use the pictures for shock value and with no other motive.

I have carefully read Sekishi's suggestion and feel that a picture paints a thousand words and the pictures you deleted are appropriate in the context of the discussion that we are having. Please examine your motives carefully.

Here is an interesting link that talks about not wanting to look at our human history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Onka]

This short message many will think ironic coming from me but the truth is that I've never set out to be a disruptive element within the Treeleaf Sangha. Moreover, if anything all I've done is bring a different perspective than the dominant narrative.
I need to say that the way this Sangha has publicly represented itself since the US election has been pretty ordinary. In my humble opinion there was no single person to blame for what transpired within the publicly accessible Art forum but it has resulted in two valued members of the Sangha pulling back from moderating roles. Shame on us all. Yes ALL! This public display was nothing short of a pissing contest where the main players know better.
Jishin, you are an intelligent man who understands the human condition very well. I would humbly suggest that you could've taken your brinksmanship to the pŕivate messaging arena where you and Wikipedia could battle Jundo and Wikipedia. If I can try and do better and be better then you can too.
Jundo, you didn't need to win. You could've and should've closed the thread concerned a lot earlier. Instead it came across to me at least that you needed to prove a point. Fair enough, but how about reading the mood of the Sangha a bit better? Yes, when practicing Shikantaza we should leave politics at the door but in the lead up and immediate aftermath of what is a hugely important political time many of us have needed to feel ok about expressing our feelings with our fellow Sangha sisters, brothers and others. Again, of course you're right about leaving politics at the door and yes I need to hold onto labels lighter but post-election Jundo you didn't need to publicly duke it out on the Art forum of all places despite that being where the alleged infringement occurred. You too could've taken the high road and gone to private messaging as you've done with me many times after giving one of my posts the hook but instead kept the pissing contest going with the use of jokes, emojis and images you knew would inflame rather placate Jishin.
Yes, Treeleaf is yours. Yes, you're the judge, jury and interpreter but what has been left as a public record of Treeleaf is an unnecessary stain on us all.
This brings me to the rest of us...
A couple of folk tried to diffuse things or redirect this train wreck but we didn't do enough. Personally I was quietly begging another Priest or Unsui to intervene, particularly "the thread killer" Sekishi haha but alas I watched a train wreck take us all with it.
I'm beyond caring if this post gets me banned to be honest because that's what I've been... honest.
I respect Jundo as a teacher despite openly admitting that privately he and I have had some colourful interactions. Just because Jundo is our chosen teacher does not mean he's perfect. He's not and will admit that like the rest of us he's perfectly imperfect. We can respect our teacher while also questioning his timing or communicated teaching.
If this is the last I'm heard from here at Treeleaf I wish you all well. I will be practicing with you all from rural Queensland, Australia hoping that Treeleaf continues to be a tremendous Zen resource and an open minded place of practice growth.
Especially now, be kind to yourselves and look out for each other.
With warmest regards
Gassho
Onka/Anna
Sat today

*I acknowledge but don't apologise for going over 3 sentences.

[Hensho]

I'm not sure what this is about: I dont read every single thread so I'm not hip to whatever is going on. I can't be alone in this perspective, so perhaps even this posting could have been taken off line?

Gassho,
Hensho

Satlah

Sent from my LM-Q710.FGN using Tapatalk

[Onka]

This post was posted in a members only forum specifically so that members only can read it. The post above is a little vague but enough of us saw the unfolding mess so will know exactly where and what happened. What I wrote could not have been shared privately nor should it have.
Gassho
Onka
ST

[Jundo]

Hi Onka,

You are referring to the thread in the Art Forum where Jishin posted a picture of Joe Biden, and some other pictures of Israeli and American Flags, which I objected to because we do not engage in partisan politics in this Forum (including the Art Forum), and we avoid specific candidates, political symbols (e.g., MAGA hats), and national flags, etc. I later removed the pictures of Joe Biden and the flags after first just attaching a note that they are really not acceptable. Jishin responded by posting graphic pictures of the Holocaust. We left the Holocaust photos with a comment such as "This does not shock us, as we Zen folks look right at the ugliness of Samsara," but the priests and I also discussed whether to pull them down. Here is where the discussion began:

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?17998-EXPRESSING-CREATIVITY-Media-Arts-photography-videography-photo-collage-etc&p=275285&viewfull=1#post275285

I don't like to close threads, and we rarely do around here. I like to keep discussions of such Forum policy issues out in the open, as I did here (and did with some of Onka's posts in the past) although I ALSO engaged in some private PM'ing with the people involved to try to settle things. Is that wrong? Why should I have hidden the discussion? Why not try to diffuse tensions with a little humor here and there too?

I am sorry if our two hosts of the Art Forum decided to quite (not at my request), but I try to avoid partisan politics in any part of the Forum.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Kokuu]

A couple of folk tried to diffuse things or redirect this train wreck but we didn't do enough. Personally I was quietly begging another Priest or Unsui to intervene, particularly "the thread killer" Sekishi haha but alas I watched a train wreck take us all with it.

Thank you for your thoughts, Onka.

Did it really take us all with it? Interactions like this are part of being human and less than perfect handling of situations will also happen as we try to deal with what arises as best we can.

Did anyone learn for the first time that Treeleaf Zendo is not perfect and sometimes there are disruptions and conflicts? Maybe.

What I would say, is that these kinds of situations do arise from time to time and then are dealt with in one way or another and we carry on.

In that way, it is not unlike our practice with the precepts.

Jundo and the rest of us in the training group try to have a light hand in terms of moderation and it may be that sometimes we need to step in earlier. But, we are doing our best.

We try to learn from each experience like this and strive to do better next time something similar arises. But, each time something happens like this, it is still part of the great whole of flowing reality and to expect life, even in a Zendo, to not contain moments of attrition, would be to deny reality.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Jundo]

By the way, it is very difficult to balance this "Freedom of Artistic Expression" and "No Partisan Politics in the Sangha" rule. I just wrote this to our priests.



I also want to keep the "no politics, no partisan political symbols (like MAGA hats), no candidates" rule for the Art forum. It is the same for all the Forum. For example, I am happy to celebrate "women's equality in leadership and government" as a general principle in keeping with our modern Buddhist ethical views (it sure wasn't the traditional view), but I hesitate to celebrate "Ruth Bader Ginsburg" or "Kamala Harris" by name, because then others will want to celebrate Amy Coney Barrett (RBG's conservative replacement), Ivanka, Margaret Thatcher, etc. etc. by name, and we are into partisan politics. It must apply to our art forum too. Freedom of art expression can only go so far in our Sangha, and we cannot allow images that are pornographic, racist, based on the theme of "praise Jesus," "Free the Palestinians" (or Tibet), God Bless America, "Get Russia Out of Ukraine," "Trump was Robbed" etc. etc. in our art forum no matter how any of us personally feel about those causes. We are not a public museum, but a group dedicated to art for purposes of Buddhist and Zen practice.

Furthermore, really in original conception, the art forum was to have a Zen/Buddhist themed emphasis, but it is fine to have a general art emphasis if that is preferred. I am not sure myself what is a "Zen" theme versus general art.

(Also, if I may, I am going to merge this discussion, and the discussion with Jishin, in a single thread on the topic in the Art Forum)

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Risho]

I hope no one quits anything; I mean we're normally pretty easy going; sometimes people get ruffled, but we are all one big Sangha and, especially if you have a dharma name, please stay; we've all taken the time to study and sew the rakusu. We don't always agree, but those vows should really mean something.

Please no one quit- I know you don't always see it, but I get pretty peeved sometimes, and I'm ready to quit. I think Jishin said he quits all the time. [claps] It's just natural that we get on each others' nerves. I know sometimes I really come in "hot". I'm consciously trying to not to be so aggressive even when it's hard not to.

I mean, Onka, not to pick on you, but I've noticed a huge change in your posting for the better, and I try to follow your example.

Please no one quit. This is a special place; let's not forget that.

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Onka]

Yes Jundo, feel free to merge anything you want. It is with a huge sense of relief and an audible PHEW! that my opening post was received as it was intended, almost a plea from a beginner practitioner and Zen muppet. I always look to move forward as a person and as a practitioner of the Way, one and the same and felt real pain in Meitou's words. I just wish I could've done more for everyone concerned.
Deep bows
Onka
ST

[Jakuden]

This short message many will think ironic coming from me but the truth is that I've never set out to be a disruptive element within the Treeleaf Sangha. Moreover, if anything all I've done is bring a different perspective than the dominant narrative.
I need to say that the way this Sangha has publicly represented itself since the US election has been pretty ordinary. In my humble opinion there was no single person to blame for what transpired within the publicly accessible Art forum but it has resulted in two valued members of the Sangha pulling back from moderating roles. Shame on us all. Yes ALL! This public display was nothing short of a pissing contest where the main players know better.
Jishin, you are an intelligent man who understands the human condition very well. I would humbly suggest that you could've taken your brinksmanship to the pŕivate messaging arena where you and Wikipedia could battle Jundo and Wikipedia. If I can try and do better and be better then you can too.
Jundo, you didn't need to win. You could've and should've closed the thread concerned a lot earlier. Instead it came across to me at least that you needed to prove a point. Fair enough, but how about reading the mood of the Sangha a bit better? Yes, when practicing Shikantaza we should leave politics at the door but in the lead up and immediate aftermath of what is a hugely important political time many of us have needed to feel ok about expressing our feelings with our fellow Sangha sisters, brothers and others. Again, of course you're right about leaving politics at the door and yes I need to hold onto labels lighter but post-election Jundo you didn't need to publicly duke it out on the Art forum of all places despite that being where the alleged infringement occurred. You too could've taken the high road and gone to private messaging as you've done with me many times after giving one of my posts the hook but instead kept the pissing contest going with the use of jokes, emojis and images you knew would inflame rather placate Jishin.
Yes, Treeleaf is yours. Yes, you're the judge, jury and interpreter but what has been left as a public record of Treeleaf is an unnecessary stain on us all.
This brings me to the rest of us...
A couple of folk tried to diffuse things or redirect this train wreck but we didn't do enough. Personally I was quietly begging another Priest or Unsui to intervene, particularly "the thread killer" Sekishi haha but alas I watched a train wreck take us all with it.
I'm beyond caring if this post gets me banned to be honest because that's what I've been... honest.
I respect Jundo as a teacher despite openly admitting that privately he and I have had some colourful interactions. Just because Jundo is our chosen teacher does not mean he's perfect. He's not and will admit that like the rest of us he's perfectly imperfect. We can respect our teacher while also questioning his timing or communicated teaching.
If this is the last I'm heard from here at Treeleaf I wish you all well. I will be practicing with you all from rural Queensland, Australia hoping that Treeleaf continues to be a tremendous Zen resource and an open minded place of practice growth.
Especially now, be kind to yourselves and look out for each other.
With warmest regards
Gassho
Onka/Anna
Sat today

*I acknowledge but don't apologise for going over 3 sentences.

I hear you!

It's times like this that I know practice works, because maybe in the past I would have been equally exasperated, but instead I really just feel a little urgency about going to do my priest assignment without being distracted by forum drama. LOL

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Jishin]

Yes Jundo, feel free to merge anything you want. It is with a huge sense of relief and an audible PHEW! that my opening post was received as it was intended, almost a plea from a beginner practitioner and Zen muppet. I always look to move forward as a person and as a practitioner of the Way, one and the same and felt real pain in Meitou's words. I just wish I could've done more for everyone concerned.
Deep bows
Onka
ST

Hi Onka,

I deal with extremely difficult situations on a daily basis due to my line of work and may have visited with 25 patients today alone. In between juggling work, being a father, husband and other duties I somehow find time to hang out at treeleaf. What anyone says here that I disagree with does not occupy space for very long. I don't have energy for grudges. I say my peace (שלום/shalom in hebrew) and somebody says theirs and we have a final arbitration at the end of the discussion. It's all good.

Arguments (without affect) are necessary to arrive at truth. My lawyer patients have been rumored to engage in fierce battles in court but are good friends during happy hour.

As I see it, I prosecuted my case to the best of my ability and the supreme court has ruled. It is a waste of my time to pursue the same case again unless there is a slight variation to the circumstances and I somehow can muster the intrapsychic energy to do so because frankly Jundo just wears you down when you battle him. :)

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Jundo]

Hi Onka,

I deal with extremely difficult situations on a daily basis due to my line of work and may have visited with 25 patients today alone. In between juggling work, being a father, husband and other duties I somehow find time to hang out at treeleaf. What anyone says here that I disagree with does not occupy space for very long. I don't have energy for grudges. I say my peace (שלום/shalom in hebrew) and somebody says theirs and we have a final arbitration at the end of the discussion. It's all good.

Arguments (without affect) are necessary to arrive at truth. My lawyer patients have been rumored to engage in fierce battles in court but are good friends during happy hour.

As I see it, I prosecuted my case to the best of my ability and the supreme court has ruled. It is a waste of my time to pursue the same case again unless there is a slight variation to the circumstances and I somehow can muster the intrapsychic energy to do so because frankly Jundo just wears you down when you battle him. :)

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

Yes, please cool down a few days, relax and take some walks, and then come back to Treeleaf and let's talk about other nice subjects ... that are not political. Thank you.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Meitou]

This short message many will think ironic coming from me but the truth is that I've never set out to be a disruptive element within the Treeleaf Sangha. Moreover, if anything all I've done is bring a different perspective than the dominant narrative.
I need to say that the way this Sangha has publicly represented itself since the US election has been pretty ordinary. In my humble opinion there was no single person to blame for what transpired within the publicly accessible Art forum but it has resulted in two valued members of the Sangha pulling back from moderating roles. Shame on us all. Yes ALL! This public display was nothing short of a pissing contest where the main players know better.
Jishin, you are an intelligent man who understands the human condition very well. I would humbly suggest that you could've taken your brinksmanship to the pŕivate messaging arena where you and Wikipedia could battle Jundo and Wikipedia. If I can try and do better and be better then you can too.
Jundo, you didn't need to win. You could've and should've closed the thread concerned a lot earlier. Instead it came across to me at least that you needed to prove a point. Fair enough, but how about reading the mood of the Sangha a bit better? Yes, when practicing Shikantaza we should leave politics at the door but in the lead up and immediate aftermath of what is a hugely important political time many of us have needed to feel ok about expressing our feelings with our fellow Sangha sisters, brothers and others. Again, of course you're right about leaving politics at the door and yes I need to hold onto labels lighter but post-election Jundo you didn't need to publicly duke it out on the Art forum of all places despite that being where the alleged infringement occurred. You too could've taken the high road and gone to private messaging as you've done with me many times after giving one of my posts the hook but instead kept the pissing contest going with the use of jokes, emojis and images you knew would inflame rather placate Jishin.
Yes, Treeleaf is yours. Yes, you're the judge, jury and interpreter but what has been left as a public record of Treeleaf is an unnecessary stain on us all.
This brings me to the rest of us...
A couple of folk tried to diffuse things or redirect this train wreck but we didn't do enough. Personally I was quietly begging another Priest or Unsui to intervene, particularly "the thread killer" Sekishi haha but alas I watched a train wreck take us all with it.
I'm beyond caring if this post gets me banned to be honest because that's what I've been... honest.
I respect Jundo as a teacher despite openly admitting that privately he and I have had some colourful interactions. Just because Jundo is our chosen teacher does not mean he's perfect. He's not and will admit that like the rest of us he's perfectly imperfect. We can respect our teacher while also questioning his timing or communicated teaching.
If this is the last I'm heard from here at Treeleaf I wish you all well. I will be practicing with you all from rural Queensland, Australia hoping that Treeleaf continues to be a tremendous Zen resource and an open minded place of practice growth.
Especially now, be kind to yourselves and look out for each other.
With warmest regards
Gassho
Onka/Anna
Sat today

*I acknowledge but don't apologise for going over 3 sentences.

Thank you Onka for articulating so well what I've been witnessing, I agree with every word you've written.
I'd like to make it clear that Anne and I have not left TL, we, as hosts who are not needed, have only stepped down from our roles in the Art forum, and stepped back from the general forum discussions.
On behalf of Anne and myself, I thank those of you who have thanked us privately and on the forum for the work we put in here. And thank you Onka for your support.
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday lah

[Jundo]

Hi Meitou,

This is not so, you are both most needed and appreciated, and perhaps you might consider to stay.


... as hosts who are not needed ...

Gassho, Jundo

STlah

[Cooperix]

I too would like to express my gratitude to those Sangha members that offered support both on the forum and in private messages to Meitou and myself. This has been encouraging and very helpful.

bowing to all.
Anne

~lahst~

[Jishin]

Sunset in West Texas just now.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201113/f7acc8f69f37e5065dcc0f8fe31a8f30.jpg

[Onka]

Absolutely breathtaking Jishin.
Gassho
Onka
ST

[Jishin]

Thank you Onka!

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Sunset in West Texas just now.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201113/f7acc8f69f37e5065dcc0f8fe31a8f30.jpg

Wait a second, is that a tiny Joe Biden I see way over on the right there, by that tree? [scared]

JUST KIDDIN, JUST KIDDIN! :D I simply could not resist to make a funny. :p

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jishin]

Wait a second, is that a tiny Joe Biden I see way over on the right there, by that tree? [scared]

JUST KIDDIN, JUST KIDDIN! :D I simply could not resist to make a funny. [emoji14]

Gassho, J

STLah[emoji3][emoji120]

[Jundo]

I am going to remove the more graphic holocaust photos, if that is okay. It is not because we Zen folks look away from anything ... not the sometime beauty nor sometime ugliness and violence of this world.

Rather, it is because I have had reports of it triggering a couple of folks prone to be sensitive to violence, and I don't wish to bring more suffering to them. We all know what is in the pictures. My warning at the top of the thread is not sufficient.

If there is objection for any reason, the pictures can be restored.

(Sorry to run long)

Gassho, Jundo

STLAH

[Onka]

Really large and damaging Spring storm just passed us. We just caught the edge thank goodness but still lost power thanks to powerlines coming down. We live in a sub-tropical climate where the warm seasons equal lots of beautiful storms.
This is an accidental shot of lightening in clouds that I captured when heading outside to literally close the shutters haha.
Maybe I'll call this shot "Mother Nature's Beautiful Accident" haha
Gassho
Onka
ST
*I acknowledge going over 3 sentences https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201113/f5fc2b446aa7dc7a348f89de236050c8.jpg

Sent from my SM-A205YN using Tapatalk

[Kokuu]

Just to say that the original visual media thread still exists for the posting of photos and such like.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?17998-EXPRESSING-CREATIVITY-Media-Arts-photography-videography-photo-collage-etc

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Jishin]

I am going to remove the more graphic holocaust photos, if that is okay. It is not because we Zen folks look away from anything ... not the sometime beauty nor sometime ugliness and violence of this world.

Rather, it is because I have had reports of it triggering a couple of folks prone to be sensitive to violence, and I don't wish to bring more suffering to them. We all know what is in the pictures. My warning at the top of the thread is not sufficient.

If there is objection for any reason, the pictures can be restored.

(Sorry to run long)

Gassho, Jundo

STLAH

I agree with decreasing suffering. Here is a link to Holocaust info:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

Here is a couple of photos that related to our discussion that are of historical significance. One is a death certificate of my great grandfather from Dachau and the other documents are documents showing how my great grandmother and grandmother had their middle name changed to “Sara” for easier identification of authorities. Sara is a biblical name.

Gassho, Jishin, ST
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201113/392493d71c24923cb8d86a5178fe67e5.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201113/2767492a89611769810bf00703263c60.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201113/1c0c51fb5a67cb52e4314d54db5d28c6.jpg

[Inshin]

I agree with decreasing suffering. Here is a link to Holocaust info:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

Here is a couple of photos that related to our discussion that are of historical significance. One is a death certificate of my great grandfather from Dachau and the other documents are documents showing how my great grandmother and grandmother had their middle name changed to “Sara” for easier identification of authorities. Sara is a biblical name.

Gassho, Jishin, ST
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201113/392493d71c24923cb8d86a5178fe67e5.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201113/2767492a89611769810bf00703263c60.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201113/1c0c51fb5a67cb52e4314d54db5d28c6.jpg

These are so precious! I have a fork with swastika from nazi era that my grandfather was using in Auschwitz, thankfully he survived the ordeal.
Remembering our ancestors and the history is so important. However : what was your original face before your great great great great parents were born?

Gassho
Sat

[Jundo]

Let us have a world beyond us and them, now and then, birth and death.

To realize so, we must make a world beyond excess desire, anger and violence, mine and yours, races and groups.

Here is a Koan: What leaps past Jews and Nazis??

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jishin]

Here is a Koan: What leaps past Jews and Nazis??



Jundo!

[emoji3]

[Jishin]

These are so precious! I have a fork with swastika from nazi era that my grandfather was using in Auschwitz, thankfully he survived the ordeal.
Remembering our ancestors and the history is so important. However : what was your original face before your great great great great parents were born?

Gassho
SatThank you Ania!

My mother was kind of moody and when angry she would call me Hitler. So I guess my original face could be Hitler. [emoji3]

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Kotei]

Hello Jishin,

according to the death certificate, your great grandfather was living in Lüneburg, just 1 hour driving distance from my home.
My grandfather was a Nazi. Not directly involved with the deportations, but he supported the whole monstrousness.
The friendly old granddad, we often visited, partially turned into a monster, as I learned about the Nazi atrocities.
Quite a lesson for a young child.

Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.


I agree with decreasing suffering. Here is a link to Holocaust info:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

Here is a couple of photos that related to our discussion that are of historical significance. One is a death certificate of my great grandfather from Dachau and the other documents are documents showing how my great grandmother and grandmother had their middle name changed to “Sara” for easier identification of authorities. Sara is a biblical name.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Jishin]

Hello Jishin,

according to the death certificate, your great grandfather was living in Lüneburg, just 1 hour driving distance from my home.
My grandfather was a Nazi. Not directly involved with the deportations, but he supported the whole monstrousness.
The friendly old granddad, we often visited, partially turned into a monster, as I learned about the Nazi atrocities.
Quite a lesson for a young child.

Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.I think anyone is capable of anything giving the right circumstances. I think people are born good but may commit bad acts.

I have worked as a prison psychiatrist and have had many patients who committed murder while they were mentally ill but were quite lovely when treated.

Your great grand dad was a good man, just victim of circumstances.

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Kevin M]

Your great grand dad was a good man, just victim of circumstances.


gassho1

Kevin
#STLAH


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

gassho2

[Jishin]

Thanks to Kotei I was able to ascertain that my great grandfather did not die in Dachau. There was someone by the same name that did die in Dachau as listed above. My great grandparents escaped to Brazil just in time and this is him. His middle name was changed to Israel for easier identification by the Nazis.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201121/1d98816024f11926c087c7d2f82b8865.jpg

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Inshin]

Thanks to Kotei I was able to ascertain that my great grandfather did not die in Dachau. There was someone by the same name that did die in Dachau as listed above. My great grandparents escaped to Brazil just in time and this is him. His middle name was changed to Israel for easier identification by the Nazis.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201121/1d98816024f11926c087c7d2f82b8865.jpg

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

Wow, what a discovery! Just to imagine that the path to it started from a heated debate about photos of dogs and flags! [mindblowing]

Gassho
Sat

[Jishin]

[emoji3]