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Jundo
08-26-2018, 05:32 PM
I am sorry to say that there is more sex and other scandal reported in the greater western Buddhist Sangha this week ...

Against the Stream confirms sexual misconduct by Noah Levine; centers to shut down

An article on the scandal here ...

https://jezebel.com/a-murky-scandal-involving-a-powerful-punk-rock-dharma-t-1827742746

In an even more serious scandal, "Shambhala" is in crisis, with rumors of their "King" (I did not realize how much it is run as an actual "Kingdom"), Trungpa's son, recreating his dad's ways of alcohol and sexual assault. I spent a few hours with the investigative reports, and it is quite ugly (the part about underage girls has not been confirmed, but the parts confirmed are ugly enough) ...

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/11/nyregion/shambhala-sexual-misconduct.html

This, of course, follows another similar scandal in Tibetan Buddhism this year with Sogyal ...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/sexual-assaults-violent-rages-inside-dark-world-buddhist-teacher/

If anyone would like to know my feelings about these scandals that manifest too frequently, they are here ... not a simple matter ...

SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Sex Scandal Finger Wagging
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?10071-SIT-A-LONG-with-JUNDO-Sex-Scandal-Finger-Wagging

More here ...

Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - IX (Bad Roshis)
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6878-Jundo-Tackles-the-BIG-Questions-IX-%28Bad-Roshis%29

Don't forget the hundreds of Buddhists teachers who are out there helping folks, getting no headlines because they are doing no harm and causing no scandals.

It is a fitting topic as we enter our Precept reflections for Jukai (including the Precepts on Not Misusing Sexuality and not Criticizing Other Buddhists ... the latter, in my opinion, not including necessary and constructive criticism).

Gassho with Sadness, J

SatTodayLAH

PS - I am glad we are pretty boring and basically harmless in this Treeleaf place.

Shinshi
08-26-2018, 06:19 PM
Both of these just really got me going this week. Poor Jundo had to endure a rant from me about the Noah Levine situation. Coming from a punk background like Noah I kind of resonated with his story - even though I found his books a bit over the top. And I had just been reading Gesshin Claire Greenwood's account of her own experience of this when the news came down. And it got me kind of worked up.

I think that Jundo's point about all the great people out there doing good work is really important. But I also posted in the Facebook Soto Zen page that, personally, I think that a more active approach needs to be considered. I think it isn't enough that policies and Codes of Conduct are created. I think they get look at and filed away. I think Teachers really need to look at proactive training about how to handle these issues. Something that is ongoing.

I think some of these people are predators. But I think some just don't recognize the power disparity and how that can play into situations like this. And both parties think they are feeling something real when, in fact, it is about a lot more than true emotions. This comes up in other areas, Educational Institutions, Psychological Therapy, etc. Psychologists recognize this issue and have specific training about it - at least my program did.

Anyway, the thing that gets me worked up is that you have people entering a situation where they should be safe, and where there is attention paid to make sure they are not vulnerable to exploitation. Instead they are exploited - and I can't imagine what a betrayal that must be. To be afraid to speak out, to tell your experience in a place where you have gone to try to become the best person you could be. Instead that institution breaks you down.

Ok, I am ranting again. Much metta to all. Wish there was more I could do.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

Jishin
08-26-2018, 06:28 PM
We are all bad. We are all good.


"He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

"Or how can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye"

"Don't judge lest you be judged."

"When a finger points, 3 point back."

Teachers are held to higher standards but they are humans.

All humans are capable of bad acts. The bad deeds need to be addressed to ensure they are not repeated.

You can not not teach and you can not not learn. I am sure these teachers have done something right.

My 2 cents.


Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Mp
08-26-2018, 07:25 PM
We all make mistakes, that is part of being human. Sometimes we know what we are doing, sometimes we don't. Either we have to take responsibility for our actions regardless.

It does however make me sad and somewhat angry that humans exploit other humans. We do need to stop doing this. I know out precepts speak of not judging others, but I do feel it is important to judge folks on their actions if they arw doing harm ... If we don't, how will things change for the better?

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

Zenmei
08-26-2018, 11:01 PM
As I’ve mentioned before, Refuge Recovery is the reason I’m here. I got sober nearly 3 years ago with the help of Refuge Recovery. I’ve started 2 Refuge groups and facilitated a meeting every week for the past 2 and a half years. Until I found Treeleaf, Refuge was my primary Buddhist practice. So this has been a big part of my life for a while now. I don’t think it’s exaggerating to say I wouldn’t be here if I hadn’t read Noah’s book when I did. And I know the same is true for thousands of addicts who have been helped by the book that has his name on it and the organization he founded.

I have a lot of feelings about it. Right this second, it’s a lot of anger. Noah was in a position to help so many people, and he squandered it. I don’t know the details of his misconduct, the allegations were never made public, but his reaction to them and his actions since show pretty clearly that he’s more interested in helping himself than in helping the community. Right or wrong, a lot of folks in a very vulnerable state did look to him as a source of wisdom, and now they’re left wondering what to do.

[emoji120], Zenmei (sat/lah)

Jishin
08-26-2018, 11:13 PM
I have a lot of feelings about it. Right this second, it’s a lot of anger. Noah was in a position to help so many people, and he squandered it. I don’t know the details of his misconduct, the allegations were never made public, but his reaction to them and his actions since show pretty clearly that he’s more interested in helping himself than in helping the community. Right or wrong, a lot of folks in a very vulnerable state did look to him as a source of wisdom, and now they’re left wondering what to do.

[emoji120], Zenmei (sat/lah)

He still in a position to help a lot of people. Maybe more so then before. He can recover and then teach recovery.

In 12 step meetings a senior member sometimes agrees to sponsor a junior member. Senior falls down and then junior is the new senior who sponsors the new junior.

Senior and junior are both adults and both vulnerable.

It can be an opportunity for growth.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Zenmei
08-26-2018, 11:15 PM
He still in a position to help a lot of people. Maybe more so then before. He can recover and then teach recovery.


Totally agree. As I just said in the Refuge FB group, the ball’s in his court.

[emoji120], Zenmei (sat/lah)

Jundo
08-27-2018, 12:17 AM
As I’ve mentioned before, Refuge Recovery is the reason I’m here. I got sober nearly 3 years ago with the help of Refuge Recovery. I’ve started 2 Refuge groups and facilitated a meeting every week for the past 2 and a half years. Until I found Treeleaf, Refuge was my primary Buddhist practice. So this has been a big part of my life for a while now. I don’t think it’s exaggerating to say I wouldn’t be here if I hadn’t read Noah’s book when I did. And I know the same is true for thousands of addicts who have been helped by the book that has his name on it and the organization he founded.

I have a lot of feelings about it. Right this second, it’s a lot of anger. Noah was in a position to help so many people, and he squandered it. I don’t know the details of his misconduct, the allegations were never made public, but his reaction to them and his actions since show pretty clearly that he’s more interested in helping himself than in helping the community. Right or wrong, a lot of folks in a very vulnerable state did look to him as a source of wisdom, and now they’re left wondering what to do.

[emoji120], Zenmei (sat/lah)

He fell down. He should immediately get back up again, reflect and make amends, start from "Day 1."

Is that not the way of refuge and recovery?

Apparently, he got over the drugs and drink, but still had sex issues. I think that getting over the drugs and drink alone is reason to celebrate, even if he obviously had remaining and serious failings in other aspects of his life and psychology. He is not and never was a "saint," only a flawed human being who found a path to getting over most (not all) of his flaws. He let people and himself down in some (not all) ways. He obviously needs a bit more work in other aspects. I anticipate that he will come through this with time. I am most concerned for anyone else, such as you express, who might feel let down somehow. That is not an excuse for saying that the program was not a success even though some battles were lost.

Let me also caution that me do not yet know the details of what transpired.

Let us sit and offer Metta for anyone else, innocent bystanders, who might be hurt in some way too.

Gassho, J

STLah

Shinshi
08-27-2018, 12:36 AM
He fell down. He should immediately get back up again, reflect and make amends, start from "Day 1."

Is that not the way of refuge and recovery?

Apparently, he got over the drugs and drink, but still had sex issues. I think that getting over the drugs and drink alone is reason to celebrate, even if he obviously had remaining and serious failings in other aspects of his life and psychology. He is not and never was a "saint," only a flawed human being who found a path to getting over most (not all) of his flaws. He let people and himself down in some (not all) ways. He obviously needs a bit more work in other aspects. I anticipate that he will come through this with time. I am most concerned for anyone else, such as you express, who might feel let down somehow. That is not an excuse for saying that the program was not a success even though some battles were lost.

Let me also caution that me do not yet know the details of what transpired.

Let us sit and offer Metta for anyone else, innocent bystanders, who might be hurt in some way too.

Gassho, J

STLah

Thank you Jundo. gassho2

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

Jundo
08-27-2018, 02:28 AM
Let me add this, perhaps dangerous to say in this wonderful time when #metoo is front and center (as it should have been long ago).

Not all these scandals are the same.

Fortunately, as far as I know, there have been no cases in the Zen world of child abuse that have come to light. I see no evidence that, like the Catholic Church, pedophiles are particularly drawn to Buddhism as their were to the Catholic clergy. There have been cases that appear to involve young monastic boys in the traditional Tibetan world even recently, and it may have gone on between monks and young acolytes in the Zen monasteries in centuries past (however, as disgusting as it is to us, especially in modern times, it was more socially acceptable in ancient times in Asia. That is just a fact. Fortunately, it is now not acceptable.). I am not saying that such people are not out there now, but I know of no such cases.

There have been few cases in the Soto Zen world apart from Baker Roshi of SFZC, whose falling down was an affair with a married woman who was a student and the wife of a friend, and who was otherwise a bit of a megalomaniac. I don't believe that he slept with other students except that one case. Sorry, I think it is wrong that we include that scandal, apparently between consenting and mature adults, in the same basket as others even if it is wrong to sleep with a student.

Maezumi Roshi was an alcoholic (a medical condition that even Buddhist masters can suffer) who, especially when drunk, slept with several female students. Katagiri Roshi seems to have gotten sexually involved with a student or students at a certain period.

Affairs between balanced, mature, free thinking, consenting adults are one thing even if students (grown adults sometimes fall in love, but even so, I do not believe it should be permitted during an ongoing teacher-student relationship even then. Most Zen Sangha now have a 6 month cooling off period after the teacher-student relationship ends.). Taking advantage of the position and weight of being teacher to manipulate psychologically vulnerable students is another thing altogether. The cases are not the same, although both unacceptable.

At the other extreme, the Rinzai teachers Shimano and Sasaki engaged in groping, coercion of the psychologically vulnerable, that went on for decades.

Trungpa and his son, in their "Shambhala" Kingdom, and this Sogyal fellow, were really out of control with alcohol, sexual and psychological abuse.

https://konchok.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/sawang.jpghttps://approachingaro.org/images/400x514_vctr_riding_uniform.jpg

Do not lump Baker Roshi with the rapists and abusers, for example.

We do not know yet where Noah Levine falls on this scale.

As well, do not forget the hundreds of good teachers who cause no harm, live gently and only help sentient beings, so grab no headlines. Sorry, a few bad apples do not spoil the orchard. Some may disagree.

Nonetheless, let us never let our guard down, and let us continue to study and live the Precepts to keep us from doing harm to self and others.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Kyoshin
08-27-2018, 05:21 AM
Personally, as disappointed as I am that Noah Levine seems to have engaged in sexual misconduct, I'm even more disappointed that his organization, which by all accounts has done great work, is shutting down because one guy acted like jerk. I would have hoped that they could follow the example of the Lance Armstrong Foundation, when they booted Lance, changed their name, and kept right on doing good work.
Gassho
Nick
Sat

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Jundo
08-27-2018, 05:24 AM
Personally, as disappointed as I am that Noah Levine seems to have engaged in sexual misconduct, I'm even more disappointed that his organization, which by all accounts has done great work, is shutting down because one guy acted like jerk. I would have hoped that they could follow the example of the Lance Armstrong Foundation, when they booted Lance, changed their name, and kept right on doing good work.
Gassho
Nick
Sat

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I have the feeling that is really what will happen, but with folks going various directions.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

Jippou
08-27-2018, 05:28 AM
As a Catholic I’m so disgusted by the Church hierarchy I am looking to leave. The question for me is to try to find another Christian community to join or to do Jukai with you all and take the precepts focus on my meditation practice. These scandals aren’t helping me either, but as Jundo points out, they seem to be on a different scale of magnitude. I am going to check out an unprogrammed Quaker meeting near me and see how that goes. Between what’s going on in the Catholic Church and the US Government I’ve become so disillusioned with power and hierarchy I don’t even know to start. Some tough decision to make and not a lot of time in which to make them.

Gassho
Sat Today, Jason


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Jundo
08-27-2018, 05:35 AM
... I am going to check out an unprogrammed Quaker meeting near me and see how that goes. Between what’s going on in the Catholic Church and the US Government I’ve become so disillusioned with power and hierarchy I don’t even know to start. Some tough decision to make and not a lot of time in which to make them.


Yes, well, can't really get away from the dark side of human nature even there.

The Precepts help us navigate through this difficult, sometimes ugly, world. Our Practice allows us to see through both the beautiful and the ugly, yet the ugly remains.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-14/historic-sex-abuse-allegations-at-hobarts-friends-school/9147126

Gassho, J

STLAH

Kyoshin
08-27-2018, 06:04 AM
As a Catholic I’m so disgusted by the Church hierarchy I am looking to leave. The question for me is to try to find another Christian community to join or to do Jukai with you all and take the precepts focus on my meditation practice. These scandals aren’t helping me either, but as Jundo points out, they seem to be on a different scale of magnitude. I am going to check out an unprogrammed Quaker meeting near me and see how that goes. Between what’s going on in the Catholic Church and the US Government I’ve become so disillusioned with power and hierarchy I don’t even know to start. Some tough decision to make and not a lot of time in which to make them.

Gassho
Sat Today, Jason


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Hi Jason,
As a fellow Catholic (nominally, anyway; I keep a virgin Mary next to my Buddha) I'm with you as far as disgust in the Catholic hierarchy goes. You're definitely not alone there. I don't know if you are aware, but there are Independent Catholic churches that exist because priests and bishops are just as disgusted as you and have left the hierarchy. Some, like the Liberal Catholic Church, have been around for 100 years, some are more recent. They tend to be hyperlocal, but some are bigger, and they run the gamut from "stuck in 1752" conservative to "I don't think that counts as Catholic anymore" progressive and everything in between. Full disclosure: one of my best friends is a priest in the American National Catholic Church (one of the bigger Independent Catholic churches), and I attended his parish regularly when I still lived nearby. Anyway, I'm not trying to evangelize, but I've heard over and over Catholics say something like "I wish I had a place to go and still be Catholic, but I can't be associated with the hierarchy." Options exist, but most of them are terrible at getting the word out. Just thought I'd toss that out there in case you're interested
Gassho,
Nick
Satlah

EDIT: Just in case my intentions aren't clear, I'm REALLY not trying to evangelize, just point out the existence of things interested parties may not be aware of. If this post is inappropriate, please let me know and I'll delete.

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Meitou
08-27-2018, 08:06 AM
I thought thishttp://hardcorezen.info/sex-and-drugs-and-buddhism/5962 blog post by Brad Warner was very good, as it takes a broader look at the sex/drugs controversies in relation to the precepts. As an aside I thought it was quite worrying that Warner considers he may be a lone voice in speaking out against the drugs issue (and Lion's Roar) and that he will pay for his stance.
Gassho
Meitou
Satwithyoualltoday

Ryumon
08-27-2018, 09:14 AM
We are all bad. We are all good.


We all make mistakes, that is part of being human.

All due respect, but sexual abuse is not just a "mistake," it's not something to be shrugged off by saying that we are all bad (or that we are all sinners). Yes, things have changed, and what was once swept under the rug is now being dealt with as it should be, but the example of the Catholic church enabling pedophiles and abusers for decades, even centuries, shows that this is not just a "say you're sorry and move on" incident. These organizations need to be very firm, and in many ways the choice of this organization to dissolve is probably the best thing. (The example of Lance Armstrong's thing is a bit different; he cheated, he did not physically or mentally harm people.)

I have no experience with this sort of thing; I'm not reacting as one who has been abused. But there are some things that cannot be easily forgiven. This person - about whom I know little, other than a few articles I'd read over the years in the Buddhist press - apparently was not qualified to be a teacher, and was enabled by a certain level of fame that came from his popularity with a small percentage of people interested in Buddhism. He almost certainly helped a lot of people, but others certainly knew what was going on and enabled him.

A lot of this comes from putting people on a pedestal and granting them a certain amount of freedom to do what they want, sometimes under the cover of calling it "crazy wisdom." You can rationalize almost everything. He may be able to rehabilitate himself. But he should never be in a position of authority again.

Gassho,

Kirk

Jishin
08-27-2018, 11:20 AM
All due respect, but sexual abuse is not just a "mistake," it's not something to be shrugged off by saying that we are all bad (or that we are all sinners). Yes, things have changed, and what was once swept under the rug is now being dealt with as it should be, but the example of the Catholic church enabling pedophiles and abusers for decades, even centuries, shows that this is not just a "say you're sorry and move on" incident. These organizations need to be very firm, and in many ways the choice of this organization to dissolve is probably the best thing. (The example of Lance Armstrong's thing is a bit different; he cheated, he did not physically or mentally harm people.)

I have no experience with this sort of thing; I'm not reacting as one who has been abused. But there are some things that cannot be easily forgiven. This person - about whom I know little, other than a few articles I'd read over the years in the Buddhist press - apparently was not qualified to be a teacher, and was enabled by a certain level of fame that came from his popularity with a small percentage of people interested in Buddhism. He almost certainly helped a lot of people, but others certainly knew what was going on and enabled him.

A lot of this comes from putting people on a pedestal and granting them a certain amount of freedom to do what they want, sometimes under the cover of calling it "crazy wisdom." You can rationalize almost everything. He may be able to rehabilitate himself. But he should never be in a position of authority again.

Gassho,

Kirk




All humans are capable of bad acts. The bad deeds need to be addressed to ensure they are not repeated.



Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Kyoshin
08-27-2018, 12:05 PM
(The example of Lance Armstrong's thing is a bit different; he cheated, he did not physically or mentally harm people.)
That's not quite correct. He didn't sexually abuse anyone, but he caused a great deal of direct harm in the course of covering up his cheating. He destroyed people's careers and livelihoods, some bankrupted by legal fees when he sued them, he got others blacklisted from pro cycling (both riders and support staff) and fired from their jobs, and he even sank a successful bike manufacturing business. He orchestrated pr campaigns to turn people whose careers he ruined into public pariahs. He had people harrass and threaten his accusers and, notably, their families. He harmed people.
Gassho
Nick



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Jishin
08-27-2018, 12:11 PM
Sexual abusers should be lined up facing a wall and shot by a firing squad. Or blind folded and hung in a public square. They have have no redeeming qualities and the rate of recidivism is too high. They deserve no compassion.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Ryumon
08-27-2018, 12:14 PM
That's not quite correct. He didn't sexually abuse anyone, but he caused a great deal of direct harm in the course of covering up his cheating. He destroyed people's careers and livelihoods, some bankrupted by legal fees when he sued them, he got others blacklisted from pro cycling (both riders and support staff) and fired from their jobs, and he even sank a successful bike manufacturing business. He orchestrated pr campaigns to turn people whose careers he ruined into public pariahs. He had people harrass and threaten his accusers and, notably, their families. He harmed people.

I don't deny that he caused a great deal of harm, but I think sexual abuse is a very different level of harm. (I follow cycling, having lived in France, and seen the Tour de France go in front of my home several times. And my son was devastated when the truth came out about Armstrong, and tore up the autograph he had obtained.)

Gassho,

Kirk

Ryumon
08-27-2018, 12:16 PM
Sexual abusers should be lined up facing a wall and shot by a firing squad. Or blind folded and hung in a public square. They have have no redeeming qualities and the rate of recidivism is too high. They deserve no compassion.


While I am very much against the death penalty, I do agree that they should suffer the most serious of punishment. None of this begging forgiveness and starting over; as you say, the rate of recidivism is very high.

I also wonder about the validity of the teachings of these people; the Buddhists who have been sexual harassers and abusers. Can they be taken as legitimate knowing that their authors have committed very grave violations of the precepts? Again, the whole "crazy wisdom" thing seems like a way to excuse the abuses and exaggerations of Tibetan lamas; I find it hard to accept any such teachings as valid.

Gassho,

Kirk

Kyoshin
08-27-2018, 01:54 PM
Everyone deserves compassion. But that doesn't mean letting them get away with tomfoolery, or shielding them from the consequences of their actions. Sometimes the compassionate thing to do for someone is to take them down or send them to jail. To take the example of Trungpa and "crazy wisdom" I think the rest of the Tibetan Buddhist establishment failed to show Trungpa compassion when they rationalized his nonsense and let him get away with it. Perhaps if they'd denounced him or shut him down or whatever, he'd have a few less horrors on his Karmic bar tab.

Things like crime and recidivism rates are pretty meaningless in isolation, and irrevocably tied to both national culture and, notably, the penal environment, among other factors. Japan, for example, has a lower incidence of sexual crimes than the us. Norway, where the concept of compassionate prison is taken to an extreme, has far lower recidivism rates than the us for all crimes. In the us, high recidivism rates are strongly correlated to traumas suffered in prison, to punitive rather than rehabilitative philosophies of prison, and the extreme difficulty of reintegrating into normal life upon release due to things like job discrimination, debt, and other factors. These things have been studied for decades but old school "tough on crime" does well at the polls despite the fact that its proven to not work. Never mind that American for-profit prison companies make a great deal of money from high recidivism rates, and tailor their practices accordingly, but that's a whole different story. If anything, more compassion is required.

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Jishin
08-27-2018, 02:37 PM
As an aside:

We all have children, including those incarcerated. One of the first things that happen when a new inmate arrives is others want to see their file. What did they do to get there. Theft. Good! Assault and battery. Better. Lets not mess with this one. Murder. Most excellent. Maybe we can recruit this one for good stuff while incarcerated. Sex crimes? Watch out. I heard that they get held down and long held sexual tensions are released by other inmates. Lots of other inmates. Beatings follow. Lots of other special treatment occur. When the inmate gets smart enough he does anything to get better housing arrangements such as segregation. Nobody to bother you then. Maybe they deck a correctional officer everytime they see one or claim gang association. This will keep them in good standing with the segregation bunch. Segregation may keep the inmate alive but it's a nice place to go psychotic due to lack of sensory stimulation. After a while, the correctional powers that be may have pity and move the inmate to a special location where other sex abusers are housed. It looks bad if anyone dies while in custody. Honor amongst thieves. Mostly.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

Meikun
08-27-2018, 03:13 PM
I feel like this should be a reminder to all that to not give your power away to anyone. Trust lightly those who claim to have "the answers."

Noah deserves our compassion but he also deserves justice for what he has done. Everything has repercussions.

I hope all that have suffered under Noah, find some peace.

Meikun
Sat today _/\_

Meikun
08-27-2018, 03:14 PM
Can they be taken as legitimate knowing that their authors have committed very grave violations of the precepts? Again, the whole "crazy wisdom" thing seems like a way to excuse the abuses and exaggerations of Tibetan lamas; I find it hard to accept any such teachings as valid.

Dharma is dharma.

Sekishi
08-27-2018, 05:06 PM
Sexual abusers should be lined up facing a wall and shot by a firing squad. Or blind folded and hung in a public square. They have have no redeeming qualities and the rate of recidivism is too high. They deserve no compassion.


I'm just going to assume this was sarcasm / overstatement to make a point...

I guess for me there is compassion and forgiveness for individuals, and there is caring for victims, institutions, and all beings. When spiritual leaders act in harmful ways (or any person in a respected position or seat of authority), I feel wisdom involves both forgiveness and compassion for them as individuals and taking actions that (hopefully) keep them from harming in the future.

When the Sakyong, or Noah Levine, or whomever abuses their authority and harms others, I feel strongly that they should be both removed from their position of authority and given compassion and forgiveness. If our karma was their karma, would we have acted differently? This is a difficult question when we explore it deeply... The same is true of those guilty of more heinous acts / crimes. There is removal from society for the safety of others (or rehabilitation when possible), and there is compassion for them. Both are possible.

When we offer Metta to "difficult people", it can be from the bottom of the heart. But it does not mean we need to invite them to dinner the next day.

Just my $0.02. Take with a grain of salt and all that.

Gassho,
Sekishi #sat

Meitou
08-27-2018, 05:20 PM
I'm just going to assume this was sarcasm / overstatement to make a point...

I guess for me there is compassion and forgiveness for individuals, and there is caring for victims, institutions, and all beings. When spiritual leaders act in harmful ways (or any person in a respected position or seat of authority), I feel wisdom involves both forgiveness and compassion for them as individuals and taking actions that (hopefully) keep them from harming in the future.

When the Sakyong, or Noah Levine, or whomever abuses their authority and harms others, I feel strongly that they should be both removed from their position of authority and given compassion and forgiveness. If our karma was their karma, would we have acted differently? This is a difficult question when we explore it deeply... The same is true of those guilty of more heinous acts / crimes. There is removal from society for the safety of others (or rehabilitation when possible), and there is compassion for them. Both are possible.

When we offer Metta to "difficult people", it can be from the bottom of the heart. But it does not mean we need to invite them to dinner the next day.

Just my $0.02. Take with a grain of salt and all that.

Gassho,
Sekishi #sat

gassho2

Meitou
satwithyoualltoday/lah

Zenmei
08-27-2018, 05:36 PM
I guess for me there is compassion and forgiveness for individuals, and there is caring for victims, institutions, and all beings. When spiritual leaders act in harmful ways (or any person in a respected position or seat of authority), I feel wisdom involves both forgiveness and compassion for them as individuals and taking actions that (hopefully) keep them from harming in the future.

When the Sakyong, or Noah Levine, or whomever abuses their authority and harms others, I feel strongly that they should be both removed from their position of authority and given compassion and forgiveness. If our karma was their karma, would we have acted differently? This is a difficult question when we explore it deeply... The same is true of those guilty of more heinous acts / crimes. There is removal from society for the safety of others (or rehabilitation when possible), and there is compassion for them. Both are possible.

When we offer Metta to "difficult people", it can be from the bottom of the heart. But it does not mean we need to invite them to dinner the next day.


In Levine's own words: "Some actions may not be forgivable, but all actors are. For the actor, the person whose own suffering has spilled onto other people, there is always the possibility of compassion. There is always potential for mercy toward the suffering and confused person that hurts another."

Gassho, Zenmei (sat/lah)

Eva
08-27-2018, 05:44 PM
In Levine's own words: "Some actions may not be forgivable, but all actors are. For the actor, the person whose own suffering has spilled onto other people, there is always the possibility of compassion. There is always potential for mercy toward the suffering and confused person that hurts another."

Gassho, Zenmei (sat/lah)

Thank you for the comments ,
the whole issue is very "new" to me, so I only join in from theoretical viewpoint .
I have heard and have reflected on compassion, forgiveness, suffering . All formidable as idea and more so, as practice .
But I have also heard (in Buddhist context more than anywhere else) - atonement . Forgiveness without atonement (or in other way around) is incomplete, no?

gassho, eva
sattoday and also LAH

Jishin
08-27-2018, 05:49 PM
I'm just going to assume this was sarcasm / overstatement to make a point...



5276

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Sekishi
08-27-2018, 06:03 PM
In Levine's own words: "Some actions may not be forgivable, but all actors are. For the actor, the person whose own suffering has spilled onto other people, there is always the possibility of compassion. There is always potential for mercy toward the suffering and confused person that hurts another."


That says it so much more succinctly than my wordy mess. Thank you Zenmei. gassho2

Gassho,
Sekishi
#sat

Zenmei
08-27-2018, 06:10 PM
But I have also heard (in Buddhist context more than anywhere else) - atonement . Forgiveness without atonement (or in other way around) is incomplete, no?


I wouldn't necessarily say "incomplete", but yes, kind of. When I talk about forgiveness, I'm usually only talking about letting go of resentment and anger. This kind of forgiveness doesn't require atonement or making amends. It's unconditional and one-sided. I can forgive you without you ever knowing about it. We often have to be able to forgive without ever interacting with the person we're forgiving. In cases of abuse or other serious harm, it may not be wise to have this person in our lives. Sometimes we need to forgive someone who's passed on. We can do this, because this part of forgiveness is only about how we relate to our own thoughts and feelings.

But that doesn't say anything at all about our relationship with the other person. We can forgive someone and choose never to speak to them again. In order to repair our relationship, I may have to show you that I understand how I've hurt you, and show you that I understand how not to hurt you in the future. That kind of atonement or making amends may be necessary for healing a relationship, and it may make forgiveness easier, but I think it's separate from forgiveness.

Gassho, Zenmei (sat/lah)

Jundo
08-28-2018, 12:04 AM
I'm just going to assume this was sarcasm / overstatement to make a point...

I guess for me there is compassion and forgiveness for individuals, and there is caring for victims, institutions, and all beings. When spiritual leaders act in harmful ways (or any person in a respected position or seat of authority), I feel wisdom involves both forgiveness and compassion for them as individuals and taking actions that (hopefully) keep them from harming in the future.

When the Sakyong, or Noah Levine, or whomever abuses their authority and harms others, I feel strongly that they should be both removed from their position of authority and given compassion and forgiveness. If our karma was their karma, would we have acted differently? This is a difficult question when we explore it deeply... The same is true of those guilty of more heinous acts / crimes. There is removal from society for the safety of others (or rehabilitation when possible), and there is compassion for them. Both are possible.

When we offer Metta to "difficult people", it can be from the bottom of the heart. But it does not mean we need to invite them to dinner the next day.

Just my $0.02. Take with a grain of salt and all that.

Gassho,
Sekishi #sat

I wouldn't necessarily say "incomplete", but yes, kind of. When I talk about forgiveness, I'm usually only talking about letting go of resentment and anger. This kind of forgiveness doesn't require atonement or making amends. It's unconditional and one-sided. I can forgive you without you ever knowing about it. We often have to be able to forgive without ever interacting with the person we're forgiving. In cases of abuse or other serious harm, it may not be wise to have this person in our lives. Sometimes we need to forgive someone who's passed on. We can do this, because this part of forgiveness is only about how we relate to our own thoughts and feelings.

But that doesn't say anything at all about our relationship with the other person. We can forgive someone and choose never to speak to them again. In order to repair our relationship, I may have to show you that I understand how I've hurt you, and show you that I understand how not to hurt you in the future. That kind of atonement or making amends may be necessary for healing a relationship, and it may make forgiveness easier, but I think it's separate from forgiveness.

Gassho, Zenmei (sat/lah)


Two very wise viewpoints.

As hard as it is, in Buddhism, we generally say that there are no "bad people," only people who act badly because of the disease of excess desire, anger or divided thinking (ignorance) that infects them within, the Karma that brought them to that place. There but for the grace of Buddha go I.

That said, we may still have to punish wrongdoers legally and socially in civil society.

Yes, the wrongdoer should atone and seek to make amends as they can, but the recipient of the harm should try to forgive nonetheless whether they do or not.

I have also advised child abuse and like victims that one can let the past go AND honor and recognize the past, feel the pain of old physical and mental scars, at the same time. Yes, one can forgive, yet honor the fact that parts of oneself may not be able to totally forgive, at once. Forgive and not forgive at once. I think that better than either pretending that one must always be a complete saint and fully forgiving, or at the other extreme, become someone drowning in anger and resentment. In Zen, we can do seemingly contradictory things like that at once, as if on different channels of our feeling. So, recognize that there may be a deep part of the brain that may always feel hurt and anger at violence done to oneself or those one loves, and honor that fact, but also rise above it and let it go too. I feel that our Buddhist Ancestors (especially in the Mahayana) were still human beings who did not learn to escape all human emotions, but to tame and honor them ... like people who kept the fires burning in the hearth rather than burning down the house.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Zenmei
08-28-2018, 12:45 AM
I have also advised child abuse and like victims that one can let the past go AND honor and recognize the past, feel the pain of old physical and mental scars, at the same time. Yes, one can forgive, yet honor the fact that parts of oneself may not be able to totally forgive, at once. Forgive and not forgive at once. I think that better than either pretending that one must always be a complete saint and fully forgiving, or at the other extreme, someone drowning in anger and resentment. In Zen, we can do seemingly contradictory things like that at once, as if on different channels of our feeling.

Very much so. I think sometimes there’s this idea that forgiving is a thing you do once and then you’re done with it, but it’s a process. Especially with the big stuff. It comes and goes. One day you’re fine with it, the next you’re angry again. That doesn’t mean you’ve failed at forgiveness, it just means human emotions are complex.

One of the things I love about Zen is that it embraces that complexity, acknowledges that yeah, sometimes I hate you and I love you at the same time. And that’s okay.

Gassho, Zenmei (sat/lah)

Tai Shi
08-28-2018, 09:48 PM
I am so relieved that I have taken my vows with the precepts when I read some of this. Much of the commentary scares me to the very fibers of my femurs, and I've had two knee replacements, the anger and even rage I read here is close to murder. The first precept is observed in my life, and though I eat meat, by the way I AM also a Christian; As a Buddhist I have found myself pounding the keyboard when I type, so to step back and say I try to bless my morning meal. I am concerned with the level of anger, focused on sex offenders, and as a boy of six I first remember my mother explaining what the teenage boy had done to the little kid right next to his house, and this one right out in the open of his driveway. I was scared to death as I watched the teen being led to the patrol car, and in handcuffs, I had seen this action performed on TV, but see I was innocent. I didn't see the gravity of this. I was after all I was six-years-old. Yes, by this age the serious nature of this act was pounded into my little skull, so what's next for a six-year-old; is the sanctity of life treated thus, as we treat the ears of a six-year-old boy that his own parts might be violated, this memory brings me to tears, and as an adult the tears start to form then held back, and just as a little boy I am grateful my mom won't (didn't) let this happen to me, and I now I look on in horror.

Gassho
Tai Shi
st-lah

Daitetsu
09-05-2018, 10:41 AM
For those interested in this matter, Noah Levine has now responded with a statement in which he denies the allegations:

https://www.lionsroar.com/against-the-stream-confirms-sexual-misconduct-by-noah-levine-centers-to-shut-down/

Gassho,

Daitetsu

#sat2day

Jundo
09-05-2018, 12:24 PM
For those interested in this matter, Noah Levine has now responded with a statement in which he denies the allegations:

https://www.lionsroar.com/against-the-stream-confirms-sexual-misconduct-by-noah-levine-centers-to-shut-down/

Gassho,

Daitetsu

#sat2day

It seems much more subtle and ambiguous than just "denies," and nobody outside yet knows what this is about or what the heck exactly is going on. We live in a complicated time, and it is impossible to judge all the indirect hints and lawyerly code words used here.

I advise to keep an open mind, and not jump to conclusions either way, until more specific information comes out.

Gassho, J

STLah

Meitou
09-05-2018, 12:54 PM
For those interested in this matter, Noah Levine has now responded with a statement in which he denies the allegations:

https://www.lionsroar.com/against-the-stream-confirms-sexual-misconduct-by-noah-levine-centers-to-shut-down/

Gassho,

Daitetsu

#sat2day

The unseemly haste with which everyone concerned raced to disassociate themselves with Levine and shut down the centres suggests more is involved than is being disclosed, either on their part or his. I can't even tell from their statement whether they've actually sat down with him and really discussed any of this. I can only feel compassion for everyone concerned, including Levine.
Gassho
Meitou
Satwithyoualltoday lah

Zenmei
09-05-2018, 01:17 PM
The unseemly haste with which everyone concerned raced to disassociate themselves with Levine and shut down the centres suggests more is involved than is being disclosed, either on their part or his. I can't even tell from their statement whether they've actually sat down with him and really discussed any of this. I can only feel compassion for everyone concerned, including Levine.
Gassho
Meitou
Satwithyoualltoday lah

I believe there were some internal power struggles going on at ATS, and these allegations were just the final straw.

Noah went to the ethics council and admitted to an inappropriate relationship shortly before this came out. The conversation was happening for at least a few months before they decide to investigate.

Gassho, Zenmei (sat)

Zenmei
09-05-2018, 01:38 PM
It seems much more subtle and ambiguous than just "denies," and nobody outside yet knows what this is about or what the heck exactly is going on. We live in a complicated time, and it is impossible to judge all the indirect hints and lawyerly code words used here.


I can’t judge whether the allegations are true. We don’t even know what they are. Noah has admitted to causing harm with his sexuality and not considering his teaching role in his personal dating life. I don’t think promiscuity is wrong in and of itself, but I do think that you have to be very, very careful to avoid causing harm. And I’m not sure I buy the argument that you can separate your personal life from your teachings like that. He’s not teaching algebra, what he is teaching is intimately related to how he lives his life. I feel for him. It does seem, as you suggested earlier, that this is a manifestation of his addiction.

I just feel like a responsible teacher, after admitting to causing harm with his sexuality and not taking his teaching role seriously, would at least take a break from teaching to examine his behavior.

Edit: and let me add that his admissions seem much more of the "I'm sorry you were offended" variety than genuine regret or intention to change any behavior. I can't see in his heart, but that's how he's coming across to a large part of the community.

Gassho, Zenmei (sat)

Daitetsu
09-05-2018, 01:56 PM
Hi Jundo,


It seems much more subtle and ambiguous than just "denies," and nobody outside yet knows what this is about or what the heck exactly is going on. We live in a complicated time, and it is impossible to judge all the indirect hints and lawyerly code words used here.

I advise to keep an open mind, and not jump to conclusions either way, until more specific information comes out.


That's how I think, too. Sorry if I made the impression to see it in a certain way or taking one side. With "deny" I simply referred to his statement:


That said, I will likewise also continue to tell the truth about what never happened, such as the accusation that I assaulted someone.

However, I fear that there will be more confusion and speculation on all sides, which will make it even more difficult to find out the truth.

Gassho,

Daitetsu

#sat2day

Shinshou
09-05-2018, 07:42 PM
I'm just gonna leave this here. It was posted by Emmet a few months ago on the Random Quote thread.

Kannon's Prayer for the Abuser

To those who withhold refuge,
I cradle you in safety at the core of my Being.
To those that cause a child to cry out,
I grant you the freedom to express your own choked agony.
To those that inflict terror,
I remind you that you shine with the purity of a thousand suns.
To those who would confine, suppress, or deny,
I offer the limitless expanse of the sky.
To those who need to cut, slash, or burn,
I remind you of the invincibility of Spring.
To those who cling and grasp,
I promise more abundance than you could ever hold onto.
To those who vent their rage on small children,
I return to you your deepest innocence.
To those who must frighten into submission,
I hold you in the bosom of your original mother.
To those who cause agony to others,
I give the gift of free flowing tears.
To those that deny another's right to be,
I remind you that the angels sang in celebration of you on the day of your birth.
To those who see only division and separateness,
I remind you that a part is born only by bisecting a whole.
For those who have forgotten the tender mercy of a mother's embrace,
I send a gentle breeze to caress your brow.
To those who still feel somehow incomplete,
I offer the perfect sanctity of this very moment.
unknown

Shinshou (Dan)
Sat Today

Aurkihnowe
09-05-2018, 08:09 PM
i read an article by a survivor of this abuse (a woman, but in today's climate, men are not immune to unwanted sexual advances from roshi's, rinpoche's, and others)...she was terrified about coming forward at the time, and the teacher told her it would bring shame on the sangha (as if he hadn't done so already) and now this woman counsels other sufferers of assault (calling a wolf a wolf)...there are now laws, and will continue to be more in the future, against clergy sexual abuse, and these people coming forward are prime examples about why such egregious sexual misconduct must be monitored...

Kokuu
09-05-2018, 08:49 PM
she was terrified about coming forward at the time, and the teacher told her it would bring shame on the sangha

Sadly I have read of several cases of this, which just seems like a modern Buddhist equivalent of "You'll bring shame on the family". As in that case, we need to make it clear that it is the abuser who brings shame, not the victim and, in my opinion, any sangha which acts to protect an abuser is complicit in the abuse.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

Mp
09-05-2018, 08:54 PM
any sangha which acts to protect an abuser is complicit in the abuse.

Thank you Kokuu, I very much agree.

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

Shinshi
09-05-2018, 10:12 PM
Sadly I have read of several cases of this, which just seems like a modern Buddhist equivalent of "You'll bring shame on the family". As in that case, we need to make it clear that it is the abuser who brings shame, not the victim and, in my opinion, any sangha which acts to protect an abuser is complicit in the abuse.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

gassho2

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

Anka
09-05-2018, 10:15 PM
Stories like these are so disheartening but a reminder that nothing is perfect. If you dig into any religion or group you can find extremists or corruption. I hope the truth comes out here and that people are able to hold their judgement until it does.

Gassho to you Kokuu. It couldn't have been stated better.

James F
Sat lah

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Kyoshin
09-07-2018, 01:49 AM
A pertinent reminder from one of the readings in Jukai study: "That teacher is still a human being! The teacher carries a message, but the teacher may not necessarily be enlightened and therefore he or she is still in a human existence. They will still be affected by a sense of inner superiority or ego and emotions and will sometimes make mistakes. What you have to learn from that teacher is the message not always the behaviour. You should not think, "He did this, therefore I must copy him because he is my Buddhist teacher".
You must not close your eyes and follow your teacher blindly. Every one of you has the same capability of achievement as the teacher, the same potential. If you continue to do the right thing you may even be better than your teacher! The teacher gives the message and you act on it. It would be wiser to separate the teachings from the behaviour of the teacher. Then if some action of the teacher should disappoint you, you will not lose interest in Buddhism because of the behaviour of one person."

Gassho
Nick
Satlah

Jundo
09-07-2018, 03:32 AM
It is important that we make an environment in which victims of abuse can feel safe and welcome to report confidentially, and be treated with respect, with their reports taken seriously and responded to quickly and fairly. They must be investigated by individuals who are fair and not partial. As well, we must also make sure not to judge purported wrongdoers too early, based on rumor or supposition without all complete facts available. We must do both. It is a fine line to walk, but we must walk it.

For reference, our Treeleaf Sangha has an Ethics Committee in place, including some non-member individuals who are in positions of trust and experienced in related matters (such as counseling or law), available to take any report and investigate the same in confidence. They can be contacted as a group or individually. We also have ethics rules posted here spelling out standards and procedures.

Treeleaf Ethics Committee ( Complaint Box )
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7607-Treeleaf-Ethics-Committee-%28-Complaint-Box-%29

I am happy to report that, as far as I know, the system has never needed to be used, and no report has ever been filed about the priests or others in our Community.

However, it is available should the need ever arise.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

Mp
09-07-2018, 03:53 AM
It is important that we make an environment in which victims of abuse can feel safe and welcome to report confidentially, and be treated with respect, with their reports taken seriously and responded to quickly and fairly. They must be investigated by individuals who are fair and not partial. As well, we must also make sure not to judge purported wrongdoers too early, based on rumor or supposition without all complete facts available. We must do both. It is a fine line to walk, but we must walk it.

For reference, our Treeleaf Sangha has an Ethics Committee in place, including some non-member individuals who are in positions of trust and experienced in related matters (such as counseling or law), available to take any report and investigate the same in confidence. They can be contacted as a group or individually. We also have ethics rules posted here spelling out standards and procedures.

Treeleaf Ethics Committee ( Complaint Box )
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7607-Treeleaf-Ethics-Committee-%28-Complaint-Box-%29

I am happy to report that, as far as I know, the system has never needed to be used, and no report has ever been filed about the priests or others in our Community.

However, it is available should the need ever arise.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

gassho2

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

Jishin
09-07-2018, 11:20 AM
“Cease to cherish opinions and truth will be revealed.”

—Hsin-Hsin Ming

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_