Wagessa?

[Tairin]

Jundo Note: There is absolutely no reason that folks at Treeleaf need to know anything whatsoever about Wagesa (one s'or two) or Hangesa, the subject of this thread. For Zen Trivia buffs only. :)

I was reading Domyo Burke’s podcast on “Taking Refuge and the Precepts” today https://zenstudiespodcast.com/becoming-a-buddhist-1/ In the podcast she describes Jukai in her own Sangha. I was surprised to see that the Jukai-ees receive a Wagessa and not a Rakusu as part of the ceremony. A Wagessa is described as


Wagessas are small garments, strips of cloth bound at the end with a decorative knot, that people will subsequently wear around their necks when doing formal Zen practice, as a symbol of their vows.

The article has pictures too.

I did a search of Treeleaf and this topic has never come up before. Why do some Sanghas use a Wagessa in place of a Rakusu? Rakusu seems to be much more common. In fact a Google search for “wagessa” turns up virtually nothing.

Based on experience I certainly prefer the Treeleaf Jukai where we prepare by sewing a Rakusu. There was just so many insights to be gained and the comradeship of sharing with others was just very very special to me.

gassho2
Tairin
Sat today and soon to LAH

[Mp]

I was reading Domyo Burke’s podcast on “Taking Refuge and the Precepts” today https://zenstudiespodcast.com/becoming-a-buddhist-1/ In the podcast she describes Jukai in her own Sangha. I was surprised to see that the Jukai-ees receive a Wagessa and not a Rakusu as part of the ceremony. A Wagessa is described as



The article has pictures too.

I did a search of Treeleaf and this topic has never come up before. Why do some Sanghas use a Wagessa in place of a Rakusu? Rakusu seems to be much more common. In fact a Google search for “wagessa” turns up virtually nothing.

Based on experience I certainly prefer the Treeleaf Jukai where we prepare by sewing a Rakusu. There was just so many insights to be gained and the comradeship of sharing with others was just very very special to me.

gassho2
Tairin
Sat today and soon to LAH

Hey Tairin,

It looks like they might have a couple different version to taking refuge. 1. In just taking "The Three Refuges" and receiving the wagesa. The other taking the "16 Bodhisattva Vows" and receiving the rakusu.

There are also differences when it comes to sewing the rakusu ... there is the Sotoshu way and the Nyoho-e way (which we do here). But I think it might be the former and just a more minimal taking of the precepts. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Jundo]

Hi Tairin,

I think the spelling in alphabet would be "Wagesa" (輪袈裟), which means "loop Kesa." That is why you didn't find information.

I believe, and the Rakusu is much more common to receive at Jukai. In Japan, Wagesa is given to active parishioners of a particular Soto temple, not all of whom have received Jukai. I have been handed a couple without any ceremony attached. It is also given to some folks who have received Jukai in Japan, I believe, but not so common. It is a simpler item (in construction and cost) them the Rakusu. Something close to the Soto Wagesa is on the far left. The priests of some other sects of Buddhism, such as Pure Land, wear a larger wagesa in place of a Rakusu.

http://memphiszen.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/wagesa2.jpghttps://i.pinimg.com/564x/fe/3a/34/fe3a347318f6f21cf34a98dddcce42d4.jpg

The term "Wagesa" is also applied to what is that "Hangesa" in the above picture.

The Wagesa, like the Rakusu, developed as an abbreviate Kesa for less formal purposes. Apparently Order of Buddhist Contemplatives use this for Jukai for lay folks, which is Domyo's Lineage.

Best not to have too many Kesa preferences though. :)

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Kokuu]

Thank you, Jundo, and to Tairin for asking the question.

Is there a difference in the use of the hangesa and wangesa?

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Doshin]

Yes, several years before taking Jukai with Treeleaf I sewed a Wagessa (not with the knot part) as the first step in the path towards Jukai with the Order of Clear Mind Zen. It was my first sewing project.

Gassho
Doshin
st

[Mp]

Hi Tairin,

I think the spelling in alphabet would be "Wagesa" (輪袈裟), which means "loop Kesa." That is why you didn't find information.

I believe, and the Rakusu is much more common to receive at Jukai. In Japan, Wagesa is given to active parishioners of a particular Soto temple, not all of whom have received Jukai. I have been handed a couple without any ceremony attached. It is also given to some folks who have received Jukai in Japan, I believe, but not so common. It is a simpler item (in construction and cost) them the Rakusu. Soto Wagesa is on the left. The priests of some other sects of Buddhism, such as Pure Land, wear a larger wagesa in place of a Rakusu.

http://memphiszen.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/wagesa2.jpghttps://i.pinimg.com/564x/fe/3a/34/fe3a347318f6f21cf34a98dddcce42d4.jpg

The Wagesa, like the Rakusu, developed as an abbreviate Kesa for less formal purposes. Apparently Order of Buddhist Contemplatives use this for Jukai for lay folks, which is Domyo's Lineage.

Best not to have too many Kesa preferences though. :)

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

That is a much better clarification then mine, thanks Jundo. :encouragement:

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Tairin]

Hi Jundo

Thank you for the explanation.

gassho2
Tairin
Sat today & LAH

[Jundo]

Thank you, Jundo, and to Tairin for asking the question.

Is there a difference in the use of the hangesa and wangesa?

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

Hi,

More than you want to know ... and not enough.

Kokuu, you mean "wagesa" (not "wangesa") and hangesa (半袈裟). The 輪 (wa) means "loop" or "wheel", the 半 (han) means "half" or "middle."

I notice in the pictures which I posted that "Wagesa" in Soto is the one with the string, but seems to be the same as, and sometimes called "hangesa" in other sects! So confusing!

http://tokylotus.com/shingon-shu-c-7_11/wagesa-hangesa-simplified-jp-kasa-nishijinori-karakusamon-fabric-p-216.html

The catalogue I have from an old and respected Buddhist tailor shop has them as "Wagesa" with the string (and sells them to the temples for about $15 each with the school markings). So, the usage of "Wagesa" and "Hangesa" appears to be fairly interchangeable. I will have to call the tailor shop and ask.

As far as I know, in Japan, they are basically just handed out to parishioners, donors or the like of the temple with no Precepts or Ceremony attached. For example, here is a temple bus trip and everyone has a Wagesa (except the two priests in front who have a Rakusu). I assume that most would not have taken any Jukai or like Precepts Ceremony.

http://img01.boo-log.com/usr/z/u/i/zuiunji/s-000198000001_1.jpg

I have been to one Jukai in Japan (a massive one at Sojiji with maybe 200 participants?) where neither a Rakusu or Wagesa was given. So, I suspect that some temples, on their own, just began to give Wagesa for Jukai because it is simpler and less complicated to make (and much less expensive to purchase from the Buddhist tailor shop, where Rakusu start at about $100 for the most basic "Soto-shu" model. Nyoho-e Rakusu, as we sew, are not for sale, or should not be anyway.) than the Rakusu. I don't think that there is any official rule.

The long version seems to be worn as the more informal Kesa by Japanese Jodo (Pure Land) and some other sects, much as we in Soto wear the Rakusu. (Yes, they also generally grow their hair). That is just their sect custom.

http://hawaiibetsuin.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/newsly_ordained2_sm-300x206.jpg

I wonder why Domyo seems to be misspelling poor Wagesa! It is not "gessa," but "gesa" derived from "kesa." The "g" is correct in the compound word, but the English spelling has only one "s." I will write her and ask.

And there is all the useless information I know in my ignorance. If we ever have "TRIVIA NIGHT" here at Treeleaf, you are all set! :)

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Jundo]

TRIVIA NIGHT CONTINUES!

So, I called the old and respected Buddhist Tailor shop in Kyoto and asked.

The short ones that the temple parishioners wear should properly be called "Hangesa," and the priest in the temples sometimes call them "Wagesa" by mistake! So, what Domyo and we are talking about here is technically the "Hangesa," -NOT- the "Wagesa" [scared]

Technically, the "Wagesa" is the long ones that the Pure Land priests are wearing in the picture.

However, the man at the tailor shop said that, basically, people mix the words, and the Hangesa are pretty much called Wagesa by lots of folks, so call it either! [toomuch]

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Mp]

TRIVIA NIGHT CONTINUES!

So, I called the old and respected Buddhist Tailor shop in Kyoto and asked.

The short ones that the temple parishioners wear should properly be called "Hangesa," and the priest in the temples sometimes call them "Wagesa" by mistake! So, what Domyo and we are talking about here is technically the "Hangesa," -NOT- the "Wagesa" [scared]

Technically, the "Wagesa" is the long ones that the Pure Land priests are wearing in the picture.

However, the man at the tailor shop said that, basically, people mix the words, and the Hangesa are pretty much called Wagesa by lots of folks, so call it either! [toomuch]

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Ok, Jundo now is the new Treeleaf Wikipedia! [claps]

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Jakuden]

Ah thank you for this thread! I have seen them before but never remembered to ask what they were all about.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kokuu]

Thank you for the information, Jundo. Is good to know!

I have seen non-Japanese Buddhist groups wear wagesa, such as Triratna ordained folk. Tai Shi has a hangesa his wife bought for him in Japan also.

I am always sad when I see rakusu for sale as it deprives people of the practice of making one and satisfaction in doing so. Of course, there are people who are not physically able to sew a rakusu but that gives someone else in the sangha a chance to practice generosity and sew one for them.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Mitka]

Forgive me for indulging my curiosity, but are hangesa (and wagesa too) sown in the traditional rice-field pattern? I suppose they would be, especially if they are being used at jukai.


Gassho,

Matthew
Sat

[Shokai]

The Rice Paddy Pattern is for Rakusu and Kasaya. The Wagesa are straight fold.
However, Matthew, you have no need to sew a Wagesa/Hangesa here at Treeleaf.

gassho, shokai

stlah

[Mp]

Forgive me for indulging my curiosity, but are hangesa (and wagesa too) sown in the traditional rice-field pattern? I suppose they would be, especially if they are being used at jukai.


Gassho,

Matthew
Sat

Hello Mathew,

As far as I know no, the Hangesa (Wagesa) are not sewn in the rice field pattern.

When it comes to the Rakusu there are two forms of sewing. There is the Sotoshu way (pattern) and the Nyoho-e way (pattern), we sew in the Nyoho-e way here. Below you can see the two differences.

Nyoho-e Style
5099

Sotoshu Style
5098

7 Panel Okesa
5100

As well, we will be sewing this Fall (around August/Sept) when folks undertake Jukai. You are more then welcome Matthew if you like. Hope that helps. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Mitka]

Thank you for the answers Shokai and Shingen. Being new to real-life Zen (the kind not found in books) all the variety of kesas, full and abbreviated, are a tad bewildering.

EDIT: Just want to clarify that I asked purely out of curiority, not because I thought I would be sowing one.

Gassho,
Matthew
Sat

[Jundo]

Let me just emphasize, there is absolutely no reason that folks at Treeleaf need to know anything whatsoever about Wagesa or Hangesa. [gassholook]

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Shoka]

Trivia is so much fun! Thanks for such an interesting thread. More random information to file away.

Gassho,

Shoka
sattoday

[Kyonin]

I love these posts. Thank you all.

I have seen the wagesa before, but had no idea about them.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[Jundo]

I heard from Domyo, who said that the double s (Wagessa) is just how they started spelling it in Kennett Roshi's OBC, and too late to change now! :)

(I believe that this is a living example of how most 'traditions' were born in Zen over the centuries! With 'that's just what somebody started doing.' ) [monk]

And let me repeat: There is absolutely no reason that folks at Treeleaf need to know anything whatsoever about Wagesa (one s'or two) or Hangesa.
gassho2

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Rendulic]

As someone who's day job involves writing regulation and policy, and someone who used to call these O'Kesa, from the Pure Land folks who made New England home decades ago and preferred the honorific "O" (for example "O'Bon"), this is a fascinating example of how knowledge/trivia/information grows and proliferates. Having zazen as a touchstone and a few precepts to come back to are useful corrections to the fractal accumulation that happens with data. And traditions are data to which we've attached meaning.

Gassho, Rendulic
Sat Today

[Getchi]

[gassholook]

THankyou.

Geoff.

SatToday
LaH.

[Souchi]

Thanks, I really like these kind of trivia :)

Gassho,
Souchi

SatToday

[Myogan]

Hangessas have been given as gifts, or as the “casual wear” robe for some temples. Myself, I have been tempted to take a leftover strip of cloth from my Kesa, leave it plain as a pocket representation of my Kesa when I sit away from home, but as it has been said, “we wear our Kesa all the time in our daily lives”

Gassho
Sat

[Kyonin]

Okesa : Wagesa

Mario : Wario

https://myalbum.com/photo/1HaNfCkYnFLk/med.jpg

Luigi : Waluigi

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/7_jffoCQxic/mqdefault.jpg

I shall sit with this.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH