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View Full Version : Realizing Genjokoan - Chapter 7 - P 98 to End



Jundo
03-09-2020, 01:50 AM
Dear Fellow Sailors,

I believe a major aspect of this Way is to realize the "feedback loop" of ourself and the world that is our being in life. I sometimes use the image of a bicycle (Dogen has his boat). You may think that "you" are riding a bike (your life) down a road (time) which is passing scenery (this world). But, for Zen bikers, rider and road, bike and peddling, riding and scenery are one whole. The bike and road ride you as you ride the bike down the road. Scenery brings movement to you as you move past the scenery, and really, scene and seer are not apart. As you ride the bike past the beautiful and sometimes ugly scenes of life, the bike rides you, riding scenes you, road yous the scenes. Like that. The whole brings you to life as you bring the ride to life ... Only bikingyouingsceneingroadingpeddling ... and it is all one wild ride! [monk]

In between, we just try to stay on, keep balance, not fall on our asses into the mud. :p However, even the sometimes hard gravel and mud are part of this too.

Gassho, J

STLah

Kotei
03-09-2020, 10:41 AM
Hello,

again, the relative and the absolute...

The boat is moving relative to the shore. The shore is moving relative to the boat. If the passenger is walking up and down the boat, she is moving, but not in relation to the boat and in relation to the shore only, if she is walking in the direction of the boat's moving. If she walks against the direction of the boat, she might not be moving relative to the shore at all, while she is moving with the boat that is moving relative to the shore at the same time.
The whole scenery is moving with the rotation of the earth with 1670 km/h (464 meters per second)
while the earth is moving with 108000 km/h (30 kilometres per second) around the sun.
The sun with the earth (and our boat scenery) and all other planets is moving with 792000 km/h (220 kilometres per second) around the center of our galaxy.
Relative to the next aggregation of galaxies and the Sloan Great Wall (another galaxy aggregation), our galaxy is dragged towards them with around 630 kilometres per second which is around 2 million km/h.
In a default lifespan of 80 years, that would be around 1 402 530 000 000 kilometres movement, while not moving at all and sitting still in front of the computer.

In an absolute view, there is no passing time, because there is only now.
There is no movement, because movement is change of position during time passing.
There is only the scenery of passenger on the boat and the shore and the ocean and the sun.
There is the 'Time' of the traveller and the boat and the ocean and the shore and everything else, interacting.

Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

Seibu
03-09-2020, 09:01 PM
Dear Fellow Sailors,

I believe a major aspect of this Way is to realize the "feedback loop" of ourself and the world that is our being in life. I sometimes use the image of a bicycle (Dogen has his boat). You may think that "you" are riding a bike (your life) down a road (time) which is passing scenery (this world). But, for Zen bikers, rider and road, bike and peddling, riding and scenery are one whole. The bike and road ride you as you ride the bike down the road. Scenery brings movement to you as you move past the scenery, and really, scene and seer are not apart. As you ride the bike past the beautiful and sometimes ugly scenes of life, the bike rides you, riding scenes you, road yous the scenes. Like that. The whole brings you to life as you bring the ride to life ... Only bikingyouingsceneingroadingpeddling ... and it is all one wild ride! [monk]

In between, we just try to stay on, keep balance, not fall on our asses into the mud. :p However, even the sometimes hard gravel and mud are part of this too.

Gassho, J

STLah

While driving (it was very quiet on the road in the morning) I thought about the other analogy of driving a car and how the road, the car, the driver, and all the other aspects involved are necessary to experience driving. Gradually it starts to make sense while being aware of the interconnectedness of everything. gassho2

Gassho,
Seibu
Sattoday/lah

Jundo
03-09-2020, 09:48 PM
While driving (it was very quiet on the road in the morning) I thought about the other analogy of driving a car and how the road, the car, the driver, and all the other aspects involved are necessary to experience driving. Gradually it starts to make sense while being aware of the interconnectedness of everything. gassho2

Gassho,
Seibu
Sattoday/lah

Yes, but don't think about it too much while driving. Pay attention to the road, or you may run into, and discover the limitations of, that "not two" pedestrian or fence you hit! [scared]


interconnectedness of everything

Yes, "interconnectedness" but also "interidentity" ... as much as Seibu's nose and heart, thoughts and memories, steps and gestures, toes and each strand of hair on his head are this "Seibu" fellow. [monk]

Gassho, J

STLah

Seibu
03-09-2020, 10:14 PM
Thank you Jundo gassho1.

Gassho,
Seibu
Sattoday/lah

Tairin
03-14-2020, 04:31 PM
Chapter 7 contains two of my favourite stories. The poem of the wind bell and the story of the monks observing the flag in the wind.

The whole section reminds me of this


No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man - Heraclitus

The whole discussion of impermanence makes a lot of sense and is entirely observable. Okumura used the example of a picture of himself as a child. We all do it. ďThatís me!Ē But the reality is that isnít me. Mountains change, rivers change. Even this current worry about COVID19 will change.

Personally I find something comforting about the fact that nothing is permanent..... although perhaps that is delusion.

gassho2
Tairin
Sat today and lah

PaulinLondon
03-15-2020, 08:08 AM
Agree with all of these comments. I think interconnectedness and impermanence will be brought to a real focus over the next few weeks across the globe with the spread of covid19. Some of this chapter was about trying to explain an apparent contradiction in Dogen's writing. As a relative newbee to Dogen compared to other friends on here, does this happen often in his writing? I found the explanation of the contradiction difficult to understand.
Gassho
Paul
Sat today, lah

Heiso
03-21-2020, 08:35 AM
I felt dizzy after reading that chapter. So much movement.

I don't have a huge amount to add but as Kotei says it's absolute and relative again. In the absolute everything is moving in an interconnected way but relatively it appears the buildings stay still as I pedal by on my bike.

And I like the monks watching flags story too, Tairin. It makes me picture two guys having a conversation along the lines of 'dude, are like the flags moving or is it totally the sky moving?'

Gassho,

Heiso

StLah

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