Does the Mind live in the Now?

[Mattg]

How we see any object seems to be based on our history/karma, does mind only compare black or white, big or small, this or that? Or can we actually see what is Now without a comparison to reflect it against?

We think, "that's a beautiful large coffee mug" but why is it beautiful, what makes it large, how do we know it is a coffee mug.

We may think, "I'll make this lump of clay into a large beautiful coffee mug" so are we seeing an object and applying our history/karma to imagine a future Now.  

Are either of these Now's really Now, are we in the Now at this very instance of our experience.

Our mind/brain may never be in the Now but we only live in the Now, is this our fundamental dilemma?

What do you think?

Matt
st

[Jishin]

How we see any object seems to be based on our history/karma, does mind only compare black or white, big or small, this or that? Or can we actually see what is Now without a comparison to reflect it against?

We think, "that's a beautiful large coffee mug" but why is it beautiful, what makes it large, how do we know it is a coffee mug.

We may think, "I'll make this lump of clay into a large beautiful coffee mug" so are we seeing an object and applying our history/karma to imagine a future Now.  

Are either of these Now's really Now, are we in the Now at this very instance of our experience.

Our mind/brain may never be in the Now but we only live in the Now, is this our fundamental dilemma?

What do you think?

Matt
stHi Matt,

What is mind?

Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

[Bion]

How we see any object seems to be based on our history/karma, does mind only compare black or white, big or small, this or that? Or can we actually see what is Now without a comparison to reflect it against?

We think, "that's a beautiful large coffee mug" but why is it beautiful, what makes it large, how do we know it is a coffee mug.

We may think, "I'll make this lump of clay into a large beautiful coffee mug" so are we seeing an object and applying our history/karma to imagine a future Now.  

Are either of these Now's really Now, are we in the Now at this very instance of our experience.

Our mind/brain may never be in the Now but we only live in the Now, is this our fundamental dilemma?

What do you think?

Matt
st

Well, we never experience the NOW per se, as it takes fractions of seconds for light and sound to reach us, the senses to perceive and the brain to interpret and then for the mind to assign values and draw from conditioning before a certain version of reality becomes what we experience.

On the other hand, we could start talking about what “mind” we are mentioning, whether the “ordinary” mind, the consciousness, the conditioned mind or which layer - It’s like a cake.. all layers upon layers.

Whenever we take emotions and concepts into account we are speaking of our own subjective reality: a mug can be beautiful to me yet ugly to someone else, big for someone with tiny hands and too small for someone with large ones, the rain is a blessing for farmers but a nuisance for the lady with 700$ shoes on and the examples might continue.

SatToday

[Horin]

Mmmh, I think past was now at the time we encountered the past moments, when we think of past moments, these are just thoughts arising right now, in this very instant. It's not the past but a mental construction in this present time. When we think of future, these are also just thoughts right now...and tomorrow at 5pm will be also another moment right now.. so each moment is followed by another moment, as the all embracing reality rather like dot by dot by dot instead of a line of time..
I'm gonna pick out the shobogenzo and read the uji chapter now:-)


Gassho

Horin

Stlah

Enviado desde mi PLK-L01 mediante Tapatalk

[Tomás ESP]

I believe Dogen's chapter in Shobogenzo "Uji" might prove useful to answer this. Although I am not sure it will give you an answer that is satisfying to the "rational" part of your brain. From my perspective, it is always now and we are always it. Might be wrong, this is just from my personal experience.

[Sekishi]

How we see any object seems to be based on our history/karma, does mind only compare black or white, big or small, this or that? Or can we actually see what is Now without a comparison to reflect it against?

We think, "that's a beautiful large coffee mug" but why is it beautiful, what makes it large, how do we know it is a coffee mug.


Hi Matt,

There are some good questions and reflections already in this thread.

1. As others have said, check out Dogen's "Uji" fascicle in Shobogenzo. I am no Dogen scholar, but one thing to keep in mind is that "uji" is a neologism, making it a) difficult to know exactly how Dogen meant it, and b) difficult to translate into modern English. Recent translations include: "being-time", "time-being", "existence-time", "at the time of being", and "for the time being". "For the time being" is my personal favorite - it has a connotation of both an acceptance of impermanence and a connection to "all things just as it is". Its like finding a fossil on a mountain top: for the time being a fish in the bottom of the ocean, for the time being a stone touching the sky, no separation.

But "uji" is probably best seen as all of those and none of those. It clarified for me after I just let it sit. YMMV. Which brings me to my next comment...

2. For me, I found this to be best explored as an epistemology. E.g. how it is we "know" things, rather than ontological / philosophical truth. I personally do NOT believe Dogen means "being-time" in the same sense as Einstein means "space-time" (e.g. as a description of the structure of the universe). Dogen was a Buddhist teacher. His teachings are an attempt to help us be free of obstructions and fetters. Latching on to uji / being-time as another belief / truth is a new obstruction. Practice it. Eat it. Walk it. What is "time" when you are wandering through memory? What is "time" when you are listening to music? What is "time" when you are in pain? What is "time" when you see a beautiful flower? Where is "beautiful" and "flower" in that moment?

Anyhow, I dunno if that is helpful at all. And I might be way off base. YMMV. Take this all with a grain of salt. [happy]

Gassho,
Sekishi
#sat #forthetimebeing

[Bion]

Hi Matt,

There are some good questions and reflections already in this thread.

1. As others have said, check out Dogen's "Uji" fascicle in Shobogenzo. I am no Dogen scholar, but one thing to keep in mind is that "uji" is a neologism, making it a) difficult to know exactly how Dogen meant it, and b) difficult to translate into modern English. Recent translations include: "being-time", "time-being", "existence-time", "at the time of being", and "for the time being". "For the time being" is my personal favorite - it has a connotation of both an acceptance of impermanence and a connection to "all things just as it is". Its like finding a fossil on a mountain top: for the time being a fish in the bottom of the ocean, for the time being a stone touching the sky, no separation.

But "uji" is probably best seen as all of those and none of those. It clarified for me after I just let it sit. YMMV. Which brings me to my next comment...

2. For me, I found this to be best explored as an epistemology. E.g. how it is we "know" things, rather than ontological / philosophical truth. I personally do NOT believe Dogen means "being-time" in the same sense as Einstein means "space-time" (e.g. as a description of the structure of the universe). Dogen was a Buddhist teacher. His teachings are an attempt to help us be free of obstructions and fetters. Latching on to uji / being-time as another belief / truth is a new obstruction. Practice it. Eat it. Walk it. What is "time" when you are wandering through memory? What is "time" when you are listening to music? What is "time" when you are in pain? What is "time" when you see a beautiful flower? Where is "beautiful" and "flower" in that moment?

Anyhow, I dunno if that is helpful at all. And I might be way off base. YMMV. Take this all with a grain of salt. [happy]

Gassho,
Sekishi
#sat #forthetimebeing

Loved this!

[emoji1374] SatToday

[Ryumon]

It is only ever now.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

[Onka]

Personally I think the mind lives in the now but memories and conditioning taint it. That's why I love this Practice.
Gassho
Onka
Sat today

[Geika]

How we see any object seems to be based on our history/karma, does mind only compare black or white, big or small, this or that? Or can we actually see what is Now without a comparison to reflect it against?

Yes, it just takes a little practice and some letting go-- simply seeing.


We think, "that's a beautiful large coffee mug" but why is it beautiful, what makes it large, how do we know it is a coffee mug.

Beauty is subjective, but there are some universal traits to it, and some nuances depending on culture. This also reflects our past conditioning and instincts, but that is not inherently bad or separate from being with a beautiful object in the moment. In a Japanese tea ceremony, all of the objects involved, like the teacups and the flowers, are meant to inspire a sense of simple beauty. We know a mug is a mug because of past conditioning, but one does not need to drop that knowledge in order to simply regard a lovely mug.


We may think, "I'll make this lump of clay into a large beautiful coffee mug" so are we seeing an object and applying our history/karma to imagine a future Now. 

That may be so, but creating art has been a part of Zen traditions for a long time. Perhaps the only distinction being that instead of setting out with a goal to make something beautiful, we simply create, and beauty arises.


Are either of these Now's really Now, are we in the Now at this very instance of our experience.

Our mind/brain may never be in the Now but we only live in the Now, is this our fundamental dilemma?

Even thoughts of past and future appear in the now. I try to just remind myself to let go of the extra.


Well, we never experience the NOW per se, as it takes fractions of seconds for light and sound to reach us, the senses to perceive and the brain to interpret and then for the mind to assign values and draw from conditioning before a certain version of reality becomes what we experience.

This is also true.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

[Mattg]

This is my first post and I so love everyone's thoughts and perspective, thank you all!

I definitely have some more reading to do and more thought on this Now question.

I wonder what layer of the cake of the Mind occupies most of our thoughts.

gassho

Matt

st

Sat Today

[Margherita]

Hi Matt,
It's an interesting question and I would love to know an absolute answer, I can only give a personal one: it is always now. True that maybe it is not a scientific valid answer, but I believe that at certain point we need to stop asking questions from that kind of perspective and just live the now your brain is feeding you. Maybe... I am not enlightened and not an expert.

Also, Uji in the Shobogenzo answered this question but -oh boy!- I can't wrap my head around it!

Gassho,
Mags
ST

Sent from my SM-J600FN using Tapatalk

[Mattg]

What joy and insight hearing Shobogenzo Uji for the first time......

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9HxQ8rfVrY&t=1178s

Thank you all for the guidance.

:)

Matt st

[Jundo]

Zen folks tend not to be overly analytical about such questions, except to say that much (some radical idealists say all, but I assume that something is "out there") of our experience of the outside world and our "self" within it is largely a mental model of names, categories, colors and textures, aversions and attractions, myriad other judgments and emotional reactions happening between our ears based on incoming raw sense data further based on photons and vibrations from distant atoms converted to electro-chemical signals by the sense organs then interpreted as mental images and reactions inside our own skulls, e.g., a "beautiful green tree filled with sweet apples" is but a cluster of atoms of certain configuration and properties located somewhere (we can only assume) until your eye and tongue and inner mental response interprets all the incoming signals as "beautiful" "green" "sweet" (e.g., photons of a certain wavelength are not "green," and sucrose molecules are not "sweet" without a human eye, tongue and brain to create the experience) and "tree" (as opposed to "flower" or "forest" or "bee"), and likewise for all the things, people and events we experience as life ... and even "past" and "future" are mental models, just ideas, with the "past" but an inner memory poorly recalled, and "future" but imagined scenes of could be, each but the "present" as it was the present then or the present as it might be (and in fact, without "past" or "future," what need even to speak of a "present" or "now"?? ... "now" is such a needless word when truly no other time with which to compare ... )

Don't overly analyze this, but simply get on the sitting cushion and drop away thoughts of past and future AND present too ... know that all time flows back and forth and forth and back into all time, that each moment holds fully each other moment and all moments YET is timeless and goes no where at all ... and also drop away all categories of separate "in here" vs. "out there," dropping away "tree" vs. "flower" vs, "forest" vs. "bee" and your "self" too ... all flowing in and out of each other, and further swept up as a single whole with no "separate things" at all ... then drop away separate colors and textures as white light illuminating a blank campus on which all are but painted scenes ... drop away the aversions and attractions into the peace and wholeness of "just what is" ... drop away coming and going, birth and death ...

Then, getting back up from the sitting cushion, return to a world in which there is past/present/future AND timeless AT ONCE .... past which is not future or present AND future which is just past and present AT ONCE ... trees yet no trees AS ONE ... trees which are bees yet not bees ... likes and dislikes AND total equanimity free of all likes and dislikes IN THE SAME MOMENT ... inside which is apart from outside YET each just two sides of a single face of the other AND ALSO all borders and barriers thoroughly dropped away TOGETHER ... self within the world PLUS neither self nor world PLUS your self which contains the whole world as much as the world contains your self.

Then, just get back to living, fetching water and chopping wood: Although but a dream during summer, the cold winter will soon be here; Cut down some trees for a warming fire, keep others for the delicious apples.

Gassho, J

STLah

(only 4 sentences! :p )

[Bion]

Zen folks tend not to be overly analytical about such questions, except to say that much (some radical idealists say all) of our experience of the outside world and our "self" within it is a mental model of names, categories, colors and textures, aversions and attractions, other judgments and emotional reactions happening between our ears based on incoming sense data, e.g., a "beautiful green tree filled with sweet apples" is but a cluster of atoms of certain configuration and properties located somewhere until your eye and tongue and inner response interprets it as "beautiful" "green" "sweet" (sugar molecules are not "sweet" without a human tongue) and "tree" (as opposed to "flower" or "forest" or "bee" ... and even "past" and "future" are mostly mental models, the "past" an inner memory movie poorly recalled, and "future" but imagined scenes, each but the "present" as it was the present then or the present as it might be (and in fact, without "past" or "future," what need even to speak of a "present" or "now"??)

Don't overly analyze this, but simply get on the sitting cushion and drop away thoughts of past and future AND present too ... know that all time flows back and forth and forth and back into all time, yet is timeless and goes no where at all ... and also drop away all categories of separate "in here" vs. "out there," dropping away "tree" vs. "flower" vs, "forest" vs. "bee" and your "self" too ... all flowing in and out of each other, and further swept up as a single whole with not "separate things" at all ... then drop away separate colors and textures as white light illuminating a blank campus on which all are but painted scenes ... drop away the aversions and attractions into the peace and wholeness of "just what is" ... drop away coming and going, birth and death ...

Then, getting back up from the sitting cushion, return to a world in which there is past/present/future AND timeless AT ONCE .... past which is not future or present AND future which is just past and present AT ONCE ... trees yet no trees AS ONE ... trees which are bees yet not bees ... likes and dislikes AND total equanimity free of all likes and dislikes IN THE SAME MOMENT ... inside which is apart from outside AND all borders and barriers dropped away TOGETHER ... self within the world PLUS neither self nor world PLUS your self which contains the whole world as much as the world contains your self.

Then, just get back to living, fetching water and chopping wood. Although but a dream during summer, the cold winter will soon be here: Cut down some trees for a warming fire, keep others for the delicious apples.

Gassho, J

STLah

(only 4 sentences! :p )

That was a teaching right there!!!! [emoji1374]
I wrote a long reply earlier too and managed to make it exactly 3 sentences long. Proud moment [emoji1787]

SatToday

[Jundo]

PS - I will add this: That vision of a coffee cup you see "now" may be something like a dream, a mental construct made of clay molecules that we have come to interpret by shared social meaning as "vessel" to hold a "hot liquid" ... and maybe you are just seeing molecules you interpret as "coffee cup" (an ant crawling across its surface surely has no idea of either "coffee" or "cup" or even "now") ... and your vision may actually be a processed image of something that happened micro-seconds ago ...

... but it is a real dream, a real dream coffee cup in the real dream now.

So, after Zazen, just enjoy your coffee.

[Mattg]

... but it is a real dream, a real dream coffee cup in the real dream now.

So, after Zazen, just enjoy your coffee.

Your words (even in the 4 sentences :D) gives complexly with simple clarity. gassho2

I'll enjoy my coffee even more after tomorrow's Zazen. [coffee]

[Tairin]

Thank you for the teaching Jundo

gassho2
Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Kyōsen]

Even thoughts of past and future appear in the now.

gassho1

Gassho
Kyōsen
Sat|LAH