Pain and the Self (It's not my pain!)

[gaurdianaq]

I wanted to share an interesting experience I had today, and see if anyone else has experienced something similar.

I was sitting Zazen today with a migraine, not the worst migraine I'd ever had and it felt manageable without needing to take any pain medication. After Zazen I did something that severely aggravated the migraine, it quickly became one of the worst I'd experienced in a long time. And yet, I didn't feel much of an emotional response to it, it did not feel like "my pain", just simply pain that was there. I didn't find myself wishing the pain would go away... I still went and laid down to try and reduce it, and still took an advil... but it was an interesting experience to say the least.

Anyone experience something similar? Doesn't have to specifically be about migraines, just pain in general.

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today!

[Meian]

Hi Evan,

I'm responding as a migraine person of over 30 years .... but, it just is? I think maybe i am so used to living with complicated migraines, I don't think much about them anymore. I have some mild ones, and I have moderate to severe ones that are connected to epilepsy (as I recently learned). But overall, it's become something i live with .... not something personal, I guess. I'm usually just hoping the residual damage is not so bad each time.

I'm glad Advil works for you [emoji4] May the lighter meds and rest always be successful treatments for you. [emoji120]

Gassho, meian st lh

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Naiko]

Hi Evan,
I haven’t had quite that experience, but I attempted to seek it when I was dealing with my own pain. I found myself focusing tightly on the pain which amplified it. Instead I tried to hold that ‘open, spacious awareness’ of Zazen and the pain was just present with everything else, a small part of the universe.
Gassho,
Krista
st/lah

[Tairin]

Hmmm. I get migraines every few months. I don’t think I’d even attempt sitting if I had one. I’ve certainly never felt like I was detached from them at all.

gassho2
Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Ryumon]

I have a compressed nerve in my spine that can be very painful. About a dozen years ago, the pain was like a knife in my back. Drugs muted it a bit, but the only way I could calm it - in the sense that it was there but I wasn't allowing it to take over - was to think of it as not part of me, to allow it to be without my amplifying it. I have only had pain at that level a few times in recent years, but some drugs, a heating pad, and some serious attention to the pain, in a way of not attending it, is the only thing that makes it bearable.

I could never sit with that pain, though, because sitting would exacerbate it.

Gassho,

Kirk

sat

[Jundo]

I have had such times, not with a migraine (I am spared those), but with other physical pain ... such as after my big operation a couple of years ago, when I spent some days feeling like a horse had kicked me in the chest. Sometimes the pain was there, but just as another thing in the room, not being run from or pushed away.

That said, it was not like that at other times, so when moaning just moan, when curled up in a fetal position just be curled, when wishing the damn pain would stop as you squeeze the sheets just damn wish and squeeze. That is okay too as we are human, even the Buddha and Dogen sometimes experiences such times (the Buddha wrote about it and his need to go off into a deep trance to escape the pain in those days before advil, and the big blank at the end of the unfinished Shobogenzo is because Dogen was too sick to write), and that is just what is in the moment too.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLentAHand

(a little over three sentence, apologies)

[StoBird]

...we are human...


“The Zen of Master Dogen is not the wish to become more than human, a special being, Buddha or God.
No more is it the hope to have a vision of emptiness, nor to perform miracles.
It is to return to the normal condition of the human mind.“

-From the notebook of Kodo Sawaki

I assume that just being curled up in the fetal position as just being curled etc... is to say that when things are so unavoidably painful that avoiding the second (or third, or fourth...) arrow of dukkha IS the practice in and of itself and one can be forgiven for not aiming for the whole, complete, peaceful equanimity of normal Shikantaza.

Gassho,

Tom

Sat/lah

[Jundo]

I assume that just being curled up in the fetal position as just being curled etc... is to say that when things are so unavoidably painful that avoiding the second (or third, or fourth...) arrow of dukkha IS the practice in and of itself and one can be forgiven for not aiming for the whole, complete, peaceful equanimity of normal Shikantaza.



In that moment, it was lovely crying, teeth gritting, fetal position, "I want this to stop" shikantaza ... fully embracing and flowing with crying, teeth gritting, fetal position, and "I want this to stop" while not flowing and embracing at all.

One of the wonderful wise-mysteries of Shikantaza is that sometimes we can embrace, be at peace and flow with even those moments when we cannot embrace, be at peace and flow at all.

The result I can only describe as embracing-non-embracing, peaceful no peaceful, flowing while blocked ... heaven and hell and in between just one.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

PS - Migraines were mentioned today on another thread ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?18034-Hearing-bells&p=267642&viewfull=1#post267642

[StoBird]

In that moment, it was lovely crying, teeth gritting, fetal position, "I want this to stop" shikantaza ... fully embracing and flowing with crying, teeth gritting, fetal position, and "I want this to stop" while not flowing and embracing at all.

One of the wonderful wise-mysteries of Shikantaza is that sometimes we can embrace, be at peace and flow with even those moments when we cannot embrace, be at peace and flow at all.

The result I can only describe as embracing-non-embracing, peaceful no peaceful, flowing while blocked ... heaven and hell and in between just one.

Gassho, J

STLah

I see. The same trust in wholeness and completeness sat in Zazen embraces even our most painful experiences. That is comforting to know (or trust/have faith in).

Gassho,
Tom

Sat/Lah

[Jundo]

I see. The same trust in wholeness and completeness sat in Zazen embraces even our most painful experiences. That is comforting to know (or trust/have faith in).

Gassho,
Tom

Sat/Lah

I feel that it even embraces not trusting sometimes, and having doubt: Flowing and embracing even those times when we don't trust in flowing and embracing.

Shikantaza is a like the clouds that sometimes cover the sun and open blue sky, yet we trust that the sun and blue sky are still present though temporarily unseen. Well, Shikantaza is a trust that embraces even those days when we are convinced that the sun and blue sky are gone forever or never were.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tomás ESP]

I wanted to share an interesting experience I had today, and see if anyone else has experienced something similar.

I was sitting Zazen today with a migraine, not the worst migraine I'd ever had and it felt manageable without needing to take any pain medication. After Zazen I did something that severely aggravated the migraine, it quickly became one of the worst I'd experienced in a long time. And yet, I didn't feel much of an emotional response to it, it did not feel like "my pain", just simply pain that was there. I didn't find myself wishing the pain would go away... I still went and laid down to try and reduce it, and still took an advil... but it was an interesting experience to say the least.

Anyone experience something similar? Doesn't have to specifically be about migraines, just pain in general.

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today!

As someone who has been dealing with chronic pain since I was 16, this has only happened a few times in my life. The common elements in those few times was that I was totally open, curious and accepting of the pain. It was as if the second arrow, the arrow of suffering, had been released, even if for a few minutes. There were just the physical sensations as they were, without a personal label.

Gassho,
Sat

[StoBird]

I deleted my long rambling question of my monkey mind. I request the “encouragement stick.” gassho1

Gassho,
Tom

Sat

[Risho]

I wanted to share an interesting experience I had today, and see if anyone else has experienced something similar.

I was sitting Zazen today with a migraine, not the worst migraine I'd ever had and it felt manageable without needing to take any pain medication. After Zazen I did something that severely aggravated the migraine, it quickly became one of the worst I'd experienced in a long time. And yet, I didn't feel much of an emotional response to it, it did not feel like "my pain", just simply pain that was there. I didn't find myself wishing the pain would go away... I still went and laid down to try and reduce it, and still took an advil... but it was an interesting experience to say the least.

Anyone experience something similar? Doesn't have to specifically be about migraines, just pain in general.

gassho1
Evan,
Sat today!

Sidetopic - be careful with those NSAID's like Advil

Gassho

Rish
-stlah

[nknibbs]

There is a biological reason for pain to be sure— it’s a mechanism of survival. But, when we inevitably tack on an emotional response to that pain, it becomes augmented and monstrous where before it was “sensation.” We make catastrophe where there is none.

Gassho,
Nick

[Jundo]

I deleted my long rambling question of my monkey mind. I request the “encouragement stick.” gassho1

Gassho,
Tom

Sat

I was just going to say to you comment that, whether one calls it "certainty" or "trust" or even "faith" (some folks find that last word carries some psychological baggage for them), be certain that there is a mirror that hold it all ... even mental and physical pain ... free of "mind creating noise, bias, judgements."

But don't get so tangled in the words of what you call it. More important to feel and know so, to experience so personally, than what we call so.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

There is a biological reason for pain to be sure— it’s a mechanism of survival. But, when we inevitably tack on an emotional response to that pain, it becomes augmented and monstrous where before it was “sensation.” We make catastrophe where there is none.

Gassho,
Nick

Yes, this is true. But personally, I am okay even with people tacking on an emotional response (such as some fear, grief, disappointment) to a bad health condition or other painful condition in life (e.g., grief in the face of the death of a loved one) if they experience equanimity, allowing and flowing ABOUT the fear, grief and disappointment. There is a difference between (1) feeling some natural and passing fear, grief, resentment and resistance to a condition and (2) feeling additional fear, grief, resentment and resistance about feeling fear, grief, resentment and resistance.

It is okay to be human and react in human ways, and we need not be numbed or tranquilized emotional robots, and I think that fear and sadness are just part of being human (the only trouble is when fear and sadness run to true harmful excess as, for example, panic disorders or lingering and destructive depression). I think that a close reading of the old Suttas and writings show that even folks like the Buddha and Dogen felt sad and disappointed at life circumstances sometimes (e.g., the Buddha, by the way, is said to have experienced migraines and sadness in the face of the destruction of his clan in a war, even though his later followers tried to explain the story away a bit: https://www.academia.edu/30061724/Chinese_Versions_of_Virudhakas_Massacre_of_the_Sha kyan and http://venyifa.blogspot.com/2008/09/story-of-prince-virudhaka-massacre-of.html )

Please feel equanimity about not always feeling equanimity, not afraid to be afraid sometimes, and be content to be sad somtimes, as if witnessing one's momentary grief or fear as just another passing cloud through the mind, or another passing piece of scenery.

Gassho, J

STLah

(Sorry, a bit more than three lines).

[Jundo]

PS - About the Buddha's migraines and the ways his followers sought to explain them ...

https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/Texts-and-Translations/Connection-with-Previous-Deeds/09-A-Headache.htm

https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/English-Texts/Why-the-Buddha-Suffered/index.htm

[nknibbs]

Agreed— yet there is a space between feeling and feeling about feeling that I often find my patients in (and myself for that matter at times). Taking that emotion and associating the emotion with the pain/condition. Attaching the two and attaching a portion of one’s existence to that attachment.

Some become defined by their pain/suffering.

Not to derail this thread, but you touched on something I’ve been thinking about recently about practice and equanimity. Something I need to work on. Thank you, Jundo Roshi.

Gassho,
Nick

(I tried keeping it to 3 lines — but I’m feeling some equanimity about that)

[Jundo]

Agreed— yet there is a space between feeling and feeling about feeling that I often find my patients in (and myself for that matter at times). Taking that emotion and associating the emotion with the pain/condition. Attaching the two and attaching a portion of one’s existence to that attachment.


What has really helped me is learning to encounter emotions differently:

Rather than (1) I am feeling sad and resentful because the world really stinks and my resentment is justified, so let me grab on to it and really wallow in it more and buy into it, it has become (2) I am temporarily feeling in my mind passing sadness or resentment because of a condition, but I need not, it can change to a different emotion in the next instant, it is all passing theatre on the stage of the mind and not defining of what the situation actually is, no need to grab on, play its game, stir it up or wallow more, so let it just pass on through.

It really makes the encounter with passing emotions quite different than before.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Meian]

What has really helped me is learning to encounter emotions differently:

Rather than (1) I am feeling sad and resentful because the world really stinks and my resentment is justified, so let me grab on to it and really wallow in it more and buy into it, it has become (2) I am temporarily feeling in my mind passing sadness or resentment because of a condition, but I need not, it can change to a different emotion in the next instant, it is all passing theatre on the stage of the mind and not defining of what the situation actually is, no need to grab on, play its game, stir it up or wallow more, so let it just pass on through.

It really makes the encounter with passing emotions quite different than before.

Gassho, J

STLahThis is really helpful, Jundo, thank you.

Gassho2, meian st

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[Meian]

speaking of this topic of pain, zen, emotions .....

at an appt with a doctor that i actually like and respect, had a discussion about this topic -- the influence and impact of emotions on our physical well-being.

we had a little disagreement on this issue. he noticed that i was wearing arthritis compression gloves (weird chilly/rainy week in August), so he commented on it. our disagreement was whether controlling one's emotions (remaining positive and happy) would heal the body and remove the pain, or whether certain physical ailments exist as they are, and we accept them as they are, while doing our best to take appropriate care of ourselves. the challenge, as has been discussed here already, is avoiding the trap of depression, excessive anxiety, and despair over one's circumstances in life.

I do not believe in false positivity, or "think happy thoughts and all will be well." however, i am all too familiar with the impact one's mind space can have on one's physical health.

my reply was that my joints and other things and swell whether i am happy, sad, angry, giddy, laughing, tired, worried, blissful, excited -- no matter how I am feeling. The pain doesn't stop, only worsens sometimes. Other parts of me feel better depending on various factors, including my mind space, and I am always working on that. But the physical pain -- ooohhh, it lets me know. But it's something i live with, so it just is. that is another matter entirely -- acceptance. Do I like the pain? Of course not. But it's there. Oh well, lol.

So we differed on the concept of acceptance -- and the reality that certain types of fatigue, you can't simply push through or "think positive" away. It just isn't so.

gassho2, meian st lh

[Onka]

speaking of this topic of pain, zen, emotions .....

at an appt with a doctor that i actually like and respect, had a discussion about this topic -- the influence and impact of emotions on our physical well-being.

we had a little disagreement on this issue. he noticed that i was wearing arthritis compression gloves (weird chilly/rainy week in August), so he commented on it. our disagreement was whether controlling one's emotions (remaining positive and happy) would heal the body and remove the pain, or whether certain physical ailments exist as they are, and we accept them as they are, while doing our best to take appropriate care of ourselves. the challenge, as has been discussed here already, is avoiding the trap of depression, excessive anxiety, and despair over one's circumstances in life.

I do not believe in false positivity, or "think happy thoughts and all will be well." however, i am all too familiar with the impact one's mind space can have on one's physical health.

my reply was that my joints and other things and swell whether i am happy, sad, angry, giddy, laughing, tired, worried, blissful, excited -- no matter how I am feeling. The pain doesn't stop, only worsens sometimes. Other parts of me feel better depending on various factors, including my mind space, and I am always working on that. But the physical pain -- ooohhh, it lets me know. But it's something i live with, so it just is. that is another matter entirely -- acceptance. Do I like the pain? Of course not. But it's there. Oh well, lol.

So we differed on the concept of acceptance -- and the reality that certain types of fatigue, you can't simply push through or "think positive" away. It just isn't so.

gassho2, meian st lh

Acceptance. Yes! And I agree that despite neuroplasticity, psychiatric and neurological understandings of the link between physical pain and the management of that via psychological understandings life is never going to be rainbows and unicorns for most folk. TBH I think the folk that peddle positivity fixing all are either extremely fortunate or live with their head up their own arse. Acceptance is the cornerstone of my Zazen Practice and it feels great to feel rubbish rather than try to mask or escape the challenges life throws at me.
Gassho
Onka
ST