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Jundo
01-10-2019, 04:34 PM
It is interesting that Buddhists express such varied interpretations of "emptiness" in things I read, from those who seem very materialistic in their description (x thing does not stand without dependence on other things), to those who seem to take it literally to mean "empty" (like an empty cup), to those who seem to take it to mean just a state when the mind is freed of ideas, and other such limited interpretations.

Hmmm. I would not sell it short as just that. .

I would propose that the traditional flavor and experience of "emptiness" in Zen Buddhism is nothing less than the grocking (profound first hand knowing from deep in the bones) of the radical interpenetration and interflowing of any and all things, moments of time, people and places and spaces and traces in all the universe (and them some), both that which is and which could be, in and out and as each other, with the complete dropping of the self/other divide (even as our sense of being our "self" in a world of things apart from our "me" need not vanish in all ways). ever moving and changing beyond and right through all comings and goings and birth and death and war and peace and all beauty or ugliness, like a great dance in which we and all things and times are the dance itself, and the dance just us, all dancing dancing dancing ... in other words, Kensho, Satori, a joyously "mystical" (for want of a better word) knowing of the deep interflowing and interidentity of everything and anything and then some ... that you are I are the Whole Enchildada and each little enchilada, and all is each and each just all beyond "each" or "all." .

Please pardon me, because words never ever can do justice to these things, which explains all of Dogen's wild Shobogenzo riffing.

But don't sell it short. That old joke about the Zen Master ordering a hot dog "Make Me One With Everything" has some tasty truth.

Gassho, J

STLah

Shingen
01-10-2019, 08:40 PM
Very nice expression of emptiness Jundo, thank you. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

Troy
01-10-2019, 08:54 PM
I agree Jundo [emoji4]

Sat2day

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Junkyo
01-10-2019, 09:04 PM
Thank you for your teaching Jundo,

My understanding has always been that everything is "empty" of an independent, permanent self. All things (people, plants, rocks, phenomena, thoughts.... etc.) arise dependant on other things (causes/conditions/phenomena etc.) and due to their impermanent nature, eventually pass away as the causes and conditions that lead to their arising cease.

I really like your expanded explanation! I find emptiness an interesting topic. My first teacher Sensei Michael Hiyashi did his masters thesis on the topic of Emptiness and he loved to discuss it at length!

Gassho,

Rob

SAT


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Shinshi
01-10-2019, 09:11 PM
Thank you Jundo. I am going to have to work with this a bit. Dance the empty dance. :)

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

Anka
01-10-2019, 10:00 PM
Gassho
James F
SAT lah

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Koki
01-10-2019, 10:00 PM
Gassho

Frank (Kunzang)
Satoday

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Shokai
01-11-2019, 02:00 AM
Different streams flow in the darkness, never really catching the whole picture. Best just to enjoy the stillness and dance. Thank you Jundo, each time we revisit emptiness a new facet appears. gassho2

Gassho, Shokai
stlah

Jakuden
01-11-2019, 02:41 AM
Thank you Jundo. Funny, I usually replace the word “emptiness” in my head with “everything-ness,” it just seemed to work better, maybe I wasn’t too far off base!?

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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Jundo
01-11-2019, 02:48 AM
:encouragement: That works too.

Dogen called it "the Whole Works" (Zenki).

Gassho, J

STLah

Geika
01-11-2019, 07:21 PM
I can grok it, thanks Jundo.

Gassho, sat today, lah

Kyonin
01-11-2019, 08:29 PM
Thank you Jundo.

You reminded me of two quotes from Master Bodhidharma:


“At every moment where language can't go, that's your mind.”


“People of this world are deluded. They’re always longing for something-always, in a word, seeking. But the wise wake up. They choose reason over custom. They fix their minds on the sublime and let their bodies change with the seasons. All phenomena are empty. They contain nothing worth desiring.”

Gassho,

Kyonin

jgotthart
01-12-2019, 06:22 AM
A lovely way to put it Jundo.

Gassho,
John
SatToday

jgotthart
01-12-2019, 06:29 AM
A lovely way to put it Jundo.

Gassho,
John
SatToday

Washin
01-12-2019, 12:41 PM
Good expression. Thank you Jundo gassho1


I usually replace the word “emptiness” in my head with “everything-ness,”
Jakuden, I like this, and have been using this approach too. "Everythingness" helps to prevent
me from thinking of emptiness as something void and being lack of potential also from seeing
it as a mere phenomenon.

Gassho,
Washin
sat today

sosen
01-19-2019, 12:57 AM
thank you Jundo

_()_
sosen
st/lah

Getchi
01-22-2019, 12:04 AM
Thankyou Jundo, this was beautiful.


Gassho,
Geoff.

SatToday/LaH





Please pardon me, because words never ever can do justice to these things, which explains all of Dogen's wild Shobogenzo riffing.

But don't sell it short. That old joke about the Zen Master ordering a hot dog "Make Me One With Everything" has some tasty truth.

Gassho, J

STLah

Asking for change, the vendor replies "True change comes from within". :D

Doshin
01-22-2019, 03:58 PM
Jundo

Grocking is an interesting word. Don’t remember coming across it before so looked it up. My first reaction due my science training and life experiences makes me very suspicious when people grock. I could go on about politicians who do it to deny science but I won’t ;). However in the way you use it to connect with emptiness it resonates well and helps me. So thank you.

Gassho
Doshin
St

Ryushi
01-22-2019, 09:46 PM
For non-sci-fi geeks, "Grok" was coined by Robert Heinlein for one of his sci-fi novels from the early 1960s. The original intent is fascinating, as is the subsequent dissemination into wider culture. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grok)