Shook up in zazen!

[Jay_cg14]

Hi sangha!

Sitting today I had some intense negative feelings and energy come up in me. It's still here to be honest! Just some guidance and pointers would be greatly appreciated?..
I've just been sitting with it and observing it whilst both sitting and in my daily activities also as it's still been there throughout the afternoon. I've been trying to remember the spacious sky in the background and not getting carried away by these intense clouds. I know allsorts can arise in zazen past conflicts and past pain ect so i kind of expected this along the way but nice to get support i'm sure you'll all agree!

Gassho, Jay 🙏

[Jay_cg14]

Apologies I've put this in the wrong section.

[Mp]

I've just been sitting with it and observing it whilst both sitting and in my daily activities also as it's still been there throughout the afternoon.

Hello Jay,

Well, you answered your own question ... when these states arise, allow them to arise and just be. No need to push them away or grasp onto them. Emotions are like clouds in the sky, them come, they go. Sometimes they are big, sometimes they are small. Sometimes they are dark filled with a storm, sometimes white and fluffy. Either way, allow the cloud to be the cloud (the thoughts/feelings be just that) and allow them to just float on by ... if they become too much throughout your day, then maybe take a little time to sit and focus on your breathe and allow them to settle.

Remember that a lot of "stuff" we experience right now is not right now, but that of the past or the future. The "Mind Theatre" is whats at play ... sitting with what is allows is to see through the act being performed on the stage of our mind and experience life just as it is.

Hope this helps. =)

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

[Mp]

Apologies I've put this in the wrong section.

No worries, Jundo will move the thread to the right spot and we can continue the chat there. :encouragement:

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

[Jay_cg14]

Thankyou Shingen ��

[Zenmei]

You're definitely not alone.

Sometimes you can remember the spacious sky while fully embracing the experience of these emotions. Sometimes remembering the spacious sky is a way of distancing yourself from the experience. It is important not to get carried away in the thoughts that might surround the feelings. In my experience, those tend to be some of the most seductive and destructive thoughts. Sitting helps me to separate the thoughts from the emotions so I can accept the feelings without believing the negative thoughts that tend to come along for the ride.

Gassho, Zenmei (sat)

[Jundo]

Hi Jay ...

A good time to restate my usual cautions about infrequent ... Makyo! ... gassho1

In Zen Practice, we have to be careful of certain games the mind will play during Zazen once in awhile ... including unusual visual and auditory sensations, brief periods of paranoia or panic, memories arising from deep down in our subconscious. We are not used to the stillness and quiet of Zazen, and it lets certain memories, emotions, fears and like psychological states rise to the surface ... or allows some things (spots in our eyes that are always there even though not usually noticed, background sounds) to be noticed that are usually blocked out by all the noise and busyness in our heads, senses and around us.

If it is just once in awhile ... and if you are aware of this, and it was not too overwhelming ... then I do not think it cause for worry. If it becomes too overwhelming, break off that sitting and take a little time off until you cool down. If it becomes a regular event, or too profound, that may be a sign of something else that needs to be approached. But, once in awhile ... I would not be concerned.

We tend to call such things "Makyo", defined as follows (by Daido Loori Roshi). He speaks of hallucinatory like experiences ...


In Zen, hallucinations are called makyo. It is not unusual for practitioners sitting in meditation for long periods of time to experience makyo. Some people feel like they are levitating, others see visions of the Buddha bathed in light, some hear sounds or voices. This in itself is not a problem. The problem arises when we confuse these experiences with enlightenment. When students come to me in dokusan to give me elaborate description of their makyo, a common response from me could be something like, “Oh, don’t worry about it—it will go away. Maybe you’re not sitting straight.” In other words, don’t attach to it. But if a dream is real, why isn’t makyo real? Are dreams, makyo, enlightenment and delusion the same, or are they different?

We learn from all these experience ... we learn how the mind is like a theatre, and creates our experience of the life-world.

As Daido notes, the mind will play during Zazen once in awhile ... including unusual visual and auditory sensations, brief periods of paranoia or panic, memories arising from deep down in our subconscious. Once, during a Sesshin, I became irate inside because I felt the monk at Sojiji sitting next to me was "encroaching on my space". I once had a little Buddha pop out of the wall and chat with me for several minutes (I pinched myself ... he stayed!), and felt like I was floating in the air. It is common during Sesshin, because of the strains involved, the "sensory deprivation", to experience such things as emotional swings, hearing becoming so sharp you can be disturbed by an ant walking across the room, strange bodily sensations such as feelings of floating or being giant sized, and paranoia.

Do not drive them away or forcefully push them out ... neither grab them, cling to them or stir them up. If finding oneself doing any of that, simply open the hand of thought and let them go.

If it happens once in awhile, it is not a particular concern ... just an interesting moment. Let it be until it passes, break off Zazen that day if it becomes too overwhelming. If it happens very often, we may need to see what you are doing that may be causing such experiences. It may even be psychological issues coming up (I once remembered an ugly incident from my childhood that I had apparently otherwise completely forgotten), and if serious enough, you might even seek outside counseling.

Can you better describe exactly what kind of feeling? For example, anger? fear? resentments?

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Shinshou]

Hi Jay ...

A good time to restate my usual cautions about infrequent ... Makyo! ... gassho1

In Zen Practice, we have to be careful of certain games the mind will play during Zazen once in awhile ... including unusual visual and auditory sensations, brief periods of paranoia or panic, memories arising from deep down in our subconscious. We are not used to the stillness and quiet of Zazen, and it lets certain memories, emotions, fears and like psychological states rise to the surface ... or allows some things (spots in our eyes that are always there even though not usually noticed, background sounds) to be noticed that are usually blocked out by all the noise and busyness in our heads, senses and around us.

If it is just once in awhile ... and if you are aware of this, and it was not too overwhelming ... then I do not think it cause for worry. If it becomes too overwhelming, break off that sitting and take a little time off until you cool down. If it becomes a regular event, or too profound, that may be a sign of something else that needs to be approached. But, once in awhile ... I would not be concerned.

We tend to call such things "Makyo", defined as follows (by Daido Loori Roshi). He speaks of hallucinatory like experiences ...



We learn from all these experience ... we learn how the mind is like a theatre, and creates our experience of the life-world.



Do not drive them away or forcefully push them out ... neither grab them, cling to them or stir them up. If finding oneself doing any of that, simply open the hand of thought and let them go.


Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

I just posted about this yesterday. When I started sitting, my mind really threw infantile fits to try to maintain its ability to create attachment. What I found most helpful was to create a mental reminder....for instance, if a disturbing image or thought came up repeatedly, I would mentally take note if it and resolve to address it later, then get back to experiencing what was in front of me. Sometimes it went away, sometimes it persisted, but my mind seemed satisfied enough that it wasn't disturbing any more. Then later, I would revisit it and think, "Gee, where did THAT come from?!?" But the zafu is not the place for that type of work, at least not for me.

Dan
Sat Today

[Jundo]

I just posted about this yesterday. When I started sitting, my mind really threw infantile fits to try to maintain its ability to create attachment. What I found most helpful was to create a mental reminder....for instance, if a disturbing image or thought came up repeatedly, I would mentally take note if it and resolve to address it later, then get back to experiencing what was in front of me. Sometimes it went away, sometimes it persisted, but my mind seemed satisfied enough that it wasn't disturbing any more. Then later, I would revisit it and think, "Gee, where did THAT come from?!?" But the zafu is not the place for that type of work, at least not for me.

Dan
Sat Today

Hi Dan,

Yes, sometimes in Zazen an old memory, a strange emotion or the like will come up for me too. I also note it and, usually, do not address it during Zazen, promising momentarily to come back to it after. I note it and sometimes come back to it after Zazen when, as you say, sometimes it remains interesting to address and sometimes proves just an empty "what was that all about?"

However, sometimes in Zazen, a thought, insight or emotion comes up ... and I just let it come up and be present without particularly wallowing in it, stirring it up or engaging in its intellectual games. Then, sometimes, a Light can shine through the thought or emotion which makes it transparent or clear, or just vanish as an issue.

For example, suppose in Zazen an interesting and angry thought about U.S. politics comes up (has happened a few times in recent months :)). Usually, I will just let it pass and return to Just Sitting. However, sometimes it might hang around, and I just let it be. I do not delve into it, wallow in it, follow its chains of tangled reactions and emotions. I just let it be present, a kind of Koan. A kind of light and clarity will often come to illuminate the problem in such case, and it becomes less of a problem, clearer in its real nature, or the thought might even fully drop away. This is what Dogen referred to as "Thinking-Non-Thinking", in my opinion. Just don't grab on and intellectually or emotionally wrestle the thought. (As I recently said to a friend who found that he could not get Donald Trump out of his head during some recent Zazen sittings, "Best to let Donald Trump drift from mind during Zazen. However, if you cannot, just let Donald Trump sit there as an object during your Zazen. Let Trump just be Trump. A light and clarity may shine through and as the complexity of emotions about Donald. Trump will then be Trump, yet not Trump at once. "

A bit hard to explain until one realizes that the Light of Zazen shines through the greatest darkness, the Silence of Zazen is heard as both ordinary worldly quiet or the loudest noise.

This is the art of Thinking Non Thinking in Shikantaza Zazen.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Suuko]

Greetings,

I recall a scene from the little Buddha where Sakyamuni smiles when Mara plays his games. The Mind reflects what we feed in. It's all a big illusion.

Gassho,
Geerish.

[Rakurei]

Such lovely responses.
They will come, they will go.
Just do not serve them tea.

[Jay_cg14]

Hi all! Sorry for the late response!
Awesome feedback i'm very greatful. The feeling I experience is a kind of sullen despair and a heavy depression all rolled into one, sometimes brings up feelings of hopelessness aswell. It comes up every now and then cam stick around for maybe a few days at the worst, sometimes a few hours and then it goes for days or weeks again. I feel I can be the 'sky' for the clouds of experience in my zazen more and more even around my busy mind or on an irritable day. However this is the only time that I feel the sky becomes obscured and it's down right rough if I'm honest.

Gassho, Jay.

SatToday

[Jundo]

Hi all! Sorry for the late response!
Awesome feedback i'm very greatful. The feeling I experience is a kind of sullen despair and a heavy depression all rolled into one, sometimes brings up feelings of hopelessness aswell. It comes up every now and then cam stick around for maybe a few days at the worst, sometimes a few hours and then it goes for days or weeks again. I feel I can be the 'sky' for the clouds of experience in my zazen more and more even around my busy mind or on an irritable day. However this is the only time that I feel the sky becomes obscured and it's down right rough if I'm honest.

Gassho, Jay.

SatToday

Hi Jay,

I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist by any means, although I do own a couch. :cool:

I did suffer from depression for many years about 30 years ago, and I still get "blue" days as all humans do (sometimes lack of sleep, sad news, etc.).

I would say that, if it is just a passing, temporary emotion, just let it pass.

If it is persisting, it seems like something more serious as an issue in your mental health is coming up, and you should speak to a mental health professional and your physician about why you are experiencing some depression.

The following is my typical response to someone sitting Zazen together with some other issues requiring outside counseling or medication (some folks here will have read it many time) ...

First and foremost, follow expert advice by true medical and psychological specialists on depression etc., and do what they advice first and foremost.

Our emphasis here is on Shikantaza ... which may be said to be "being one" with what ails one, although not necessarily a cure for what ails one. HOWEVER, that "being one" with life ... can relieve much suffering in life. It is a strange thing ... we do not sit Shikantaza to be "better" or to make life "other than as it is" ...

... Yet, in the very stillness of letting life be "as is it" and embracing all of life ... and in dropping the hard borders and divisions between our "self" and the world ... this practice does thereby leave almost all people better ... and often does work an effective cure (or is one helpful part of the cure) ... from depression, stress, addiction, compulsive disorders, eating disorders, anger issues, self loathing ... you name it. How? Just by letting us be more at ease with life and peaceful in heart.

We do emphasize mindfulness of our thoughts and emotions ... but not as a form of meditation. Your realization that, in fact, your thoughts are obsessive is a first step in one of the most fundamental Teachings of Buddhism, for 2500 years and in all schools ... OUR THOUGHTS ARE JUST THOUGHTS! One can practice being aware of the different thoughts that come into mind. However, our Zazen is the radical non-doing of Shikantaza, and the "mind theatre" and tricks and games of the human mind is something that naturally we also become better able to recognize and avoid from sitting. (For example, 30 years ago I used to say "I feel like crap, therefore life is crap and my thoughts are real." Now I might say, "Today I am temporarily experiencing the passing mind theatre of crappy thoughts and feelinigs, one of a great variety of human thoughts and judgments that does not mean at all that the world is only so, the next moment the thoughts will likely change and so will my experience of the world." etc. I no longer am so prone to by into what the thoughts are selling, and to be their puppet. )

... I suspect that Shikantaza ... in its quietness, in the total stillness and acceptance ... would be something helpful with what you describe ...

But Zazen is -NOT- a cure for many things ... it will not fix a bad tooth (just allow you to be present with the toothache ... you had better see a dentist, not a Zen teacher), cure cancer (although it may have some healthful effects and make one more attune to the process of chemotherapy and/or dying), etc. Zen practice will not cure your acne on your face, or fix your flat tire. All it will do is let one "be at one, and whole" ... TRULY ONE ... with one's pimples and punctured wheel, accepting and embracing of each, WHOLLY WHOLE with/as each one. There are many psychological problems or psycho/medical problems such as alcoholism that may require other therapies, although Zen can be part of a 12-Step program or such (a few Zen teachers in America with a drinking problem had to seek outside help). My feeling is that some things are probably best handled by medical, psychological or psychiatric treatment, not Zen teachers.

My feeling is that receiving outside treatment, medication AND "just sitting" can all work together.

Let us know what happens.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

PS - We are all human, and I think that sometimes even Dogen and the Buddha himself got up on the wrong side of the bed, overworked and torn, felt disappointment or grief in the face of sad news or loss (why do we like to say that they were totally beyond all that, robbing them of some natural humanity? There is a famous Sutta in which the Buddha fails in preventing a war which results in the death of many in his birth family. If he did not feel sad at such a time, them there was something wrong with him.) There is a difference between seeing through emotions and not wallowing and being their prisoner, letting them take over to extremes ... and feeling simple, natural human emotions as we are wired in the brain and as is appropriate to life situations. Sometimes, we all wake up blue. Sometimes life is hard. No big deal. In Mahayana Buddhism, we transcend and see through Samsara (this sometimes beautiful and sometimes ugly daily world). However, we are still human beings living in it ... free and seeing through the world, yet still in it and these human bodies.

[Jay_cg14]

Hi Jundo!

I know that all spiritual teachers talk about past pain ect that comes up to the light (of zazen) for dissolution like moths to a flame so I kind of expect this. It's kind of like the 'dark knight of the soul' ... I know that as you say in some cases it may need further help from a psychoanalysyst for example but I want to see if my zazen can become my main embrace for all this. (Counselling is expensive and I wouldn't ever want to take medication either) Although if i feel the need to go to therapy i will certainly give it a try if possible. I know that some negative feelings if deep can take a long time to pass especially if they are deeply entrenched in the system. I appreciate all your help and advice I've never received such great explanations and help on this side of spirituality that many shy away from but in any case is absolutely a real part of it. I also remember the zen teacher adyashanti talk about 'often in spirituality, before things feel ok they often feel really really REALLY not ok!!'

Gassho, Jay. ��

[Jay_cg14]

As I say it isn't there all the time it comes up periodically for a few hours or couple of days every few weeks maybe sometimes less sometimes more. It's not something that's ever present.

Gassho