Practice

[StoBird]

In this divisive era of Facebook bickering and anger, I prefer the Zen approach with the onus on “practice” instead of all that bickering and anger, as defined as:

“To learn the teachings, and to engage in actions to embody and master those teachings, including especially the sitting of Zazen, and to put all into practice in life.”

I sit in Zazen, then I get up, take this into the world as a genuine practice and act in a gentle, caring way towards everything and everyone.

There is one insight I have learned from sitting and it is that I have views, opinions, feelings and thoughts, some of them overwhelming sometimes and I want to convey to others that those views, opinions, feelings and thoughts don’t necessarily matter when it comes to practice HERE AND NOW if I’m not gentle, peaceful and caring towards everything and everyone and even then, very few of them matter or are even believed by me or let alone, have a basis in reality, as comedian Marc Moran jokes “all of us at any one time are only really sure about, maybe, five things at most”

Gassho,
Tom
Sat/Lah

[Jundo]

gassho2

( ... of course, only works until we all start bickering about what "Practice" is! Tee-hee :p )

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tairin]

Thank you for your insight Tom. I agree with the onus on practice - Sitting Zazen and following the Precepts to the best our abilities - over intellectual noodling and debate.

gassho2
Tairin
Sat today and lah

[StoBird]

gassho2

( ... of course, only works until we all start bickering about what "Practice" is! Tee-hee :p )

Gassho, J

STLah

How many bodhisattva’s can dance on a the tip of a pin? This is not a Koan, the answer is 108,000 and I will fight anyone that disagrees![morehappy]

Seriously, I’m now convinced that Buddhism in its many forms (when done right and the right form of right can be endlessly debated) is a religion of action, not passive speculation like so many make it out to be. It took me a looooong time to realize that and took even longer to stop trying to fix what wasn’t broken and instead trust the wholeness and “becoming nagas/serpents, shedding our hardened skins so we can endlessly play in an open field of being“ as Tim Burkett put it on FB this morning.

Gassho,
Tom
Sat/Lah

[Seikan]

Seriously, I’m now convinced that Buddhism in its many forms (when done right and the right form of right can be endlessly debated) is a religion of action, not passive speculation like so many make it out to be.

Agreed. I fell into the latter camp for years when I was younger (80% philosophizing and maybe 20% practice at best), but I have done a 180 turn over the years. Formal study still holds an important place as part of my practice, but my focus is more on "actionable non-action" in daily life (Zazen, following the precepts, creative/artistic practices, etc.)

Gassho,
Rob

-stlah-


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[StoBird]

One thing almost turned me off of Soto Zen practice and I think it’s important to address: There is an air of “my practice is better than yours” superiority that a beginner notices when she starts to listen to the teacher first talk about Shikantaza practice. I know I did. I thought it was dogma. This is not intended but comes across for some confusing reasons:

Shikantaza takes trust/faith in something that at first seems too simple. "Fake it till you make it" by trusting the world is "One bright pearl" etc... Yeah right, thats too simple.

It doesn’t matter to anyone who practices what, as long as it’s understood that in Soto Zen, Shikantaza contains all of life, including other religious practices but to say other practices can be brought to Shikantaza and somehow improve Shikantaza is to misunderstand what Shikantaza is.

It’s not that Shikantaza is better than other practices and other practices don’t matter, it’s that all things are held within Shikantaza. The same notion that everything is held within practice is probably true of Dzogchen, Advaita Vedanta or Non-Dual awareness. Is shikantaza better? No but its simpler.

The difference is that we trust that Shikantaza is the front gate, and in my personal experience the other goal based methods of seeing through the "self" are needlessly complicated and to me are more or less like banging my head on the outside wall to get in the kitchen, if the kitchen is just sitting with the radical equanimity that trusts all things are wholeness and competeness, beyond concepts, without a need to get anything etc..

Whole and complete, a Buddha, thus it is easy to say no to more greed, anger and ignorance and help out the world a little better, and isn’t that what Buddhism’s all about at the end of the day?

I hope I am right in this, and if I am it may save some people some frustration, sorry for more than three sentences, I think this misunderstanding is important to clear up gassho1

Gassho,
Tom
Sat/Lah

[Seikan]

I tend to agree that the Soto way (and even Zen, in general) can be a bit off-putting to newcomers depending on how they are first introduced to it. I felt a bit of that early on, yet there was always something about the radical simplicity/directness of Shikantaza that has pulled me back continuously. Luckily, Treeleaf is one of the most welcoming of all Sanghas that I have ever encountered. :)

Having studied and practiced in other forms of Buddhism, I do feel that ultimately, they all lead to the same mountain top. Each of us simply needs to take the most suitable path for our temperament/ability.

For example, the practices of counting breaths or "noting" thoughts/sensations as they arise always turned me off as it felt like I was only adding to the mental noise in my head, yet these can be very powerful forms of practice for many, and I respect that. Others may get more from devotional/loving kindness practices. It's no different from how some of us have different dietary needs in order to remain healthy. The challenge is often to find the right "diet" to being with.

Gassho,
Rob

-stlah-
& struggled to use only three sentences above...
gassho2




Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[gaurdianaq]

Seriously, I’m now convinced that Buddhism in its many forms (when done right and the right form of right can be endlessly debated) is a religion of action, not passive speculation like so many make it out to be. It took me a looooong time to realize that and took even longer to stop trying to fix what wasn’t broken and instead trust the wholeness and “becoming nagas/serpents, shedding our hardened skins so we can endlessly play in an open field of being“ as Tim Burkett put it on FB this morning.

Gassho,
Tom
Sat/Lah

I've recently come to a similar conclusion, not even just about Buddhism, but many other religious views/practices. At least when looked at in a certain way, been reading Tim Langdells Christ Way, Buddha Way and I've realized a lot of the teachings of Jesus can be viewed similarly if you don't try to put Jesus on some pedestal that makes him special/unique from every one else.



1. Shikantaza takes a tremendous amount of trust/faith to “fake it till you make it.“


One of the things that helped me with this, was the fact that it didn't feel like Soto Zen was making any grand promises. The more a religion/practice tries to promise me great results if I follow their way, the more I feel skeptical of it.

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah

[StoBird]

I tend to agree that the Soto way (and even Zen, in general) can be a bit off-putting to newcomers depending on how they are first introduced to it. I felt a bit of that early on, yet there was always something about the radical simplicity/directness of Shikantaza that has pulled me back continuously. Luckily, Treeleaf is one of the most welcoming of all Sanghas that I have ever encountered. :)

Having studied and practiced in other forms of Buddhism, I do feel that ultimately, they all lead to the same mountain top. Each of us simply needs to take the most suitable path for our temperament/ability.

For example, the practices of counting breaths or "noting" thoughts/sensations as they arise always turned me off as it felt like I was only adding to the mental noise in my head, yet these can be very powerful forms of practice for many, and I respect that. Others may get more from devotional/loving kindness practices. It's no different from how some of us have different dietary needs in order to remain healthy. The challenge is often to find the right "diet" to being with.

Gassho,
Rob

-stlah-
& struggled to use only three sentences above...
gassho2



Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

gassho1 Maybe I'm not saying things right. Yes, we must choose our path and one path isn't better than another. My post was me making sense of what comes across as Soto Zen arrogance, when its nothing like that once Soto Zen Shikantaza is understood. Aspects of Soto Zen Shikantaza can benefit other meditation or spiritual practices, other practices can be praticed along side Soto Zen Shikantaza (despite what Dogen says in Bendowa). Anyone can practice however they want, obviously, but there is a line seperating what Soto Zen Shikantaza Zazen is and isn't, and I am of the mind that once you know what Soto Zen Shikantaza is, then there really is no problem or confusion. To me, Its more like why would someone other than Elf mix sugar with spaghetti once you know spaghetti tastes better without sugar?

Gassho,
Tom
Sat/Lah

[Risho]

anyone who adds sugar to marinara or pizza sauce is violating most of my precepts!!! lol

gassho

rish
-stlah

[Seikan]

...there is a line seperating what Soto Zen Shikantaza Zazen is and isn't, and I am of the mind that once you know what Soto Zen Shikantaza is, then there really is no problem or confusion.


Agreed. Once we have had a proper taste of Shikantaza, most intellectual misunderstandings about it begin to dissolve. How fast they dissolve is another matter altogether. :)

Gassho,
Rob

-stlah-


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[Jundo]

I think it is fine to have opinions as a Zen practitioner, to engage in some philosophizing, to have ideas to debate ... so long as one holds such opinions and ideas lightly, knows how to express them civilly and without anger or violence ... and also knows how to drop all opinions, philosophizing and debate on the sitting cushion.

I also think that Shikantaza is the best of all practices in the universe, bar none, and the only practice in this universe, bar none ... during the time of sitting, and for those for whom it is the right practice. While I think that many, many people can benefit from the insights of Shikantaza (maybe even most people in some way), I think it is not the right way for all people, and could be wrong for some people who will find their right way a different way.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Washin]

Thank you Tom. Well said gassho2

Gassho,
Washin
st-lah

[StoBird]

I think it is fine to have opinions as a Zen practitioner, to engage in some philosophizing, to have ideas to debate ... so long as one holds such opinions and ideas lightly, knows how to express them civilly and without anger or violence ... and also knows how to drop all opinions, philosophizing and debate on the sitting cushion.

I also think that Shikantaza is the best of all practices in the universe, bar none, and the only practice in this universe, bar none ... during the time of sitting, and for those for whom it is the right practice. While I think that many, many people can benefit from the insights of Shikantaza (maybe even most people in some way), I think it is not the right way for all people, and could be wrong for some people who will find their right way a different way.

Gassho, J

STLah

Ah this greatly clarifies/obviates the point that I was struggling to make in response to squeamishness I had to the perceived arrogance of Shikantaza practitioners. gassho1 I forget that we can have two opposing views at the same time. This is the final word and I will be quiet now for fear that I will say more than is needed again.

Gassho,
Tom
Sat/Lah

[A.J.]

I think it is fine to have opinions as a Zen practitioner, to engage in some philosophizing, to have ideas to debate ... so long as one holds such opinions and ideas lightly, knows how to express them civilly and without anger or violence ... and also knows how to drop all opinions, philosophizing and debate on the sitting cushion.

I also think that Shikantaza is the best of all practices in the universe, bar none, and the only practice in this universe, bar none ... during the time of sitting, and for those for whom it is the right practice. While I think that many, many people can benefit from the insights of Shikantaza (maybe even most people in some way), I think it is not the right way for all people, and could be wrong for some people who will find their right way a different way.

Gassho, J

STLah

This.

Well, I can go all the way with the first paragraph at least. Regarding the second, is it not possible for Zen people to become Shikantaza thumpers making it into the final word on everything in a way that betrays a lack of sincere inquiry through artificial finality in the same way that some Christians become Bible thumpers resorting to a standard text as the answer for everything rather than doing any free thinking themselves?

I don't know that you're doing this per se, yet this possibility provides one of my hesitations for taking up the kind of only-Shikantaza approach I see in some. In the meanwhile when I sit just-sitting I will do so without making so much of it.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Kyōsen]

I also think that Shikantaza is the best of all practices in the universe, bar none, and the only practice in this universe, bar none ... during the time of sitting, and for those for whom it is the right practice.
After reading about what you think is missing from Shikantaza explanations (https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15111-WHAT-s-OFTEN-MISSING-in-SHIKANTAZA-EXPLANATIONS) and letting that guide my sitting, I find myself agreeing with this statement. Although, I also engage in nembutsu too, haha!

Gassho
Kyōsen
Sat|LAH

[Jundo]

... is it not possible for Zen people to become Shikantaza thumpers making it into the final word on everything in a way that betrays a lack of sincere inquiry through artificial finality in the same way that some Christians become Bible thumpers resorting to a standard text as the answer for everything rather than doing any free thinking themselves?



I could do that about the NY Yankees or tuna fish if a fanatic about it. However, trying to remember, I don't think that I have ever heard any teacher do what you say about Shikantaza, not ever that I can recall: No Genzo-thumpers.

It is an amazing practice, however, and I do believe that so may people could benefit from it "dropping of judgments, equanimious, sitting in total completion, nothing more to do or place to go" nature in this constantly judging, dissatisfied, feeling lack, endless things to do and places to go to "finally get there" world. And, during the time of sitting, there is no other practice, nothing more in need of doing.

Gassho, J

STLah

(Sorry, a little long)

[Jundo]

I will add that it is possible to take up other practices, such as Metta or Tonglen for the softening of the heart, praying to Jesus or nembutsu of Amida for those so inclined, some daily mindfulness of our mental states etc.

However, Shikantaza does not mix well with certain kinds of meditation practices that are very goal oriented or attaining unusual states, deep concentration or bliss, intense Kensho experiences etc. That is rather at cross purposes, so I do not recommend that.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

I could do that about the NY Yankees or tuna fish if a fanatic about it. However, trying to remember, I don't think that I have ever heard any teacher do what you say about Shikantaza, not ever that I can recall: No Genzo-thumpers.

It is an amazing practice, however, and I do believe that so may people could benefit from it "dropping of judgments, equanimious, sitting in total completion, nothing more to do or place to go" nature in this constantly judging, dissatisfied, feeling lack, endless things to do and places to go to "finally get there" world. And, during the time of sitting, there is no other practice, nothing more in need of doing.

Gassho, J

STLah

(Sorry, a little long)

Making anything the end-all, be-all and best-of-all seems by definition to be a bit fanatical.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

Making anything the end-all, be-all and best-of-all seems by definition to be a bit fanatical.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

But I ask you, who is doing that, any example? Never heard that in the Soto Zen world that I can recall (although I am sure there is somebody, somewhere like that if we dig around, but it would still be rare).

When we are sitting, however, during the timeless time of sitting with no before or after the time of sitting, Zazen is the Alpha and Omega, which is a bit different from what you describe I believe.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

Dogen did say this kind of thing in Bendowa, but I think it is a bit of salesmanship and ... even then ... he never says that other ways are not good too (it is exclusively what he recommends as the front, not the exclusive gate or the gate that others might recommend).



Question 1: We have now heard that the merit of zazen is lofty and great. But an ignorant person may be doubtful and say, “There are many gates for buddha dharma. Why do you recommend zazen exclusively?”

Answer: Because this is the front gate for buddha dharma.

Question 2: Why do you regard zazen alone as the front gate?

Answer: The great master Shakyamuni authentically transmitted this splendid method of attaining the way and all buddha tathagatas of the past, future, and present attain the way by practicing zazen. For this reason it has been transmitted as the front gate. Furthermore, all ancestors in India and China attained the way by practicing zazen. Thus, I now teach this front gate to human beings and devas.

...

His lack of exclusivity is show clearly here ...


Question 4: The Lotus School and the Avatamsaka School, which have been transmitted to Japan, both expound the ultimate of Mahayana teaching. Furthermore, the teaching of the Mantra [Shingon] School was directly transmitted by Vairochana Tathagata to Vajrasattva, and its lineage from teacher to disciple since then has not been interupted. This teaching expounds “Mind itself is buddha,” and “Everyone’s mind becomes buddha.” They also advocate the authentic enlightenment of the Five Buddhas within one sitting, instead of practice through many eons. It is regarded as the supreme buddha dharma. What extraordinary aspect of the practice you mention makes you recommend it, disregarding the practice of other schools?

Answer: You should know that in the buddha’s house we do not discuss superiority or inferiority of the teaching; nor do we concern ourselves with the depth or shallowness of the dharma, but only with the genuineness of practice.

There are those who, attracted by grass, flowers, mountains, and waters, flow into the buddha way; and there are those who, grasping soil, rocks, sand, and pebbles, uphold the buddha’s seal. Although the boundless words of the Buddha permeate myriad things, the turning of the great dharma wheel is contained inside a single particle of dust. In this sense, the line “Mind itself is buddha” is the moon reflected on water, and the teaching, “Sitting itself is becoming buddha” is a reflection in the mirror. Do not be concerned with the splendor of the words. By showing the buddha ancestors’ excellent way of direct transmission, I am just recommending the practice of the immediate realization of enlightenment, hoping that you will become a true practitioner of the way.

...


Question 6: Why, among the four bodily presences taught in the buddha’s house, do you emphasize sitting alone, recommend Zen samadhi, and expound entry into realization?

Answer: It is impossible to know completely the methods by which all buddhas from the past practiced and entered realization, one after another. It is hard to know, but if you look into it, all buddhas are engaged in zazen as the source of realization. Don’t look for anything else.

https://villagezendo.org/bendowa-on-the-endeavor-of-the-way/

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

Dogen did say this kind of thing in Bendowa, but I think it is a bit of salesmanship and ... even then ... he never says that other ways are not good too (it is exclusively what he recommends as the front, not the exclusive gate or the gate that others might recommend).




His lack of exclusivity is show clearly here ...



Gassho, J

STLah

I was thinking it sounds a little fanatical all the way back to Dogen but if we take his more fanatical sounding statements as salesmanship then whatevs I suppose.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

I was thinking it sounds a little fanatical all the way back to Dogen but if we take his more fanatical sounding statements as salesmanship then whatevs I suppose.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

Well, "salesmanship" may be the wrong word, because Dogen and many others did/do honestly believe the Shikantaza is truly truly special and wonderful as a practice (and it is!), so not like a salesman trying to sell a used car, pulliing the wool over somebody's eyes.

But like anyone, even the Buddha (who insisted that the Buddha way is the best way ... "Buddha or Bust!" ... "Buddha Way or the Highway!" :encouragement: ... ), folks naturally believe that their favorite way is great or best. And Soto Zen is a pretty glorious way, yes indeed.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

Well, "salesmanship" may be the wrong word, because Dogen and many others did/do honestly believe the Shikantaza is truly truly special and wonderful as a practice (and it is!), so not like a salesman trying to sell a used car, pulliing the wool over somebody's eyes.

But like anyone, even the Buddha (who insisted that the Buddha way is the best way ... "Buddha or Bust!" ... "Buddha Way or the Highway!" :encouragement: ... ), folks naturally believe that their favorite way is great or best. And Soto Zen is a pretty glorious way, yes indeed.

Gassho, J

STLah

I didn't think you meant like selling a used car so much as giving the best pitch for his way as he could. Even an honest salesman might sound a little fanatical when they try so hard to emphasize their product.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

I didn't think you meant like selling a used car so much as giving the best pitch for his way as he could. Even an honest salesman might sound a little fanatical when they try so hard to emphasize their product.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

Hah. Perhaps we might say that Shikantaza is a "non-product," for there is nothing to produce or destroy, nothing to sell and nothing to obtain, no price on the priceless, no loss and no gain of the bottom line. It is all colors and all shapes and, further, as a vehicle, it is neither used nor new for beyond all time, nor is there anywhere to go even as we keep driving forward. Shikantaza and all vehicles are the one vehicle. gassho2



one vehicle ［一乗］ ( ekayāna;  ichijō): Also, single vehicle, Buddha vehicle, one Buddha vehicle, one vehicle of Buddhahood, or supreme vehicle. The teaching that leads all people to Buddhahood. It is taught in the Flower Garland Sutra and other Mahayana sutras, but the Lotus Sutra places the greatest emphasis on it. The Buddha’s teaching is compared to a vehicle ( yāna) that carries one to a particular state of enlightenment. In accordance with people’s capacities, the pre-Lotus Sutra teachings expound and emphasize the voice-hearer vehicle (shrāvaka-yāna), which leads one to the state of arhat; the cause-awakened one vehicle (pratyekabuddha-yāna), which leads one to the state of pratyekabuddha; and the bodhisattva vehicle (bodhisattva-yāna), which after many kalpas of practice leads one to Buddhahood. The voice-hearer vehicle and the cause-awakened one vehicle are together termed the two vehicles, and with the addition of the bodhisattva vehicle, the three vehicles.

The Lotus Sutra teaches that these three vehicles are not ends in themselves but means to lead people to the one vehicle, which unifies and refines the three vehicle teachings. The “Expedient Means” (second) chapter of the sutra says that the Buddhas employ only a single vehicle to preach the Law to living beings. It also says that the Buddhas, utilizing the power of expedient means, divide the one vehicle and preach as though it were three. The chapter again says that there is only one vehicle in all the Buddha lands throughout the universe, and the Buddha’s sole purpose is to lead all beings to Buddhahood. The T’ien-t’ai school called this the “replacement of the three vehicles with the one vehicle.” In the Lotus Sutra, the term one vehicle is synonymous with the Buddha’s true teaching.

https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/dic/Content/O/28

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

Hah. Perhaps we might say that Shikantaza is a "non-product," for there is nothing to produce or destroy, nothing to sell and nothing to obtain, no price on the priceless, no loss and no gain of the bottom line. It is all colors and all shapes and, further, as a vehicle, it is neither used nor new for beyond all time, nor is there anywhere to go even as we keep driving forward. Shikantaza and all vehicles are the one vehicle. gassho2



https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/dic/Content/O/28

Gassho, J

STLah

I dunno, I mean, Dogen seems to make statements strongly condemning what he judges as Buddhist heresy (even Zen heresy) which is a mark of fanaticism. He seems very preoccupied with the idea that his version is the right one. Perhaps one buys into the idea that one isn't being pitched anything.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

I dunno, I mean, Dogen seems to make statements strongly condemning what he judges as Buddhist heresy (even Zen heresy) which is a mark of fanaticism. He seems very preoccupied with the idea that his version is the right one. Perhaps one buys into the idea that one isn't being pitched anything.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

Well, you obviously seem to have your own ideas of what is right and wrong too, as do most people.

Yes, I condemn certain kinds of practice too, which I consider counter-productive or even harmful for most people (e.g., I personally do not care for practice too centered on attaining "bliss" states as a general observation, I think too intense "koan" centered Zazen is more likely to lead someone to a nervous breakdown than "enlightenment," I think many beliefs of traditional Buddhism (such as that the earth is flat) are superstition (although "to each their own"), and I condemn with all my heart any kind of cultish activity for anybody).

Everyone is entitled to viewpoints, and to advocate certain approaches.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Bion]

I dunno, I mean, Dogen seems to make statements strongly condemning what he judges as Buddhist heresy (even Zen heresy) which is a mark of fanaticism. He seems very preoccupied with the idea that his version is the right one. Perhaps one buys into the idea that one isn't being pitched anything.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

Fanaticism is a word that is generally missused, especially by those who reject the ideas of complete “faith” or “trust” or obedience to a set of rules. I assume anyone who shows loyalty, obedience or trust when it doesn’t benefit them would seem fanatical to some.
Dogen set off on a long quest to bring back a genuine form of Buddhism to Japan, hoping to tear down institutionalized abuse by buddhist priests holding power and using “faith” and a twisted practice as a tool to manipulate. It was rather important that he insisted on and proved the “authenticity” of his teachings if he were to change anything in that sense.

Sorry for the extra sentence.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[Inshin]

When I switched from Ānāpānasati and attempting Jhanas to Shikantaza it was difficult at first, I was thinking "nothing is happening" (although there was a lot going on), and although I didn't experience any "benefits" while sitting, I've noticed huge/small changes in my daily life. Nowadays I might chose to do Ānāpānasati over having few glasses of wine (it feels so much better), but Shikantaza is my practice. I belive that all the other practices/dharma gates lead to Enlightenment but that's where it stops : Zen and Shikantaza not only lead to Enlightenment, it is a practice of what happens after, of realising the Way, as there were many who achieved Enlightenment but few who realised it in the daily life.

Gassho
Sat

[gaurdianaq]

This.

Well, I can go all the way with the first paragraph at least. Regarding the second, is it not possible for Zen people to become Shikantaza thumpers making it into the final word on everything in a way that betrays a lack of sincere inquiry through artificial finality in the same way that some Christians become Bible thumpers resorting to a standard text as the answer for everything rather than doing any free thinking themselves?

I don't know that you're doing this per se, yet this possibility provides one of my hesitations for taking up the kind of only-Shikantaza approach I see in some. In the meanwhile when I sit just-sitting I will do so without making so much of it.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

I'm sure it's possible, if someone says "Shikantaza is the only way, all other ways are false" then I'd say that counts as what you're describing, then again maybe not though... If someone says Shikantaza is the one true way and all other ways are false, are they really describing Shikantaza?

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today!

[A.J.]

I'm sure it's possible, if someone says "Shikantaza is the only way, all other ways are false" then I'd say that counts as what you're describing, then again maybe not though... If someone says Shikantaza is the one true way and all other ways are false, are they really describing Shikantaza?

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today!

It also seems odd to treat any one thing like the answer to all of life. It seems more appropriate to my taste to simply consider it a style of sitting even if the style is that of just-sitting.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

Well, you obviously seem to have your own ideas of what is right and wrong too, as do most people.

Yes, I condemn certain kinds of practice too, which I consider counter-productive or even harmful for most people (e.g., I personally do not care for practice too centered on attaining "bliss" states as a general observation, I think too intense "koan" centered Zazen is more likely to lead someone to a nervous breakdown than "enlightenment," I think many beliefs of traditional Buddhism (such as that the earth is flat) are superstition (although "to each their own"), and I condemn with all my heart any kind of cultish activity for anybody).

Everyone is entitled to viewpoints, and to advocate certain approaches.

Gassho, J

STLah

I've never been shy about having some ideas but let it be known I'm in a consistent process so some of these interactions are merely thinking about my concerns out loud.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

Fanaticism is a word that is generally missused, especially by those who reject the ideas of complete “faith” or “trust” or obedience to a set of rules. I assume anyone who shows loyalty, obedience or trust when it doesn’t benefit them would seem fanatical to some.
Dogen set off on a long quest to bring back a genuine form of Buddhism to Japan, hoping to tear down institutionalized abuse by buddhist priests holding power and using “faith” and a twisted practice as a tool to manipulate. It was rather important that he insisted on and proved the “authenticity” of his teachings if he were to change anything in that sense.

Sorry for the extra sentence.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

I doubt the genuine versus not-genuine framework for Dogen's mission. To speak disparagingly of another group under the same umbrella in ancient times only demonstrates to me that there are others who don't think about things identically in a way that somehow threatens institutional solidarity. He has some great stuff but when he veers off in that direction I tune him out.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

When I switched from Ānāpānasati and attempting Jhanas to Shikantaza it was difficult at first, I was thinking "nothing is happening" (although there was a lot going on), and although I didn't experience any "benefits" while sitting, I've noticed huge/small changes in my daily life. Nowadays I might chose to do Ānāpānasati over having few glasses of wine (it feels so much better), but Shikantaza is my practice. I belive that all the other practices/dharma gates lead to Enlightenment but that's where it stops : Zen and Shikantaza not only lead to Enlightenment, it is a practice of what happens after, of realising the Way, as there were many who achieved Enlightenment but few who realised it in the daily life.

Gassho
Sat

If just-sitting is truly just-sitting then making it the practice that leads to and continues after enlightenment sounds like a lot of to do about nothing.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

It also seems odd to treat any one thing like the answer to all of life. It seems more appropriate to my taste to simply consider it a style of sitting even if the style is that of just-sitting.


This is a great misunderstanding of Shikantaza Zazen: Shikantaza --is-- the answer to all of life ... while sitting ... precisely because all the questions, needs and measures are dropped while sitting. Thus, while sitting, nothing is missing; Thus sitting is its own complete answer.

Then, rising up from the cushion and returning to a life of endless questions, doubts, needs and measures ... the endless questions remains, yet so does the complete answer.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

I doubt the genuine versus not-genuine framework for Dogen's mission. To speak disparagingly of another group under the same umbrella in ancient times only demonstrates to me that there are others who don't think about things identically in a way that somehow threatens institutional solidarity.

That is very often quite true, and some criticisms of other groups stem only from seeking to establish our "in-group" identity.

On the other hand, some criticisms of other groups are legitimate, reasoned and constructive. (Personally, I try to stick with such criticisms as best I can.)

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

If just-sitting is truly just-sitting then making it the practice that leads to and continues after enlightenment sounds like a lot of to do about nothing.



Maybe again a bit of a misunderstanding of Shikantaza. In Master Dogen's teaching of "ongoing Practice-Enlightenment," although there may come moments of profound insight into the wholeness and intimate identity of this universe, "Enlightenment" truly has no beginning nor end, and is just manifest in every thought, word or act in which one leaps beyond excess desire, anger and violence, jealousy and other divided thinking and the like.

We are always originally Enlightened from that startless start, yet if we do not realize (understand) and realize (make real thought our actions) such in life, the fact is hidden.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Inshin]

If just-sitting is truly just-sitting then making it the practice that leads to and continues after enlightenment sounds like a lot of to do about nothing.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

I feel like the secret lies in "nothing" as it is opposed to "everything", and if "nothing" and "everything" drops, then it is..... [gassholook]

Gassho
Sat

[A.J.]

This is a great misunderstanding of Shikantaza Zazen: Shikantaza --is-- the answer to all of life ... while sitting ... precisely because all the questions, needs and measures are dropped while sitting. Thus, while sitting, nothing is missing; Thus sitting is its own complete answer.

Then, rising up from the cushion and returning to a life of endless questions, doubts, needs and measures ... the endless questions remains, yet so does the complete answer.

Gassho, J

STLah

That sounds more like sitting with the lack of an answer. My comment was in regard to people treating meditation as a panacea for every conceivable question and problem.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

Maybe again a bit of a misunderstanding of Shikantaza. In Master Dogen's teaching of "ongoing Practice-Enlightenment," although there may come moments of profound insight into the wholeness and intimate identity of this universe, "Enlightenment" truly has no beginning nor end, and is just manifest in every thought, word or act in which one leaps beyond excess desire, anger and violence, jealousy and other divided thinking and the like.

We are always originally Enlightened from that startless start, yet if we do not realize (understand) and realize (make real thought our actions) such in life, the fact is hidden.

Gassho, J

STLah

Since enlightenment has no beginning or end and we are always originally enlightened from whence come obscurations? Are obscurations also enlightenment? If not, and enlightenment is original from the startless start, then where does obscuration come from?

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

I feel like the secret lies in "nothing" as it is opposed to "everything", and if "nothing" and "everything" drops, then it is..... [gassholook]

Gassho
Sat

If there is a secret to it then that doesn't sound like just-sitting either.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Kyoshin]

If there is a secret to it then that doesn't sound like just-sitting either.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah"There is no secret ingredient."
-Kung Fu Panda [emoji209]

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

That sounds more like sitting with the lack of an answer. My comment was in regard to people treating meditation as a panacea for every conceivable question and problem.



But Zazen is in fact a crystal clear answer for all conceivable questions and a panacea resolving all problems. :buddha:

It does not do this by removing all the questions (it will not tell you the weather next Tuesday, the square root of 275, nor God's favorite ice cream flavor), but it will meet and drop away all questions with a most precise "all things are just as they are."

As well, it will not cure and remove all problems (your flat tire will still be flat, your broken leg will still be broken), but it will meet all problems with an "all things are just as they are," the reminder that "problems" are only "circumstances" pending our rejection of circumstances between our own ears and ... most powerfully ... by washing the whole world into Emptiness by which there is no "self" to suffer, no thing to be suffered, no tire, nor measure of full vs. flat, no leg, no whole or broken, nothing lacking and nothing to repair, in the unbroken Wholeness and Fullness of All.

In the case of the tire, "all things are change" (even flat tires to change :) ), we role along with the change, while also seeing that ultimately "nothing rises or falls." [monk]

Not a thing in the universe escapes the flowing wholeness of emptiness so, yes, Zazen is a complete answer and a total cure, even as next Tuesday remains a mystery, our flat tire still needs to be changed and a busted leg needs a cast.

Gassho, J

STLah (Sorry, a bit long)

PS - God's favorite ice cream flavor? Why, ALL of them, of course! :p

[Jundo]

Since enlightenment has no beginning or end and we are always originally enlightened from whence come obscurations? Are obscurations also enlightenment? If not, and enlightenment is original from the startless start, then where does obscuration come from?


The "obscurations" come from that self/other divide in which our mental processes separate the wholeness of suchness into me vs. you, me vs. everything not me, this and that, the things I link and the things I don't, etc., breaking the world into separate pieces and our subjective self-judgments and reactions to the separate pieces, with all the incumbent frictions and conflicts, desires and disappointments.

Some schools of Eastern thought and practice seek to complete get past the viewpoint of separation back to wholeness, consideration the separation purely delusion to be escaped. Zen teachings are rather different, by coming to see that the wholeness and division are actually "not two," just "two sides of a no sided coin," thus finding the divided and deluded world still the same, yet very different, when see through (see above comment about "flat tires" which are still flat and still a problem needing change, yet we all see that there are no separate tires, no flat or full in the overall "Fullness," and thus nothing lacking.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

But Zazen is in fact a crystal clear answer and a panacea for all conceivable questions and problems.

It does not do this by removing all the questions (it will not tell you the weather next Tuesday nor God's favorite ice cream flavor), but it will meet and drop away all questions with a most precise "all things are just as they are."

It will not cure and solve all problems (your flat tire will still be flat, your broken leg will still be broken), but it will meet all problems with an "all things are just as they are," the reminder that "problems" are only "circumstances" pending our rejection of circumstances between our own ears and ... most powerfully ... by washing the whole world into Emptiness by which there is no "self" to suffer, no thing to be suffered, no tire nor full nor flat, not leg, no whole or broken, nothing lacking and nothing to repair. As to the tire, "All things are change" (even flat tires to change :) ), we role along with the change, while also seeing that ultimately "nothing rises or falls." [monk]



Not a thing in the universe escapes the flowing wholeness of emptiness so, yes, Zazen is a complete answer and a total cure, even as next Tuesday remains a mystery, our flat tire still needs to be changed and a busted leg needs a cast.

Gassho, J

STLah (Sorry, a bit long)

PS - God's favorite ice cream flavor? Why, ALL of them, of course! :p

It is what it is. That can surely be said of anything. I'm not sure if a formal Zazen practice is needed to realize that.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

The "obscurations" come from that self/other divide in which our mental processes separate the wholeness of suchness into me vs. you, me vs. everything not me, this and that, the things I link and the things I don't, etc., breaking the world into separate pieces and our subjective self-judgments and reactions to the separate pieces, with all the incumbent frictions and conflicts, desires and disappointments.

Some schools of Eastern thought and practice seek to complete get past the viewpoint of separation back to wholeness, consideration the separation purely delusion to be escaped. Zen teachings are rather different, by coming to see that the wholeness and division are actually "not two," just "two sides of a no sided coin," thus finding the divided and deluded world still the same, yet very different, when see through (see above comment about "flat tires" which are still flat and still a problem needing change, yet we all see that there are no separate tires, no flat or full in the overall "Fullness," and thus nothing lacking.

Gassho, J

STLah

All that truly exists is suchness... and yet divisions enter in... so where do they come from other than suchness?

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

It is what it is. That can surely be said of anything. I'm not sure if a formal Zazen practice is needed to realize that.

Gassho,



Oh, there is a world of difference between an ordinary, resigned, shoulder shrugging and giving up "it is what it is," and the celebration, joy, relief, wholeness and flowing of "Yippee, all is just what it is!" [claps]

Couple that with the profound rest and relief whence one realizes that there is not just a separate "self" to suffer, nor outside things to be suffered. It takes "two" to tussle and tangle with tension, and the dropping of "two-ness" is liberating.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

All that truly exists is suchness... and yet divisions enter in... so where do they come from other than suchness?

Gassho,



The brain, between the ears, which divides the whole "soup" into individual flavors and ingredients of "carrots," "potatoes" and "peas." I believe they each exist in some way apart from our sense appraisal of them, but the sensing, imaging, naming, categorizing, judging, relating, liking and disliking seems to happen between the human ears, whereby the whole soup becomes the carrots we love, but the peas we hate.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

The brain, between the ears, which divides the whole "soup" into individual flavors and ingredients of "carrots," "potatoes" and "peas." I believe they each exist in some way apart from our sense appraisal of them, but the sensing, imaging, naming, categorizing, judging, relating, liking and disliking seems to happen between the human ears, whereby the whole soup becomes the carrots we love, but the peas we hate.

Gassho, J

STLah

Wouldn't the activity between the ears be suchness as well?

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

Oh, there is a world of difference between an ordinary, resigned, shoulder shrugging and giving up "it is what it is," and the celebration, joy, relief, wholeness and flowing of "Yippee, all is just what it is!" [claps]

Couple that with the profound rest and relief whence one realizes that there is not just a separate "self" to suffer, nor outside things to be suffered. It takes "two" to tussle and tangle with tension, and the dropping of "two-ness" is liberating.

Gassho, J

STLah

It is what it is is a simple fact not in itself a reason for resignation or yippee. Resignation versus yippee is also duality.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

Wouldn't the activity between the ears be suchness as well?

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

Yes, it is. Almost all eastern philosophies/religions agree on that fact, and the main difference is that some eastern philosophies/religions completely reject the world of division as "delusion" which needs to be cleaned away to get back to "suchness," while others (Zen tends to this, although there are exceptions) celebrate the world of division when it is seen through as being also co-identical with the undivided. Then the world of division appears very different, although still the world of division.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

It is what it is is a simple fact not in itself a reason for resignation or yippee. Resignation versus yippee is also duality.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

My teacher, Nishijima, observed that there is something subtly positive, joyous and celebratory about what Buddhism considers the realization of "awakening" (and likewise those other religions that speak of "Brahma" or the like) that renders the dropping away of division very different from just zero, meaningless, grey, nihilism. As Buddhists are fond of saying, we are neither the "eternalism" and reification of a godhead like "Brahma," but neither are we nihilists. Perhaps it just comes from the fact that, in Zazen, when the divisions and frictions fall away, the resulting feeling is positive, joyous and welcoming more than a bottomless pit of dark nothing etc.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

Yes, it is. Almost all eastern philosophies/religions agree on that fact, and the main difference is that some eastern philosophies/religions completely reject the world of division as "delusion" which needs to be cleaned away to get back to "suchness," while others (Zen tends to this, although there are exceptions) celebrate the world of division when it is seen through as being also co-identical with the undivided. Then the world of division appears very different, although still the world of division.

Gassho, J

STLah

So then, if the world of division manifests suchness as much as non-division then there wouldn't be a duality between duality and non-duality, would there?

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Kotei]

It is what it is. That can surely be said of anything. I'm not sure if a formal Zazen practice is needed to realize that.

I think that realising it intellectually and experiencing it directly are something completely different.
Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

[A.J.]

My teacher, Nishijima, observed that there is something subtly positive, joyous and celebratory about what Buddhism considers the realization of "awakening" (and likewise those other religions that speak of "Brahma" or the like) that renders the dropping away of division very different from just zero, meaningless, grey, nihilism. As Buddhists are fond of saying, we are neither the "eternalism" and reification of a godhead like "Brahma," but neither are we nihilists. Perhaps it just comes from the fact that, in Zazen, when the divisions and frictions fall away, the resulting feeling is positive, joyous and welcoming more than a bottomless pit of dark nothing etc.

Gassho, J

STLah

I do enjoy that tinge of color that exists in the tradition. Nevertheless suchness doesn't imply nihilism or positive spin in itself. As a side note, I notice in portraits of Bodhidharma he always looks sad or angry. What's up with that?

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

I think that realising it intellectually and experiencing it directly are something completely different.
Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

This also, is a standard answer that any religion might provide to advocate for their special claims. What you said runs the gamut from Mormons to Pentecostals to Scientologists so I'm not sure it's the best argument for the uniqueness in a Buddhist version of "it is what it is".

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

So then, if the world of division manifests suchness as much as non-division then there wouldn't be a duality between duality and non-duality, would there?



Ah, this is the great Koan that must be experienced, not merely encountered intellectually (as Kotei so rightly says). Master Dogen wrote,


The way is originally perfect and all-pervading. How could it be contingent on practice and realization? The true vehicle is self-sufficient. What need is there for special effort? Indeed, the whole body is free from dust. Who could believe in a means to brush it clean? It is never apart from this very place; what is the use of traveling around to practice? And yet, if there is a hairsbreadth deviation, it is like the gap between heaven and earth.

Suchness and division are not two ... and yet most people, in their ignorance, do not realize so and only encounter division. Our practice is to realize (grock, understand) and realize (make real in life through our living so) such fact. Only then is samsara, this world of division, the same as before, yet completely different.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kotei]

This also, is a standard answer that any religion might provide to advocate for their special claims. What you said runs the gamut from Mormons to Pentecostals to Scientologists so I'm not sure it's the best argument for the uniqueness in a Buddhist version of "it is what it is".

Well, this is what I am experiencing here and there during Zazen and why I am practicing it,
'standard answer' or not.
It is not only true for religions, it is the difference between theory and practice,
you can read tons of books about carving a statue and completely fail when you try doing it.
edit: of course, there might be other ways (of practice) for experiencing the same.
Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

[Jundo]

I do enjoy that tinge of color that exists in the tradition. Nevertheless suchness doesn't imply nihilism or positive spin in itself. As a side note, I notice in portraits of Bodhidharma he always looks sad or angry. What's up with that?



Well, the formula for fructose sugar in ice cream (C6-H12-O6) does not necessarily imply sweetness, but yet ... there it is, sweet on the tongue and not to be denied! I think that it is actually not that different from the "bliss" states you asked about on that other thread, but we just tend to avoid to run to the extremes of "bliss," and emphasize more an equanimity, peace and simple positive wholeness while living in this world.

As to Bodhidharma, I think it is just a case of "gruff old grandpa with a heart of gold." I know a lot of guys like that, and I once made this picture with a bit of photoshop, turning that frown upside down:


https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5250&d=1534882002&thumb=1

The Japanese, in their earthiness, have also made all kinds of Bodhidharma pictures through the centuries ... such as the many "Bodhidharma & the Geisha" pictures by Utagawa and others (still not quite smiling though! [morehappy] ) ...


https://0.api.artsmia.org/800/117166.jpg

In more recent times, I do like the Bodhidharma action figures, ready to clear the room of the unenlightened!


https://manofactionfigures.com/sites/default/files/images/BODHI_DHARMA_2.preview.jpg

https://manofactionfigures.com/products/legends-bodhi-dharma-12-inch-collectible-figure-triad-toys

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

Well, this is what I am experiencing here and there during Zazen and why I am practicing it,
'standard answer' or not.
It is not only true for religions, it is the difference between theory and practice,
you can read tons of books about carving a statue and completely fail when you try doing it.
edit: of course, there might be other ways (of practice) for experiencing the same.
Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

My point is that the intellectual versus experiential idea of understanding is dismissive more than useful and also used by many nefarious groups to smuggle in bizarre beliefs.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

Well, the formula for fructose sugar in ice cream (C6-H12-O6) does not necessarily imply sweetness, but yet ... there it is, sweet on the tongue and not to be denied! I think that it is actually not that different from the "bliss" states you asked about on that other thread, but we just tend to avoid to run to the extremes of "bliss," and emphasize more an equanimity, peace and simple positive wholeness while living in this world.

As to Bodhidharma, I think it is just a case of "gruff old grandpa with a heart of gold." I know a lot of guys like that, and I once made this picture with a bit of photoshop, turning that frown upside down:


https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5250&d=1534882002&thumb=1

The Japanese, in their earthiness, have also made all kinds of Bodhidharma pictures through the centuries ... such as the many "Bodhidharma & the Geisha" pictures by Utagawa and others (still not quite smiling though! [morehappy] ) ...


https://0.api.artsmia.org/800/117166.jpg

In more recent times, I do like the Bodhidharma action figures, ready to clear the room of the unenlightened!


https://manofactionfigures.com/sites/default/files/images/BODHI_DHARMA_2.preview.jpg

https://manofactionfigures.com/products/legends-bodhi-dharma-12-inch-collectible-figure-triad-toys

Gassho, J

STLah

In my experience rapturous samadhi is something that can be stumbled on as a meditative state but I don't think it is the logical consequence of non-duality. That Bodhidharma with the Geisha is great. I've never seen that one.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[A.J.]

Ah, this is the great Koan that must be experienced, not merely encountered intellectually (as Kotei so rightly says). Master Dogen wrote,



Suchness and division are not two ... and yet most people, in their ignorance, do not realize so and only encounter division. Our practice is to realize (grock, understand) and realize (make real in life through our living so) such fact. Only then is samsara, this world of division, the same as before, yet completely different.

Gassho, J

STLah

If duality and non-duality are not a duality then how is there room for deviation? Non-duality and the non-duality of duality and non-duality in my experience don't leave much of a sense that there is much room to deviate from the suchness of suchness.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

If duality and non-duality are not a duality then how is there room for deviation? Non-duality and the non-duality of duality and non-duality in my experience don't leave much of a sense that there is much room to deviate from the suchness of suchness.



This is the point where any decent Zen teacher would bop you on the head, toss you out of the room, and tell you to go wash your bowls.

Fortunately for you, I am not a decent Zen teacher.

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

This is the point where any decent Zen teacher would bop you on the head, toss you out of the room, and tell you to go wash your bowls.

Fortunately for you, I am not a decent Zen teacher.

Gassho, J

STLah

To me this kind of resorting to stereotypical zen antics smacks of a cop out. If duality and non-duality are not a duality then how can you deviate from suchness? That is a serious question about the ultimate implications of a non-dual point of view and not something to be hedged.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

To me this kind of resorting to stereotypical zen antics smacks of a cop out. If duality and non-duality are not a duality then how can you deviate from suchness? That is a serious question about the ultimate implications of a non-dual point of view and not something to be hedged.



Well, you are asking me to explain why water is wet without diving in the water, but I will try.

In one view, there is only "ocean" in which water, swimmer and swimming, as well as sharks and snapper, coral and brine are only ocean. Ocean is just its water, swimmers, swimming, sharks and fish, coral and brine ... and water, swimmers, swimming, sharks and fish, coral and brine are precisely the ocean, not to mention the flowing life and activity of it all as all rolls and swirls together. Waves rise and fall, but there is only flowing ocean, nothing gained or lost. Shark eats swimmer, yet ocean is still ocean, so nothing actually comes and goes. What is more, coral is just ocean, sharks and swimmer are just ocean ... and since ocean is ocean is ocean ... coral is precisely shark which is thoroughly swimmer.

When the swimmer experiences, not just her coming and going, birthing and dying individual self pursued by sharks, but one's oceanness ... there is no death, no other place to go, no fear.

And yet ... swimmers are just swimmers, hungry sharks are hungry sharks ... and that is darn scary, so swim like hell to get away, lest ya get eaten!

Which is true? YES!

Our practice is to become good swimmers, swimming with grace, realizing both our swimmer nature and our ocean nature ... avoiding the sharks as we can lest we lose a leg or life, even though the sharks are just us and there is nothing to lose for all is ocean.

Now, forget all this silly talk about oceans and swimmers and fish, because the mere image and idea ... even the idea between the ears of the vast "ocean" ... does not even come close to capturing the actual ocean whose salt stings the eyes, and which flows endlessly across the horizon in all directions. Best to just jump in (= Zazen) and taste this briny whole in every drop on one's own tongue.

(Sorry I ran long ... maybe it is just all wet. :p )

Gassho, J

STLah

[gaurdianaq]

This also, is a standard answer that any religion might provide to advocate for their special claims. What you said runs the gamut from Mormons to Pentecostals to Scientologists so I'm not sure it's the best argument for the uniqueness in a Buddhist version of "it is what it is".

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

It might be a standard answer, but I think in this scenario it's the correct answer. When we explain things via words we can only explain by referring to other things we've already familiar with. If I asked you to describe the colour red to someone born blind, would you be able to do it? What about if I asked you to describe the music of Mozart to someone born deaf? These are things that must be personally experienced, now if you had someone who had never seen the colour purple, but had seen the colour blue. You might be able to say "it's kind of like blue, but not quite" that would get someone closer to the understanding of what purple is, but they'd still have to see purple to have actually experienced it, until then any conceptions they have about it are not likely to be accurate. The same could be said with music, even if someone had never heard Mozart, but had perhaps heard a different musician and had a general idea what different music notes/instruments sounded like, you might be able to use words to describe what Mozart sounds like, because they have a reference point of what a C note sounds like, a D note, etc etc.

I'll also say that I never liked these types of answers either, I would say "If it can't be described to me then how can I know it's real!?!? I can't just have faith!". It's only recently that I've begun to change my mind about this, and some of the zenny (two sides of a no sided coin) have started to make more sense to me. Do I believe I've fully experienced them? Definitely not, but I've decided I'm going to continue my practice with faith that it's worth doing. If I experience the oneness of all reality one day, then that's cool, if I don't... then that's cool too!

Apologies for going over 3 sentences.

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah :)

[A.J.]

It might be a standard answer, but I think in this scenario it's the correct answer. When we explain things via words we can only explain by referring to other things we've already familiar with. If I asked you to describe the colour red to someone born blind, would you be able to do it? What about if I asked you to describe the music of Mozart to someone born deaf? These are things that must be personally experienced, now if you had someone who had never seen the colour purple, but had seen the colour blue. You might be able to say "it's kind of like blue, but not quite" that would get someone closer to the understanding of what purple is, but they'd still have to see purple to have actually experienced it, until then any conceptions they have about it are not likely to be accurate. The same could be said with music, even if someone had never heard Mozart, but had perhaps heard a different musician and had a general idea what different music notes/instruments sounded like, you might be able to use words to describe what Mozart sounds like, because they have a reference point of what a C note sounds like, a D note, etc etc.

I'll also say that I never liked these types of answers either, I would say "If it can't be described to me then how can I know it's real!?!? I can't just have faith!". It's only recently that I've begun to change my mind about this, and some of the zenny (two sides of a no sided coin) have started to make more sense to me. Do I believe I've fully experienced them? Definitely not, but I've decided I'm going to continue my practice with faith that it's worth doing. If I experience the oneness of all reality one day, then that's cool, if I don't... then that's cool too!

Apologies for going over 3 sentences.

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah :)

How it is possible to deviate from true non-duality is a legitimate question based on the position accepted in Zen that duality and non-duality are not a duality. It is not a matter of describing red to the blind but of being willing to examine the implications of an accepted position. Faith can go any direction and a Mormon could give you a similar argument for why you need to pray for the witness of the Spirit that the Book of Mormon is true so the above approach is pretty much pointless.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

I'll also say that I never liked these types of answers either, I would say "If it can't be described to me then how can I know it's real!?!? I can't just have faith!". It's only recently that I've begun to change my mind about this, and some of the zenny (two sides of a no sided coin) have started to make more sense to me. Do I believe I've fully experienced them? Definitely not, but I've decided I'm going to continue my practice with faith that it's worth doing.

Just out of curiosity, are explanations (not original to me, by the way, and pretty standard) like the "ocean" and "swimmer/shark" thing above still fuzzy for you? Any sense of how it could be so? It is logical too, although not our standard mental geometry.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?18091-Practice&p=270367&viewfull=1#post270367

Gassho, J

STLah

[gaurdianaq]

Just out of curiosity, are explanations (not original to me, by the way, and pretty standard) like the "ocean" and "swimmer/shark" thing above still fuzzy for you? Any sense of how it could be so? It is logical too, although not our standard mental geometry.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?18091-Practice&p=270367&viewfull=1#post270367

Gassho, J

STLah

Nah not anymore. In fact the one about the ocean and the waves coming from the ocean and going back to the ocean (but never having been separate from the ocean in the first place) was one of the ones that helped me quite a bit in my understanding if I remember correctly.

gassho1
Evan,
Sat todau, lah

[Jundo]

Nah not anymore.

Ah, that's bad, sorry to hear that. Drinking the kool-aid I see. :encouragement::p

Gassho, J

STLah

[gaurdianaq]

Ah, that's bad, sorry to hear that. Drinking the kool-aid I see. :encouragement::p

Gassho, J

STLah

Lol, somehow I had a feeling you were going to say something like that.

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah

[A.J.]

Well, you are asking me to explain why water is wet without diving in the water, but I will try.

In one view, there is only "ocean" in which water, swimmer and swimming, as well as sharks and snapper, coral and brine are only ocean. Ocean is just its water, swimmers, swimming, sharks and fish, coral and brine ... and water, swimmers, swimming, sharks and fish, coral and brine are precisely the ocean, not to mention the flowing life and activity of it all as all rolls and swirls together. Waves rise and fall, but there is only flowing ocean, nothing gained or lost. Shark eats swimmer, yet ocean is still ocean, so nothing actually comes and goes. What is more, coral is just ocean, sharks and swimmer are just ocean ... and since ocean is ocean is ocean ... coral is precisely shark which is thoroughly swimmer.

When the swimmer experiences, not just her coming and going, birthing and dying individual self pursued by sharks, but one's oceanness ... there is no death, no other place to go, no fear.

And yet ... swimmers are just swimmers, hungry sharks are hungry sharks ... and that is darn scary, so swim like hell to get away, lest ya get eaten!

Which is true? YES!

Our practice is to become good swimmers, swimming with grace, realizing both our swimmer nature and our ocean nature ... avoiding the sharks as we can lest we lose a leg or life, even though the sharks are just us and there is nothing to lose for all is ocean.

Now, forget all this silly talk about oceans and swimmers and fish, because the mere image and idea ... even the idea between the ears of the vast "ocean" ... does not even come close to capturing the actual ocean whose salt stings the eyes, and which flows endlessly across the horizon in all directions. Best to just jump in (= Zazen) and taste this briny whole in every drop on one's own tongue.

(Sorry I ran long ... maybe it is just all wet. :p )

Gassho, J

STLah

I appreciate your honest attempt at an answer and there is some sense to it, although I must admit the constant insistence that to have serious questions is to refuse to dive in the water isn't something I find true or helpful.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

I appreciate your honest attempt at an answer and there is some sense to it, although I must admit the constant insistence that to have serious questions is to refuse to dive in the water isn't something I find true or helpful.


Sorry you feel that way. Have been trying to respond to all your questions as possible. Now, let's all swim!

Gassho, J

STLah

[gaurdianaq]

Sorry you feel that way. Have been trying to respond to all your questions as possible. Now, let's all swim!

Gassho, J

STLah

Just a heads up, I don't think you meant it this way but "Sorry you feel that way" is considered to be a non-apology apology/a way to dismiss someones frustrations.

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Jundo]

Just a heads up, I don't think you meant it this way but "Sorry you feel that way" is considered to be a non-apology apology/a way to dismiss someones frustrations.

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah

I know what I meant. :p

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kyoshin]

In Jundo's defense, getting unhelpful answers from teachers is one of the central pillars of zen practice.


Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

[Bion]

I know what I meant. :p

Gassho, J

STLah

[emoji1374] I take that as a mic drop [emoji1787]

SatToday lah

[Bion]

In Jundo's defense, getting unhelpful answers from teachers is one of the central pillars of zen practice.


Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

Aren’t all answers helpful? Whether they clarify something or whether they make us think.. It’s all helpful.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[Kyoshin]

Aren’t all answers helpful? Whether they clarify something or whether they make us think.. It’s all helpful.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah
Helpful answers are unhelpful, unhelpful answers are helpful.

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

[Bion]

Helpful answers are unhelpful, unhelpful answers are helpful.

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

Zen it up! [emoji1]

[emoji1374] SatToday

[Kyoshin]

Zen it up! [emoji1]

[emoji1374] SatTodayI'll definitely not try to do that. [emoji16][emoji16][emoji16]
Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

[gaurdianaq]

Helpful answers are unhelpful, unhelpful answers are helpful.

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

I retract my previous statement of "getting it".

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lah

[Kyoshin]

I retract my previous statement of "getting it".

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today, lahJust a little joke. Riffing on the "form is emptiness, emptiness is form" bit of the Heart Sutra. The "x is y, y is x" formula is an endless well of terrible Buddhist comedy. [emoji16]

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Just a little joke. Riffing on the "form is emptiness, emptiness is form" bit of the Heart Sutra. The "x is y, y is x" formula is an endless well of terrible Buddhist comedy. [emoji16]

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

Okay guys, cut the banter now. [gassholook]

Gassho, J

STLah

[A.J.]

Sorry you feel that way. Have been trying to respond to all your questions as possible. Now, let's all swim!

Gassho, J

STLah

The assumption that trickles in here that there is a strong separation between having experience and having questions is the only aspect I find unhelpful because it doesn't seem relevant or true. To have experiences easily creates more questions that sound intellectual because one wonders how the experience relates to the broader context of a tradition with points of view based on those sorts of experiences. I was only stating my thought on that one aspect that has come up in more than one conversation but I appreciate your responses in general so no need to be sorry.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

[Jundo]

The assumption that trickles in here that there is a strong separation between having experience and having questions is the only aspect I find unhelpful because it doesn't seem relevant or true. To have experiences easily creates more questions that sound intellectual because one wonders how the experience relates to the broader context of a tradition with points of view based on those sorts of experiences. I was only stating my thought on that one aspect that has come up in more than one conversation but I appreciate your responses in general so no need to be sorry.

Gassho,

Andrew,

Satlah

Keep em coming if you want. So long as you also thoroughly know or learn, to the marrow and beyond, how to sit for a time dropping all questions and measures, then feel free to ask away once you get up.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah