How To Cook Your Life : from the Zen kitchen to Enlightenment.

[Meitou]

I've just started Kosho Uchiyama Roshi's commentary and as usual when reading anything related to Dogen's amazing teachings, I have to ask myself why I ever bother studying anything else, as his work seems to contain the answers to everything ever asked.
I know other people have mentioned reading this at the moment, so I've opened this thread for anyone who wants to chat about it in an informal way.
I'm trying to highlight favourite passages but as usual there's such a wealth of wisdom that it's tempting to highlight everything :D however today I picked out a couple of succinct passages regarding shikantaza.

"The basis for silent illumination is to entrust everything to the posture of zazen, letting go of all that comes up without trying to work out solutions for what we ought to do about this or that. This is what is called shikan-taza. When we do zazen with this attitude, it is no longer sitting for the purpose of fulfilling some artificial fantasy such as gaining enlightenment or improving our minds."

And

"This is the activity of shikan-taza. This practice itself is enlightenment; it is the wholehearted practice of this enlightenment which we should carry on."

Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday lah

[Risho]

ah excellent! I'm currently listening to Jundo's talks on the Tenzo Kyokun (https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12716-Master-Dogen-s-INSTRUCTIONS-FOR-THE-COOK-%28REPOST%29)- about a talk every day or every other day, then I transcribe the passage into a notebook. Once I'm done with the talks I'm going to start the reading - it's this Ango tradition I started a few years back that just stuck.

I agree with you - the Tenzo Kyokun is one of my favorites. It is so resonant to me because I'm sort of a Tenzo at work - basically a middle manager, but it's such a great prescription for following the Bodhisattva path in our workaday world.

Thank you for starting this thread!

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[gaurdianaq]

Recently just finished reading this and I loved it, this is one of the favorite things I read...

In the very first chapter Uchiyama recounts a story of a monk named Wuzhao



One day Wuzhao was working as the tenzo at a monastery in the Wutai Mountains. When the Bodhisattva Manjustri suddenly appeared above the pot where he was cooking, Wuzhao beat him. Later he said, 'Even if Shakyamuni were to appear above the pot, I would beat him, too!


And I feel like this stood out to me more than anything else in the book, maybe it's just how over the top it is and yet it feels very down to earth. I don't know much about Manjusri but as I understand he's an important person/symbol in Buddhism, and here Manjusri suddenly appears before him, and his first reaction isn't "Manjusri! To what do I owe the honor of your appearance!?" it's "What the heck are you doing!? You'll ruin the food!", and he says even if it was Shakyamuni he'd do the same. I feel it's a good analogy for Samu (not the violence, but as an example of him putting his everything into the work and ensuring it's done well)

Apologies for going over

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Meitou]

ah excellent! I'm currently listening to Jundo's talks on the Tenzo Kyokun (https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12716-Master-Dogen-s-INSTRUCTIONS-FOR-THE-COOK-%28REPOST%29)- about a talk every day or every other day, then I transcribe the passage into a notebook. Once I'm done with the talks I'm going to start the reading - it's this Ango tradition I started a few years back that just stuck.

I agree with you - the Tenzo Kyokun is one of my favorites. It is so resonant to me because I'm sort of a Tenzo at work - basically a middle manager, but it's such a great prescription for following the Bodhisattva path in our workaday world.

Thank you for starting this thread!

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

Thanks for the info on those talks Rish, I don't think I knew about them, I'll start listening. By the by, when you transcribe, do you just listen and write or do you use a transcribing programme?
Gassho
Meitou
sattoday lah

[Risho]

oh - I just copy the passage of text from that day's talk into my notebook. For example, from the first talk (http://www.treeleaf.org/sit-a-long/with-jundo-and-taigu/archives/2009/09/the-zen-way-of-cooking.html), I would copy this into my notebook:


Buddhist monasteries have, in principle, six stewards. All are disciples of Buddha and all carry out the work of Buddha. Among them is the officer known as the cook, who is in charge of preparing meals for the assembly of monks. The Rules of Purity for Chan Monasteries (Chanyuan qinggui) says, "In order to offer nourishment to the monks of the community, there is a cook." From ancient times, the position has been assigned to senior monks who have the way-seeking mind -- eminent persons who have aroused the thought of awakening.

In general, the job of cook is an all-consuming pursuit of the way. If one lacks the way-seeking mind, it will be nothing but a vain struggle and hardship, without benefit in the end. The Rules of Purity for Chan Monasteries says, "One should maintain a way-seeking mind, make adjustments in accord with the occasion, and see to it that the great assemby receives what is necessary and is at ease." In days of yore, [emminent] monks such as Guishan and Dongshan performed this job, and various other great ancestral teachers did too at some point in their careers. Thus, it is surely not the same as the work of worldy cooks, imperial cooks, and the like.

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Meitou]

Oh that's great, I'll take a listen - that passage relates to what I have been reading today too.
Gassho
Meitou
sattoday lah

[Margherita]

Thank you Risho, I didn't know about this.
I love the idea of reading again Uchiyama's book, so I am up for an informal chat, Meitou :), I will start the reading tomorrow.

Gassho,
Mags,
ST

[Risho]

I love a good internet mystery; I was able to track the Griffith Foulk Tenzo Kyokun translation (which Jundo references in his talks) here: https://www.redcedarzen.org/resources/Documents/study/Tenzo%20Kyokun%20(Foulk).pdf

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[shikantazen]

Being content with what is, yet making diligent effort towards gaining nothing. I am thinking these days on how to develop this contented mind that can fully accept all situations. Any suggestions would be appreciated

Gassho,
Sam
ST

[Kokuu]

Being content with what is, yet making diligent effort towards gaining nothing. I am thinking these days on how to develop this contented mind that can fully accept all situations. Any suggestions would be appreciated

I have heard Zazen can be good!

Sorry, Sam, I know you hate that kind of answer but it is true.

Observe this present moment, right here, right now. What is lacking? What is missing?

In Zazen, we spend time each day putting down all thoughts of striving and just sitting with what is, and take the same attitude into life. By paying attention to what is here rather than ideas of what could or should be, there is much less discontent. Of course, since we are human, those thoughts still arise of wanting something more or different but in time we recognise them for what they are.

On a different tack, physical activity such as gardening and chopping wood can tend to bring us back into the body and bring contentment by just weeding and chopping without needing those activities to be anything more than they are.

Apologies for too many words.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Bion]

Being content with what is, yet making diligent effort towards gaining nothing. I am thinking these days on how to develop this contented mind that can fully accept all situations. Any suggestions would be appreciated

Gassho,
Sam
ST

One word: ZAZEN .. Not because it’ll help you gain anything in the future, but because it is an active practice of just what you want. Once sitting with a timer set, there’s nothing to wish for, you know exactly how long you’ll be simply sitting, there’s nothing good or bad, just things to experience; maybe some pain, numbness, ringing in the ears, neighbors, cars outside, an itch.. Sit through all of it knowing your only purpose for the set time is to be there in that position.

[emoji1374] SatToday

[Risho]

I am thinking these days on how to develop this contented mind that can fully accept all situations. Any suggestions would be appreciated

Gassho,
Sam
ST

No it's zazen :D

Also Ango - the practice of renunciation is just this - when you give up something you like, when that Ango honeymoon wears off, that's where you really practice just being content if you don't get what you want.

[shikantazen]

Thanks all, Sorry my question wasn't clear. I was asking how do we develop that contented (no gaining) mind for zazen. How do we deal with enlightenment expectations, wanting to improve situations or oneself and learn to love and accept everything as is

I ask this as I'm reading this book and it says "upright sitting" and "no gaining mind" are two most vital pieces of zazen:
https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Fujita-Issho-Polishing-a-Tile.pdf

Apologies for going over 3 sentences

Gassho,
Sam
ST

[gaurdianaq]

Being content with what is, yet making diligent effort towards gaining nothing. I am thinking these days on how to develop this contented mind that can fully accept all situations. Any suggestions would be appreciated

Gassho,
Sam
ST

I find for me, work can help cultivate this mindset. I've noticed when I have a decent days work I feel much more content in the evening, even if the work day had it's stressful moments (this never used to be the case, but I feel like Zazen has helped in that regards)

That being said, I do struggle with having this contented mind on the weekends (even if I sit Zazen) and I'm still trying to find that...

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah

[gaurdianaq]

Thanks all, Sorry my question wasn't clear. I was asking how do we develop that contented (no gaining) mind for zazen. How do we deal with enlightenment expectations, wanting to improve situations or oneself and learn to love and accept everything as is

I ask this as I'm reading this book and it says "upright sitting" and "no gaining mind" are two most vital pieces of zazen:
https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Fujita-Issho-Polishing-a-Tile.pdf

Apologies for going over 3 sentences

Gassho,
Sam
ST

In regards to the first part, I would ask myself "What do I gain from enlightenment?" I feel like the moment I consider the idea of attaining some enlightened/higher state of mind that I can reach one day if I try hard enough, that I'd be living in a fantasy world. When do I become enlightened vs not enlightened, where do I draw the line? To use a more down to earth example, say I'm training to be a chef, when do I go from not chef to chef? Is it when I graduate from culinary school? When I serve my first meal?

I think we can want to improve situations/oneself while also not trying to get anywhere. I like the example Jundo uses, you can live in a house with a leaky roof, and fully accept the house for what it is. "This is my home!" you say about the house, and then you still go and fix the leak in the roof because it needs to be done.

I can't comment on the part about upright sitting specifically being vital, but the impression I got from Jundo was that the more important part is the "no gaining mind" as you put it, and that the focus on specific forms of sitting came about as a product of their times, back when there was less understanding of how the body worked and so their were some misinformed beliefs about the effect of breath and posture on "energies" in the body, which now we know otherwise thanks to modern science.

Apologies for going over 3 sentences.

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Jundo]

Thanks all, Sorry my question wasn't clear. I was asking how do we develop that contented (no gaining) mind for zazen. How do we deal with enlightenment expectations, wanting to improve situations or oneself and learn to love and accept everything as is

I ask this as I'm reading this book and it says "upright sitting" and "no gaining mind" are two most vital pieces of zazen:
https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Fujita-Issho-Polishing-a-Tile.pdf

Apologies for going over 3 sentences

Gassho,
Sam
ST

Know that "no gaining mind" is vital to sitting Zazen, and Issho Fujita is a wonderful teacher, but he is also one of the "posture obsessives" that my recent talk was addressed to regarding his attitude toward proper posture and "upright sitting," as here in that book :


Slowly rolling the pelvis forward and backward on the curved surface of the sit bones, we carefully look for point 2 in figure 4, the point where our body weight is supported most properly. ... The practice of sitting upright with a proper posture is a dynamic self-regulatory process powered by the continuous interaction between consciousness (thinking to move the pelvis so that the body weight falls vertically onto point 2) and sensations (sensing the result of this movement in body, breath and mind). So, during zazen the body continually fluctuates in very subtle ways, although they are too subtle to notice. While sitting zazen, we continue minutely adjusting the pelvis so that our body weight falls vertically onto point 2 at the bottom of our sitting posture, and we keep a delicate balance while feeling the verticality of the body’s central axis in deep relaxation. This balance is so delicate and fragile that it is easily lost by drowsiness and discursive thinking. When we notice that the balance is lost we just slowly recover it, unhurriedly guided by kinesthetic sensations. Keeping ourselves open to the world, we patiently recover the balance every time it is lost. The
practice of sitting upright with proper posture is just such a sober and sensible work, to be done serenely with sharp awareness.

Baloney because it is too much, too obsessed about posture (and the book, by the way, also contains strange claims about a kind of pseudo-scientific something called "rythms emitted from the cranial sacrum system https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/alas-poor-craniosacral/)

As to sitting with "no gaining mind," see if my next talk on "Zen as Embodiment (2) - Buddha Sitting Buddha" helps (it will be posted in the next day or two), as it is about Zazen as a kind of visualization exercise, a kind of acting a role, in which we feel in the bones that we are embodying the peace, fulfilment and equanimity of a Buddha sitting under the Bodhi tree ... thus actually coming to feel the "no gaining mind, nothing more to attain" peace, fulfilment and equanimity that we are pretending to feel. See if that helps.

Gassho, J

STLah

[StoBird]

I've just started Kosho Uchiyama Roshi's commentary and as usual when reading anything related to Dogen's amazing teachings, I have to ask myself why I ever bother studying anything else, as his work seems to contain the answers to everything ever asked.
I know other people have mentioned reading this at the moment, so I've opened this thread for anyone who wants to chat about it in an informal way.
I'm trying to highlight favourite passages but as usual there's such a wealth of wisdom that it's tempting to highlight everything :D however today I picked out a couple of succinct passages regarding shikantaza.

"The basis for silent illumination is to entrust everything to the posture of zazen, letting go of all that comes up without trying to work out solutions for what we ought to do about this or that. This is what is called shikan-taza. When we do zazen with this attitude, it is no longer sitting for the purpose of fulfilling some artificial fantasy such as gaining enlightenment or improving our minds."

And

"This is the activity of shikan-taza. This practice itself is enlightenment; it is the wholehearted practice of this enlightenment which we should carry on."

Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday lah

gassho1

Gassho,
Sat
Lah

[StoBird]

Know that "no gaining mind" is vital to sitting Zazen, and Issho Fujita is a wonderful teacher, but he is also one of the "posture obsessives" that my recent talk was addressed to regarding his attitude toward proper posture and "upright sitting," as here in that book :



Baloney because it is too much, too obsessed about posture (and the book, by the way, also contains strange claims about a kind of pseudo-scientific something called "rythms emitted from the cranial sacrum system https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/alas-poor-craniosacral/)

As to sitting with "no gaining mind," see if my next talk on "Zen as Embodiment (2) - Buddha Sitting Buddha" helps (it will be posted in the next day or two), as it is about Zazen as a kind of visualization exercise, a kind of acting a role, in which we feel in the bones that we are embodying the peace, fulfilment and equanimity of a Buddha sitting under the Bodhi tree ... thus actually coming to feel the "no gaining mind, nothing more to attain" peace, fulfilment and equanimity that we are pretending to feel. See if that helps.

Gassho, J

STLah

Yes fight that pseudoscience! I love it! [claps]gassho1

Gassho
Tom
Sat
Lah

[Meitou]

Thanks all, Sorry my question wasn't clear. I was asking how do we develop that contented (no gaining) mind for zazen. How do we deal with enlightenment expectations, wanting to improve situations or oneself and learn to love and accept everything as is

I ask this as I'm reading this book and it says "upright sitting" and "no gaining mind" are two most vital pieces of zazen:
https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Fujita-Issho-Polishing-a-Tile.pdf

Apologies for going over 3 sentences

Gassho,
Sam
ST

Perhaps you'd get more answers by putting that book aside and picking up the Dogen instead, reading it and rereading it until you feel his words seeping into the marrow of your bones.
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday lah

[Bion]

Thanks all, Sorry my question wasn't clear. I was asking how do we develop that contented (no gaining) mind for zazen. How do we deal with enlightenment expectations, wanting to improve situations or oneself and learn to love and accept everything as is

I ask this as I'm reading this book and it says "upright sitting" and "no gaining mind" are two most vital pieces of zazen:
https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Fujita-Issho-Polishing-a-Tile.pdf

Apologies for going over 3 sentences

Gassho,
Sam
ST

The answer remains the same Sam. While upright sitting and no gaining mind are essential to zazen, they are developed through the practice of zazen, not outside of it. Sitting long enough will teach us how to straighten the back, position the knees, relax the jaw and tongue and will also teach us that sitting is just sitting when one doesn’t expect to gain something from it. The second someone sits zazen with a mind focused on “achieving” they will find nothing but frustration and disappointment. It’s sort of like a lawyer becomes a better lawyer and learns the tricks of the trade while exercising as a lawyer in court, not outside of it. Or how a surgeon can only become a brilliant surgeon by spending time in the OR not outside of it.

[emoji1374] SatToday ( sorry again for exceeding the 3 sentences)

[Inshin]

Know that "no gaining mind" is vital to sitting Zazen, and Issho Fujita is a wonderful teacher, but he is also one of the "posture obsessives" that my recent talk was addressed to regarding his attitude toward proper posture and "upright sitting," as here in that book :



Baloney because it is too much, too obsessed about posture (and the book, by the way, also contains strange claims about a kind of pseudo-scientific something called "rythms emitted from the cranial sacrum system https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/alas-poor-craniosacral/)

As to sitting with "no gaining mind," see if my next talk on "Zen as Embodiment (2) - Buddha Sitting Buddha" helps (it will be posted in the next day or two), as it is about Zazen as a kind of visualization exercise, a kind of acting a role, in which we feel in the bones that we are embodying the peace, fulfilment and equanimity of a Buddha sitting under the Bodhi tree ... thus actually coming to feel the "no gaining mind, nothing more to attain" peace, fulfilment and equanimity that we are pretending to feel. See if that helps.

Gassho, J

STLah

I've noticed something in my sittings : if I trust the Shikantaza and approach it with no gaining mind the zazen posture happens by itself.
At the beginning I would assume what feels like the right posture and then just sit, after a while there are energy currents running through my body, the spine elongates itself, the quality of zazen changes slightly giving a way to "active stillness".
It's not any special state, and I wouldn't be able to create it intentionally, it just happens - but if I was to pay to much attention to the guidelines on how to achieve zazen posture it would be just thinking about zazen and not Zazen.

Gassho
Sat

[Eva]

Thanks all, Sorry my question wasn't clear. I was asking how do we develop that contented (no gaining) mind for zazen. How do we deal with enlightenment expectations, wanting to improve situations or oneself and learn to love and accept everything as is

I ask this as I'm reading this book and it says "upright sitting" and "no gaining mind" are two most vital pieces of zazen:
https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Fujita-Issho-Polishing-a-Tile.pdf

Apologies for going over 3 sentences

Gassho,
Sam
ST

Enlightenment and no-enlightenment - both; do not exist .

Sit with no mind that has to do "that" or not do "that", posture of no body put either "this" way or "that" way . let the moment happen to you , open and free , leave everything untouched .


Gassho,
eva
sattoday

[Jinyo]

The answer remains the same Sam. While upright sitting and no gaining mind are essential to zazen, they are developed through the practice of zazen, not outside of it. Sitting long enough will teach us how to straighten the back, position the knees, relax the jaw and tongue and will also teach us that sitting is just sitting when one doesn’t expect to gain something from it. The second someone sits zazen with a mind focused on “achieving” they will find nothing but frustration and disappointment. It’s sort of like a lawyer becomes a better lawyer and learns the tricks of the trade while exercising as a lawyer in court, not outside of it. Or how a surgeon can only become a brilliant surgeon by spending time in the OR not outside of it.

[emoji1374] SatToday ( sorry again for exceeding the 3 sentences)

Apologies if I misunderstand you Jake but I don't think I totally agree with what you say.

A great deal can be cultivated/learnt 'off the cushion' - though of course it is understood that Zazen encompasses all of our actions. Personally, I feel without a lot of work on our personal development Zazen will not deliver that contented/non seeking mind we are all searching for. I don't think we're being authentic if we tell ourselves this is not a motivation. A motivation implies a goal and even if we drop all thoughts of a goal while sitting that goal does exist.

Accepting things as they are takes preparatory work and that comes in many forms. I experience a group of people here who are very dedicated
to reading/thinking/questioning/doubting/learning/unlearning etc. Taking that example you gave - the lawyer/the doctor would be useless in court/the OR without years of preparatory work.

So I reckon - work hard off the cushion and relax when on it. Not two but one.

( sorry - ran on a bit)

Gassho

Jinyo

Sat today

[Meitou]

I love a good internet mystery; I was able to track the Griffith Foulk Tenzo Kyokun translation (which Jundo references in his talks) here: https://www.redcedarzen.org/resources/Documents/study/Tenzo%20Kyokun%20(Foulk).pdf

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

Brilliant work Sherlock! This morning I've also added Bernie Glassman's book as a companion to this reading
https://www.amazon.it/gp/product/B003FCVFYK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_d_asin_title_o00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Gassho
Meitou
sattoday lah

[Tairin]

Apologies if I misunderstand you Jake but I don't think I totally agree with what you say.

A great deal can be cultivated/learnt 'off the cushion'



Agreed and considering this thread is about Tenzo Kyokun it seems this shouldn’t need to be said. The writing in this book is all about bringing the same intention and mindset to life in the kitchen (off the cushion) and we do when we sit Zazen.



So I reckon - work hard off the cushion and relax when on it. Not two but one.



I think bring the same level of effort both on and off the cushion.

(One extra sentence). This is one of my personal favourites too.

gassho2
Tairin
Sat today and lah

[gaurdianaq]

Apologies if I misunderstand you Jake but I don't think I totally agree with what you say.

A great deal can be cultivated/learnt 'off the cushion' - though of course it is understood that Zazen encompasses all of our actions. Personally, I feel without a lot of work on our personal development Zazen will not deliver that contented/non seeking mind we are all searching for. I don't think we're being authentic if we tell ourselves this is not a motivation. A motivation implies a goal and even if we drop all thoughts of a goal while sitting that goal does exist.

Accepting things as they are takes preparatory work and that comes in many forms. I experience a group of people here who are very dedicated
to reading/thinking/questioning/doubting/learning/unlearning etc. Taking that example you gave - the lawyer/the doctor would be useless in court/the OR without years of preparatory work.

So I reckon - work hard off the cushion and relax when on it. Not two but one.

( sorry - ran on a bit)

Gassho

Jinyo

Sat today

Well said, I concur!

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today

[Kokuu]

Brilliant work Sherlock! This morning I've also added Bernie Glassman's book as a companion to this reading

I enjoyed Bernie Glassman's take on the sutra which is very practical in terms of describing what his Zen Peacemaker's Order have undertaken in terms of engaged Buddhism and working with marginalised communities.

However, How to Cook Your Life remains an absolute classic. There is a good reason that so many of us keep going back to it.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Risho]

Apologies if I misunderstand you Jake but I don't think I totally agree with what you say.

A great deal can be cultivated/learnt 'off the cushion' - though of course it is understood that Zazen encompasses all of our actions. Personally, I feel without a lot of work on our personal development Zazen will not deliver that contented/non seeking mind we are all searching for. I don't think we're being authentic if we tell ourselves this is not a motivation. A motivation implies a goal and even if we drop all thoughts of a goal while sitting that goal does exist.

Accepting things as they are takes preparatory work and that comes in many forms. I experience a group of people here who are very dedicated
to reading/thinking/questioning/doubting/learning/unlearning etc. Taking that example you gave - the lawyer/the doctor would be useless in court/the OR without years of preparatory work.

So I reckon - work hard off the cushion and relax when on it. Not two but one.

( sorry - ran on a bit)

Gassho

Jinyo

Sat today

Darned right! This is absolutely right on; we do have to work on ourselves, and it can be hard! https://youtu.be/SF3x3aEtjLo

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Seikan]

...let the moment happen to you , open and free , leave everything untouched .


Eva,

This is beautiful. I'm going to write this down to reflect on later. :)

Gassho,
Rob

-stlah-


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[Kokuu]

Sit with no mind that has to do "that" or not do "that", posture of no body put either "this" way or "that" way . let the moment happen to you , open and free , leave everything untouched .

gassho2

This very much echoes what Dōgen says in Genjokoan:


Driving ourselves to practice and experience millions of things and phenomena is delusion. When millions of things and phenomena actively practice and experience ourselves, that is realization.

(Nishijima/Cross translation)


In other words, don't try to force life to be as you wish, but let it act through you.

Sam, I think it is a question of trust. In both Zazen and life off the cushion, we trust that life is complete and whole just as it is and that the right action will arise by itself (https://terebess.hu/english/tao/mitchell.html#Kap15). That doesn't mean we are completely passive and do not attend to things that need to attend to - getting the groceries, paying the bills, looking after our kids - but when we let go of needing to be in charge, in control, we let life unfold moment by moment rather than needing to force every step.

Apologies for (over) length.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Bion]

Apologies if I misunderstand you Jake but I don't think I totally agree with what you say.

A great deal can be cultivated/learnt 'off the cushion' - though of course it is understood that Zazen encompasses all of our actions. Personally, I feel without a lot of work on our personal development Zazen will not deliver that contented/non seeking mind we are all searching for. I don't think we're being authentic if we tell ourselves this is not a motivation. A motivation implies a goal and even if we drop all thoughts of a goal while sitting that goal does exist.

Accepting things as they are takes preparatory work and that comes in many forms. I experience a group of people here who are very dedicated
to reading/thinking/questioning/doubting/learning/unlearning etc. Taking that example you gave - the lawyer/the doctor would be useless in court/the OR without years of preparatory work.

So I reckon - work hard off the cushion and relax when on it. Not two but one.

( sorry - ran on a bit)

Gassho

Jinyo

Sat today

Of course every action can teach us things and one learns a great deal while cooking, cleaning, doing anything really.. but hat was not really the point of what I was saying. The observation I made was merely based on my own experience and not any teaching from anyone. That was the order in which things happened for me: first I sat and then that spilled over the rest of my activities as I was able to learn valuable lessons from my zazen which then I was able to apply to other aspects of my day to day life. I am sure others may learn in a different way because all of our circumstances and needs are different.

Sorry for running a bit long

[emoji1374] SatToday

[Meitou]

I enjoyed Bernie Glassman's take on the sutra which is very practical in terms of describing what his Zen Peacemaker's Order have undertaken in terms of engaged Buddhism and working with marginalised communities.

However, How to Cook Your Life remains an absolute classic. There is a good reason that so many of us keep going back to it.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

Yes it's a gift, really nothing else is needed and this is what I'm trying to convey - it contains answers to so many of the questions that arise in the forum, so I hope more folk get interested in reading it.
I agree about the Bernie Glassman, it's a different and very personal interpretation, a good companion all the same.
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday lah

[Seikan]

Sam, I think it is a question of trust. In both Zazen and life off the cushion, we trust that life is complete and whole just as it is and that the right action will arise by itself (https://terebess.hu/english/tao/mitchell.html#Kap15). That doesn't mean we are completely passive and do not attend to things that need to attend to - getting the groceries, paying the bills, looking after our kids - but when we let go of needing to be in charge, in control, we let life unfold moment by moment rather than needing to force every step.
-

To echo Kokuu's reply above, I see this as an another manifestation of taking refuge as we have to simply put our trust in the teachings before we can fully commit to the practice. If we enter practice with too much reservation, it makes it difficult to "progress" (using that term lightly here... :) ).

And bringing this back to Meitou's message about How to Cook Your Life, this in my one and only complaint about Treeleaf—you folks are causing me to need a bigger bookshelf! [emoji2957]

Gassho,
Rob

-stlah-


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[Risho]

To echo Kokuu's reply above, I see this as an another manifestation of taking refuge as we have to simply put our trust in the teachings before we can fully commit to the practice. If we enter practice with too much reservation, it makes it difficult to "progress" (using that term lightly here... :) ).



Interesting - this reminds of the same idea from Genjokoan; this from Shohaku Okumura's translation of it:


...[I]f there are fish that would swim or birds that would fly only after investigating the entire ocean or sky, they would find neither path nor place. When we make this very place our own, our practice becomes the actualization of reality. When we make this path our own, our activity naturally becomes actualized reality… Although complete enlightenment is immediately actualized, its intimacy is such that it does not necessarily form as a view. [In fact] viewing is not something fixed.

Gassho,

Risho
-stlah

[Kokuu]

I see this as an another manifestation of taking refuge as we have to simply put our trust in the teachings before we can fully commit to the practice. If we enter practice with too much reservation, it makes it difficult

I think this is true and hopefully as we practice, trust is supported by experience.

This piece by Jundo Roshi is very lovely on faith and trust as an often missing component of Shikantaza: https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15111-WHAT-s-OFTEN-MISSING-in-SHIKANTAZA-EXPLANATIONS


What is this missing piece of the puzzle?

Shikantaza Zazen must be sat, for the time it is sat, with the student profoundly trusting deep in her bones that sitting itself is a complete and sacred act, the one and only action that need be done in the whole universe in that instant of sitting. This truth should not be thought about or voiced in so many words, but must be silently and subtly felt deep down. The student must taste vibrantly that the mere act of sitting Zazen, in that moment, is whole and thoroughly complete, the total fruition of life’s goals, with nothing lacking and nothing to be added to the bare fact of sitting here and now. There must be a sense that the single performance of crossing the legs (or sitting in some other balanced posture) is the realization of all that was ever sought, that there is simply no other place to go in the world nor thing left to do besides sitting in such posture. No matter how busy one’s life or how strongly one’s heart may tempt one to be elsewhere, for the time of sitting all other concerns are put aside. Zazen is the one task and experience that brings meaning and fruition to that time, with nothing else to do. This fulfillment in “Just Sitting” must be felt with a tangible vibrancy and energy, trusting that one is sitting at the very pinnacle of life.


Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[gaurdianaq]

And bringing this back to Meitou's message about How to Cook Your Life, this in my one and only complaint about Treeleaf—you folks are causing me to need a bigger bookshelf! [emoji2957]

Gassho,
Rob

-stlah-


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

This is why I get digital books XD

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Naiko]

ah excellent! I'm currently listening to Jundo's talks on the Tenzo Kyokun (https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12716-Master-Dogen-s-INSTRUCTIONS-FOR-THE-COOK-%28REPOST%29)- about a talk every day or every other day, then I transcribe the passage into a notebook. Once I'm done with the talks I'm going to start the reading - it's this Ango tradition I started a few years back that just stuck.

I agree with you - the Tenzo Kyokun is one of my favorites. It is so resonant to me because I'm sort of a Tenzo at work - basically a middle manager, but it's such a great prescription for following the Bodhisattva path in our workaday world.

Thank you for starting this thread!

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

Oh, wonderful—thank you for posting about these talks. I had planned to read this for Ango, so these will be very helpful.
Gassho,
Krista
st

[Jundo]

As to sitting with "no gaining mind," see if my next talk on "Zen as Embodiment (2) - Buddha Sitting Buddha" helps (it will be posted in the next day or two), as it is about Zazen as a kind of visualization exercise, a kind of acting a role, in which we feel in the bones that we are embodying the peace, fulfilment and equanimity of a Buddha sitting under the Bodhi tree ... thus actually coming to feel the "no gaining mind, nothing more to attain" peace, fulfilment and equanimity that we are pretending to feel. See if that helps.

Gassho, J

STLah

Sam, as promised, see if this is helpful in some way ...

Zen as Embodiment (2) - Buddha 'Sitting' Buddha
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?18182-Zen-as-Embodiment-%282%29-Buddha-Sitting-Buddha

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jinyo]

ah excellent! I'm currently listening to Jundo's talks on the Tenzo Kyokun (https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12716-Master-Dogen-s-INSTRUCTIONS-FOR-THE-COOK-%28REPOST%29)- about a talk every day or every other day, then I transcribe the passage into a notebook. Once I'm done with the talks I'm going to start the reading - it's this Ango tradition I started a few years back that just stuck.

I agree with you - the Tenzo Kyokun is one of my favorites. It is so resonant to me because I'm sort of a Tenzo at work - basically a middle manager, but it's such a great prescription for following the Bodhisattva path in our workaday world.

Thank you for starting this thread!

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

Thanks for starting this thread Meitou and thanks for the links Risho. Jundo's talks were recorded pre my joining Treeleaf so I did not realise they existed. The link to the Foulk translation
is very helpful too. Have read twice today so just digesting and going to listen to talks.

Gasho

Jinyo

Sat today

[Risho]

If you haven't you've got to listen to talk xi (http://www.treeleaf.org/sit-a-long/with-jundo-and-taigu/archives/2009/10/going-back-a-bit-by-special-request-from-fugen.html) - not only a good talk on form and emptiness, but it makes me laugh every time! hahahahaha

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Inshin]

"When we live out our lives to the fullest, there is no bad, fortune or misfortune. There is only the one taste of the great ocean of life."
gassho2

Gassho
Sat

[Risho]

"When we live out our lives to the fullest, there is no bad, fortune or misfortune. There is only the one taste of the great ocean of life."
gassho2

Gassho
Sat

gassho2 This is Dogen at his best; he has a lot of really good stuff, but this fascicle is incredible

gassho

risho
-stlah

[Risho]

Today I listened to Talk XV (http://www.treeleaf.org/sit-a-long/with-jundo-and-taigu/archives/2009/10/one-eye-two-eyes-a-six-foot-body-of-a-buddha.html)- the two truths; I think this is referred to as the "two truths", right?


Harmonizing and purifying yourself in this manner, do not lose either the one eye [of transcendent wisdom] or the two eyes [of discriminating consciousness]. Lifting a single piece of vegetable, make [yourself into] a six-foot body [i.e. a buddha] and ask that six-foot body to prepare a single piece of vegetable.

Another related teaching from Jundo: https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?17962-Two-eyes-open-together

I mean aren't they all related? This is the heart sutra.

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Inshin]

“There is no way to
gain emancipation through another.” (Suttanipāta: 773) “There
is no way I can emancipate people suffering in this world. " p. 102.

Could anyone help me with understanding of how this quote relates to Bodhisattva Path?
I found variations of Bodhisattva vows, most saying :" However innumerable all beings are, I vow to save them all/ liberate them all."



However one variation struck me:

"Sentient beings are infinite, they will save themselves.
Desires are infinite, they will reach an end by themselves.
Dharmas are infinite, so there is learning, study.
Buddha's way is not above, so it is always accomplished."

https://terebess.hu/zen/szoto/vows.html

Gassho
Sat

[Jundo]

However one variation struck me:

"Sentient beings are infinite, they will save themselves.
Desires are infinite, they will reach an end by themselves.
Dharmas are infinite, so there is learning, study.
Buddha's way is not above, so it is always accomplished."

https://terebess.hu/zen/szoto/vows.html


This appears to be an interpretation by Rev. Kobun Chino, a Soto teacher who was known for some very eccentric writings (I once suspected, since he came to America via San Francisco in the 70's, that he was stoned when he wrote a lot of them, but I understand that he did not touch drugs and was just eccentric), and left some rather eccentric students. Let me just say that it is a very eccentric and unorthodox reading, but it is interesting. Maybe we can say that, since we are they and they are us, then when we save the beings who (ultimately do not need to be saved) they save themselves as we save them from the saveless. :p


“There is no way to
gain emancipation through another.” (Suttanipāta: 773) “There
is no way I can emancipate people suffering in this world. " p. 102.

Could anyone help me with understanding of how this quote relates to Bodhisattva Path?
I found variations of Bodhisattva vows, most saying :" However innumerable all beings are, I vow to save them all/ liberate them all."



The Sutta Nipata was a Theravadan interpretation, so I would guess that the traditional interpretation there is that we must all make our own effort, save ourself, because we are each responsible for our own Karma and liberation. The Mahayana view, as expressed by Uchiyama, would not disagree, although the Mahayanist might add such further insights that there is no "through another" or "people suffering in the world" because there is no "another" or "people" ... nor "emancipation" to be attained, nor "suffering" nor "world" ... and the realization thereof is emancipation. As well, the "another" and "people" are just us too ... so we must save ourselves in saving them.

Something like so.

Sorry for running long.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Bion]

“There is no way to
gain emancipation through another.” (Suttanipāta: 773) “There
is no way I can emancipate people suffering in this world. " p. 102.

Could anyone help me with understanding of how this quote relates to Bodhisattva Path?
I found variations of Bodhisattva vows, most saying :" However innumerable all beings are, I vow to save them all/ liberate them all."



However one variation struck me:

"Sentient beings are infinite, they will save themselves.
Desires are infinite, they will reach an end by themselves.
Dharmas are infinite, so there is learning, study.
Buddha's way is not above, so it is always accomplished."

https://terebess.hu/zen/szoto/vows.html

Gassho
Sat

If I may, even ancient zen masters said the same with different words. It is as much a truth as it is a half-truth. Of course no one can possibly be enlightened because of someone else’s realizations. It is a personal experience. You can teach me, guide me, assist me in my practice, talk to me in detail about your realizations but you can never transfer them to me. They will become my own when they come from myself. So in that sense, our work is to strive for the salvation of all beings - we assist and help, we guide and work alongside each and every one until on their own they manage to realize the Buddha way.

Sorry for running long

[emoji1374] SatToday

[gaurdianaq]

“There is no way to
gain emancipation through another.” (Suttanipāta: 773) “There
is no way I can emancipate people suffering in this world. " p. 102.

Could anyone help me with understanding of how this quote relates to Bodhisattva Path?
I found variations of Bodhisattva vows, most saying :" However innumerable all beings are, I vow to save them all/ liberate them all."

Gassho
Sat

I always interpreted this as "I can show you where the door is, but you have to open it and walk through."

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today

[Kokuu]

“There is no way to gain emancipation through another.” (Suttanipāta: 773)
“There is no way I can emancipate people suffering in this world. "

Hi Ania

I just finished reading the Sutta Nipāta and found that, like many Theravadin texts, the overall emphasis is on moral conduct and self-responsibility. So I agree with Jundo that the verse is reminding people of their own responsibility for their actions and kamma/karma.

There is a definite shift of focus in the Mahāyāna approach to practicing for the sake of all beings, recognising that we are not separate and our practice expresses the totality of existence throughout space and time. As Dōgen says in Bendōwa:


If a human being, even for a single moment, manifests the Buddha's posture in the three forms of conduct, while that person sits-up straight in samādhi, the entire world of Dharma assumes the Buddha's posture and the whole of space becomes the state of realization.


However, The Diamond Sutra points out there are ultimately no sentient beings to save and no one to emancipate.


Subhūti, what do you think? You should not claim that the Tathāgata thinks 'I will save sentient beings.' Subhūti, do not think such a thing. Why? There are in fact no sentient beings for the Tathāgata to save. If there were sentient beings for the Tathāgata to save, it would mean that the Tathāgata holds the notions of self, person, sentient being, and life span.


So, what does this mean in practice? Well, firstly we practice for ourselves, keeping our conduct and karma pure in line with Theravadin principles. But as Mahāyāna Buddhists we do not stop there and recognise our place in the interpenetrating web of dependent-arising. Practice does not stop where our body ends and, even while it is true that there are no inherently existing sentient beings in the world, each person in the world, and each creature, is like each of the ingredients that the tenzo uses to make the food for the Zen community. We treat each with reverence based on the fact they exist and are expressions of the totality of existence, just as we are.

Apologies for going over length.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Risho]

Practice does not stop where our body ends and, even while it is true that there are no inherently existing sentient beings in the world, each person in the world, and each creature, is like each of the ingredients that the tenzo uses to make the food for the Zen community. We treat each with reverence based on the fact they exist and are expressions of the totality of existence, just as we are.

ooo very well said! keeping the one eye transcendent wisdom and the two eyes on discrimination :) gassho2

Your excessive posting length has been reported to management :D

gassho

Risho [batman]
-stlah

[Inshin]

gassho2

Gassho Sat

[Jundo]

Lovely, Kokuu. gassho2

Kokuu said what I wanted to say, but clearer.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

By the way, I used "eccentric" for the late Kobun Chino. I think that was too strong. Maybe "creative" or "inventive" would be better adjectives. He famously translated the Gatha of the Heart Sutra, which is more often rendered as something like this:

Gate! Gate! (Gone, Gone)
Paragate! (Gone Beyond)
Parasamgate! (Gone Fully Beyond)
Bodhi! Svaha! * (Awakening, Rejoice)

as ...

Falling apart, falling apart.
Everything is falling apart.
Everything is always falling apart.
Nothing to do.

gassho1

Here is a wonderful essay about him by David Chadwick, who is Suzuki Roshi's biographer ...

http://www.cuke.com/dchad-writ/kobun-great-friend.htm

Gassho, J

STLah

[Inshin]

By the way, I used "eccentric" for the late Kobun Chino. I think that was too strong. Maybe "creative" or "inventive" would be better adjectives. He famously translated the Gatha of the Heart Sutra, which is more often rendered as something like this:

Gate! Gate! (Gone, Gone)
Paragate! (Gone Beyond)
Parasamgate! (Gone Fully Beyond)
Bodhi! Svaha! * (Awakening, Rejoice)

as ...

Falling apart, falling apart.
Everything is falling apart.
Everything is always falling apart.
Nothing to do.

gassho1

Here is a wonderful essay about him by David Chadwick, who is Suzuki Roshi's biographer ...

http://www.cuke.com/dchad-writ/kobun-great-friend.htm

Gassho, J

STLah

I wondered. From the very little of his writings I read, he reminded me a bit of you:)

"Sitting on your cushion is not relaxation, it is the result of all your knowledge. Every experience you have come through sits there each time. It is very serious. Otherwise, you sit because it feels good, and you are comfortable, and once in a while you feel an ecstatic sensation in your body. You feel calmness, stillness, clarity, and forget there are hungry people on this earth. You forget there are lots of diseases which are killing people. If you do not observe that in your sitting, you are just escaping into your desire. It happens if you mistake or limit the focus of your sitting practice.

Sitting shikan taza is the place itself, and things. The dynamics of all Buddhas are in it. When you sit, the cushion sits with you. If you wear glasses, the glasses sit with you. Clothing sits with you. House sits with you. People who are moving around outside all sit with you. They don't take the sitting posture!"

http://www.kobun.jikoji.org/shikantaza.php

Gassho
Sat

[Jundo]

I wondered. From the very little of his writings I read, he reminded me a bit of you:)



Yes, I must admit to being a bit "eccentric" myself, as are 99.9% of western Buddhist teachers I know, and perhaps western convert Buddhists in general ... one of the character traits leading us to be western convert Buddhists! :p

It is true!

The late great Kobun Chino's writings are pretty wild sometimes, though, that is for sure. [gassholook]

Gassho, J

STLah