Kōshō Uchiyama and Randomness

[Inshin]

Kōshō Uchiyama in his book Opening the Hand of Thought talks about randomness within karmic order and this got me intrigued, because sometimes during Zazen there's vast space within which occasionally a single image or a thought appears, popping up like a balloon and disappearing instantly.
Theese can be surprisingly random, like an animated glass of beer with smily face, [confused] and it can just disappear or become something else if I chose to relate to it, eg. by investigating where and why it came from, creating a story and maybe even resulting in me having some beer later on in the day.
"Form is Emptiness
Emptiness is Form" (form is form, emptiness is emptiness) - is samsara created by RELATING to form whithin emptiness?



Forgive my unscientific language, and weird example, it's all coming from my limited experience [gassholook]

Gassho
Sat

[Ryumon]

But they only seem random; they arise because of some connection in the mind that we can't see.

I find the most surprising version of this is when I'm taking a nap, just before falling asleep - or sometimes when I don't fully fall asleep - in what's called hypnogogic hallucinations. They can be long, almost cinematic stories that play out in my mind. Maybe they are a glimpse of another reality, another universe; or maybe it's just the mind mixing things up.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

[Kokuu]

Hi Ania

I agree with Kirk that things appear random but are the result of a complex web of cause and effect (known as pratītyasamutpāda or dependent arising) which can produce results we are not expecting. Some of those might just be a product of the way the brain and visual system works.

But, when we sit and they appear, it can certainly be perceived as random as we wondering why a certain sound, smell or image has suddenly appeared in our brain!

As far as samsara goes in relation to form and emptiness, I would personally say that where we get trapped is in failing to see that form is a product of emptiness (all of those complex webs of interaction again which mean that nothing has an independent identity) and rather take it as real and solid not a passing phenomenon arising from causes and conditions.

This is why this stanza from The Heart Sutra is so important and central to Buddhist thinking:

ruupam shuunyataa form is emptiness
shuunyataiva ruupam emptiness is form
ruupaan na prithak shuunyataa form is not other than emptiness
shuunyataayaa na prithag ruupam emptiness is not other than form

I see this as looking at phenomena from two directions. Firstly, if we look at individual forms, such as a tree, a dog or even an Ania, we can see that they are the product of many different causes that come together to produce that form.

Then, if we look at all phenomena in terms of the totality of existence throughout space and time, we see that this manifests as individual forms, such as trees, dogs and Anias.

Looking at either the totality or the individual forms is only ever half of the picture. By seeing the whole and the individual we understand how everything arises and passes away not separate from everything that is. When we chant The Identity of Relative and Absolute (Sandokai) in each four hour Zazenkai, this chant is talking about precisely this.

Apologies for vastly exceeding my three sentence allocation.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Tai Shi]

I doubt that Uchiyama would partake of any alcohol knowing that alcohol causes alcoholic ramifications.
Gassho
sat
Tai Shi


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[Inshin]

Thank you Kirk and Kokuu. That is how I also understood this until I read the following from Kosho Uchiyama.

"I’ve mentioned that there are two types of realities, the one being
accidental reality and the other being undeniable reality. When you think
about it, I myself am just an accidental reality. After all, there is nothing
that says I had to be born in twentieth-century Japan. I could just as wellhave been born in ancient Egypt, or Papua New Guinea, or indeed not
have been born at all. In other words, being born in any age or in any
place is a possibility, an accident, just as my being here right now is an
accident.
From that we can say, then, that all the things I see in my world, and
the world itself taking shape as I create it, are also an accident."
"What we call “I” or “ego” arises by chance or accident, so we just let go
instead of grasping thoughts and “I.” When we let go of all our notions
about things, everything becomes really true. This is the fourth
undeniable reality, complete tranquillity, or nehan jakujō. It is also
described as “all things are as they are,” shohō jissō. Therefore, when we let
go of everything, we do not create artificial attachments and connections.
Everything is as it is. Everything exists in one accidental way or another.
This is the present reality of life. It is the reality of that which cannot be
grasped, the reality about which nothing can be said. This very
ungraspability is what is absolutely real about things."

Appologies for this quote going over 3 sentence.

Gassho
Sat

[Tai Shi]

I’m wondering if writers in this thread could condense writing to 3 or 3.5 lines as Jundo suggested. It’s a challenge?
Gassho
sat
Tai Shi


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[Ryumon]

I’m wondering if writers in this thread could condense writing to 3 or 3.5 lines as Jundo suggested. It’s a challenge?
Gassho
sat
Tai Shi


Mine. Was. Only four sentences.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

[Tai Shi]

Since a writing and reading journal are part of my contemplation I see no contradiction so writing is contemplation.
Gassho
sat
Tai Shi


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[Inshin]

I’m wondering if writers in this thread could condense writing to 3 or 3.5 lines as Jundo suggested. It’s a challenge?
Gassho
sat
Tai Shi


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gassho2

If anyone would like to express their thoughts about this thread in more than 3 sentences please feel free to PM me :)
Gassho
Sat

[Kokuu]

Hi Ania

I think Uchiyama is talking about the same thing we all are, in different terms. Accidental reality is all things that are produced by dependent arising i.e. all conditioned phenomena.

However, when we sit and let go of all ideas about things, we just let them be as they are, and stop putting labels on things (=absolute reality)

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Kokuu]

I doubt that Uchiyama would partake of any alcohol knowing that alcohol causes alcoholic ramifications

I don't know, Tai Shi. Quite a few Zen teachers were fond of a wee tipple and sometimes more!

Alcohol can sometimes lead to alcoholism and sometimes it is just one drink every now and again.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Meitou]

Hi Ania

I agree with Kirk that things appear random but are the result of a complex web of cause and effect (known as pratītyasamutpāda or dependent arising) which can produce results we are not expecting. Some of those might just be a product of the way the brain and visual system works.

But, when we sit and they appear, it can certainly be perceived as random as we wondering why a certain sound, smell or image has suddenly appeared in our brain!

As far as samsara goes in relation to form and emptiness, I would personally say that where we get trapped is in failing to see that form is a product of emptiness (all of those complex webs of interaction again which mean that nothing has an independent identity) and rather take it as real and solid not a passing phenomenon arising from causes and conditions.

This is why this stanza from The Heart Sutra is so important and central to Buddhist thinking:

ruupam shuunyataa form is emptiness
shuunyataiva ruupam emptiness is form
ruupaan na prithak shuunyataa form is not other than emptiness
shuunyataayaa na prithag ruupam emptiness is not other than form

I see this as looking at phenomena from two directions. Firstly, if we look at individual forms, such as a tree, a dog or even an Ania, we can see that they are the product of many different causes that come together to produce that form.

Then, if we look at all phenomena in terms of the totality of existence throughout space and time, we see that this manifests as individual forms, such as trees, dogs and Anias.

Looking at either the totality or the individual forms is only ever half of the picture. By seeing the whole and the individual we understand how everything arises and passes away not separate from everything that is. When we chant The Identity of Relative and Absolute (Sandokai) in each four hour Zazenkai, this chant is talking about precisely this.

Apologies for vastly exceeding my three sentence allocation.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

A most excellent explanation of that tricky concept Kokuu!
Thank you friend.
Gassho
Meitou
Sattoday lah

[Tai Shi]

It’s time for me to admit I’m wrong, and as any Zenie junkie it’s possible to get caught up in the rule and not the spirit. Yes, I wrote militiamen comments of more than a total, and a lot more, but I’m now saying tha as Littlejohn author of my first book of contemplation, The 12-step Buddhist, remarks in another way, his long term therapist is a Zen practicing therapist and his editorial advisor is Professor of Buddhist, Zen, studies at Columbia University, we sometimes fail to see need for an eclectic approach to our “whole” lives. Littlejohn suggests that so many of us talk the talk and fail to walk the walk. I became addicted to a particular prescription pain killer while claiming to be sober. Not so drastic but equally as devastating is the student of Zen who eats too much sugar, showers too much, spends into debt unfathomable, drives their car in excess of speed limits, beats children, hits animals, demands love when none is deserved, the list goes on and on. Littlejohn suggests that most of us can benefit from psychotherapy, primary care doctors or psychiatrists, and many are in need with the help of a doctor, psychoactive medications; he says so many are addicted to food, caffein, pop, substances we might not think, and he says all of us can benefit frome wholesome food and exercise. In other words, as a good Buddhist we can strive to be as healthy as possible. As the Literature of recovery states, reaching for a life preserver as “only the drowning” can. This is the state in which even the longtime recovery can bring us to.
Gassho
sat
Tai Shi


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[gaurdianaq]

because sometimes during Zazen there's vast space within which occasionally a single image or a thought appears, popping up like a balloon and disappearing instantly.

Theese can be surprisingly random, like an animated glass of beer with smily face, [confused] and it can just disappear or become something else if I chose to relate to it, eg. by investigating where and why it came from, creating a story and maybe even resulting in me having some beer later on in the day.


I'm curious, do you mean that when you sit Zazen you often have a blank mind so to speak? For me, doesn't matter if I'm sitting Zazen or not there is always a bunch of random thoughts popping into my mind. Without fail there is a song playing, and sometimes my brain will go to something random like a funny joke, or sometimes it will just go to something related to my job/something that happened recently, I don't think I've ever had a quiet moment in my head that lasted more than 5 seconds. I'm assuming that has something to do with me having ADHD. The only time I don't find this happening is if I'm concentrating on something like work with high intensity, and even then it's not guaranteed.

Apologies for going over 3 sentences

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Tai Shi]

So the aim in Zazen is blankness? Does this not raise blank to special place. Is not blank the goal not the hole less goal?
Gassho
sat
Tai Shi


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[Bion]

So the aim in Zazen is blankness? Does this not raise blank to special place. Is not blank the goal not the hole less goal?
Gassho
sat
Tai Shi


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I wouldn’t say the aim is blankness at all, since we can’t stop thinking and it happens whether we want it to or not. Allowing it to happen, recognizing it but not reacting to it is what we aim for. Whenever we latch on to a thought, we should aim to let go of it and just think the thought of zazen and then zazen will think its own thoughts.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[Inshin]

I'm curious, do you mean that when you sit Zazen you often have a blank mind so to speak? For me, doesn't matter if I'm sitting Zazen or not there is always a bunch of random thoughts popping into my mind. Without fail there is a song playing, and sometimes my brain will go to something random like a funny joke, or sometimes it will just go to something related to my job/something that happened recently, I don't think I've ever had a quiet moment in my head that lasted more than 5 seconds. I'm assuming that has something to do with me having ADHD. The only time I don't find this happening is if I'm concentrating on something like work with high intensity, and even then it's not guaranteed.

Apologies for going over 3 sentences

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah

I wouldn't describe it as blankness, and I don't believe that blankness is a goal of Zazen, since Zazen is goalless, so I let everything be as it is.
It's just happens sometimes as sort of "active/or alive stillness without internal monologue but merely "seeds" of thoughts or images appear occasionally and dissappear immediately.
They can be grasped and then it becomes internal story/monologue, since my curiosity about randomness.

Gassho
Sat

[Inshin]

I'm curious, do you mean that when you sit Zazen you often have a blank mind so to speak? For me, doesn't matter if I'm sitting Zazen or not there is always a bunch of random thoughts popping into my mind. Without fail there is a song playing, and sometimes my brain will go to something random like a funny joke, or sometimes it will just go to something related to my job/something that happened recently, I don't think I've ever had a quiet moment in my head that lasted more than 5 seconds. I'm assuming that has something to do with me having ADHD. The only time I don't find this happening is if I'm concentrating on something like work with high intensity, and even then it's not guaranteed.

Apologies for going over 3 sentences

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah

I'm not any specialist, so I may wrong, but I suspect that the only difference in ADHD is that you experience throughs happening faster and seemingly more random. But also for you there has to be a moment before a thought arise - it fascinates me to observe this happening.
And again - who is observing?
Gassho
Sat

[gaurdianaq]

I wouldn't describe it as blankness, and I don't believe that blankness is a goal of Zazen, since Zazen is goalless, so I let everything be as it is.
It's just happens sometimes as sort of "active/or alive stillness without internal monologue but merely "seeds" of thoughts or images appear occasionally and dissappear immediately.
They can be grasped and then it becomes internal story/monologue, since my curiosity about randomness.

Gassho
Sat

I don't mean blankness/stillness as a goal, it's just a foreign concept for me to ever truly have a still mind. I just tend to try to ignore the noise (imagine someone constantly talking your ear off/playing songs, you don't tell them to go away, but you also don't respond, that's how I tend to find my Zazen)



I'm not any specialist, so I may wrong, but I suspect that the only difference in ADHD is that you experience throughs happening faster and seemingly more random. But also for you there has to be a moment before a thought arise - it fascinates me to observe this happening.

If there is, it's so small that it's not really perceptible. Mainly feels like a constant stream of thoughts, just like how a river is never really still.

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Kokuu]

I'm curious, do you mean that when you sit Zazen you often have a blank mind so to speak?

As others have said, a blank mind is not the aim of Zazen.

However, we may notice that thoughts and other sensations are coming and going in open awareness.

In terms of an often used metaphor for meditation, we notice both the clouds and the sky, the thoughts and the awareness they occur in.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[gaurdianaq]

As others have said, a blank mind is not the aim of Zazen.

However, we may notice that thoughts and other sensations are coming and going in open awareness.

In terms of an often used metaphor for meditation, we notice both the clouds and the sky, the thoughts and the awareness they occur in.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

Just to clarify, I wasn't asking about a blank mind as the goal. I was asking if people have actual moments of quiet in their mind when they sit. (Or even when they aren't sitting)

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Tai Shi]

Yes I see not placing it above or below. Letting it happen as Jundo and scenery.
Gassho


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[Kokuu]

Just to clarify, I wasn't asking about a blank mind as the goal. I was asking if people have actual moments of quiet in their mind when they sit. (Or even when they aren't sitting)

Ah, okay! Thank you for clarifying.

In that case, the answer is sometimes.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Bion]

Just to clarify, I wasn't asking about a blank mind as the goal. I was asking if people have actual moments of quiet in their mind when they sit. (Or even when they aren't sitting)

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah

It is very important to define “quiet” before accepting answers, because your quiet might not be my quieto or someone else’s. What’s important to remember about zazen is that it is your alone and new every single time you sit, so the zazen from yesterday has nothing to do with that of today and tomorrow and whether your thought were scattered, chaotic, organized or calm, the zazen was complete with nothing lacking.
To give you a straightforward answer from my experience: to me, quiet means focused on being focused, or rather thinking just the thought of zazen. Awareness of the posture, of tension and tenseness, of breath and senses and no interaction with the thoughts. I remain i that state more often than in an agitated state. And as soon as I catch the mind grabbing thoughts, I go back to my breath, the mudra and the posture.


So sorry about the extra sentences! I couldn’t say all that in less phrases.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[gaurdianaq]

It is very important to define “quiet” before accepting answers, because your quiet might not be my quieto or someone else’s. What’s important to remember about zazen is that it is your alone and new every single time you sit, so the zazen from yesterday has nothing to do with that of today and tomorrow and whether your thought were scattered, chaotic, organized or calm, the zazen was complete with nothing lacking.
To give you a straightforward answer from my experience: to me, quiet means focused on being focused, or rather thinking just the thought of zazen. Awareness of the posture, of tension and tenseness, of breath and senses and no interaction with the thoughts. I remain i that state more often than in an agitated state. And as soon as I catch the mind grabbing thoughts, I go back to my breath, the mudra and the posture.


So sorry about the extra sentences! I couldn’t say all that in less phrases.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

Quiet means not having a song playing on loop, a period where there isn't some random thought going through the mind. Even if that period is just 5 seconds.

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Bion]

Quiet means not having a song playing on loop, a period where there isn't some random thought going through the mind. Even if that period is just 5 seconds.

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah

In my experience, there is always a thought Evan, even if it’s the thought of zazen. In your case, your ADHD makes the experience so much more personal but whatever the rest of us experience might not happen to you and that is fine. If a song starts playing in your mind, go back to your breath and follow it a bit and if the song starts again do a whole body scan.. check for posture, check the mudra, figure out where there is tenseness and stay with the present moment focusing on being focused but try not to give too much importance to “quietness”.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[gaurdianaq]

In my experience, there is always a thought Evan, even if it’s the thought of zazen. In your case, your ADHD makes the experience so much more personal but whatever the rest of us experience might not happen to you and that is fine. If a song starts playing in your mind, go back to your breath and follow it a bit and if the song starts again do a whole body scan.. check for posture, check the mudra, figure out where there is tenseness and stay with the present moment focusing on being focused but try not to give too much importance to “quietness”.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

Sorry just to clarify, I wasn't specifically asking for Zazen advice, I was just curious to learn more about others experiences. It's just something I've been curious about, do some people actually have quiet moments where there isn't some thought/inner monologue going on in their mind (regardless of Zazen). Anias original post made it sound like that might have been the case (though I could have misread). I've long since accepted that I will never have a quiet mind.

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Bion]

Sorry just to clarify, I wasn't specifically asking for Zazen advice, I was just curious to learn more about others experiences. It's just something I've been curious about, do some people actually have quiet moments where there isn't some thought/inner monologue going on in their mind (regardless of Zazen). Anias original post made it sound like that might have been the case (though I could have misread). I've long since accepted that I will never have a quiet mind.

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah

Got it. Sorry! I wasn’t meaning to give advice even though I slipped into it.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[Tai Shi]

This is not a Game of Thrones or any other but I do appreciate the quiet mind. When I have been leaving an uncomfortable mind set or entering antithesis gas or IV, or medical
treatment it’s helped to remember Jundo’s advice to me. Chant to myself a “Judeo/Christian” prayer then count my breathing. This helps me calm and enter the “highway” with my “car” and ease Into my experience noticing scenery left and right. Jundo’s metaphors and my own experience bring me into Shikantaza. For others another chant might work just as well.
Gassho
sat / lah
Tai Shi

[Tai Shi]

From here on out, for a while, if not for good, I’ll try for “good” I’ll keep commentary to 3 lines. Jundo’s good to me.
Gassho
sat / lah
Tai Shi


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[Margherita]

I think Kirk is partially right, partially because for a hypnogogic image to be present I think you have to be nearly asleep (I have them often before bed time and at times during zazen, when I am very sleepy). Just maybe, it is only a natural response of your brain: it craves information and when it won't receive any because you are staring at a wall, it will create some of its own. I suppose, from a Buddhist perspective, look at them and pass on, without grasping these images?

Gassho,
Mags
ST

PS I love how random these images can get, they are very interesting and at times they can include other senses as well.

[Margherita]

Just to clarify, I wasn't asking about a blank mind as the goal. I was asking if people have actual moments of quiet in their mind when they sit. (Or even when they aren't sitting)

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah

I do have them, but they won't last too long. At the beginning that's what I was aiming for, no more now. I just try not to cling to my thoughts, bring back my attention to the breath, the posture, the hara.

Gassho,
Mags
ST

PS I apologise but I realised I missed the non-zazen part! Maybe I should go to bed. Anyway, Yes, I have these moments at times but they don't last long, I try to concentrate on my hara and breath when walking or doing other activities. Not all the time, though...

[gaurdianaq]

I do have them, but they won't last too long. At the beginning that's what I was aiming for, no more now. I just try not to cling to my thoughts, bring back my attention to the breath, the posture, the hara.

Gassho,
Mags
ST

PS I apologise but I realised I missed the non-zazen part! Maybe I should go to bed. Anyway, Yes, I have these moments at times but they don't last long, I try to concentrate on my hara and breath when walking or doing other activities. Not all the time, though...

Interesting, how long is not long? Like few seconds, or a few minutes? (Also sleep well!)

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Risho]

That not clinging and not avoiding is the true calm beyond calm and stormy. zazen is weird sometimes; sometimes it’s stormy sometimes it’s calm; sometimes it’s serene, and you really, really want to stay there, but it’s just the mind doing it’s thing. There is a point where calm is just calm and stormy is stormy; you sit literally beyond the calm and the stormy (or the dark and stormy lol) which is a deep calm or abiding; it’s that dropping of preferences; letting whatever comes up come up; then again it’s just the scenery of zazen (I think that is a phrase Uchiyama roshi would say); my mind is wily and will always try to latch onto something; gotta keep an eye on it. lol

It’s kind of interesting: zazen teaches you to maybe not believe what you think so much; my mind us always throwing up crap. For example, “I’m bored” or I’m not good enough” or “I’m the best”. None of those are really true.

Apologies for the extra sentences

gassho

risho
-stlah

[Tairin]

do some people actually have quiet moments where there isn't some thought/inner monologue going on in their mind (regardless of Zazen).

Yes occasionally it happens to me during Zazen where I’ll suddenly realize I’ve been sitting still with a quiet mind for some period of time (could be seconds or minutes) It isn’t a forced thing, it just happens occasionally. Of course as soon as I realize it has happened it is gone.

Admittedly it is nice while it occurs but I try to not cling to those moments.

gassho2
Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Jundo]

We should be a little cautious about falling into too much intellectual thinking and mental wheel turning on this.

Thoughts come and go in Zazen, just do not grab them or become entangled, just let them go. Sometimes there are also wide open spaces between thoughts, clear and still, in which nothing really is being thought, maybe just a kind of bare consciousness. Cherish the clear and silent spaces. However, also know that both are fine, and that both thoughts and spaces are the very same boundless, open, unobstructed sky. Know the clear, still and boundless that shines even through the passing thoughts. Risho and Tairin say it so nicely.

Strange images or thoughts sometimes arise in Zazen, like the smiley beer glass. Just let it go too. However, on the philosophical question of whether it is caused or "random," both Buddhism and physics leave room for debate. Oh there may be various intersecting causes (e.g., a beer commercial you saw months before which made you smile, your tiredness, the temperature in the room, what you ate for dinner which is upsetting your stomach, and 1001 other factors), but our human lives are the intersection point of so many factors coming together in a particular place and time in nearly chaotic fashion, emergence of properties very different from their constituent elements (e.g., how hydrogen and oxygen somehow become a "snow storm"), any quantum randomness and just blind luck, that life may be "random" in great aspect, or for all intents and purposes. Did we end up in this life, on this planet, because it is foretold in a "Great Book" somewhere, or are we basically a cosmic hiccup and roll of the dice, or something else?

In any case, here we find ourselves, living and dreaming. Live and dream well. If finding oneself near a stream with a pail in hand, dream or not, fetch water.

It is very simple to realize that one has been dreaming strange dreams when we wake up in the morning. It is much harder for human beings to "awaken" to realize that this ordinary, seemingly solid daytime world is also a dream.

(Sorry, I dreamt more than 3 sentences)

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tai Shi]

I don’t believe in 1/2 image when it comes to Zen. Shikantaza is not hypnogogic nor dream like, nor some state 1/2 between wake and sleep.
Gassho
sat / lah
Tai Shi


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[Tai Shi]

Or is it?
Gassho/ sat/ lah/ Tai Shi


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[Risho]

thank you Jundo for that post/teaching; I’m really diggin’ on that dream theme lately

gassho

risho
-stlah

[Tosei]

Thank you Jundo. There is SO much in your final paragraph, clearly stated.

Gassho,

Peter

ST

[Jinyo]

Thank you Kirk and Kokuu. That is how I also understood this until I read the following from Kosho Uchiyama.

"I’ve mentioned that there are two types of realities, the one being
accidental reality and the other being undeniable reality. When you think
about it, I myself am just an accidental reality. After all, there is nothing
that says I had to be born in twentieth-century Japan. I could just as wellhave been born in ancient Egypt, or Papua New Guinea, or indeed not
have been born at all. In other words, being born in any age or in any
place is a possibility, an accident, just as my being here right now is an
accident.
From that we can say, then, that all the things I see in my world, and
the world itself taking shape as I create it, are also an accident."
"What we call “I” or “ego” arises by chance or accident, so we just let go
instead of grasping thoughts and “I.” When we let go of all our notions
about things, everything becomes really true. This is the fourth
undeniable reality, complete tranquillity, or nehan jakujō. It is also
described as “all things are as they are,” shohō jissō. Therefore, when we let
go of everything, we do not create artificial attachments and connections.
Everything is as it is. Everything exists in one accidental way or another.
This is the present reality of life. It is the reality of that which cannot be
grasped, the reality about which nothing can be said. This very
ungraspability is what is absolutely real about things."

Appologies for this quote going over 3 sentence.

Gassho
Sat

A lot of threads within this thread but I might suggest that it is key not to mix up the relative and absolute (albeit two sides of one coin) and in introducing different levels
Uchiyama implies that tranquility of thought (a mind that is 'quiet' - not attaching to labelling/differentiation) is to be located within the 'Ultimate' and therefore possibly has a transcendent aspect - as the mind is rising above our everyday racing thoughts - whilst not denying that the everyday aspect of mind exists. For myself, I only ever have brief glimpses of tranquility so not at the level of acceptance that that which can not be named 'is what is absolutely real about things'. I live most of life within the 'great doubt' that paradoxically enthuses my practice.

This doubt tells me that it is possibly unwise to underplay the substantiality of the accident that is 'I' as it materializes in our relative world and also to note the western version of 'ego' or 'I' is rather different to that expressed in eastern religions and as a result certain implications seem to get lost in translation. I feel its tenuous to see everything in our relative world as based on artificial connections - and it's really worth investigating why we need to make such a differentiation?

Sorry - too many words but not enough to fully express where I'm going with this.

Gassho

Jinyo

Sat today

[Inshin]

We should be a little cautious about falling into too much intellectual thinking and mental wheel turning on this.

Thoughts come and go in Zazen, just do not grab them or become entangled, just let them go. Sometimes there are also wide open spaces between thoughts, clear and still, in which nothing really is being thought, maybe just a kind of bare consciousness. Cherish the clear and silent spaces. However, also know that both are fine, and that both thoughts and spaces are the very same boundless, open, unobstructed sky. Know the clear, still and boundless that shines even through the passing thoughts. Risho and Tairin say it so nicely.

Strange images or thoughts sometimes arise in Zazen, like the smiley beer glass. Just let it go too. However, on the philosophical question of whether it is caused or "random," both Buddhism and physics leave room for debate. Oh there may be various intersecting causes (e.g., a beer commercial you saw months before which made you smile, your tiredness, the temperature in the room, what you ate for dinner which is upsetting your stomach, and 1001 other factors), but our human lives are the intersection point of so many factors coming together in a particular place and time in nearly chaotic fashion, emergence of properties very different from their constituent elements (e.g., how hydrogen and oxygen somehow become a "snow storm"), any quantum randomness and just blind luck, that life may be "random" in great aspect, or for all intents and purposes. Did we end up in this life, on this planet, because it is foretold in a "Great Book" somewhere, or are we basically a cosmic hiccup and roll of the dice, or something else?

In any case, here we find ourselves, living and dreaming. Live and dream well. If finding oneself near a stream with a pail in hand, dream or not, fetch water.

It is very simple to realize that one has been dreaming strange dreams when we wake up in the morning. It is much harder for human beings to "awaken" to realize that this ordinary, seemingly solid daytime world is also a dream.

(Sorry, I dreamt more than 3 sentences)

Gassho, J

STLah

gassho2

Things are as they are in suchness, form is emptiness, emptiness is form and we know that samsara is a delusion, fixation of something that is impermanent, but How dose it happen, how this dualism/division happens : is it in the process of relating to the form within emptiness?
Two particles with different properties are as they are, but when they start to relate to each other (for whatever reason, chance/predisposition) they change, and it is the same with us.
It is fascinating because it can be experienced in meditation and daily life : in the last year I've noticed massive shift in the way I relate to the world (similar stories to Jundo's flat tire) particularly with people. There's this one person to whom I always felt resentment because she wouldn't and didn't try to change. It is only when I discovered that I can relate to her in a different way she did change, as by miracle and we have the best relationship we ever had. Things are as they are and there are many different ways we can relate to them, in this creative process we dance our samsara. I guess?

Forgive my curious ego going over 3 sentences.

Gassho
Sat

[Kokuu]

hings are as they are in suchness, form is emptiness, emptiness is form and we know that samsara is a delusion, fixation of something that is impermanent, but How dose it happen, how this dualism/division happens : is it in the process of relating to the form within emptiness?

Hi Ania

As I understand it, form is not a delusion itself, but seeing form as fixed and solid rather than dependently-arisen and in flux is the delusion.

In navigating daily life we need to have names for things and people, but suffering occurs once we have mental images of how we expect things to behave that we relate to and we become upset when they don't meet our expectations.

If we meet people and things as they are rather than as we want them to be, life becomes much easier, as I think you have found with your co-worker.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Eva]

Sorry just to clarify, I wasn't specifically asking for Zazen advice, I was just curious to learn more about others experiences. It's just something I've been curious about, do some people actually have quiet moments where there isn't some thought/inner monologue going on in their mind (regardless of Zazen). Anias original post made it sound like that might have been the case (though I could have misread). I've long since accepted that I will never have a quiet mind.

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah

Hello Evan,

I would suggest you look into what you call "a quiet mind". We do not have it, we are it . It's just grossly overlooked in every moment , so our attention holds onto the busy, thought/image filled activity .

In zazen, while seated, we let the attention relax a little bit and this allows us to notice the quiet . It might be just a tiny glimpse before big juicy colorful thought/image . That tiny glimpse of a moment is not to be grabbed either; just to see - here. And should another thought/image arise , you simply return again to that relaxed moment . We are not chasing the quiet, or moments of quietness or trying to freeze the silent "state", we simply allow the gap between one thought and the next expand a little bit, by itself . Just allowing freely, there is nothing you can do or force here .

I get the silence, I get thoughts, I get the returning and I get the dropping off body and mind . It does n't mean anything, either to have or not to have . Just return again and again and again .

Gassho,
eva
sattoday /my sincere apologies going over 3 sentences

[Margherita]

Interesting, how long is not long? Like few seconds, or a few minutes? (Also sleep well!)

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lahAhahah I didn't sleep well but I'm full of energy! Just maybe 30 secs to a minute, then disappear, then it could come back. Who knows, I don't keep count anyway[emoji6]

Gassho,
Mags
ST

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[Onka]

It’s time for me to admit I’m wrong, and as any Zenie junkie it’s possible to get caught up in the rule and not the spirit. Yes, I wrote militiamen comments of more than a total, and a lot more, but I’m now saying tha as Littlejohn author of my first book of contemplation, The 12-step Buddhist, remarks in another way, his long term therapist is a Zen practicing therapist and his editorial advisor is Professor of Buddhist, Zen, studies at Columbia University, we sometimes fail to see need for an eclectic approach to our “whole” lives. Littlejohn suggests that so many of us talk the talk and fail to walk the walk. I became addicted to a particular prescription pain killer while claiming to be sober. Not so drastic but equally as devastating is the student of Zen who eats too much sugar, showers too much, spends into debt unfathomable, drives their car in excess of speed limits, beats children, hits animals, demands love when none is deserved, the list goes on and on. Littlejohn suggests that most of us can benefit from psychotherapy, primary care doctors or psychiatrists, and many are in need with the help of a doctor, psychoactive medications; he says so many are addicted to food, caffein, pop, substances we might not think, and he says all of us can benefit frome wholesome food and exercise. In other words, as a good Buddhist we can strive to be as healthy as possible. As the Literature of recovery states, reaching for a life preserver as “only the drowning” can. This is the state in which even the longtime recovery can bring us to.
Gassho
sat
Tai Shi


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Gassho Onka Sat today

[Jundo]

A lot of threads within this thread but I might suggest that it is key not to mix up the relative and absolute (albeit two sides of one coin) and in introducing different levels

Oh, I figured out something about what Uchiyama meant based on Japanese language ...


"I’ve mentioned that there are two types of realities, the one being accidental reality and the other being undeniable reality. When you think
about it, I myself am just an accidental reality. After all, there is nothing that says I had to be born in twentieth-century Japan. I could just as well have been born in ancient Egypt, or Papua New Guinea, or indeed not have been born at all. In other words, being born in any age or in any place is a possibility, an accident, just as my being here right now is an accident.

From that we can say, then, that all the things I see in my world, and the world itself taking shape as I create it, are also an accident." ... [As to "undeniable reality"] It is also described as “all things are as they are,” shohō jissō. Therefore, when we let go of everything, we do not create artificial attachments and connections. Everything is as it is. ... It is the reality of that which cannot be grasped, the reality about which nothing can be said. This very ungraspability is what is absolutely real about things."


Uchiyama does not mean "accidental" as necessarily "random" or "an accident," because the meaning of 事故 (Jiko) in Japanese can also mean just "what happens due to circumstances." So, he means events that result due to various circumstances and causes coming together, whether due to identifiable causes or arbitrarily ... the "stuff that happens" in this world for various or whatever reasons.

In the "absolute" view that Jinyo mention, we drop all idea of "separate things that happen," and there is only wholeness. However, we can also see every single phenomenon ... every thing, person or moment ... as a pristine world until itself, perfectly just what it is, free of conceptions of any other thing or cause, as if the whole universe pours into that one thing and there is nothing else in the whole universe. Thus, as Kokuu says ...



As I understand it, form is not a delusion itself, but seeing form as fixed and solid rather than dependently-arisen and in flux is the delusion.

The appearances of separate things, persons, moments is a delusion, and all are swept away is wholeness AND YET, FROM THE OTHER PERSPECTIVE, the whole universe totally pours into each, so each thing, person, moment is precious and as real as real can be!

I believe that Uchiyama is speaking of seeing this world in all such ways.

Gassho, J
Sat todayLAH

[Jundo]

gassho2

Things are as they are in suchness, form is emptiness, emptiness is form and we know that samsara is a delusion, fixation of something that is impermanent, but How dose it happen, how this dualism/division happens : is it in the process of relating to the form within emptiness?

Oh, the human mind cuts the world up between the ears into things, names, categories, functions from our subjective perspective that help us navigate the world. As I like to say, there are probably some atoms "out there" in a certain configuration, but only our human minds see and name "a chair" because we have human butts that need to sit! A space creature without a butt would not see "a chair," and my cat does not see "a chair," only only surface to sleep on. :)



I've noticed massive shift in the way I relate to the world (similar stories to Jundo's flat tire) particularly with people. There's this one person to whom I always felt resentment because she wouldn't and didn't try to change. It is only when I discovered that I can relate to her in a different way she did change, as by miracle and we have the best relationship we ever had. Things are as they are and there are many different ways we can relate to them, in this creative process we dance our samsara. I guess?


Yes, but still, the change in my attitude do not fix the tire ... I still needed to get dirty, get the jack and do that. Our change in attitude sometimes changes the people, but sometimes not (I myself dealt with two difficult friends here in Japan yesterday that I cannot change them no matter my attitude, so I must keep some distance). However, we do have some ability to change how we react to the difficult situations between our ears.

One more example: When I had my cancer, I was pretty miserable and lonely one day in the hospital bed. Then, I decided to "Shikantaza" the experience and feel equanimity. Then, I even tried to feel "at home" in my bed, as if it was the best place in the world to be. I even experimented with "toggling" the switch between all three settings ... and I could! .... miserable ... at peace ... happy ... miserable ... at peace ... happy ... miserable ... at peace ... happy ...

It did not change the objective situation one bit, but it changed everything!!

(Sorry, ran long but I am happy about it!) :)

Gassho, J

STLah

[Inshin]

Oh, I figured out something about what Uchiyama meant based on Japanese language ...



Uchiyama does not mean "accidental" as necessarily "random" or "an accident," because the meaning of 事故 (Jiko) in Japanese can also mean just "what happens due to circumstances." So, he means events that result due to various circumstances and causes coming together, whether due to identifiable causes or arbitrarily ... the "stuff that happens" in this world for various or whatever reasons.

In the "absolute" view that Jinyo mention, we drop all idea of "separate things that happen," and there is only wholeness. However, we can also see every single phenomenon ... every thing, person or moment ... as a pristine world until itself, perfectly just what it is, free of conceptions of any other thing or cause, as if the whole universe pours into that one thing and there is nothing else in the whole universe. Thus, as Kokuu says ...



The appearances of separate things, persons, moments is a delusion, and all are swept away is wholeness AND YET, FROM THE OTHER PERSPECTIVE, the whole universe totally pours into each, so each thing, person, moment is precious and as real as real can be!

I believe that Uchiyama is speaking of seeing this world in all such ways.

Gassho, J
Sat todayLAH

gassho2

Thank you for claryfing this lost in translation passage of text that I quoted.

Gassho
Sat

[Jinyo]

Yes, but still, the change in my attitude do not fix the tire ... I still needed to get dirty, get the jack and do that. Our change in attitude sometimes changes the people, but sometimes not (I myself dealt with two difficult friends here in Japan yesterday that I cannot change them no matter my attitude, so I must keep some distance). However, we do have some ability to change how we react to the difficult situations between our ears.

One more example: When I had my cancer, I was pretty miserable and lonely one day in the hospital bed. Then, I decided to "Shikantaza" the experience and feel equanimity. Then, I even tried to feel "at home" in my bed, as if it was the best place in the world to be. I even experimented with "toggling" the switch between all three settings ... and I could! .... miserable ... at peace ... happy ... miserable ... at peace ... happy ... miserable ... at peace ... happy ...

It did not change the objective situation one bit, but it changed everything!!

Thank you Jundo - I think this teaching is key really. 'Toggling the switch' is a great metaphor that can really play out in the relative world as regards how we respond to challenges. There's some interesting work in Neuroscience that's applying practical methods to how we can work on our responses (Stephen Porges - Polyvagal theory) that fits with this.

Gassho

Jinyo

Sat today

[Tai Shi]

Hi Ania, thank you for this clarification. For nearly a year when I was 19 I lived and worked in Europe (Germany) where beer is taken with two meals a day from the time when clean water was scarce. So, the custom remains.
Gassho
sat / lah
Tai Shi


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[Inshin]

Yes, but still, the change in my attitude do not fix the tire ... I still needed to get dirty, get the jack and do that. Our change in attitude sometimes changes the people, but sometimes not (I myself dealt with two difficult friends here in Japan yesterday that I cannot change them no matter my attitude, so I must keep some distance). However, we do have some ability to change how we react to the difficult situations between our ears.

One more example: When I had my cancer, I was pretty miserable and lonely one day in the hospital bed. Then, I decided to "Shikantaza" the experience and feel equanimity. Then, I even dried to feel "at home" in my bed, as if it was the best place in the world to be. I even experimented with "toggling" the switch between all three settings ... and I could! .... miserable ... at peace ... happy ... miserable ... at peace ... happy ... miserable ... at peace ... happy ...

It did not change the objective situation one bit, but it changed everything!!

Thank you Jundo - I think this teaching is key really. 'Toggling the switch' is a great metaphor that can really play out in the relative world as regards how we respond to challenges. There's some interesting work in Neuroscience that's applying practical methods to how we can work on our responses (Stephen Porges - Polyvagal theory) that fits with this.

Gassho

Jinyo

Sat today

Thank you Jinyo for mentioning this, I'll check it out! As a new member of this Sangha and a newbie to Zen I find all of the members very inspiring, there's so much intersting stuff to find here! I find it fascinating to read scientific discoveries/theories that correlate with Dharma. I have just came across David Bohm "Wholeness and the implicate order" and his other two books with J. Krishnamurti "The end of time" and "The limits of Thought". Although tempted to dip into reading, I'm keeping it for after Ango : Shikantanza first - my head is already full of ideas and "discoveries".
Gassho
Sat

[Inshin]

Hi Ania, thank you for this clarification. For nearly a year when I was 19 I lived and worked in Europe (Germany) where beer is taken with two meals a day from the time when clean water was scarce. Try he custom remains.
Gassho
sat / lah
Tai Shi


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That's interesting! Now I know where the saying "drink beer save water" comes from [smile]
I didn't intend a deeper meaning in the beer glass, I've mentioned it just as an example, it could have been anything else seemingly random!
Gassho
Sat

[gaurdianaq]

gassho2

Things are as they are in suchness, form is emptiness, emptiness is form and we know that samsara is a delusion, fixation of something that is impermanent, but How dose it happen, how this dualism/division happens : is it in the process of relating to the form within emptiness?
Gassho
Sat

There is a really interesting book I read recently that talks about this, it's called "No Self, No Problem" https://www.amazon.ca/No-Self-Problem-Neuropsychology-Catching-ebook/dp/B07PLRZVTT/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2SPLQ59E9AART&dchild=1&keywords=no+self+no+problem&qid=1599757928&sprefix=no+self%2Caps%2C167&sr=8-1

One of the things the book mentions is the differences between the left and right brain (and how the left brain, which is associated with language processing, creates all these distinctions that separates this from that, me from you). The book covers some interesting cases where they talk about split brain patients (peoples who's left and right brains have been disconnected and can't communicate with each other), and how the left brain will completely ignore reality to come up with reasons that make sense. (They showed the right brain in these patients a set of instructions, that said laugh) and then asked the left brain why they laughed and it came up with a completely unrelated reason without hesitation.

To clarify, the left brain controls the right eye, and the right brain controls the left eye, so they could distinguish between these two by having someone close one eye so that only the right or left brain would process the image, and the left brain is responsible for processing language, so vocal questions would get processed by the left brain. At least, assuming my understanding is correct. Normally the two sides of the brain communicate with each other, but these split brain patients offered a unique opportunity to study the different sides of the brain.

Apologies for going over 3 sentences.

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah :)

[gaurdianaq]

Also thank you Ania for the book inspirations (David Bohm, Steven Porges) both sound fascinating!

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Ryumon]

The right/left brain stuff has been debunked. There are some brain processes that are lateralized, but not many.


https://www.britannica.com/story/are-there-really-right-brained-and-left-brained-people

Gassho,

Kirk

Sat

[Jinyo]

Thank you Jinyo for mentioning this, I'll check it out! As a new member of this Sangha and a newbie to Zen I find all of the members very inspiring, there's so much intersting stuff to find here! I find it fascinating to read scientific discoveries/theories that correlate with Dharma. I have just came across David Bohm "Wholeness and the implicate order" and his other two books with J. Krishnamurti "The end of time" and "The limits of Thought". Although tempted to dip into reading, I'm keeping it for after Ango : Shikantanza first - my head is already full of ideas and "discoveries".
Gassho
Sat

Hello Ania,
I came across the David Bohm/Krishnamurti connection recently too. It is interesting and I'd like to follow up some time. The trouble is there's so much amazing reading/thoughts/ideas and I often get swamped!!

Gassho

Sat Today

[gaurdianaq]

The right/left brain stuff has been debunked. There are some brain processes that are lateralized, but not many.


https://www.britannica.com/story/are-there-really-right-brained-and-left-brained-people

Gassho,

Kirk

Sat

That's not what I was referring to, and in fact that article refers to some of the same science the book I'm talking about references. That article is referring to the idea that you can be "right brained or left brained" and that one side associates with creativity and the other with logical thinking, which yes has been debunked. To quote the article you shared
Generally, the right hemisphere of the brain was found to be more proficient at spatial tasks, while the left side of the brain was found to be the center of language and problem-solving.

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Jinyo]

There is a really interesting book I read recently that talks about this, it's called "No Self, No Problem" https://www.amazon.ca/No-Self-Problem-Neuropsychology-Catching-ebook/dp/B07PLRZVTT/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2SPLQ59E9AART&dchild=1&keywords=no+self+no+problem&qid=1599757928&sprefix=no+self%2Caps%2C167&sr=8-1

One of the things the book mentions is the differences between the left and right brain (and how the left brain, which is associated with language processing, creates all these distinctions that separates this from that, me from you). The book covers some interesting cases where they talk about split brain patients (peoples who's left and right brains have been disconnected and can't communicate with each other), and how the left brain will completely ignore reality to come up with reasons that make sense. (They showed the right brain in these patients a set of instructions, that said laugh) and then asked the left brain why they laughed and it came up with a completely unrelated reason without hesitation.

To clarify, the left brain controls the right eye, and the right brain controls the left eye, so they could distinguish between these two by having someone close one eye so that only the right or left brain would process the image, and the left brain is responsible for processing language, so vocal questions would get processed by the left brain. At least, assuming my understanding is correct. Normally the two sides of the brain communicate with each other, but these split brain patients offered a unique opportunity to study the different sides of the brain.

Apologies for going over 3 sentences.

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah :)

You might be interested in Iain McGilchrist's 'The Master and His Emissary - The Divided Brain and the Making of the Western World'. McGilchrist is a psychiatrist, philosopher and scientist - a remarkable book that's taking me a long time to read as incredible amount of research/thought gone into it and it's quite long! Well worth a read though.

Gassho

Jinyo

Sat Today

[gaurdianaq]

You might be interested in Iain McGilchrist's 'The Master and His Emissary - The Divided Brain and the Making of the Western World'. McGilchrist is a psychiatrist, philosopher and scientist - a remarkable book that's taking me a long time to read as incredible amount of research/thought gone into it and it's quite long! Well worth a read though.

Gassho

Jinyo

Sat Today

Sounds right up my alley, I'll look them up. Thanks!

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Risho]

oo both those books sound interesting - thank you Jinyo and Evan

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Inshin]

"Form is Emptiness
Emptiness is Form" (form is form, emptiness is emptiness) - is samsara created by RELATING to form whithin emptiness?


Could the following be an answer to my question ? :

Shakyamuni Buddha says, “The true Dharma Body of the Buddha Is like empty space. Responding to things, it manifests its form. It is like the moon in water.” - from Realising Genjokoan by Okumura. Quote originates from Konkōmyōkyō (Sutra of Golden Radiance).

When it comes to practice and daily life there is an “empty space” before a thought and a reaction to something arises. I find that there’s a great freedom in that space.

Gassho
Sat

[Kokuu]

When it comes to practice and daily life there is an “empty space” before a thought and a reaction to something arises. I find that there’s a great freedom in that space.

Hi Ania

There is indeed freedom in that space.

However, I would also say that form is fine too. The problem is when we start to compare forms to our ideas of how forms should be, and feeling attachment or aversion, rather than relating to things just as they are and seeing them as what Dōgen calls flowers in space (kuge).

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Inshin]

Hi Ania

There is indeed freedom in that space.

However, I would also say that form is fine too. The problem is when we start to compare forms to our ideas of how forms should be, and feeling attachment or aversion, rather than relating to things just as they are and seeing them as what Dōgen calls flowers in space (kuge).

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-
gassho2
Big part of my practice is to observe and investigate the appearance of attachments and aversion.


relating to things just as they are and seeing them as what Dōgen calls flowers in space (kuge).

Don't we create duality when we relate to things just as they are, in any way even if it's not caused by attachment or aversion?

Gassho
Sat

[Kokuu]

Big part of my practice is to observe and investigate the appearance of attachments and aversion.

How do you find that?



Don't we create duality when we relate to things just as they are, in any way even if it's not caused by attachment or aversion?

The relative world is dualistic, and in everyday life we relate in terms of self and other. However, within that, it is possible to see the greater wholeness in which everything is just as it is, without separation.

However, I must say I mostly experience that on the cushion or in moments of stillness during the day when I remind myself that how things appear is not all there is. Letting all things be as they are, there is just this rather than this and that and the other.

Apologies for going long.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Inshin]

How do you find that?





It is a bit like bringing zazen quality to daily situations: noticing the desire to buy something arising, let it be let it go, not buy anything. Noticing anger arising, letting it be, let it go, making a cup of tea instead of engaging in an argument, etc. Even if decided to have an argument it is a conscious choice rather than a habitual reaction, which significantly changes the perspective .

Gassho
Sat

[Kokuu]

It is a bit like bringing zazen quality to daily situations: noticing the desire to buy something arising, let it be let it go, not buy anything. Noticing anger arising, letting it be, let it go, making a cup of tea instead of engaging in an argument, etc. Even if decided to have an argument it is a conscious choice rather than a habitual reaction, which significantly changes the perspective .

gassho2

Yes, giving those habitual reactions more space can definitely free us from acting blindly. The form is there but so is the space.

Maybe that is what you were saying from the beginning?

[Tai Shi]

Someday, Kokuu, you will be a very good priest. Stick with the training you are worth it! I know you know Gary Snyder back words AND forwards. So what if I briefly said . Do you know my mentor?” “ who is that?” “ Bill Hotchkiss” “Yes” and he walked briskly by me guarded by two Full Professors. I got to hear a reading and I forgot all that I heard! I was about one year sober and HE was the Zen monk I knew nothing about. You have have taught me, your friend just a guy!
Gassho
sat: lah
Tai shi


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