Meeting the Shōbōgenzō

[Kokuu]

Dear sangha

I am currently reading a lovely collection of essays about Dōgen (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1473423.Dogen_Studies) from way back in 1985 edited by William LaFleur and this passage stood out for me from the piece by Thomas Kasulis 'The Incomparable Philosopher: Dōgen on How to Read the Shōbōgenzō' (p91):


The Shōbōgenzō is Dōgen's own esoteric action, that is it expresses his own self-knowledge. In this respect, it is written by himself, for himself, in intimacy with himself. At the same time the Shōbōgenzō is half a dialogue, a verbal presence to be taken up as soon as the reader is ready and willing to meet the person who wrote it. In this respect, the Shōbōgenzō is written for us, or more precisely for each of us, for me personally. It is a literary dokusan, the personal interview between master and disciple.

In this way, there is not one Shōbōgenzō but as many as there are people who read it and embody its teachings in their life, whether it is from specific sentences that speak to them or the text as a whole.

The Zen Master's Dance (https://wisdomexperience.org/product/the-zen-masters-dance/) could well be considered to be part of Jundo's own embodiment of Shōbōgenzō, a coming together of Dōgen and our teacher to present those centuries old writings for our times.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Naiko]

Oh, that’s a cool way of looking at it. Thank you!
Gassho,
Krista
st/lah

[Inshin]

Isn't it a bit like zazen : the self making itself the true self for the benefit of others? :)

Gassho
Sat

[Bion]

Dear sangha

I am currently reading a lovely collection of essays about Dōgen (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1473423.Dogen_Studies) from way back in 1985 edited by William LaFleur and this passage stood out for me from the piece by Thomas Kasulis 'The Incomparable Philosopher: Dōgen on How to Read the Shōbōgenzō' (p91):



In this way, there is not one Shōbōgenzō but as many as there are people who read it and embody its teachings in their life, whether it is from specific sentences that speak to them or the text as a whole.

The Zen Master's Dance (https://wisdomexperience.org/product/the-zen-masters-dance/) could well be considered to be part of Jundo's own embodiment of Shōbōgenzō, a coming together of Dōgen and our teacher to present those centuries old writings for our times.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

Lovely! I can only imagine the uncontrollable overflow of words he experienced once he returned from the quest of a lifetime, having found everything he was looking for and more and being ready to share with anyone willing to listen and learn. Next time I read the Shobogenzo, I’ll think of your post!

[emoji1374] SatToday

[Kokuu]

Isn't it a bit like zazen : the self making itself the true self for the benefit of others?

I think that is a good way of looking at it, Ania. Maybe Zazen is like dokusan with all things and we let go of the small self to experience the larger.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Tairin]

In this way, there is not one Shōbōgenzō but as many as there are people who read it and embody its teachings in their life, whether it is from specific sentences that speak to them or the text as a whole.


I like this perspective and I think it makes a lot of sense. Thank you Kokuu.

gassho2
Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Seikan]

Thank you for this wonderful teaching Kokuu. gassho2

Upon reading your post, I can't help but recall the following similar (yet different) passage from "Nine-Headed Dragon River" by Peter Matthiessen:


As Tetsugen says, "Almost all of Shobogenzo are teisho that Dogen gave his monks, which is why non-practicing scholars have such problems with them. To listen to a teisho is not to figure out what is being said, but simply to allow the mind and body to remain receptive and open, to listen with our entire being. If the words strike sparks and cause something to happen, that's fine, if they don't, that's all right too. The mistake is to try to analyze what's coming in. Teisho is like zazen—whatever comes from whatever direction, from the five senses or the mind, just let it come, just let it go-the mirror mind. Listening to teisho should be that way. The words flow through us. We do not cling to them, afraid we'll miss something, or try to 'understand.' We allow the words to come in through all our senses, hearing them with our eyes as well as ears, with our whole body, everything but our brain. That is the way Dogen intended them to be received, not read and analyzed in an intellectual fashion.

There are some notable differences between this and the passage that you quoted above, but they both resonate with me in a similar manner. That is, as the Shobogenzo is Dogen's own personal expression of his practice, it is therefore up to each of us to embrace that expression for ourselves and embody it as our own expression of practice (in our own unique way). I hope that makes sense... :)

Gassho,
Rob

-stlah-

(My apologies for running long...)

[Meitou]

Great perspective, thank you Kokuu
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday lah

[Heiso]

I like the idea of a literary dokusan.

I stumbled across the Existential Buddhist blog (https://www.existentialbuddhist.com/tag/dogen/page/4/)recently where Dogen's universe was described as:


a chiliocosm — a multiverse of infinite Buddhas and infinite worlds

So why not a multiverse of infinite Shobogenzos too?

Gassho,

Heiso

StLah

[Jundo]

...
In this way, there is not one Shōbōgenzō but as many as there are people who read it and embody its teachings in their life, whether it is from specific sentences that speak to them or the text as a whole.

The Zen Master's Dance could well be considered to be part of Jundo's own embodiment of Shōbōgenzō, a coming together of Dōgen and our teacher to present those centuries old writings for our times.

I held this in my heart much of today, and I so much agree. Still, I want to add a little proviso ...

I believe that Kasulis' comment stems from the post-modern belief that there is no literary meaning, no intent of the author apart from what the reader perceives. There is much truth in this. So, aspects of Dogen's writings are like music. I believe that Dogen did not always intend an intellectual meaning as much as a sound, a musical feeling to express his insights and mystical vision. What the listener hears in hearing the music is intended to convey the player's feelings, but ultimately belongs to the audience as much as the musician. In this way, like listening to Jazz music, there are "as many Shobogenzos as people who hear it."

However (here is the proviso), it would be a mistake to say that Dogen did not have a very clear, traditional, Buddhist orthodox intent in his writings too. In other words, he often had a standard and widely accepted Mahayana/Zen teaching and meaning that he was working from, and which he wished to pass on clearly to his students via his words. It was not the case of "whatever the student thinks they understand is equally truth," nor it it that there are "as many Shobogenzos as people who read them" about these teachings.

To get Dogen, it is necessary for students to have some solid idea and grasp of the classical, very basic, widely accepted in the Mahayana and Zen world, "old standard" teachings that Dogen never stepped away from in his writings, even as one listens to his sometimes wild sound.

So, no, it is not simply a matter that the student can hear whatever they wish and it is all equally true. One must understand much about very basic and widely accepted (in the Zen world) Buddhist teachings that Dogen was never, ever rejecting. For Dogen, Shobogenzo is also a bit like a chemistry science book too: He expressed the content in wild ways sometimes to convey the power he was feeling, but it is necessary to understand the basic chemistry to really get Dogen. A chemistry text is not "eye of the beholder," changing in meaning according to the reader. Thus, Dogen's writings are a bit like chemistry texts AND jazz music combined.

(Sorry to run long)

Gassho, J

STLah

[Hoseki]

I held this in my heart much of today, and I so much agree. Still, I want to add a little proviso ...

I believe that Kasulis' comment stems from the post-modern belief that there is no literary meaning, no intent of the author apart from what the reader perceives. There is much truth in this. So, aspects of Dogen's writings are like music. I believe that Dogen did not always intent an intellectual meaning as much as a sound, a musical feeling to express his insights and mystical vision. What the listener hears in hearing the music is intended to convey the player's feelings, but ultimately belongs to the audience as much as the musician. In this way, like listening to Jazz music, there are "as many Shobogenzos as people who hear it."

However (here is the proviso), it would be a mistake to say that Dogen did not have a very clear, traditional, Buddhist orthodox intent in his writings too. In other words, he often had a standard and widely accepted Mahayana/Zen teaching and meaning that he was working from, and which he wished to pass on clearly to his students via his words. It was not the case of "whatever the student thinks they understand is equally truth," nor it it that there are "as many Shobogenzos as people who read them" about these teachings.

To get Dogen, it is necessary for students to have some solid idea and grasp of the classical, very basic, widely accepted in the Mahayana and Zen world, "old standard" teachings that Dogen never stepped away from in his writings, even as one listens to his sometimes wild sound.

So, no, it is not simply a matter that the student can hear whatever they wish and it is all equally true. One must understand much about very basic and widely accepted (in the Zen world) Buddhist teachings that Dogen was never, ever rejecting. For Dogen, Shobogenzo is also a bit like a chemistry science book too: He expressed the content in wild ways sometimes to convey the power he was feeling, but it is necessary to understand the basic chemistry to really get Dogen. A chemistry text is not "eye of the beholder," changing in meaning according to the reader. Thus, Dogen's writings are a bit like chemistry texts AND jazz music combined.

(Sorry to run long)

Gassho, J

STLah

Hi Jundo,


I’m kind of nitpicking here but I think most people who would consider themselves to have a kind of post-modern view point wouldn’t so much as say there isn’t authorial intent so much as it doesn’t matter much. People are going to take away what that are going to take away from a piece of writing. This is in part because of different life experiences which often includes books.

People also bring their own views into a work. Like people who watched Wall Street and fell in love with Gordon Gecko, the villain.

Anywho that’s my understanding anyway.

Gassho
Hoseki
Sattoday

Edit: my apologies for the length.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Hi Jundo,


I’m kind of nitpicking here but I think most people who would consider themselves to have a kind of post-modern view point wouldn’t so much as say there isn’t authorial intent so much as it doesn’t matter much. People are going to take away what that are going to take away from a piece of writing. This is in part because of different life experiences which often includes books.

People also bring their own views into a work. Like people who watched Wall Street and fell in love with Gordon Gecko, the villain.

Anywho that’s my understanding anyway.



Oh, I agree. However, there are aspects of the Buddhist Mahayana and Zen teachings which are intended as universal (describing the universe as much as gravity and light), such as the teachings on Emptiness, non-self, Dukkha, the inter-identity of things and events of the Hua-yan masters, Karma and much more, and these are all present as the reliable foundation and stage upon which Master Dogen begins his wild dance.

Of course, as with gravity and light which pull and shine upon each of us separately, we are each effected and shown uniquely by the workings of the Buddhist teachings, in our own way too: You are empty and suffer Dukkha and experience Karma, as do I, yet my life is not your life, my experiences of suffering my own, same for your life.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Hoseki]

Oh, I agree. However, there are aspects of the Buddhist Mahayana and Zen teachings which are intended as universal (describing the universe as much as gravity and light), such as the teachings on Emptiness, non-self, Dukkha, the inter-identity of things and events of the Hua-yan masters, Karma and much more, and these are all present as the reliable foundation and stage upon which Master Dogen begins his wild dance.

Of course, as with gravity and light which pull and shine upon each of us separately, we are each effected and shown uniquely by the workings of the Buddhist teachings, in our own way too: You are empty and suffer Dukkha, as do I, yet my life is not your life, my experiences of suffering my own, same for your life.

Gassho, J

STLah

Gassho

Hoseki
Sattoday


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Getchi]

Jundo, thankyou for this teaching.

The idea that the things dogen did NOT reject is at least as important as what he endorsed, all I can say is it totes jibrs with the jazz spirit, jellyroll through Chet Baker all the way to modern off-beat hip hop.

Thankyou.

Geoff.
LaH
SatToday.

[Tokan]

Hey all

I read a bit of shobogenzo every week and three things strike me about reading it:

1) The most important line in a paragraph, according to the author, might appear as the least important in my assessment.
2) I accept that I am unlikely to ever fully penetrate Dogen's meaning and intent, yet I can still sit in zazen and 'know' his mind.
3) Holding it all lightly, but sacredly, enables me to accept all possibilities within those writings (i.e. go beyond right and wrong views).

And I should add that I am eternally grateful to all who have dedicated much of their lives to translating it into English. I am mindful of the difficulties they report in translating it both accurately and faithfully, and in explaining some of the devices and assumed cultural knowledge, without burdening the reader with an equally voluminous notes compendium! A modern day Englishman trying to penetrate the mysteries of a medieval Japanese zen priest's mind - now that's a zen paradox!

Gassho, satlah

Tokan

[Shōnin Risa Bear]

I have been experiencing Shobogenzo as "To say that this thing exists is a mistake, and to say that it does not exist is a mistake, yet to do it, trusting the Buddhas and ancestors, is not a mistake;" I find it accessible that way. OTOH, I found the Eihei Koroku steeper going, and my teacher said, "wait on that for now, and maybe stick to the Shobogenzo." Beginner's mind indeed. :D [smile] gassho2

gassho
shonin sat today and some lah

[Jakuden]

I have been experiencing Shobogenzo as "To say that this thing exists is a mistake, and to say that it does not exist is a mistake, yet to do it, trusting the Buddhas and ancestors, is not a mistake;" I find it accessible that way. OTOH, I found the Eihei Koroku steeper going, and my teacher said, "wait on that for now, and maybe stick to the Shobogenzo." Beginner's mind indeed. :D [smile] gassho2

gassho
shonin sat today and some lah

gassho2

[Shokai]

So, no, it is not simply a matter that the student can hear whatever they wish and it is all equally true. One must understand much about very basic and widely accepted (in the Zen world) Buddhist teachings that Dogen was never, ever rejecting.

Jundo, very good point. Thanks for this teaching and for the Book. It has certainly keep me occupied for a while. i think I'm on the third reading.

gassho, Shokai
stlah