Benefits of a Sangha

[Tairin]

Hi all,

Many of us here (including me) profess to being natural introverts. As introverts you likely feel more comfortable on your own or with a few very close and trusted friends rather than in larger groups with people you don't know well.

If you are like me you may have questioned whether you really need a Sangha in order to practice Zen, after all the core of the practice is sitting quietly in Zazen, something that you can do alone.

I would like to add that I have benefited immeasurably from TreeLeaf and the discussions here.

Domyo Burk has posted 3 new blog entries on her site about the Importance of the Sangha and reading them really crystallized in my mind a lot of the great things that are happening here such as Jundo's LAH initiative, the book reading "Living by Vows", the Metta thread, the picture sharing thread, and just about every thing else since the discussion here ultimately leads to a lesson that deepens (at least my) understanding.

If you are interested you can find her entries here and I hope the resonant with this group:

http://brightwayzen.org/the-importance-of-sangha-the-buddhist-community-part-1/
http://brightwayzen.org/learn-from-sangha-part-2/
http://brightwayzen.org/importance-of-sangha-part-3/
http://brightwayzen.org/sangha-part-4-sangha-relationships/
http://brightwayzen.org/sangha-part-5-sangha-as-service/


Gassho
Warren
Sat today

[Jundo]

Thank you Warren.

Actually, solo Practice has been disfavored compared to the group since the Buddha's time and throughout the history of Chan/Zen Buddhism (all pretty much monastics living in groups). The group keeps one focused, supports one like a family. Solo practice was considered apt to wander off in bad directions.

I wonder where the image came of Buddhism and Zen as one man band Practice?

Even the fellows who build the grass huts in the mountains to get away from civilization usually did not stay up there forever, or did so only at a certain later time in their life.

One takes Refuge in Buddha, Dharma, Sangha (the Community)

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Jishin]

Hi Warren,

Sangha means community. Like it or not, you are always part of a sangha. Your nuclear family is your sangha. Work, other buddhists and and sentient beings are sangha. Solitary monks were never alone. They communed with nature. They were always part of a sangha. It's just a matter of looking around and noticing your sangha. With such a large sangha, how can anyone practice alone?

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jakuden]

Thank you for the links Warren! I am looking forward to reading these!
I agree, many of us here seem to be introverts, and although we are naturally inclined toward kindness and helping, being introverted makes us more susceptible to burnout. We seem to need a bit more prodding to get us to stretch into group commitments, which are scary but so vital to bodhisattva practice. From the day I joined Treeleaf I have never lacked reminders of where I need to polish the mirror (even if no dust gathers[emoji846]) Now I could never go back to solitary practice, for as Jishin says, my eyes have been opened and the whole world is Sangha.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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[Jakuden]

PS now I've read the articles, and it's kind of mind blowing to me how exactly they capture the experience of Sangha practice in a nutshell!! It also provided me with a little joy in the statement that if someone reacts negatively to my social awkwardness, then that is their practice [emoji23] Love the thought that I could help someone's practice through my own social ineptitude.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH (maybe even by forcing all the parents coming and going to my daughter's birthday to deal with my socially awkward self, lol!!)


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[tlsk]

Thanks for sharing, Warren!

I, too, have struggled with the necessity of Sangha. In fact, until very recently--like yesterday--given my location, I had more or less resigned myself to the fact that I would sit zazen without a Sangha forever. But, I'm glad I decided to give Treeleaf a shot. I look forward to practicing with you all.

Gassho,

Taylor
SatToday

[Joyo]

Hello Warren, thank you for sharing your thoughts. (I know as a fellow introvert how daunting that can be)

I appreciate this sangha and the way we support each other here. I regularly sit with Shingen's online sitting group during the week, which has helped me tremendously to stay faithful to my practice. And yes, the book club, our weekly zazenkais, all the encouragement offered from the kind folks here.

Also, others are right. The whole world is our sangha. I live in a house of all men----a husband and two very loud, very non-introverted boys that give me plenty of opportunities to practice lol!!

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

[Mp]

Hello Warren,

I too am an introvert, like many of us here. But the beauty of this practice, the beauty of a Sangha is that it puts down these descriptors such as introvert/extrovert. It gives us a safe place where we can just be our true authentic selves.

Yes there are times when it is good to practice alone, to have that self-motivation to sit when we don't want to sit. To engage in that difficult situation, when we don't want to engage. But it is also important that we sit and practice with a group as a whole ... so that we can come together, support one another, so that we don't always have to be self-motivated to sit, or engage into those difficult situations.

One of the key principles in our practices as well is to realize the middle way, so that we may drop away those conditions of right/wrong, good/bad, introvert/extrovert. =)

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

[Hoko]

Hey Warren,

Being part of a group of like minded people who share an interest in addressing the suffering inherent in the world is a huge blessing and benefits both the individual and the "outside world". I have learned so much from my interactions with the Treeleaf sangha and seen my own understanding change and evolve over time that I can only imagine how much I would have missed without it. During the last Ango I partnered up with Sekishi and it was so wonderful to be able to chat and discuss our practice and share our experiences. I still text him now and then just to say hello. These interactions afford us endless opportunities to blossom and grow and reinforce our practice.

But Jishin is right: the sangha goes beyond other Zen adherents and penetrates through all social strata. The relationships you have with your family, your co-workers and even folks you come into casual contact with are all part of the sangha. The lady who's screaming at the checkout girl has something to teach about reactivity and clinging. The customer who looks like they're having a bad day represents an opportunity to practice compassion. Heck, walking into the gym the other day I stopped to hold the door open for the lady behind me and smiled at her. She's part of the sangha too. Whether I consider myself an introvert or an extrovert doesn't figure into it. Just like Shingen said, our practice teaches us to drop these labels. "All life is our temple". Whether we're medicant monks or laypersons, introverts, extroverts, sages, fools, experts or beginners we are all monks, laypersons, sages, fools, experts and beginners.

Zazen is so important but so is getting up off the zafu. The Sangha, the Buddha and the Dharma are NOT separate. And I learned that HERE.

Much thanks and Metta to all.
Gassho,
Hōkō
#SatToday
LAH

[Tairin]

Hi all

After reading the comments I see I should have phrased my original post differently. I didn't intend for this to be a thread on introverted vs extroverted. Also thanks to Treeleaf I do better understand the purpose of the Sangha. I didn't feel comfortable at the local brick & mortar Zen Centre (which was definitely more my failing than theirs) but here at Treeleaf I have learned an appreciation for the importance of the Sangha. Also I completely agree that the whole world is my Sangha.

My real intent was to highlight three blog entries on the Importance of the Sangha that I linked to in my original post.

It is my fault for muddling my original message but thank you all for your comments. They are appreciated. gassho2

Gassho
Warren
Sat today & LAH

[Jundo]

Whether it was intended or not ... I am a shy introvert at heart too, as the folks I will meet in San Francisco and along the way will see too. :)

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Kyonin]

Hi Warren,

Sangha is a very important part of our practice. In my point of view (which may not be smart), solo practice tends to get too self centered in the way that one slowly starts to listen to self conclusions and reasoning. With a sangha, even if you don't talk as much, you can see/hear/read other's points of view which enrich your own understanding.

Thank you for the links :)

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[tlsk]

Hey Warren,

I read the blog posts, and I found them extremely insightful, and well worth the time spent. I'll definitely be returning to her site. Thanks for posting them.

Gassho,

Taylor
SatToday



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[Enjaku]

Thanks Warren,

This thread made me smile gassho1

Gassho,
Enjaku
Sat LAH

[clyde]

This thread reminded me of a short essay I wrote years ago to commemorate the 20th Anniversary of my local sangha (Sacramento Buddhist Meditation Group).


On the Importance of Sangha


A few months ago, during the lunch break at an all-day (Zen) sit, last year’s head student (Shuso) came up to me and said, “Sangha is important.” And then we spoke a bit.

Now I could try to explain the causes and conditions that brought last year’s head student to come up to me and say, “Sangha is important.” And those would be interesting stories to share. But I’m not going to try to explain. He did and that’s enough.

Because he’s right: sangha is important.

I studied the Dharma for many years and sat in mediation and thought of myself as a Buddhist. And even though I had no face-to-face teacher and no sangha, I took the Three Refuges – in my heart/mind.

But how did I take refuge? I took refuge in the Buddha as an awakened teacher. I took refuge in the Dharma as the teachings leading to awakening. But how did I take refuge in the sangha, if I had no sangha?

Well, I thought of all the Buddhists teachers who had lived in the past and whose teachings I studied, and I thought “We are a sangha.” And that is true. I thought of the online Buddhist forums where I participated and thought “We are a sangha.” And that is true. And I thought of all the human beings living today and thought “We are a sangha.” And that is true too.

But I believe that when the Buddha spoke of the sangha as a refuge he meant an actual community of living human beings in intimate contact, breath-to-breath, each devoted to the Path.

It was shortly after the Buddha’s awakening that he formed the first Buddhist sangha and it seems he remained with his sangha for the rest of his life. And while the Buddha spoke of “being a lamp unto ourselves”, he also spoke of finding refuge in the sangha.

I don’t know what refuge the Buddha found in the sangha, but this is my experience.

A few years ago I began attending the Sunday night sit with SBMG. After a time I realized that I had joined the sangha. I made the effort to introduce myself to a few sangha members and to say “Hello” each week. In time I got to know a bit about them, and I got to share a bit about me. In time we shared a bit about how our practice and understanding of the Dharma affects our lives and our views. Mindfully listening to a Dharma friend share their experiences changed me, opened my heart. Earnestly speaking about my experiences changed me, helped me to see more clearly. And seeing how my Dharma friends respond to me changed me, in unanticipated ways. In all these ways I believe the sangha and my direct relationship with the sangha supports my efforts to realize the Dharma and I am better for it.

So I’m sharing my experience with you: sangha is important.

[tlsk]

This thread reminded me of a short essay I wrote years ago to commemorate the 20th Anniversary of my local sangha (Sacramento Buddhist Meditation Group).


On the Importance of Sangha


A few months ago, during the lunch break at an all-day (Zen) sit, last year’s head student (Shuso) came up to me and said, “Sangha is important.” And then we spoke a bit.

Now I could try to explain the causes and conditions that brought last year’s head student to come up to me and say, “Sangha is important.” And those would be interesting stories to share. But I’m not going to try to explain. He did and that’s enough.

Because he’s right: sangha is important.

I studied the Dharma for many years and sat in mediation and thought of myself as a Buddhist. And even though I had no face-to-face teacher and no sangha, I took the Three Refuges – in my heart/mind.

But how did I take refuge? I took refuge in the Buddha as an awakened teacher. I took refuge in the Dharma as the teachings leading to awakening. But how did I take refuge in the sangha, if I had no sangha?

Well, I thought of all the Buddhists teachers who had lived in the past and whose teachings I studied, and I thought “We are a sangha.” And that is true. I thought of the online Buddhist forums where I participated and thought “We are a sangha.” And that is true. And I thought of all the human beings living today and thought “We are a sangha.” And that is true too.

But I believe that when the Buddha spoke of the sangha as a refuge he meant an actual community of living human beings in intimate contact, breath-to-breath, each devoted to the Path.

It was shortly after the Buddha’s awakening that he formed the first Buddhist sangha and it seems he remained with his sangha for the rest of his life. And while the Buddha spoke of “being a lamp unto ourselves”, he also spoke of finding refuge in the sangha.

I don’t know what refuge the Buddha found in the sangha, but this is my experience.

A few years ago I began attending the Sunday night sit with SBMG. After a time I realized that I had joined the sangha. I made the effort to introduce myself to a few sangha members and to say “Hello” each week. In time I got to know a bit about them, and I got to share a bit about me. In time we shared a bit about how our practice and understanding of the Dharma affects our lives and our views. Mindfully listening to a Dharma friend share their experiences changed me, opened my heart. Earnestly speaking about my experiences changed me, helped me to see more clearly. And seeing how my Dharma friends respond to me changed me, in unanticipated ways. In all these ways I believe the sangha and my direct relationship with the sangha supports my efforts to realize the Dharma and I am better for it.

So I’m sharing my experience with you: sangha is important.

Beautiful, Clyde. Thank you for sharing this.

Gassho,
Taylor
SatToday/LAH


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[Mp]

Hey folks,

I listened to this podcast today by Domyo Burk on Sangha, very nice talk. =)

http://zenstudiespodcast.com/sangha/

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

[Jundo]

This thread reminded me of a short essay I wrote years ago to commemorate the 20th Anniversary of my local sangha (Sacramento Buddhist Meditation Group).


On the Importance of Sangha


A few months ago, during the lunch break at an all-day (Zen) sit, last year’s head student (Shuso) came up to me and said, “Sangha is important.” And then we spoke a bit.

Now I could try to explain the causes and conditions that brought last year’s head student to come up to me and say, “Sangha is important.” And those would be interesting stories to share. But I’m not going to try to explain. He did and that’s enough.

Because he’s right: sangha is important.

I studied the Dharma for many years and sat in mediation and thought of myself as a Buddhist. And even though I had no face-to-face teacher and no sangha, I took the Three Refuges – in my heart/mind.

But how did I take refuge? I took refuge in the Buddha as an awakened teacher. I took refuge in the Dharma as the teachings leading to awakening. But how did I take refuge in the sangha, if I had no sangha?

Well, I thought of all the Buddhists teachers who had lived in the past and whose teachings I studied, and I thought “We are a sangha.” And that is true. I thought of the online Buddhist forums where I participated and thought “We are a sangha.” And that is true. And I thought of all the human beings living today and thought “We are a sangha.” And that is true too.

But I believe that when the Buddha spoke of the sangha as a refuge he meant an actual community of living human beings in intimate contact, breath-to-breath, each devoted to the Path.

It was shortly after the Buddha’s awakening that he formed the first Buddhist sangha and it seems he remained with his sangha for the rest of his life. And while the Buddha spoke of “being a lamp unto ourselves”, he also spoke of finding refuge in the sangha.

I don’t know what refuge the Buddha found in the sangha, but this is my experience.

A few years ago I began attending the Sunday night sit with SBMG. After a time I realized that I had joined the sangha. I made the effort to introduce myself to a few sangha members and to say “Hello” each week. In time I got to know a bit about them, and I got to share a bit about me. In time we shared a bit about how our practice and understanding of the Dharma affects our lives and our views. Mindfully listening to a Dharma friend share their experiences changed me, opened my heart. Earnestly speaking about my experiences changed me, helped me to see more clearly. And seeing how my Dharma friends respond to me changed me, in unanticipated ways. In all these ways I believe the sangha and my direct relationship with the sangha supports my efforts to realize the Dharma and I am better for it.

So I’m sharing my experience with you: sangha is important.

And I will take a few minutes to re-introduce Clyde, who is an old face around here, an old friend who drops in from time to time, and founder of the Do No Harm Movement ...

http://www.donoharm.us/

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Shokai]

Thanks for for muddling your original message Warren, by doing so you've brought out some very valid inputs; Sangha is important and it doesn't just include those who think they belong [monk]

gassho,

sat/LAH

[Ugrok]

Hello !

I don't really know why, but i always have trouble with being in a sangha or any group. Still, in zen, wherever i go, be it online or offline, i always find kind people. I don't post much here, but i read a lot, and i must say that every time i came up with a question about practice, i always received very good and helping answers.

So i guess this is what a sangha is for me, and thank you for this.

Gassho,

Uggy
Sat Today, LAH

[Michael Joseph]

Hello all,

It's difficult for me to "take refuge in the sangha," because it's difficult for me to admit that I'm dependent on others for my own well-being. It's an admission of my own incompleteness. Until recently, I was no open to this difficulty within myself, but through practice, reading, and spending time with all of you (Buddha, Dharma, sangha), I have come to the realization that my incompleteness is something to accept and embrace. In incompleteness, the possibilities of authentic action and understanding are endless; whereas, for one who is "complete," there is no action possible, no understanding possible because everyone/thing else is an obstacle to one's own "perfect" self-containment. I think the sangha allows for the realization that, although its not always easy to admit that you need others, without admitting that need, it's impossible to see the needs of others. In short, I need you all, and I thank you for that.

Gassho,

Michael
Sat today

[Mp]

Hello all,

It's difficult for me to "take refuge in the sangha," because it's difficult for me to admit that I'm dependent on others for my own well-being. It's an admission of my own incompleteness. Until recently, I was no open to this difficulty within myself, but through practice, reading, and spending time with all of you (Buddha, Dharma, sangha), I have come to the realization that my incompleteness is something to accept and embrace. In incompleteness, the possibilities of authentic action and understanding are endless; whereas, for one who is "complete," there is no action possible, no understanding possible because everyone/thing else is an obstacle to one's own "perfect" self-containment. I think the sangha allows for the realization that, although its not always easy to admit that you need others, without admitting that need, it's impossible to see the needs of others. In short, I need you all, and I thank you for that.

Gassho,

Michael
Sat today

Hello Michael,

If I may ... you are not "incomplete", but rather whole and complete, it is our minds that tell us such things. Yes there maybe some thing that we need to change or work on, but that doesn't make us incomplete. We all have quirks about us, but we also have wonderful gifts and too .. each of us are whole and complete just as we are. =)

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

[Michael Joseph]

Hey Shingen,

You certainly may. :) This might be an issue of the words I'm choosing. When I say "incomplete," I don't mean I'm lacking or not whole. Rather, my wholeness is predicated on others: plants, animals, rain, you, etc. You'll have to forgive my imprecision: I'm just now trying to speak about such things from my heart instead of using book learnin'. Thank you for for your kind words about all of us. I needed that.

Gassho,

Michael
Sat today

[Mp]

Hey Shingen,

You certainly may. :) This might be an issue of the words I'm choosing. When I say "incomplete," I don't mean I'm lacking or not whole. Rather, my wholeness is predicated on others: plants, animals, rain, you, etc. You'll have to forgive my imprecision: I'm just now trying to speak about such things from my heart instead of using book learnin'. Thank you for for your kind words about all of us. I needed that.

Gassho,

Michael
Sat today
Hey Michael,

I hear yah and understand what you are saying. I too struggle at times accepting help from others, as I don't want to be a burden. But yet when I look at where those thoughts or feelings are coming from, I see they are not from the moment or experience that I am facing at that moment. The beauty of a Sangha is they allow me to work through those thoughts, to be whole/complete/authentic and present with what actually is.

So it really isn't about needing or not needing, be needed or not being needed. But rather being whole to the experience just as it is and not what I think it is or what is should be.

Make sense? Clear as mud? Shinning bright on a cloudy day? =).

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

[Zenmei]

Hey Shingen,

You certainly may. :) This might be an issue of the words I'm choosing. When I say "incomplete," I don't mean I'm lacking or not whole. Rather, my wholeness is predicated on others: plants, animals, rain, you, etc. You'll have to forgive my imprecision: I'm just now trying to speak about such things from my heart instead of using book learnin'. Thank you for for your kind words about all of us. I needed that.

Gassho,

Michael
Sat today

I wrote a whole response I didn't post because of that. I think we get so used to telling people they're not broken that when we hear "incomplete" or "not good enough" we jump right into "you're perfect the way you are".
But then I realized that's not what you meant. I wish there were more positive terms for that "incompleteness" or "emptiness". "Interdependence" is accurate, but seems a little clinical to me.
The other part you were talking about is how if we think we're already complete, there's no room for anything new. Roshi Bernie Glassman talks about "not-knowing" (http://zenpeacemakers.org/zpo-rule). He didn't invent it, but I think he expressed it well. Our first step always has to be dropping the idea that we know everything, that we're "complete". Once we stop pretending to have all the answers, we're free to see clearly what's really going on. Then we can act wisely. But if we're still clinging to the idea that we know things, our actions will be based around protecting our beliefs, not helping anybody.

Gassho, Zenmei
#sat

[Jakuden]

Thanks Clyde, and I love the "Do No Harm" concept. It's so simple yet could change the world.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[gilles]

support your local sangha

Peace
Gilles

[Kaishin]

Hello !

I don't really know why, but i always have trouble with being in a sangha or any group.

Me too, Uggy! I've never been much of a group person, either, at least not in "meatspace." I think many here may be like that as well.

[Leo]

This is an important topic. I have been so caught up in my life and am not a social person. I have a fear of showing vulnerability or weakness. I need to stick my head out of my shell a bit more.

I sat today,
Leo

[Jakuden]

Sometimes, at least in my case, it's just a matter of being unskillful. Treeleaf allows me the space to thoughtfully compose my interactions with others, where in person, I tend to communicate poorly in social situations. (I think ADHD is a big part of it--I miss what people say and miss body language cues, trip over words, say idiotic things that come into my head because the brain filter is slow.) This Sangha is perfect for those of us with social anxiety.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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[Mp]

Sometimes, at least in my case, it's just a matter of being unskillful. Treeleaf allows me the space to thoughtfully compose my interactions with others, where in person, I tend to communicate poorly in social situations. (I think ADHD is a big part of it--I miss what people say and miss body language cues, trip over words, say idiotic things that come into my head because the brain filter is slow.) This Sangha is perfect for those of us with social anxiety.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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Yes, thank you Jakuden gassho2

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

[Tai Shi]

What do I think of this Treeleaf, my Sangha? Recently I found another online group, and I've practiced with them a bit, and although they sit for up to two hours, I find myself dropping out after 45 minutes or so. This little Sangha does not have all the structure and high dignity of Treeleaf which I appreciate, And with Treeleaf there is the knowledge of linage, and the representation of contentedness with the Buddha. Even so there is some attraction with sitting with another group, and though I do not wear my Treeleaf Rakusu when sitting, I wear a beautiful meditation stole my wife brought me from Japan. This meditation stole immediately announced to the group that I practiced Zen, and other schools are allowed and encouraged with this small Group. I still have practiced sitting Shikantaza with both the small group and with Treeleaf, my Sangha, and alone. Instruction in Shikantaza sets us apart from other Sangha, and the full compliment of Dharma talks and formal teachings from Jundo and the Usuri (sp) make Treeleaf truly a wonderful place with many folks of diversity practicing and commenting on our Forum.

Now, to tell the truth, I like Jakuden, have some trouble with real live people because sometimes I wonder if I say the right things; I feel awkward in both practice settings, too, even though I attempt to compensate. I have bipolar disorder and pain related depression. Though Treeleaf has accepted me, still I wonder if my practice is good enough. Now I know that Jundo has said that any practice is good, (I assume he means attempts, and full making the mark of Shikantaza), and yet there is the implication that I am just a Lay Person, and priests are priests. I do love Treeleaf, and I give a little money each month trying to help out with all the technology needed to maintain our Sangha, and I assume somebody has to eat! So I intend to practice, still with the little Sangha while showing my full diligence with my real home group Treeleaf, observing Buddhist Traditions, and sitting with priests, and Zazenkai in person if I can get in, and recording as I am able. So from time to time I can sit with both groups. And what do folks think of this?

Tai Shi
std
Gassho

[Jundo]

Hi Tai Shi,

Sounds good!

Priests are lay folks who keep the lights on and the tables set in our little restaurant.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Suuko]

Greetings everyone,

In the last few months, I have been coming across a lot of material linked to Master Dogen and have been talking to Fuyu who runs the ZenBuddhism.net website. Just when I thought that I needed to expand on my practice, I met Jundo. I must say that I'm very grateful because this place is wonderful. Life is our temple. I'm having a very rough time at work and the shikantaza keeps me sane. LAH is something which has immersed in me completely-while driving, talking to people and while doing other activities. Thank you my brothers and sisters.

Much love to everyone,
Gassho,
Geerish.
ST/LAH.

[Tairin]

I like how this thread has evolved Great discussion.

I noticed that Domyo Burk added a Part 4 and 5 to her series so I updated my original post to include the links. Part 5 is particularly enlightening. I think it is natural to ask what is the benefit of the Sangha to the individual. Part 5 raises the very valid point of an individual's value to the Sangha. Take a look. http://brightwayzen.org/sangha-part-5-sangha-as-service/

It reminds me of the Kennedy quote “Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country.”

On a personal note thank you for making Treeleaf a sane and safe place to be.

Gassho
Warren
Sat today and LAH