Carl Bielefeldt

[somanaut]

Hi
I have just finished reading Carl Bielefeldts "Dogen's Manual of Zen Meditation". I found it very interesting, and I was wondering if anyone here had also read it?
I see that Jundo have also posted it in the recommended reading list.

Sattoday
Somanaut

ps: I have introduced myself some time ago, but haven't posted in a long time.

[Jundo]

Hi Somanaut (is that your first name? We try to stay on a first name basis around here).

Prof. Bielefeldt is one of our great living historians of Zen Buddhism and "Dogenologists." I recommend that book to all Dogen history wonks. Among other good aspects, it shows line by line the development of the Fukanzazengi and some other Dogen writings based on earlier Chinese manuals of Zazen.

For example, Professor Bielefeldt's book ("Dogen's Manuals of Zen Mediation") has long sections showing where Dogen followed word for word, but also deviated from the "Tso-chan-i" in the Fukanzazengi and elsewhere, and how Dogen introduced his own special twist on things, which is also fascinating.

To offer one small example, the Tso-chan-i begins with the words "The bodhisattva who studies prajñā should first arouse the thought of great compassion, make the extensive vows, and vigorously cultivate samadhi. Vowing to save sentient beings, you should not seek liberation for yourself alone" which Dogen replaced with his famous:

"The way is originally perfect and all-pervading. How could it be contingent on practice and realization? The true vehicle is self-sufficient. What need is there for special effort? Indeed, the whole body is free from dust. Who could believe in a means to brush it clean? It is never apart from this very place; what is the use of traveling around to practice? And yet, if there is a hairsbreadth deviation, it is like the gap between heaven and earth. If the least like or dislike arises, the mind is lost in confusion.".

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Eishuu]

Hi
I have just finished reading Carl Bielefeldts "Dogen's Manual of Zen Meditation". I found it very interesting, and I was wondering if anyone here had also read it?
I see that Jundo have also posted it in the recommended reading list.

Sattoday
Somanaut

ps: I have introduced myself some time ago, but haven't posted in a long time.

Yes, I read it at the end of last year and really enjoyed it. Great to read about the historical development of Zen.

Gassho
Eishuu
ST/LAH

[somanaut]

Thanks both for your reply. My first name is Jesper, sorry for not posting that.
I plan to reread it again soon, is there anything one should keep in mind while reading it? Sometimes Jundo points out stuff in books, that one should take with a grain of salt. And it's allmost impossible for me to be critical about Bielefeldts work, since I don't read all the asian languages that he does, so can't check him.
Jesper

[Eishuu]

Hi Jesper,
I also want to reread it soon...it's definitely the kind of book that requires more than one reading!

Gassho
Eishuu
ST/LAH

[Jundo]

Thanks both for your reply. My first name is Jesper, sorry for not posting that.
I plan to reread it again soon, is there anything one should keep in mind while reading it? Sometimes Jundo points out stuff in books, that one should take with a grain of salt. And it's allmost impossible for me to be critical about Bielefeldts work, since I don't read all the asian languages that he does, so can't check him.
Jesper

Hi Jesper,

It has been a few years since my last reading. I don't recall anything negative about the book, and it is still regularly cited by other historians. Let us know if anything surprising jumps out.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[somanaut]

Good to know, that it’s considered a reliable scholarly work.
The major issue of the book seems to be, that Dogen’s shikantaza is very different than what has been described elsewhere in Chan. And it’s hard to see where he actually got that practise from. So did he misunderstand, did he lie, or did he clear away the useless dogmatic and scholastic detritus that had been accumulated since the Buddha started teaching, and present a true practise to Japan? I am partial to the latter interpretation.
Some lament, that Dogen was very vague about the actual practise of zazen. And I will agree, that it’s very frustrating compared to the other Buddhist meditative approaches. It’s very hard to know, if one is doing it correctly (I certainly don’t). But as frustrating as this can be, it’s also a strength, it opens up for a very lively practise (even if one is sitting completely still).
After reading Bielefeldt, I am very impressed by the radical approach Dogen took.
Sat Today
Jesper

[Jundo]

Good to know, that it’s considered a reliable scholarly work.
The major issue of the book seems to be, that Dogen’s shikantaza is very different than what has been described elsewhere in Chan. And it’s hard to see where he actually got that practise from. So did he misunderstand, did he lie, or did he clear away the useless dogmatic and scholastic detritus that had been accumulated since the Buddha started teaching, and present a true practise to Japan? I am partial to the latter interpretation.
Some lament, that Dogen was very vague about the actual practise of zazen. And I will agree, that it’s very frustrating compared to the other Buddhist meditative approaches. It’s very hard to know, if one is doing it correctly (I certainly don’t). But as frustrating as this can be, it’s also a strength, it opens up for a very lively practise (even if one is sitting completely still).
After reading Bielefeldt, I am very impressed by the radical approach Dogen took.
Sat Today
Jesper

Does Jazz great Oscar Peterson play the same as Thelonius Monk? Yet, same piano. For Dogen and other Zen Ancestors, same universe, same universal notes, various ways of expression.

Yes, Dogen realized or remembered something that many other Zen folks had forgotten, namely, that if one is trying to realize the Buddha all around, one can do so by realize that Buddha is one's Zazen itself. When climbing Buddha mountain, one does not walk to get closer to Buddha mountain. Rather, every step by step is total arrival at Buddha mountain, and the path and walker and walking are Buddha mountain too.

He way is very similar to some early Zen Master, and different from some others ... yet all just the same. Zen itself formed when Buddhism moved from India meeting Daoist and other Chinese sensibilities, then onto the care for form of Japan, and especially to Dogen. Many ways to play the piano, some more suited to one ear or another, all good music.

I don't feel that Dogen was vague about his practice at all (I am just finishing my book on Dogen and Zazen). He was very clear. Here is my interpretation, my playing of Dogen's music:

WHAT's OFTEN MISSING in SHIKANTAZA EXPLANATIONS ....
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15111-WHAT-s-OFTEN-MISSING-in-SHIKANTAZA-EXPLANATIONS

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

'Round Midnight by Oscar Peterson ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1GONDzjZM4

... by Thelonius Monk ... Who is telling the Truth?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=px1UCre8udI

[Kokuu]

Hi all

I have also read this book and enjoyed Bielefeldt's elucidation of Dogen's approach to zazen. As with others, I feel it is a book I will need to revisit to really understand what was being said.

Incidentally, my friend Careena has a cat called Oscar Peterson [morehappy]

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[somanaut]

Thank you for the link about shikantaza Jundo.
Sat Today
Jesper