Lost in confusion [Archive]

babyleaf

02-25-2018, 11:34 AM

Seishin

02-25-2018, 01:14 PM

Gaby

Cant say I've experienced exactly that but certainly times of great mind storms I've found difficult to escape.
Those more experienced will no doubt offer advice but I'd suggest deep focus on your breathing or even try the old counting to ten routine. If that settles things down, return to normal breaths.

Hope that helps

Std

Seishin

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Tairin

02-25-2018, 02:16 PM

What you describe sounds pretty intense but my suggestion is the same as Seishin’s. When I sit I try to sit with the open awareness that Jundo speaks of in the Beginners videos but if I am having a particularly rough time settling then I will do the cycle of counting my breaths to 10. Sometimes I only need a cycle or two to settle.

Don’t follow your thoughts just gently bring yourself back to your breathe.

gassho2
Tairin
Sat today & lah

Jishin

02-25-2018, 03:32 PM

Hi Gaby,

Sit amidst confusion.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_ , LAH

Jakuden

02-25-2018, 03:33 PM

Hi Gaby,
I agree that returning to breath counting for awhile might help. It's fine that the thoughts keep coming, and the thought that you have to "go back to sitting" is just another thought. But you are already sitting, so there is nothing to go back to! You can feel free to let go of the thought that you must "go back to sitting" the same way you can let go of the other random thoughts and stories that pop up. It's also ok if confusion, fear, worry and so on come up, but don't invite them in for tea either... they are just sensations and energies our minds and bodies produce that will come and go on their own if we don't feed them. I think it's really hard for our brains to accept that "just sitting" is all we need to be doing, we want to search for something else, there has to be something more to it! But there isn't, just our hineys on the cushion, and we're there in all completeness and wholeness just like that!

Outside of Zazen, we might view this as either totally boring, since our minds crave stimulation so much, or as complete bliss, as we can put down the burden of following all those stories all the time. But during Zazen it is neither, it is just sitting facing the wall. Or a bedspread in my case.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

Kyonin

02-25-2018, 04:47 PM

Hi Gaby,

We sit with confusion, sadness and the whirlwind of thoughts. How to get back to just sitting? Just sit and don't question, don't justify or judge. Observe how confusion is present, how it wants to take control and then it starts to fade away.

I think the only trick is to simply sit even if the mind wants to go watch Netflix :)

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

Rich

02-25-2018, 05:18 PM

Yup, as said, sit with confusion, accept it, relax and let go

SAT today

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Eishuu

02-25-2018, 06:52 PM

Hi

It sounds like your 'doing' mind is flopping around like a fish out of water. You are already sitting, like Jakuden says. The thoughts about not doing it right are just thoughts - see if you can gently let go of the right/wrong thoughts and anxiety. If that just produces more anxiety, then I find Nishijima Roshi's suggestion to gently focus attention on the spine helpful...I find it grounding. Either that or you can focus on your breath for a bit.

And yes I have had this experience, quite a bit. It will probably settle down, especially if you relax and let go a bit.

Gassho
Eishuu
ST/LAH

Jundo

02-26-2018, 01:52 AM

Yes, all good advice here.

Our practice actually has aspects like walking vs. "trying to walk" or "trying to return to walking." Just relax and walk, though rain or sunshine, up hill or down, in mud puddles or over stones or smooth ground. (I was actually in rehabilitation late last year, and relearning to walk also involved relaxing and not trying so hard). Our Practice is about radically allowing, just being, not forcing. Recently, my daughter tried ice skating for the first time, clinging to the wall for dear life, and there came a moment when she suddenly relaxed, let go and just glided!

You cannot "go back to sitting" in Zazen, any more than one can go back to being "right here." Just realize that there is no place to "go back to," let go, stop trying so hard, relax, don't grab onto thought, let judgments go (even judgments about whether one is sitting "good" Zazen). Then, one may discover an equanimity, acceptance, wholeness, presence and "good" that comes from not seeking.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

babyleaf

02-26-2018, 11:00 AM

Thank you everyone for your replies. In addition to all the advice, it's always good to know we're not alone in these experiences.

I had the experience again today, except perhaps I was telling myself not to try to get back...which I see in retrospect is "doing"! I think I'm beginning to see that following all your advice when sitting is, paradoxically, to let go of that advice? Because even they too are arisings in the mind...

I can tell this will be a valuable lesson for me. Thank you all for your support.

Gassho
Gaby
SatToday

P.s. Thank you Eishuu for the fish out of water image...it makes the whole thing feel a little less serious!

Jundo

02-26-2018, 12:44 PM

.... I think I'm beginning to see that following all your advice when sitting is, paradoxically, to let go of that advice? Because even they too are arisings in the mind...

Yes!! gassho2

Heisoku

02-26-2018, 11:11 PM

Hi all. Paradoxically I find this an inspirational thread. One that parallels what Okamura describes in Living by Vow (p192) when he realises that 'although our capability is sometimes severely limited, we can find the compassionate Buddha that allows us to practice, if even only a little' .
This takes the pressure off the self impositions that can 'arise' rather than the unlimited ordinary just sitting that is our reality of our ordinary life in place right here.
Again thank you for an inspirational thread.
Gassho Heisoku
Sattoday / LAH

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moshezhang88

03-01-2018, 06:47 AM

Hi Everyone
When I seem to have painted myself into a corner...... i tell myself..... I know nothing.... so return to zero.... kind of like hitting the reset button....
I would like to ask everyone here.... should i see sitting Shikantaza as "every day, hitting the reset button?" Seems like we are tearing down false views, not building new ones.....
would love to get other persons thoughts on that.

Thank you
Gassho
Shou An
sat today......

Jundo

03-01-2018, 08:39 AM

Kyotai

03-01-2018, 10:54 AM

Hi Shou An

Our teacher says it well. Each moment, here..now.

But from a student's perspective..zazen helps me keep the focus on the here and now. So Yes, I would agree with you.

Gassho Kyotai
ST

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Ugrok

03-01-2018, 12:42 PM

Hi !

I've been through the exact same thing during some time, i know the feeling, and the sort of "mind loop" ("how do i not try to get out of what i'm not supposed to try to get out of ?") that can make you dizzy !

Just stand up when the bell rings was my answer, and still is. All of this does not really matter, it's part of the practice... Once you've been struggling a bit with all this, you will get tired of it and it will drop off naturally. And come back. And drop off. Etc... No worries !

Gassho,

Uggy
Sat today / LAH

Tai Shi

03-01-2018, 01:15 PM

Like you Jundo, about two weeks ago I had a total knee replacement. Unlike you Jundo, my replacement was quite different as he had cancer. I too had learn to walk again, Jundo faced a life treating situation. My PT told me I had made a speedy recovery not like the average patient. Some people take as long as six weeks to get to my point in recovery. With exercise and stretching, I have found myself upright, and like practice of sitting, persistence makes each step easier like in recovery the true stillness. So as for a few minutes to a few hours, sitting is the same result, that is to sit just like walking. We struggle with breathing or posture, or even hearing. Then one moment we reach Shikantaza. We are alone and quiet. It is a solitary place we have reached, for no one can do the point with us. So, we are alone yet perhaps with others.

Tai Shi
sat today
Gassho.

babyleaf

03-01-2018, 01:23 PM

Hello,

Heisoku, I'm really glad you found something of value in this thread! I'll be revisiting that quote of Okumura...

And thank you Uggy for your advice! I said this before, but it's great to know that we share these experiences. I don't have a group I meet so it can feel a little alone at times along this journey, but with everyone's advice and support here at Treeleaf it feels less so.

Wishing everyone a pleasant day.

Gassho
Gaby
SatToday

Kokuu

03-01-2018, 07:13 PM

My PT told me I had made a speedy recovery not like the average patient. Some people take as long as six weeks to get to my point in recovery. With exercise and stretching, I have found myself upright, and like practice of sitting, persistence makes each step easier like in recovery the true stillness.

That is good to hear, Tai Shi!

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

Sekishi

03-01-2018, 11:18 PM

So as for a few minutes to a few hours, sitting is the same result, that is to sit just like walking. We struggle with breathing or posture, or even hearing. Then one moment we reach Shikantaza. We are alone and quiet. It is a solitary place we have reached, for no one can do the point with us. So, we are alone yet perhaps with others.

I’m glad to hear recovery is going well my friend.

But I feel truly and completely that we are never alone. We are each different, with our own past and future, but never separate.

Nine bows,
Sekishi
#sat

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SNPII

05-20-2018, 04:49 AM

Hello everyone,

I'd love advice on sitting with confusion.

I have moments where I have no idea how to "go back to sitting". It's a bit of a psychologically uncomfortable state where I feel confused and worried. I get a little washed away by this type of experience and get caught in a loop of trying to go back to sitting but again, I have no idea how to, then I'm trying to go back to sitting but then I don't know how to, etc...

This has frequently lasted the whole session and I'm left feeling a little tense and confused. Has anyone experienced something like this before?

Thank you for reading.

Gassho
Gaby
SatToday

I completely understand what you are saying “Babyleaf”. I am often finding that I am trying to be so perfect in my practice and study. Through staying connected and developing on a trial basis a few ways and experiencing the different ways it makes me feel. When it feels right it just does. Don’t stress it. Love the name man!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180520/06758c72c8b534472b8f7eef2622939a.jpg

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Beldame

05-29-2018, 05:05 AM

Hi all. Paradoxically I find this an inspirational thread. One that parallels what Okamura describes in Living by Vow (p192) when he realises that 'although our capability is sometimes severely limited, we can find the compassionate Buddha that allows us to practice, if even only a little' . [....]
Gassho Heisoku
Sattoday / LAH

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I had barely started a sitting practice earlier this year and fell of the wagon in a big way the last two months. Have returned to sitting & to Treeleaf to find this thread and this quote from Living by Vow, which I find rather wonderful.

Gassho--
Deborah

SatToday

SNPII

07-03-2018, 05:56 AM

I had barely started a sitting practice earlier this year and fell of the wagon in a big way the last two months. Have returned to sitting & to Treeleaf to find this thread and this quote from Living by Vow, which I find rather wonderful.

Gassho--
Deborah

SatTodayGassho
Sat2day

In Sincerity
Shane