Confusion in Practice

[Michael Joseph]

Hello all,

I've rarely posted during my first year here at Treeleaf, mostly out of fear and anxiety of being "wrong" or "stupid," but I've come to realize that this is just getting in the way of receiving guidance--and it's "bad" practice in general, so here I am posting:

In the past few months, I've felt what I can only call confusion in my relationship to my life: how I see things, how I see myself, etc. For lack of a better explanation, I'll just say that in trying to "look past" my old views and remain focused on the here and now, I find the experience unsettling; things sometimes feel as though they "are" and "are not" what I see before me. This results in a an odd sense of unease or a feeling of being lost in the world. My experiences are more vital, but they're equally confusing at times. Don't worry; these are not psychotic episodes, but I feel like I'm in a between-place in which at one moment I stand on solid ground regarding what I understand, and at another moment, I don't seem to be standing on anything. Is this a common experience at a certain stage in practice, or is this just practice itself, something I should get used to. Thanks for any guidance in this matter.

Gassho,

Michael

ST

LAH

[Jundo]

Hi Michael,

I am really not sure what is going on with you, and what is causing this from your description. However, as we encourage Practice here, it should not be so confusing or disorienting like this. Seems very intense for you.

Can you describe your Practice? What do you mean that you are trying to "remain focused on the here and now"? That can mean very many different things. What are you reading and studying? What is the content and focus of the Zazen you are sitting?

You can PM me privately if you want, but have you ever had any events or issues in your past that may be connected to this, or may somehow be getting triggered?

It is not so common, but it may be that this Practice is not for you, or you need to work with an in person teacher and group that can assist you more closely.

I am just not sure, so please provide a bit more information.

Gassho, Jundo

PS - Never feel your questions are stupid or wrong,

[Mp]

Hello Michael,

Thank you for taking the time to open up and share, that can be a hard thing to do. We are here to help in anyway that we can, but I too will agree with Jundo and I am a bit confused on what maybe bothering or interfering with your life. Can you be more specific? If it is personal you can always PM Jundo as he said, or anyone who you may feel comfortable with.

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Kokuu]

Hi Michael

I would certainly suggest taking Jundo up on his offer to speak about this privately. He is far more experienced in meditation practice than pretty much everyone here, and is the teacher for a reason!

However, I will add that I have also experienced this if I understand you correctly. When you get glimpses of emptiness/sunyata, phenomenon can feel less real, less solid, and that is disconcerting to the normal human mind. Similarly, when we get a direct experience of our lack of self, that can be a very odd thing and quite scary.

Personally, I find that these experiences pass although I have also become more used to their occurrence so they do not discomfort me so much.

In The Diamond Sutra, Buddha is reported to say this:


“So I say to you –
This is how to contemplate our conditioned existence in this fleeting world:”

“Like a tiny drop of dew, or a bubble floating in a stream;
Like a flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
Or a flickering lamp, an illusion, a phantom, or a dream.”

“So is all conditioned existence to be seen.”

I don't know if it is just using similes, but it seems to me that conditioned existence can feel like that.

However, take advice from Jundo. I am just a novice priest and he is the teacher.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Michael Joseph]

Hi Michael

However, I will add that I have also experienced this if I understand you correctly. When you get glimpses of emptiness/sunyata, phenomenon can feel less real, less solid, and that is disconcerting to the normal human mind. Similarly, when we get a direct experience of our lack of self, that can be a very odd thing and quite scary.

Personally, I find that these experiences pass although I have also become more used to their occurrence so they do not discomfort me so much.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

Kokuu,

Thank you for your insight, especially since my OP was less than clear. This does sound similar to what I'm experiencing. It's not intense, though I have nothing to measure it against, but it is unusual, thus the difficulty I'm having in putting it into words. I will PM Jundo, as you and Shingen (thank you, Shingen) suggest.

Gassho,

Michael

ST/LAH

[Jakuden]

What Kokuu said resonates with me. I have had moments on this journey where I questioned everything I thought I knew. I think it turned out to be a good thing [emoji846] Perhaps sometimes it’s a matter of establishing a new relationship with the universe, since our original self-centered perception no longer seems to fit. If it is scary and disorienting, that could be a concern... otherwise, you likely will eventually become comfortable with your more awakened perspective. Just a guess, but I had a “I’ve been there” feeling about your post!
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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[Zenmei]

Michael,

I think I’ve felt what you’re describing. I think for me, it’s a symptom of my recovery. I spent so many years in addiction that I completely warped my view of the world and of myself. For most addicts, lying and rationalizing and twisting things to suit your own desires becomes normal. Sometimes to the point where you fully believe your own bullshit, and that just becomes the way things are. Now that I’m clean and working through all this karma of delusion, I have times where I start to question the reality I’m perceiving. A few years ago, I thought I was seeing and understanding the world clearly. Now I can look back on that and see how deluded I was. So I have moments where I think “I was so wrong before, how do I know what’s real now?”. And I don’t know. I just keep putting one foot in front of the other with the faith that the ground will be there when I take the next step. Most of the time, it is.

Gassho, Zenmei


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[Michael Joseph]

What Kokuu said resonates with me. I have had moments on this journey where I questioned everything I thought I knew. I think it turned out to be a good thing [emoji846] Perhaps sometimes it’s a matter of establishing a new relationship with the universe, since our original self-centered perception no longer seems to fit. If it is scary and disorienting, that could be a concern... otherwise, you likely will eventually become comfortable with your more awakened perspective. Just a guess, but I had a “I’ve been there” feeling about your post!
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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Jakuden,

This is well-stated touches on what I've been feeling. Now that some time has passed since my OP, I've dropped the anxiety about speaking of this, and I can more clearly state that I do find myself interrogating my experiences more than I have in the past--or, if not more, then differently. Among the most fascinating and frustrating experiences is moving between feeling present in the moment and then not feeling present. During the former, I almost feel wrapped up in a blanket--nurtured, I suppose--and during the latter, I have an experience similar to the opening lines of of Mark Strand's poem "Keeping Things Whole:" "In a filed/I am the absence/of field." I don't find the experience at all scary, but I wanted to make sure that it was something that I shouldn't be scared of. :) Thank you for sharing your insight. It's quite helpful.

Gassho,

Michael

ST/LAH

[Michael Joseph]

Michael,

I think I’ve felt what you’re describing. I think for me, it’s a symptom of my recovery. I spent so many years in addiction that I completely warped my view of the world and of myself. For most addicts, lying and rationalizing and twisting things to suit your own desires becomes normal. Sometimes to the point where you fully believe your own bullshit, and that just becomes the way things are. Now that I’m clean and working through all this karma of delusion, I have times where I start to question the reality I’m perceiving. A few years ago, I thought I was seeing and understanding the world clearly. Now I can look back on that and see how deluded I was. So I have moments where I think “I was so wrong before, how do I know what’s real now?”. And I don’t know. I just keep putting one foot in front of the other with the faith that the ground will be there when I take the next step. Most of the time, it is.

Gassho, Zenmei


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Zemmei,

This is part of what I'm experiencing, too. I owe you a PM. Thanks.

Gassho,

Michael

ST/LAH

[Jundo]

Hi Michael,

Thank you for your patience. Life intervened a bit yesterday.

Your words here and your PM to me both help me have a better picture. First, never ever feel "wrong" or embarrassed about asking a question. That is especially so, as your question here is so important and helpful to yourself and to others.

My only concern when someone comes to me saying that they feel "confused" or "disoriented" by the Practice is the length and degree, and whether it is truly destabilizing (more than they can handle) or otherwise negative, or if it is a temporary and important "lessen" as this practice hits the "reset" button on how we see our little "self" and the world that seems to be leading in a positive direction. From what you describe, this seems right now to be the latter.

The little self is filled and driven with its demands, judgments and sense of being separate from the world, and the world seems so solid and hard. There is friction. As that softens, one can feel that one is not standing on such solid ground as one thought. It can be unsettling. The world "is" but "is not."

My only question is whether this becomes a healthful and wholesome experience in which one is soon left feeling totally connected to the world. What you describe is perfectly normal and helpful lessons on this Path, as you see through the small self. Yes, as the "reset" button on how we see things is pushed, it can sometimes feel confusing and disorienting. However, overall, this Path should be positive in one's life, and should make one feel totally at home in life. So, if such periods are too overwhelming, or last too long, or feel more negative or disorienting than one feels that one can handle, then I am more concerned. Some people are more psychologically sensitive, and I have to be on the lookout for this if someone feels there is a too extreme negative side to what they are experiencing. Your words don't lead me to feel so.

Some more intense forms of Zazen or other meditation (such as Rinzai Koan Introspection) actually push people intentionally toward feelings of great disorientation or "doubt" or intensity. In contrast, I believe that our Shikantaza Path should feel balanced and healthful most of the time. Thus, if what you describe is temporary and you feel that you can "handle it," I think it is an important and good experience, a stepping stone as your "self" softens a bit. It might be a little confusing for the short-term, but soon should lead to a feeling of connectedness and a positive effect in one's life.

Others here said it so well. Jinmei said this (she deleted her comment for some reason, but I am still going to quote from it):


As with all things, we just sit with these new emotions and discoveries and questions; and let them rest. Also realize that what you see in front of you as real and true might not be the same for another person; this is ego. Let that rest as well. There are days when I feel the same way that you described; not truly feeling like I'm standing on solid ground with some of our teachings and my understanding of them. But I think this is a totally normal part of practice. Yet, we practice anyway. We keep reading and studying and sitting and letting it and life sink in.

Kokuu said ...


... I have also experienced this if I understand you correctly. When you get glimpses of emptiness/sunyata, phenomenon can feel less real, less solid, and that is disconcerting to the normal human mind. Similarly, when we get a direct experience of our lack of self, that can be a very odd thing and quite scary.

Personally, I find that these experiences pass although I have also become more used to their occurrence so they do not discomfort me so much.


Jakuden said ...


Perhaps sometimes it’s a matter of establishing a new relationship with the universe, since our original self-centered perception no longer seems to fit. If it is scary and disorienting, that could be a concern... otherwise, you likely will eventually become comfortable with your more awakened perspective. Just a guess, but I had a “I’ve been there” feeling about your post!

Zenmei said ...


... you fully believe your own bullshit, and that just becomes the way things are. Now that I’m clean and working through all this karma of delusion, I have times where I start to question the reality I’m perceiving. A few years ago, I thought I was seeing and understanding the world clearly. Now I can look back on that and see how deluded I was. So I have moments where I think “I was so wrong before, how do I know what’s real now?”. And I don’t know. I just keep putting one foot in front of the other with the faith that the ground will be there when I take the next step. Most of the time, it is.

Boy, folks express this so well! That's right, it should lead to the positive and an even more "at home" and (as though it seems counter-intuitive that feeling more "fluid" can do so) "solid" connection to the world. For a time, however, it can be like a sailor getting sea legs, and disorienting. Listen to what the folks say from there experience.

My only concern again is for the rare person who might find it too much too handle, or if it goes on too long or is too disorienting. Then we have to reassess. Some fragile folks can get truly lost at sea. But if it feels positive, then we celebrate instead. You say ...


... During the former, I almost feel wrapped up in a blanket--nurtured, I suppose--and during the latter, I have an experience similar to the opening lines of of Mark Strand's poem "Keeping Things Whole:" "In a filed/I am the absence/of field." I don't find the experience at all scary

So long as it is something like that, I don't think it is anything but good.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Jundo]

One more comment ... take your Practice easy, not too loose and not too tight.

Sometimes folks can try to force it, and be too intense in daily life. This causes strange and unhealthy states of mind. For example, they try to always "be in the moment, be in the moment," and it is a bit too high pressure and intense. I don't encourage this. Just relax and be in the moment. One does not have to be in the moment every moment (you are "in the moment" even if you don't realize so)! :)

I posted about that once ...

Being mindful of 'mindful'
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7910-Being-mindful-of-mindful

This is a lifetime gentle hike through the mountains, not a sprint.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Michael Joseph]

Jundo,

gassho2. I have more complete response on PM, though I'm not sure how to add anything to this whole-hearted gassho.

Michael

ST/LAH

[Tom0206]

Apologies for jumping on this post but I’ve a related question. Is sunyata/ emptiness the same, a component of, indivisible from ‘direct experience’? I guess what I’m trying to ask is does direct unfiltered experience emanate from sunyata or vice versa. Or am I barking up at the wrong imaginary tree?
Gassho.
Tom
Sat today

[Jundo]

Apologies for jumping on this post but I’ve a related question. Is sunyata/ emptiness the same, a component of, indivisible from ‘direct experience’? I guess what I’m trying to ask is does direct unfiltered experience emanate from sunyata or vice versa. Or am I barking up at the wrong imaginary tree?
Gassho.
Tom
Sat today

Hi Tom,

I rather doubt that a brain can have a truly "direct experience," since we are always experiencing a mental interpretation of the data entering the senses, categorized and judged by the mind. In other words, you do not truly see that "beautiful green tree" you think you see outside, but likely only an image in the mind (seemingly from photons which came from something outside) which appears in the brain as an image and experience we package and interpret and might then call "beautiful green tree." Even if you strip away much of the interpretation and categorizing, all you will still be experiencing is a brain image of the electro-chemical signals from the senses.

Of course, we are constantly having a direct experience of that virtual image! In other words, you are having a direct experience in your consciousness of that "beautiful green tree" when seeing and experiencing it. One might say that our every waking moment is a "direct experience" in that way. I think the Buddhist philosophers of old who spoke of "direct experiences" did not have a modern understanding of how the mind works. As I sometimes say, I have never actually met my wife, only the mental image of her that I have in my brain that hopefully relates to something and someone "out there." However, I still love her, and have a "direct experience" of that love for (my image of) her. :)

Sunyata/Emptiness is not really related to that, but refers to the constant change, and lack of truly solid and fixed nature, of any phenomenon in reality. All is constantly changing and flowing. You and the mountain, although seemingly solid, are constantly changing. Further, one might say that all of reality is a kind of flowing wholeness that, under certain conditions at certain points in space and time, comes together as you or the mountain and all other things. You are really that flowing wholeness temporarily come together in the constantly changing form you feel as "you."

Anyway, too much Buddhist philosophy here. Let us just sit and experience that we are the flowing wholeness. We can have a "direct experience" in some sense of this sensation of "flowing wholeness" in our minds when we sit Zazen.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Jundo]

Let me clarify a bit the above:

I believe that when we are experiencing "Emptiness," we are actually via Zazen replacing one mental model of reality (one in which we feel permanence about ourself, and a hard border between our "I" and the outside world) with an alternative, but very wonderful and equally valid model (one in which the hard borders between the "I" and outside soften or fully drop away, and one experience the Great Flowing Wholeness sometimes called "Emptiness" flowing in and out and as us and all things). We can't get away from experiencing the world through our mental experience during this life, with this brain and body.

However, we are having a "direct experience" of said mental models!

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tom0206]

Thank you for your response Jundo.
With direct experience, I should have added that what I was meant, that which is experienced without likes/dislike, mental fabrication etc.
Your explanation of the borders dissolving between I and the outside world resonates.
Gassho

[Shinshou]

Hi Tom,

I rather doubt that a brain can have a truly "direct experience," since we are always experiencing a mental interpretation of the data entering the senses, categorized and judged by the mind. In other words, you do not truly see that "beautiful green tree" you think you see outside, but likely only an image in the mind (seemingly from photons which came from something outside) which appears in the brain as an image and experience we package and interpret and might then call "beautiful green tree." Even if you strip away much of the interpretation and categorizing, all you will still be experiencing is a brain image of the electro-chemical signals from the senses.


SatTodayLAH

As Eknath Easwaran, the Hindu writer, likes to note: we cannot experience the world, only our own nervous system.

Daniel (Shoshu)

Sat Today