Domyo Burke’s talk on Dharma Transmission

[Tairin]

Domyo Burke’s podcast is a favourite of many of us here. I found her recent talk on Dharma Transmission to be very interesting. In this talk she describes the events leading up to her transmission, the criteria, some of the pitfalls etc.

I know one of the challenges Jundo faces with an all online Sangha is the legitimacy of what is done here vs the institutionalize norms around the various Zen ceremonies which assume an intimate i.e. face to face interaction. As far as I know Jundo has not granted Dharma Transmission to any Unsui. It will be interesting to witness once this does happen.

Anyway here’s the link to Domyo’s talk. http://zenstudiespodcast.com/dharma-transmission-1/

gassho2
Tairin
Sat today

[Meitou]

Thanks for this Tairin, I've been wondering about transmission in Zen, because it seems to have a different meaning to transmission in Tibetan Buddhism.
Gassho
Meitou

satwithyoualltoday/lah

[Jundo]

Domyo Burke’s podcast is a favourite of many of us here. I found her recent talk on Dharma Transmission to be very interesting. In this talk she describes the events leading up to her transmission, the criteria, some of the pitfalls etc.

I know one of the challenges Jundo faces with an all online Sangha is the legitimacy of what is done here vs the institutionalize norms around the various Zen ceremonies which assume an intimate i.e. face to face interaction. As far as I know Jundo has not granted Dharma Transmission to any Unsui. It will be interesting to witness once this does happen.

Anyway here’s the link to Domyo’s talk. http://zenstudiespodcast.com/dharma-transmission-1/

gassho2
Tairin
Sat today

We will have a big announcement about Dharma Transmission here at Treeleaf very soon.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Souchi]

Wo-hoo, Jundo, light up the fire of speculation [morehappy]
Just kidding...

In the meantime, some of you might be interested in these essays on the topic of Dharma Transmission which are linked on the thezensite (http://www.thezensite.com/MainPages/critical_zen.html). Just some food for thought, please check for yourself if you agree with the opinions stated there or not:

James Ishmael Ford: "A Note On Dharma Transmission And The Institutions Of Zen" (http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/CriticalZen/Dharma_Transmission_Institutions.html)
Stuart Lachs: "The Zen Master in America: Dressing the Donkey with Bells and Scarves" (http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/CriticalZen/Zen_Master_in_America.html), "Coming Down from the Zen Clouds - A Critique of the Current State of American Zen" (http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/CriticalZen/ComingDownfromtheZenClouds.htm) & "Interview with Stuart Lachs" (http://www.nondualitymagazine.org/nondualitymagazine.2/nonduality_magazine.2.stuartlachs.interview.htm)

Please also note that those essays belong to the category "critiques of zen" of the aforementied site and that at least one of the essays of Stuart Lachs is described as controversial.

Gassho,
Souchi

SatToday

[Jundo]

Please also note that those essays belong to the category "critiques of zen" of the aforementied site and that at least one of the essays of Stuart Lachs is described as controversial.

Gassho,
Souchi

SatToday

Stuart Lachs makes some valid points about some folks who had extremely romantic views of Dharma Transmission and Teachers in past decades in the West, sometimes resulting in cult-like (or nearly so) atmosphere in their communities (see my recent post here on Andrew - No Relation - Cohen, Surviving A Cult) ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?16066-Andrew-Cohen-Surviving-A-Cult

... but Lachs also paints with a broad brush, is too extreme in his conclusions and overstates the case. "Zen At War" author Brian Victoria can also be accused of the same. A bit of an axe to grind from those two. Nonetheless, I agree with the majority of what Mr. Lachs has to say about the problem Teachers whom he calls out.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Kyonin]

Thank you Tairin!

i'll give it a listen as soon as possible. I really enjoy that podcast.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[Jakuden]

Thank you Tairin, I am a little behind on her podcast but am almost up to this one, looking forward to it!

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Getchi]

From Terebees;


In this paper, I discuss
developments in the conceptualization of transmission and enlightenment in the
Platform Sutra’s main line of development, beginning with the earliest version
found at Dunhuang leading down to the orthodox version included in the Taishō
canon

"Transmission and Enlightenment ...Seen Through the Platform Sūtra"
https://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Transmission-and-Enlightenment-in-Chan-Zen-Buddhism.pdf

Very interesting read from an historical (6thC - 13thC) and academic perspective (Schlutter is Asst.Prof at the Uni of Iowa) but means nothing in the context of a living tradition, like Jundo and Treeleaf.



Gassho,
Geoff.

SatToday
LaH.

[Jundo]

From Terebees;



"Transmission and Enlightenment ...Seen Through the Platform Sūtra"
https://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Transmission-and-Enlightenment-in-Chan-Zen-Buddhism.pdf

Very interesting read from an historical (6thC - 13thC) and academic perspective (Schlutter is Asst.Prof at the Uni of Iowa) but means nothing in the context of a living tradition, like Jundo and Treeleaf.



Gassho,
Geoff.

SatToday
LaH.

Fixed your link.

Actually, if I recall Prof. Schlutter's article, it does. The 6th Ancestor, Hui-Neng, was a lay person when he received Dharma Transmission and was made the "6th Ancestor." He was a worker in the kitchen of the monastery, and said to be illiterate, not a monk who was training there. This is a major statement in our Tradition of this Path being open to anyone. It also tells how many in the "Buddhist establishment" would not have understood this, so Hui-neng had to play it low key for awhile.


The Platform Sutra is one of the best know, most beloved and most widely read
of all Chan texts. The first part of the Platform Sutra tells in dramatic fashion of
how an illiterate seller of firewood known as Huineng is initially enlightened upon
hearing the Diamond Sutra recited. This inspires him to travel to the monastery
of the fifth patriarch of Chan, Hongren, where, in spite of the fact that Hongren
recognizes his superior understanding, Huineng is employed as a lowly worker.
Later Huineng proves himself by composing a poem illustrating an understanding
of inherent Buddha-nature that is vastly superior to that of the favored disciple of
Hongren, Shenxiu 神秀 (606?–706). Then, in the secrecy of night, Hongren gives
Huineng Dharma transmission as the sixth patriarch and also transmits the robe
of the first patriarch Bodhidharma to him. Fearing that people will harm Huineng,
Hongren sends him away and tells him to stay hidden for several years. Eluding
those who want to kill him and take Bodhidharma’s robe, Huineng escapes. He
eventually becomes publicly recognized as the sixth patriarch and the second part
of the Platform Sutra records Huineng’s sermons and encounters with disciples
and others, as well as protracted parting instructions to his disciples before his
death.
The great appeal of the Platform Sutra to both monastics and laypeople probably
lies in its dramatic and exciting narrative and in the fact that Huineng is
depicted as both illiterate and a lay person when he receives Hongren’s Dharma
(he is, however, understood to later become a monk even if this is not always made
explicit).

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Getchi]

Gassho, I meant no disrespect, "means nothing" is only that this article may or may not have bearing on TL. I am not the authority.

Huineng's story wasa major inspiratin to me slowly leaving bahind old practices,its beena few years now and I think id love to visithim one day at Nanhua Temple.

4998 4999

gassho1:TL:



Gassho,
Geoff.

SatToday
LaH.

[Jakuden]

Wow there are pictures of Huineng? Is that his body? [emoji15]
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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[Jundo]

Wow there are pictures of Huineng? Is that his body? [emoji15]
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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I was able to sit Sesshin at Nanhua Temple in China a few years ago ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=30&v=oIsQ91b0xUg

(They happened to be making a documentary. You get to play "Where's Jundo?", cause I am in there somewhere. In fact, my big cameos come about the 00:20 and 02:50 marks ... where I can be found cruising in the inside "slow lane" of the Kinhin highway, closest to the Buddha statue). gassho1

Yes, I was able to pay my respects to the mummy of our Sixth Ancestor, Hui-Neng. He is in a glass case.

Of course ... it is a question whether much of him is actually in there, or whether it is actually Hui-Neng. There are serious doubts, not to mention that the head was once stolen centuries ago, and that it was quite abused during the more recent Cultural Revolution. Also, please remember that Hui-neng, like Bodhidharma and many of our older Ancestors, are more religious paradigm and legend than necessarily historical fact, and it is doubtful that the Platform Sutra (there are actually many, ever changing versions) is an historical account. Hui-neng became "Hui-neng" in later story telling. Buddhist mummy scholar and historian Robert Sharf writes (PDF, page 10 and footnote 27 here):

http://buddhiststudies.berkeley.edu/people/faculty/sharf/documents/Sharf1992,%20Mummification.pdf

https://icbi.weebly.com/uploads/9/4/8/2/9482304/5108940.jpg?327

There is a whole tradition of mummifying Zen Masters and other Buddhist monks in Asia, sometimes through various techniques begun while the person was still alive! There are similar mummies of Buddhist monks in Japan, one within an hour drive from Treeleaf. We can visit sometime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_mummies

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokushinbutsu

Hey, when I go ... maybe I should try it! You can keep me in the garage.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Shokai]

At your relative pace shown in the video maybe you're ready now. :D

Seriously, I'd suspect the mummy is mostly, if not all wax by now. Lenin's body is preserved on view in a hermetically sealed case in one of the building on Red Square in Moscow. They take him out once a year and repair the advancing decomposition. It was believed in the early nineties that he was then mostly mortician's wax and that's was only since 1924 (less than seventy years?) Of course it could be that their mummifying technique was less than perfect. The old Zen Masters could have been better preserved.

gassho, Shokai

stlah

[Jakuden]

I was able to sit Sesshin at Nanhua Temple in China a few years ago ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=30&v=oIsQ91b0xUg

(They happened to be making a documentary. You get to play "Where's Jundo?", cause I am in there somewhere. In fact, my big cameos come about the 00:20 and 02:50 marks ... where I can be found cruising in the inside "slow lane" of the Kinhin highway, closest to the Buddha statue). gassho1

Yes, I was able to pay my respects to the mummy of our Sixth Ancestor, Hui-Neng. He is in a glass case.

Of course ... it is a question whether much of him is actually in there, or whether it is actually Hui-Neng. There are serious doubts, not to mention that the head was once stolen centuries ago, and that it was quite abused during the more recent Cultural Revolution. Also, please remember that Hui-neng, like Bodhidharma and many of our older Ancestors, are more religious paradigm and legend than necessarily historical fact, and it is doubtful that the Platform Sutra (there are actually many, ever changing versions) is an historical account. Hui-neng because "Hui-neng" in later story telling. Buddhist mummy scholar and historian Robert Sharf writes (PDF, page 10 and footnote 27 here):

http://buddhiststudies.berkeley.edu/people/faculty/sharf/documents/Sharf1992,%20Mummification.pdf

https://icbi.weebly.com/uploads/9/4/8/2/9482304/5108940.jpg?327

There is a whole tradition of mummifying Zen Masters and other Buddhist monks in Asia, sometimes through various techniques begun while the person was still alive! There are similar mummies of Buddhist monks in Japan, one within an hour drive from Treeleaf. We can visit sometime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_mummies

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokushinbutsu

Hey, when I go ... maybe I should try it! You can keep me in the garage.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Haha I can find Jundo Roshi in the video by looking for the beard 🧔[emoji4]

I guess it’s not that different than how Christians have people entombed in some churches. At St. Peter’s Basilica in the Vatican they rotate the Popes out into glass cases and the crowds file by. I found it both morbid and fascinating.

I wonder if they could do DNA analysis of some sort to see if that is really Hui-neng. It is true all is impermanent, and the teachings and legends are the thing, but we do like to feel our physical connection with the ancestors too. What odd beings we are.

Not sure I’m odd enough though
to want a mummy of my teacher any more than I’d want to stuff one of my deceased pets, sorry Jundo [emoji12] Although I do have all their ashes in the closet, so what’s that all about?

Gassho
Jakuden


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

I wonder if they could do DNA analysis of some sort to see if that is really Hui-neng.

Yes, all we have to do is find his hair brush or his children. :p

[Jakuden]

Yes, all we have to do is find his hair brush or his children. :p

You should see how fast the DNA databases, like Ancestry.com, are growing. (I’ve discovered over 100 cousins in two years)! I wouldn’t rule out the possibility that someday the family line could be found. As a matter of fact I think they are doing it with the royal lineages in Europe as bones are found under parking lots although that’s much more recent history.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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[Washin]

Thank you, Tairin.
Looking forward to listening to this later on this week.

Gassho
Washin
st

[Chishou]

Will TL be branching out into the mummied Zen teacher business? We could set up a webcam, and people can pay a donation to access it.

All in favour say aye.

Chishou
Sat.

[Getchi]

Wow Jundo, that is really cool! Ive heard the entirearea is beautiful, and hemountainsthere hole many Tang eratemples.

Asfor Huineng's mummy; I have had the same broom now for 12 years. Ive only replaced the handle three times andthe head twice.It is the same broom. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

Preparing a body for this process is difficult, legend tells Huineng was left to dessicate within a large urn for 2 years, then his body was wrapped with lacquered cloth strips. As Jundo said, the head was stolen once and the entire body smashed by teh RedGuard during teh revolution.

There was a Japanese sect who self mummified by refusing water and food gradually before dying in small caves sitting up, and many buddhist statues have been shown to contain bodies of practitioners.

I would not be volunteering for any of these painful processes lol


Gassho,
Geoff

SatToday
LaH.