Understanding Death

[SoR]

As some of you may have seen from my post in the thread on The Departure (https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15941-A-Film-I-Know-Nothing-About-Recommendation&p=218132&viewfull=1#post218132), I recently had a death in my family due to suicide. This has really triggered something for me, because it was the death of my grandmother in 2009 that got me on this Zen rollercoaster in the first place.

So, it has me once again thinking about how to think about death and dying. This talk from Brad Warner popped up in my YouTube suggestions this morning and seemed rather timely:

https://youtu.be/RRpdy2fXxDc

I don't feel particularly scared of death, but I really have been haunted by it. I'm not a superstitious person, don't really believe in an afterlife, am skeptical of literal rebirth, etc. Yet I'm still haunted by this question: when we die, where do we go? Do we go anywhere?

I keep going back to the Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.063.than.html) on this, but would love to hear the thoughts of Jundo and others.

-Sam

#SatToday

[Shinshi]

Well, I have a couple of probably unhelpful answers. :)

The first is simply this. At the end of the day we won't ever know what comes next - if anything. All we can do is focus on the present moment and live this life in the moment as best we can.

Unhelpful I know.

The other is this. When I think of what happens when we die I am drawn back to the First law of Thermodynamics – Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. It can only change forms. And so I think we just kind of reintegrate with universe. The Buddha teaches that when we look deeply there is no separate self. So our perception of separate self dissipates when we die. However our Karma continues. We continue to exist in the memories of those who knew us. In the lives of our children. And the works we have done.

That is what I think today. I might change my mind tomorrow.

In the end, I think, all you can do is honor and remember those that have passed and keep living in the moment.

I am sorry you are going through these difficult times. Death of people that are important in our lives is often difficult and painful.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Shokai]

4930
stlah
i love this picture

gassho, Shokai

[Jishin]

Disciple asks:

“What happens when we die?”

Master:

“How should I know? I am not dead yet.”

Chop wood and carry water. That’s all.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_ , LAH

[Shokai]

Master; "Lived in Texas all your life?
Jishin; "Not yet!!"

gassho,

stlah

[Jishin]

[emoji2][emoji120]

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_ , LAH

[Shokai]

_/\_

[Eva]

Hello SoR,
what an interesting question .

Why not find out "where" you are right now, when you/we are still alive?

Thank you for asking and giving it a thought, I appreciate it .

Gassho,
eva
isattoday and also LAH

[Rich]

I like Kodo - no worries
Each moment is born and dies

SAT

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

I don't feel particularly scared of death, but I really have been haunted by it. I'm not a superstitious person, don't really believe in an afterlife, am skeptical of literal rebirth, etc. Yet I'm still haunted by this question: when we die, where do we go? Do we go anywhere?

I keep going back to the Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.063.than.html) on this, but would love to hear the thoughts of Jundo and others.



Hi Sam,

There are some things about death that most Zen folks agree upon, some things that we don't all agree upon.

First, what do most Zen folks agree upon? That "birth and death" are not the whole story. I spoke about this in this week's talk on the Sandokai for our Zazenkai. An aspect of Satori/Kensho is to realize that you and I are also ALL OF THIS, in the most radical and personal and intimate sense, flowing in and out and as each of us, and we are not only separate individuals. Then, it is like the wave on the sea, appearing and vanishing, that realizes that it is only the flowing sea all along. Imagine a leaf in autumn, somehow sentient and philosophical like us, that fears its upcoming death when it falls from the tree, yet realizes its nature as just the tree. The experience of Kensho (which is not only a momentary event, but can be a certainty which creeps into the bones over time) is the experience of ALL OF THIS flowing in and out and as the "I", as the hard borders of subject/object soften or fully drop away.

During my recent cancer hospitalization, the night before surgery, part of me was very scared about losing my life. However, after these years of Practice, I simultaneously was not scared at all because of knowing ALL OF THIS, that ALL OF THIS is just manifesting for a time as "I." So long as ALL OF THIS (call it "Buddha," call it "Reality," call it "Dharmakaya" call it "the Universe," call it "God," call it "Bongo Bongo" or "Bingo Bango" or best, just know the Flowing Wholeness we sometimes misleadingly call "Emptiness," and don't worry much about a name at all) flows on and on, we flow on and on. (I sense in Zazen that it is more than merely "conservation of energy" and recycled atoms and a few lingering memories in others or fingerprints left on the world, but a more radical inter-indentity).

Please have a listen to the talk on the Sandokai, because it is the best description I can offer. As I say there, it is not so hard to describe ... but the trick is to really feel this, see this, know this. (Talk is from the 1:50 mark)




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGmzva9n-Fw

Dharma Talk Audio / Podcast Episode:
https://treeleaf.podbean.com/e/february-2018-zazenkai-talk-sandokai-the-identity-of-relative-and-absolute/

The Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta is a South Asian Theravadan sutta in which the Buddha says that he does not address many philosophical questions because his concern is simply eliminating the fear and friction of Dukkha ("suffering" in Buddhist meaning. The above is the Mahayana medicine for that same Dukkha, and is not considered "philosophical specualation" because it is more a realization, an experience, awakening).

Next, what is the part that Zen folks and other Mahayana Buddhists don't agree on? Primarily literal, mechanical systems and models of "rebirth." Some folks believe, some folks these days (like me) are skeptical of overly detailed descriptions of future heavens and hells and returning as snails or gods. I am skeptical to the point of disbelief, but I term myself "agnostic" because it is just not important to my Practice. Be a good person in this life as best one can, let future lives (if any) take care of themselves. If there are future lives or not, the pivot point is always to be good and gentle in this life anyway. I do not know if there are "heavens" and "hells" in a life to come, but I have seen people make hells for themselves and those around them in this life.

As well, as some folks have commented in this thread, we can all say that we are born and die in each moment, as life is constantly changing. We can also say, as a corollary to all of the above, that we are born again and again in each blade of grass, each breeze, each mountain and distant star, all "us" and we are them. There is a lovely Japanese song about this (here is the English version, but it is quite lovely too) ... I think that this is something that many Zennies can know too as ALL OF THIS ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwkX3y8IFpQ


"Sen no Kaze ni Natte" (千の風になって) is a single by Japanese singer Masafumi Akikawa. The lyrics are a Japanese translation of the poem, 'Do Not Stand at My Grave and Weep'. ... It was the best-selling single in Japan in 2007.

Don't stand at my grave and weep
I am not there, I do not sleep
I am the sunlight on the ripened grain
I am the gentle autumn rain

I am a thousand winds
I am a thousand winds that blow
I am the diamond glint on snow
I am a thousand winds that blow

Don't stand at my grave and cry
I am not there, I did not die
I am the swift rush of birds in flight
Soft stars that shine at night

I am a thousand winds
I am a thousand winds that blow
I am the diamond glint on snow
I am a thousand winds that blow

Don't stand at my grave and weep
I am not there, I do not sleep
I am the sunlight on the ripened grain
I am the gentle autumn rain

I am a thousand winds
I am a thousand winds that blow
I am the diamond glint on snow
I am a thousand winds that blow

I am the diamond glint on snow
I am a thousand winds that blow

The original poem:

Do not stand at my grave and weep.
I am not there; I do not sleep.
I am a thousand winds that blow.
I am the diamond glints on snow.
I am the sunlight on ripened grain.
I am the gentle autumn rain.
When you awaken in the morning’s hush
I am the swift uplifting rush
Of quiet birds in circled flight.
I am the soft stars that shine at night.
Do not stand at my grave and cry;
I am not there; I did not die.

The Shobogenzo Section, Shoji, that Brad discusses is short and excellent. It makes a couple of further points that are excellent. First, is the ALL OF THIS. However, it also notes that, even with ALL OF THIS, we are (from the other angle) born and die, lose the ones we love ... our hearts break. That is okay. When crying just cry. I sometimes like to speak of a Buddha who might shed a tear, yet smile all at once. (If you would like an old talk by me on Shoji, one here ... that will "kill" some time for you ... :) )

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?10197-October-6th-2012-OUR-MONTHLY-4-hour-ZAZENKAI%21&highlight=shoji+life+death

Dogen also advises in Shoji that, when living live like your life depends on it, when dying just die right to the death. In between, live gently.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[SoR]

Thank you for your teaching, Jundo. I will listen to the talks.

gassho1

-Sam

#SatToday

[Tenrai]

Thank you Jundo and others on this thread. I have lost 2 very special dogs this year and if I am honest, I have found it very hard. struggle to make sense of it all, the coming and going of life and death. My practice helps, but i have found myself wrecked at times too.
If I stop to try and rationalise it, understand it or be ok with it...... I often fail. So for me tears come and go, smiles and laughter come and go , I have given up trying to be ok.
I know sitting zazen stills my head and i feel more at peace.
For me it is all part of the experience of "living" , it comes and it goes.
Gassho
Richard
Sat Today

[Shinshi]

Thank you for that excellent teaching Jundo.

Gasslh, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Shinshou]

I think the heart of the discomfort isn't what happens after death, but rather is there consciousness after death. If there's no consciousness, then whatever comes can't be experienced, whether it's rotting, transmigration, or anything in between. If one believes that consciousness is a function of the brain, then brain death is literal death. If one believes consciousness is formed by some other organ/process/tool, then the question becomes more complex. I don't know which I believe, and guess I don't see it as that important, it'll happen whether I know it or not. But I will say this, each time I go to sleep, I have no perception. Every time I've passed out, I've had no perception. When I've been anesthetized, I've had no perception, so my anecdotal experience tells me that when the brain goes, so does consciousness.

Dan (Shinsho)
St Today

[Jundo]

I think the heart of the discomfort isn't what happens after death, but rather is there consciousness after death. If there's no consciousness, then whatever comes can't be experienced, whether it's rotting, transmigration, or anything in between. If one believes that consciousness is a function of the brain, then brain death is literal death. If one believes consciousness is formed by some other organ/process/tool, then the question becomes more complex. I don't know which I believe, and guess I don't see it as that important, it'll happen whether I know it or not. But I will say this, each time I go to sleep, I have no perception. Every time I've passed out, I've had no perception. When I've been anesthetized, I've had no perception, so my anecdotal experience tells me that when the brain goes, so does consciousness.

Dan (Shinsho)
St Today

Live a good and gentle life now. You are conscious now for sure.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Rich]

Enjoy your conscious awareness. THIS is more than you think.

Btw what were you before you were born?

SAT

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[Risho]

Now - I think that is a key point, but I forget this time and again. Often times I live as if I have a guaranteed future; if there's anything this practice teaches, it's to live your life like this is it because it is. Does that mean that we go willy nilly and live a life of hedonism, YOLO and all of that nonsense? I don't think so; it means we dig in, face things, take care of now; if we know better, do better. Make your bed, workout, eat properly (these are things I would focus on myself); priorities differ for each of us, but what doesn't is that this is a gift and we shouldn't waste it.

Gassho

Rish

[Shinshou]

I agree with what Brad said about the freaking out, that there's a way to freak out without acting on it. But I would hate for anyone to think that being sad about a loved one dying...or even our own certain death...is equivalent to freaking out. It's not. Just my view.

Dan (Shinsho)
Sat Today

[Shoki]

I do not fear death. 500 million years ago, before you were born did you sit around fearing birth and life? Me neither. I've heard people say; I would be afraid of death especially if there is no afterlife, no consciousness. That makes no sense to me. If you're not conscious then you wouldn't know anyway. Every single thing that ever lived is either dead or is going to die. So what are you going to do about it? Just live. I have a kind of "trust" in the universe. I guess it is human nature to think about it once in a while. But I see no sense in dwelling on it. As Bob Dylan sang: Where do you come from? Where do you go? Sorry that's nothing you would need to know.

Gassho LAH
Sat Today
James

[Jundo]

I have a kind of "trust" in the universe.

I just read a thesis (I can't link to it) which discussed two kinds of "faith" or "trust" in Zen.

One is ordinary "trust" like a small infant to its mother: We may not understand much about what is going on, or who these shapes are that keep putting food in our mouth, yet we trust and allow it to happen, go with the flow. Not like we have much choice in the matter, but enjoy the ride.

But the other "faith" or "trust" in Zazen is really interesting, because it completely rewrites the usual sentence "I trust it" to remove the "I" and remove the object "it" and just leave the "trust" right through subject and object. That is cool.

It is appropriate to this topic of live and death, because what is "death" when we also remove the "I" and "it"? :buddha:

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Doshin]

gassho2

Doshin
Stlah

[Risho]

how to remove the “I”? that is the trick :)

thank you Jundo

time to sit

gassho

rish

[Washin]

But the other "faith" or "trust" in Zazen is really interesting, because it completely rewrites the usual sentence "I trust it" to remove the "I" and remove the object "it" and just leave the "trust" right through subject and object. That is cool.
gassho2

[Getchi]

Live a good and gentle life now. You are conscious now for sure.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH


Gas ho, thank you.

These last few years I have had to accept death after death after death. Many friends and dear family have perished, and every platitude has tung hollow.

Only now, after enough "time has passed" have I realized; this was always going to be. I too, soon enough, shall pass.

I'm reminded repititiously that wood is the time of wood, ash the time of ash. I get that.

Without tree leaf, I would have forgotten I am still wood.
I can not make the words to be clearer, but I pray and offer much Metta to Jizo, kuanying, and all brings who have suffered loss.


Gassho,
Geoff.

SatToday
LaH

An extra round of Metta too.


Thank you.