Can you separate 'Zen' from Zen Buddhism?

[Eishuu]

One of my sangha buddhies sent me a really interesting question. I've done my best to answer it from my experience of Zen, but suggested getting other people's perspectives. Here is her question:

"When you type in “Zen Buddhism” into YouTube, (which I realize isn’t always the best source of information but bare with me) one of the first videos that pops up is by a guy named Koi Fresco. (Now-a-days he practices Advaita Vedanta, but he used to practice Buddhism and has done a whole series of Buddhism on his channel that seemed pretty reliable/accurate.)

https://youtu.be/q9qC21gfbEU

There’s a link to the video.

He states in the video that Zen at its core isn’t actually Buddhism, and reading through the comments, a bunch of people agree with him, and a small handful of people disagree with him.

It is my understanding that Buddhism, the four noble truths, the eightfold path, our bodhisattva vows/ precepts are all an essential aspect to Zen and Zen practice. Otherwise I’m misunderstanding.

There are plenty or reliable people on YouTube, for example Brad Warner, Who is actually one of Jundo’s “Dharma brothers” under Nishijima Roshi just to name one of my favorites to watch. But I digress. This opinion of “Zen” just seems really “off” to me. Or maybe just an incredibly “westernized” opinion of Zen? Actually, I’m just confused by this whole video/ opinion in general. I would love to see what you think or how you feel about this."

Thank you gassho2

Gassho
Eishuu
ST/LAH

[Shinshi]

My 2 cents: Zen is a type of Buddhism. You can take the techniques of Zen Buddhism (sitting etc.) and apply them but it is no longer Zen. It is something else. And it might be good for you to do, but it is no longer Zen. It is kind of like just eating the stuffing in Oreo cookie. You might enjoy it, but it isn't the whole thing. :)

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Chishou]

I’ve seen some of Koi’s videos, I don’t agree with what he says about Zen. As zens focus is on zazen which was a prime component of the Buddha’s original teachings. But, then again, what really is Buddhism? It merely challenges our common-sense view of reality until we realise it is just a viewpoint. Points of view are okay, but they are not reality itself.

To me, Zen and Buddhism are to co-dependant entities that are intimately linked “not-two”.

Standing by for Big J’s teaching!

Chishou.
Sat


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[Geika]

It's just his opinion. :)

Gassho, sat today, lah

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[Jakuden]

Well, I am studying the history of Mahayana Buddhism currently, and since Zen can be traced back in its ancestry as a branch of Mahayana Buddhism, then I would not have thought to question it. But I guess with any religious sect, we could decide that it has changed from the original enough to arbitrarily decide that it should have a different label, or that it doesn't somehow "deserve" the original one anymore. It seems like a waste of time to debate the semantics of it, although it sure seems to amuse some folks!

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Shoki]

I disagree with what he says. But I think the cat is right.

Gassho
Sat Today / LAH
James

[Rich]

When Bodhidharma moved to China he brought true Buddhism which is called Zen or Chan Buddhism. Now it's here [emoji4]

SAT today

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[Jundo]

Hi Eishuu,

Yes, a subtle question. Zen is and is not thoroughly Buddhism. [monk]

Zen is not Buddhism because the experience of Zen is simply to realize the Wholeness of this reality which includes all things and people, all words and names and beyond name, beyond yet including any and all categories including "Buddhism" or any other religion or no religion, tables and chairs, mountains and stars, Eishuu and Jundo and "Koi Fresco."

Yet, Zen emerged from Mahayana Buddhism, and in order to realize the above, there are Buddhist Teachings and Practices that are part and parcel of Zen, including Zazen, the Four Noble Truths, Impermanence, Non-self and many more. To some degree, one might practice "Zen" or "Zazen" without calling it so. For example, many people these days who practice "Mindfulness" meditation are often practicing Buddhism in disguise, i.e., Buddhist perspectives and practices which just change the name. However, they also risk watering down some Teachings or missing the point when they do so, e.g., when "Mindfulness" is used to just help business people make more money, or just feel a little less "stressed" and complacent in life, instead of as a true Path of Liberation. If one removes Zen from the Mahayana Buddhist Teachings and Practices which provide insight and direction, one just risks going off into strange directions or overly watering down the soup.

Other people, like this "Koi Fresco" seem to confuse Zen with other Eastern Teachings, and lump them all together, when there are important, subtle differences. The most common difference is that many of these folks seem to be interested in wild, psychedelic spiritual experiences, energies and "bliss" trips etc. that take them out of this world. Our Soto Way finds the greatest and wildest "trip" right in this seemingly most ordinary world when our eyes are opened to see, and the true Path of Liberation is ever right underfoot.

I am not sure what Koi has to say about Zen, but who can tell in the mess of teachings and recommendations on his website? "Superconsiousness in 3 Steps"? "Spirit Guides"? "How to Astral Project"? This guys is really selling a whole department store of the New Age.

https://www.youtube.com/user/koiscorner/videos

He says some thing that show that he really does not understand Buddhism and Zen, or even the path of Advaita Vedanta that he has switched to. (In his Zen Talk, he says some things that are just silly, such as that "almost all the temples in Japan are Zen temples and meditation halls," and the point of Zen is just to experience things for the first time, that Zazen is sitting in blocking thoughts in thoughtlessness, and all kinds of half-informed things. His explanation of Koans is weird) Anyway, small quibbles. Seems like a spiritual showman. Looks like he is making a good living with his website.

That is my answer.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[arthus]

When I was younger I wore clothes, but they are not the clothes I wear now.

-Arthus


Tuesday - Sat Down -

[Shoki]

Jundo, Thanks for nicely summarizing this. By cooincidence I stumbled on this guy's videos while surfing Youtube a few days ago. He just sounds like a pan-spiritual, new age, hipster dabbler. He reminds me of the people who I would just keep walking past when they would approach me on my college campus in the 1970s.

Gassho, LAH
Sat Today
James

[Getchi]

Just pay attention to Jundo, try out the teachings and decide for yourself - would be my only answer to these people.

Everything, ultimately, is bullshit. But some will make roses bloom.

But - I only use youtube for watching IronMaiden clips and my kids minecraft projects.




GAssho

Geoff.

SatToday
LaH

[Jishin]

Everything, ultimately, is bullshit. But some will make roses bloom.



[emoji2]

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_ , LAH

[bayamo]

Everything, ultimately, is bullshit. But some will make roses bloom.

SatToday
LaH

i'll keep this in mind from now on!!

#sattoday

[Jishin]

Everything, ultimately, is bullshit. But some will make roses bloom.




I think bullshit here is a positive thing leveling all things and teachings to the formless emptiness. Teachings point to but are never the real thing.

Way to go Getchi!

My 2cents

[emoji2]

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_ , LAH

[Getchi]

I think bullshit here is a positive thing leveling all things and teachings to the formless emptiness. Teachings point to but are never the real thing.

Way to go Getchi!

My 2cents

[emoji2]

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_ , LAH



Right you are Jishin, I dont mean to say things are not worth learning, only to ask WHY are they worth learning?

Buddhist precepts, ethical behaviours and faith in the Buddha and his community are largely beneficial things that can truly give meaning to life.

But IMO "Faith / Trust in Mind" is the thing that really marks out Zen thinking. It is a very tricky thing, it can lead to real existential angst - but for me I feel alive more fully then ever before.

I would therefore say that this brand of "Zen: is bullshit that is also "true".

Understanding that we only ever touch refelctions of the things themselves, even when not seperate form those things themself, is as close as we come to Mind in a normal sense IMO.


And now we come full circle to me pointing out what a load of waffle that was; so many words to simply say that you cannot ever take the "opinion" out of the "person".




Gassho,
Geoff.


SatToday / LaH.