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View Full Version : September 11th-12th Treeleaf Weekly Zazenkai - 消災妙吉祥陀羅尼



Jundo
09-11-2020, 02:19 PM
Today's Talk will be on the Marvelously Beneficial Disaster Preventing Dharani (Shōsai Myōkichijō darani) common in Soto Zen, and why we generally DO NOT recite it in our Sangha.

Dear All,

Please sit our Treeleaf Zazenkai for 90 minutes with Zazen, Heart Sutra and more:

10am Japan Saturday morning, NY 9pm, LA 6pm Friday night, London 2am and Paris 3am Saturday morning, or any time thereafter here:



https://youtu.be/5nll8r5KY5A


Join live (with or without a camera & microphone) on Zoom at: TREELEAF Now (https://www.treeleaf.org/now/go.php?l=ssr) OR at DIRECT ZOOM LINK (https://zoom.us/j/4834831244), password (if needed): dogen

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLah



PS - There is no "wrong" or "right" in Zazen ... yet here is a little explanation of the "right" times to Bow (A Koan) ...



https://youtu.be/GR6POpsXh9Q

Chant Book is here for those who wish to join in: CHANT BOOK LINK (https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7032-Chant-Book-For-Weekly-and-Monthly-Zazenkai)

The other video I mention on Zendo decorum is this one, from our "Always Beginners" video Series:


Sit-a-Long with Jundo: Zazen for Beginners (12) - Basic Zendo Decorum At Home
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14884-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%2812%29&p=189093#post189093

jonathon
09-11-2020, 02:54 PM
See you all tomorrow.

Gassho, Jonathon

SATLah

Eva
09-11-2020, 05:23 PM
I will sit with all of you on Sunday ,
since working on Friday and Saturday .

Gassho,
eva
sattoday and LAH

Seishin
09-11-2020, 09:03 PM
Will sit On Demand as usual [monk]

sat/lah

Bion
09-11-2020, 09:39 PM
See you all in a few hours! [emoji3526] Can not wait!

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

Juki
09-11-2020, 10:03 PM
I have to teach Yoga at 530 tomorrow morning, so I will sit this tomorrow after Yoga.

Gassho,
Juki

sat today and lah

Geika
09-11-2020, 10:30 PM
I will be joining you all at a later time :)

Gassho
Sat today, lah

Jundo
09-11-2020, 10:50 PM
I would like to dedicate our sitting today to our Sangha friends and others in Oregon and California who have had to flee their homes in the face of great fires, as well as all sentient beings everywhere who face natural disasters of all kinds around the world today.


We dedicate our hopes and aspirations:
To all victims of war and terrorism
To the injured and to all families touched by these tragedies

I will also discuss a tradition called the Marvelously Beneficial Disaster Preventing Dharani (Shōsai Myōkichijō darani 消災妙吉祥陀羅尼 or Shōsai shu 消災呪) and why we generally DO NOT chant the same in our Sangha even in the face of disaster and calamities.


[Chinese]
No mo san man da moto nan oha ra chi koto sha sono nan ◎ to ji to en gya gya gya ki gya ki un nun shifu ra shifu ra hara shifu ra hara shifu ra chishu sa chishu sa chishu ● ri chishu ri sowa ja sowa ja ● sen chi gya shiri ei so mo ko.

It is a traditional chant of the Soto Zen temples in Japan and many around the world.


https://youtu.be/H6GLNpBaKFM

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Jakuden
09-11-2020, 11:23 PM
I will be there with the bells [emoji846]

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/ LAH


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Sekishi
09-11-2020, 11:38 PM
See y'all soon! gassho1

Gassho,
Sekishi #sat

Seikan
09-11-2020, 11:40 PM
See you all soon!

Gassho,
Rob

-stlah-


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Bion
09-11-2020, 11:41 PM
See y'all soon! gassho1

Gassho,
Sekishi #sat

In no time. [emoji1] I’m a bit worried cause last evening I was sitting zazen in the Free Sitting Room and when I was done Zoom had closed already due to some error. I hope it doesn’t happen during zazenkai!

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

Ryokudo
09-12-2020, 12:48 AM
Hi y'all.

I will sit the zazenkai later on the Saturday. But of course in effect I'm with you across space and time.

Gassho

Neilio

SAT/LAH

Shōnin Risa Bear
09-12-2020, 01:43 AM
Must sit this via the video. Thank you to everyone here!

gassho
shonin sat today and lah

Shokai
09-12-2020, 02:28 AM
Sorry but, Had to leave early. Thank you all who sat and will sit. And, thank you Jundo for your teaching. It recalls a story of a temple in India. One day someone started to build a Bar right across the road from the temple. The people of the temple were incensed. How dare he open a bar in front of a temple. So they prayed that the bar would not open and wouldn't you know, just the night before the opening there was a great storm. Lightening struck the bar and it burnt to the ground. The Bar owner got himself a lawyer and sued the temple. When the case came to court, he explained that the people of the temple had prayed against the opening of his bar and in resulted in the destruction of his building. The temple people of course agreed that they had prayed but denied that there was any connection. The Judge threw the case out on the grounds of it's strangeness. The bar owner was claiming the power of prayer whereas the people of faith denied prayer worked.

gassho, Shokai
stlah

Yokai
09-12-2020, 02:50 AM
Thanks Jundo for a great talk. Thanks Jakuden, and everyone for sharing, now and through the week.
Nice to share the shaky tea time too!

Gassho, Chris satlah

Onkai
09-12-2020, 02:53 AM
Thank you, Jundo, Jakuden, and everyone. The talk was wonderful even if the dharani didn't work. I hope the quakes in Tsukuba don't get stronger, and I hope all the people in the path of fires find relief.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat/lah

Bion
09-12-2020, 02:54 AM
As always, a joy seeing you all and sitting with you! Thank you Jundo for that talk and for chanting for us and Jakuden for the bells and chanting us through! [emoji3526]

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

Washin
09-12-2020, 03:04 AM
Thank you Jundo, Jakuden and everyone for sitting together.
It was a lovely Dharani chanting, Jundo gassho1

Gassho,
Washin
sattoday

Doshin
09-12-2020, 03:20 AM
gassho1

Doshin
St

Nanrin
09-12-2020, 03:21 AM
Glad to sit with you all this morning.

Gassho,

Nanrin

Jundo
09-12-2020, 03:24 AM
Must sit this via the video. Thank you to everyone here!

gassho
shonin sat today and lah

Your situation inspired today's sitting, dedicated to you and others in such circumstances.

Gassho, J

STLah

Seikan
09-12-2020, 04:16 AM
Thank you Jundo, Jakuden and all for sharing in practice together today. gassho2

Jundo, I wouldn't count the Dharani out just yet. I liken it to that odd light switch in one's home that doesn't seem to control anything when flipped, but there's probably a person a few towns over that wonders why their lights keep turning off and on. :)

On a serious note, I also sincerely hope for a quick and safe resolution to the wildfire situation out west. Until things subside, I will dedicate my practice to Shonin and everyone affected by the fires in some way. gassho2

Gassho,
Rob

-stlah-

Onka
09-12-2020, 04:21 AM
That talk resonated.
Gassho
Onka
Sat

Kyoshin
09-12-2020, 06:52 AM
Thank you for introducing the Dharani. I wonder though if forbidding its use might be an overcorrection. While I certainly don't think it will directly weaken the fires or prevent new ones, it might help reduce some anxiety, or bring a little peace of mind. I spent many years studying the psychology of ritual and "magical" incantation and the like, and while they don't change reality, they are quite effective at changing people's mindsets, and if you change your mindset, you change your reality. If chanting the Dharani helps you set your intention that calamity won't get the best of you, then your mind will be fortified so that when calamity strikes you're more able to deal with it. Like your favorite lucky charm, even if you know it's not really lucky, having it with you can change your mindset enough to make life just a little easier. My two cents and more than three sentences.

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

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Jundo
09-12-2020, 08:10 AM
Thank you for introducing the Dharani. I wonder though if forbidding its use might be an overcorrection. While I certainly don't think it will directly weaken the fires or prevent new ones, it might help reduce some anxiety, or bring a little peace of mind. I spent many years studying the psychology of ritual and "magical" incantation and the like, and while they don't change reality, they are quite effective at changing people's mindsets, and if you change your mindset, you change your reality. If chanting the Dharani helps you set your intention that calamity won't get the best of you, then your mind will be fortified so that when calamity strikes you're more able to deal with it. Like your favorite lucky charm, even if you know it's not really lucky, having it with you can change your mindset enough to make life just a little easier. My two cents and more than three sentences.

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah



My personal opinion is that superstition, magical hocum and such does more harm than good. We can see that today in this world where scientists and the sane have to fight for equal ground with folks selling crystals, making bogus medical claims, selling fortune telling, decrying conspiracies in which vaccines contain the devil.

Yes, there might be some psychological benefits, but the harms caused by ignorance and old wives tales far outweigh the benefits.

Anyone can choose to chant what they wish on their own time, but ignorance and superstition have no place in this Zen Sangha or on the lips of its priests, and the list of hocus-pocus and hooey starts with Dharani.

A bit long, pardon.

Gassho, Jundo

STLAH

Bion
09-12-2020, 08:43 AM
My personal opinion is that superstition, magical hocum and such does more harm than good. We can see that today in this world where scientists and the sane have to fight for equal ground with folks selling crystals, making bogus medical claims, selling fortune telling, decrying conspiracies in which vaccines contain the devil.

Yes, there might be some psychological benefits, but the harms caused by ignorance and old wives tales far outweigh the benefits.

Anyone can choose to chant what they wish on their own time, but ignorance and superstition have no place in this Zen Sangha or on the lips of its priests, and the list of hocus-pocus and hooey starts with Dharani.

A bit long, pardon.

Gassho, Jundo

STLAH

I’ve been with all of you for maybe a month now and I came in being unfamiliar with how you practiced here yet what I found was a practice that reflected mine. I remember years back when I was finding my way in the world of Zen, separating myself from my christian background, I got a copy of the Soto Scriptures For Daily Practice and while studying all the different chants and sutras and verses and dharanis I slowly came to create a practice that was personal and felt sincere. I remember taking out certain parts of the dedication of merit, because I did not feel it necessary to mention deities and hungry ghosts and I decided to skip the dharanis as I understood their meaning and background and I felt they had no place in my daily practice. I was actually going to mention that during our tea time after zazenkai this morning. So I am grateful to you Jundo for keeping it real and working to keep the practice sincere!

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

Jundo
09-12-2020, 09:41 AM
I’ve been with all of you for maybe a month now and I came in being unfamiliar with how you practiced here yet what I found was a practice that reflected mine. I remember years back when I was finding my way in the world of Zen, separating myself from my christian background, I got a copy of the Soto Scriptures For Daily Practice and while studying all the different chants and sutras and verses and dharanis I slowly came to create a practice that was personal and felt sincere. I remember taking out certain parts of the dedication of merit, because I did not feel it necessary to mention deities and hungry ghosts and I decided to skip the dharanis as I understood their meaning and background and I felt they had no place in my daily practice. I was actually going to mention that during our tea time after zazenkai this morning. So I am grateful to you Jundo for keeping it real and working to keep the practice sincere!

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

Ya know, there are plenty of other groups and teachers in the Buddhist and Zen world offering all the bells and whistles of magic and wild claims ... and if somebody wants that, they can go there, easy to find. Here, try this guy ...


Tulku Buddha Maitreya, the Reincarnation of Christ, designs and creates all of the Monastic Meditation Tools and transmits His meditation blessings thru these tools, along with His pujas that He personally performed for Soul Therapy Meditation music.

https://www.shambhalahealingtools.com/Default.asp

We just are trying to offer a contrast here for those who want something a bit more "down to earth."

My attitude, by the way, has gotten me kicked off a few conservative Buddhist websites and forums where my skepticism on the literal truth of some doctrines is not welcome by the believers.

Gassho, J

STLah

Bion
09-12-2020, 09:48 AM
Ya know, there are plenty of other groups and teachers in the Buddhist and Zen world offering all the bells and whistles of magic and wild claims ... and if somebody wants that, they can go there, easy to find. Here, try this guy ...



https://www.shambhalahealingtools.com/Default.asp

We just are trying to offer a contrast here for those who want something a bit more "down to earth."

My attitude, by the way, has gotten me kicked off a few conservative Buddhist websites and forums where my skepticism on the literal truth of some doctrines is not welcome by the believers.

Gassho, J

STLah

I am not surprised at all bu that last phrase pf yours. There is zero consensus on various topics even within the same buddhist school.
I remember feeling very impressed with the Dalai Lama once, cause in an interview or talk he said he himself was very skeptical about various topics such as super powers, the idea of reincarnation as a literal thing, magical healing etc. There is much mixture of beliefs and superstitions within Buddhism, but I always say Buddhism is like water.. it takes the shape of the recipient it’s in: in Japan it mixed with Shinto and now Kami-sama protects temples, in China is drew from Taoism, in Tibet from Bön... It’s only natural it takes a different form in the western world!

Sorry about the extra sentences! Going back to my rakusu now [emoji1]

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

Margherita
09-12-2020, 11:51 AM
I sat with the recording, thank you everybody for your effort and stay safe.

Jundo, I have a question about your teaching, and I'm sorry because I know I will write a bit more than three sentences. I appreciated the teaching and I think it is a good approach but then, why chanting the dedication? Isn't it a bit "abracadra" as well? Personally, I don't mind a bit of abracadra and magic in life, and I explain myself. I am the person who keeps crystals and read tarots, do I really believe in them? Well, not really, the stones and crystals are reminders of the targets I want to reach, some people keep dream/target boards, I'm not that crafty, so I have a beautiful crystal that my wife gave me that supposedly should help creativity. I don't believe it does, but it reminds me to sit down and be creative, write my stories. I read tarots (almost exclusively for myself) but I have always treated them like a means to explore my mind and unleash creativity. At times, I have found answers to my questions, but I know that the answers come from my mind, not an external power present in the tarots. Perhaps for some people dharanis would work in the same way, like Kyoshin was saying?

Juki
09-12-2020, 01:24 PM
Thank you, Jundo. Thank you, Sangha. gassho2

gassho,
Juki

Sat today and lah

Bokucho
09-12-2020, 01:26 PM
Thank you for the teaching Jundo, and for the efforts of everyone involved to make these Zazenkai the special events that they are.

Gassho,

Joshua
SatToday

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Tairin
09-12-2020, 01:36 PM
Thank you everyone. I sat with you this morning.

That was an interesting talk Jundo. Ultimately I am a down to earth kind of guy too. I think I’d feel uncomfortable if the teaching here had too much of a mystical element.

My apologies for the extra sentences.

gassho2
Tairin
Sat today and lah

Doshin
09-12-2020, 01:48 PM
My personal opinion is that superstition, magical hocum and such does more harm than good. We can see that today in this world where scientists and the sane have to fight for equal ground with folks selling crystals, making bogus medical claims, selling fortune telling, decrying conspiracies in which vaccines contain the devil.

Gassho, Jundo

STLAH


This is my grief, my concern of the future for my grandson. It defines my retreat from social media, more time spent alone in the desert and mountains. Six decades of resistance wore me down.

Doshin
St

Bokugan
09-12-2020, 04:25 PM
It was lovely to join you all last night at the end of a looong couple of weeks. Thank you Jakuden and Jundo, thank you sangha [gassholook]

One of the things that led me to the path that brought me to zen was a personal paradigm shift away from superstition, so I can see where you are coming from.

May all that are dealing with the fires find coolness and calm within in the midst of these difficult times. gassho2

Gassho,

Ryan S.
Sat Today

Inshin
09-12-2020, 05:16 PM
I'll sit late in the evening today. Alongside the victims of Oregon and California fires I'll also dedicate my practice to the the refugees of Moira camp in Greece (the biggest in Europe) that burned down recently and thousands of people are forced on the streets.

Gassho

Shōnin Risa Bear
09-12-2020, 05:22 PM
Your situation inspired today's sitting

Thanks so much Jundo; we spent two nights at Daughter's but the 156,000 acre fire has slowed and crews are finally able to get near it and start fire lines. So we're back at the house for now. Smoke is unreal, about 450 AQI, should start to clear by Tuesday.

6688

Gassho
shonin sat today and some online lah

Kenku
09-12-2020, 07:27 PM
I sat with the recorded Zazenkai. Thanks Jundo, Jakuden and everyone. I hope you remain safe Shonin. We had terrible fires here on the East Coast of Australia early this year and my parents' and my sister's houses were threatened but saved so I know how worrying it is.

When I was with the Diamond Sangha, we chanted Sho Sai Myo Kichijo Darani though I don't remember anyone ever explaining why. I too would be very sceptical of it having any magical power though I do think the Sangha chanting together has some psychological value. Perhaps the technology will allow it some day.

Gassho,
Mark.

Sat today and lah

Sekiyuu
09-13-2020, 02:14 AM
Just sat with the recorded zazenkai. Hope everyone affected by the fires remains safe. The talk reminded me that practice is not about dismissing our daily problems as delusions, but accepting them as whatever it is they actually are, then proceeding to do something about them.

Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today

Seishin
09-13-2020, 06:02 AM
Sat on demand the last two mornings, thank you everyone. [monk]

sat

Tosei
09-13-2020, 07:46 AM
Sat this morning. Thank you all. Abracadabra, let the fury of the fires recede.

Gassho,

Peter

Kokuu
09-13-2020, 03:14 PM
Lovely! Thank you all!

Gassho
Kokuu

Jakuden
09-13-2020, 04:24 PM
Thanks so much Jundo; we spent two nights at Daughter's but the 156,000 acre fire has slowed and crews are finally able to get near it and start fire lines. So we're back at the house for now. Smoke is unreal, about 450 AQI, should start to clear by Tuesday.

6688

Gassho
shonin sat today and some online lah

You and everyone in the "fire zone" are still very much in my thoughts and Metta chanting, dear Shonin. Stay safe.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

StoBird
09-13-2020, 09:56 PM
Thank you everyone... May we be gentle and kind even as we fight with all our might to put out the fires!gassho1

Gassho
Tom

Sat

Ryokudo
09-13-2020, 11:16 PM
Have sat with you all across space and time, thanks for the session! The talk was great, and love the phrase 'someone who winks at the gods', it sounds like the sort of thing a mythical Greek hero would do. That's us Jundo and the Argonauts!
Gassho

Neilio
SAT/LAH

Science Abbot
09-14-2020, 03:41 AM
Thank you, Treeleaf, for Zazenkai, and thank you for this insightful Dharma Talk. I love tradition wholeheartedly, but at the same time, the world could benefit from more waking to this "down to earth."

Gassho,
Mui
Sat/LAH

Tomás ESP
09-14-2020, 06:13 AM
Sat the Zazenkai. Thank you Jundo for taking a stand for science, yet keeping your heart open for all beings who suffer. May you all have a wonderful week.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat

Ryusoku
09-14-2020, 06:50 AM
Thank you for posting weekly Zazenkai. Couldn't sit on Sat due to prior commitments, but really appreciate experience in retrospect.

Gassho,
Brett.
Sat Today.

Risho
09-14-2020, 02:23 PM
Thank you

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

Kyōsen
09-14-2020, 08:52 PM
gassho1

Gassho
Kyōsen
Sat|LAH

Shoki
09-15-2020, 12:26 AM
I was just able to sit this Zazenkai today Thanks to all and thank you Jundo for the talk. Good sense makes sense.

Gassho
ST-lah
Shoki

Kotei
09-15-2020, 06:53 PM
Thank you everyone!
Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

Eva
09-16-2020, 08:18 AM
Thank you for Zazenkai, thank you for teaching .

Gassho,
eva
sattoday and LAH

Choboku
09-18-2020, 03:32 AM
Thank you everyone.

Sat today,
Adam

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Eikyo
09-19-2020, 10:32 AM
My personal opinion is that superstition, magical hocum and such does more harm than good. We can see that today in this world where scientists and the sane have to fight for equal ground with folks selling crystals, making bogus medical claims, selling fortune telling, decrying conspiracies in which vaccines contain the devil.

Yes, there might be some psychological benefits, but the harms caused by ignorance and old wives tales far outweigh the benefits.

Anyone can choose to chant what they wish on their own time, but ignorance and superstition have no place in this Zen Sangha or on the lips of its priests, and the list of hocus-pocus and hooey starts with Dharani.

A bit long, pardon.

Gassho, Jundo

STLAHI finished sitting with the recording yesterday- very interesting topic! Apologies in advance for running long.

Your resident Buddhist witch chiming in with some thoughts - I think there's a difference between hocus pocus/superstition and magic/ritual.

The definition of magic in a pagan context is the art of changing consciousness through will. Magic in this sense can take the form of a song, a poem, any other symbolic way of engaging with the world through which we come out changed (note I say we come out changed- not that we are changing the world, though inevitably the two are connected).

I agree that it is dangerous to think we can control or prevent disasters or unforseen events by chanting or any other ritual - in fact part of the magic and beauty of life is recognising the chaos we are all subject to, and accepting with serenity those things we cannot change.

I think those who advocate that positive thinking/crystals/meditation/etc can get rid of any illness or unfortunate circumstance are engaging in an atrocious form of victim blaming, and also deluding themselves.

I'm grateful and understand that magic is not practiced here in this sangha, but I will still do it in my own time [emoji6] same as I do with playing violin, writing, dancing, etc. And I do not find it harmful, as long as it is approached as I described above (ie. with surrender and understanding we cannot, nor should we desire to, control everything)

Apologies again for running long.

Gassho,
Dee
ST

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Jundo
09-19-2020, 07:03 PM
The definition of magic in a pagan context is the art of changing consciousness through will. Magic in this sense can take the form of a song, a poem, any other symbolic way of engaging with the world through which we come out changed (note I say we come out changed- not that we are changing the world, though inevitably the two are connected).

I agree that it is dangerous to think we can control or prevent disasters or unforseen events by chanting or any other ritual - in fact part of the magic and beauty of life is recognising the chaos we are all subject to, and accepting with serenity those things we cannot change.

I think those who advocate that positive thinking/crystals/meditation/etc can get rid of any illness or unfortunate circumstance are engaging in an atrocious form of victim blaming, and also deluding themselves.

I'm grateful and understand that magic is not practiced here in this sangha, but I will still do it in my own time [emoji6] same as I do with playing violin, writing, dancing, etc. And I do not find it harmful, as long as it is approached as I described above (ie. with surrender and understanding we cannot, nor should we desire to, control everything)

Hi Dee,

You explanation makes a lot of sense, and it sounds very good for you. However, I wonder if that is a very modern interpretation of the spells meant to explain them psychologically, or the traditional way they were understood. Further (and the more dangerous part in my heart), I wonder if, even today, the vast majority of people encountering a Buddhist or pagan engaging in these spells would think about them like you explain, or would they still think that the spell is being invoked to cure illness, put a curse, remove a curse, help bring good luck, etc.?

Knowing this world in which we live, in which all kinds of wild beliefs. doubts about science and medicine, and conspiracy theories thrive, I doubt that most people are as sophisticated in their thinking about these things as you are, so I still reject their use here.

(Sorry, I ran a little long)

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Meitou
09-20-2020, 07:42 AM
Just caught up with this, thank you everyone.
Superstition, doing daft things to ward off the evil eye, selling fortune telling, curses etc are still very much part of life here, and actually seem to go hand in hand with religious beliefs like trusting the curative power of holy water and 'crying' or 'bleeding' statues instead of medicine. Huge profits can be made from very vulnerable people who can least afford to lose anything else in their lives because they don't just lose money, they are stripped of hope and trust. However I wouldn't connect this form of hocus pocus with what Dee is talking about.
Dharani and such were part of why I moved away from the Tibetan tradition - donating 10,000 chants is less likely to benefit the victims of an earthquake or fire than donating €20 in my opinion.
So sorry for an extra sentence.
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday lah

Bion
09-20-2020, 10:53 AM
Hi Dee,

You explanation makes a lot of sense, and it sounds very good for you. However, I wonder if that is a very modern interpretation of the spells meant to explain them psychologically, or the traditional way they were understood. Further (and the more dangerous part in my heart), I wonder if, even today, the vast majority of people encountering a Buddhist or pagan engaging in these spells would think about them like you explain, or would they still think that the spell is being invoked to cure illness, put a curse, remove a curse, help bring good luck, etc.?

Knowing this world in which we live, in which all kinds of wild beliefs. doubts about science and medicine, and conspiracy theories thrive, I doubt that most people are as sophisticated in their thinking about these things as you are, so I still reject their use here.

(Sorry, I ran a little long)

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

If I may... I think it’s important to always remember that Buddhism and Zen in particular are focused on understanding our own place within reality and on understanding and accepting our personal responsibility in absolutely everything.

It’s a tricky thing when we take away from our responsibility and cast it on external factors like gods, saviors, messiahs, spells etc ..

More often than not we find ways to escape the reality of things like the unpredictable and violent nature of the universe, the lack of “fairness” of life and death, our inability to control the outcome of everything and the impermanence of everything.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

Eikyo
09-20-2020, 02:30 PM
If I may... I think it’s important to always remember that Buddhism and Zen in particular are focused on understanding our own place within reality and on understanding and accepting our personal responsibility in absolutely everything.

It’s a tricky thing when we take away from our responsibility and cast it on external factors like gods, saviors, messiahs, spells etc ..

More often than not we find ways to escape the reality of things like the unpredictable and violent nature of the universe, the lack of “fairness” of life and death, our inability to control the outcome of everything and the impermanence of everything.

[emoji1374] SatToday lahI hear you Jake, however to me magic goes hand in hand with recognising our individual responsibility.

Everyone's practice will differ, so I think it is important to have nuance when speaking about people who participate in the occult and magical practices. Otherwise it is like being back in the Catholic Church and hearing them ranting about pagans [emoji6]

Gassho,
Dee
ST

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Kaisho
09-23-2020, 02:11 AM
I sat this today. The fires talk was very good and I have never heard of the dharma talked of as extinguishing fires. On the other hand I will say with magic it is something as a pagan/multi faith practitioner I have some regard for but can see how it may be harmful in a practice space.

I apologize for the many sentences ahead of time.

Edit: I will say, after reviewing many comments in the thread, that modern witchcraft/magical practice is leaning more to blending responsibility with faith. Responsibility in that it isn't just the woo/universe/spirits etc doing the work but you putting through the effort and taking responsibility for doing all you can to make things happen. I.E. practice fire safety and don't be lax with checking your stove is safe. The other bit where faith is concerned is leaving in the hands of the universe/higher power/chant/spell what you can't control.

This is not a traditional folklore perspective of cast a spell and be lazy on the topic but one that sees personal responsibility as a necessary thing and is commonly taught in many circles.
That being said not all practice in this manner and lean on stones and other curios to do things. I can see how the snake oil salesman and the miracle cure doctor can harm so I am not saying anyone is remiss but I did want to voice a perspective that might be missed.

And, I appreciate the limits set with the Sangha and shall do my pagan practices on my own time as I do with all else. :)

Gassho
Lah Sat

Chelsea

P.s. I also apologize to anyone who caught me between edits as I attempted to speak kindly and with regard.

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Tai Shi
10-06-2020, 05:57 AM
Let me say my final post on Oct 5/6– Sept 11 was my 69th birthday. Drs and nurses have begun teaching me to be a senior. One day I am young, good, finally the next day old. 2020, I become senior at 69.
Gassho
sat / lah
Tai Shi


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Tai Shi
10-06-2020, 07:30 PM
There is no intention to approach the occult or religion in my posts. Here on Treeleaf Zendo I attempt Buddhism. From time to tim you will hear me mention my other beliefs, but here and in many places on the internet you will see my Buddhism. Like all great religious leaders the Buddha was a simple a man with an best of lives and life. In do not adhere let me know and I will make sure what you say.
Gassho
Deep
Bows
sat : lah
Tai Shi


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